Price Gouging
- Thread starter Tickle
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Luxury items? Am I the only one that finds it odd we speak of firearms and ammunition as things completely unlike food & water? Sure, food and water first, but to lump firearms/ammo into a category akin to flat-screen TVs and iPads seems silly. Of course there are people rushing to buy their 9th AR, but I'd be willing to bet that a large percentage of recents buyers are first-time buyers. It's not a luxury item to them...it's a right...and a threatened one. This will drive people to over-spend. To me, THAT is what makes this pricing spree un-ethical.
Who here thinks the typical buyer of $1/round of 5.56 is headed straight to the range to mag-dump his 1000rd 'luxury' purchase? Not likely. He's buying it to go with his new AR, for just-in-case moments. These aren't 'gun' people, so to say that 'they should've prepared earlier' misses the point. 'Gun guys' like ourselves aren't as easily gouged (loading components for the 2k rounds we'll need for this season's tac matches not withstanding)...we already had an emergency supply of firearms/ammo, so we're not buying.
I HAVE, however, been making note of the retailers taking advantage of these new buyers, and won't be dealing with them in the future. Sure, PV (or insert any other business still selling at pre-hysteria prices) has been getting their a$$e$$ kicked recently, but they could've just as easily run up the prices, sold less volume, and made same/more profit. Obviously whoever is calling the shots there felt something was wrong with that COA. That means something to me, and I choose to deal with companies run by people acting in line with an ethical conscience.
I disagree with the article linked by herofish. Its premise: Price-gouging doesn't really exist because if the price didn't increase proportionally with demand, the supply (gasoline in the article's example) would run out. This begs the question entirely. If it's priced beyond what some (who could afford it at normal price) are able to pay, then the supply has ALREADY run out for them. In essence, instead of first-come first-served, it's SOL for average Joe...you should've got a better-paying job. That IMO falls solidly into the lane of unethical.
Who here thinks the typical buyer of $1/round of 5.56 is headed straight to the range to mag-dump his 1000rd 'luxury' purchase? Not likely. He's buying it to go with his new AR, for just-in-case moments. These aren't 'gun' people, so to say that 'they should've prepared earlier' misses the point. 'Gun guys' like ourselves aren't as easily gouged (loading components for the 2k rounds we'll need for this season's tac matches not withstanding)...we already had an emergency supply of firearms/ammo, so we're not buying.
I HAVE, however, been making note of the retailers taking advantage of these new buyers, and won't be dealing with them in the future. Sure, PV (or insert any other business still selling at pre-hysteria prices) has been getting their a$$e$$ kicked recently, but they could've just as easily run up the prices, sold less volume, and made same/more profit. Obviously whoever is calling the shots there felt something was wrong with that COA. That means something to me, and I choose to deal with companies run by people acting in line with an ethical conscience.
I disagree with the article linked by herofish. Its premise: Price-gouging doesn't really exist because if the price didn't increase proportionally with demand, the supply (gasoline in the article's example) would run out. This begs the question entirely. If it's priced beyond what some (who could afford it at normal price) are able to pay, then the supply has ALREADY run out for them. In essence, instead of first-come first-served, it's SOL for average Joe...you should've got a better-paying job. That IMO falls solidly into the lane of unethical.
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nope. its basic supply and demand. I dont like the prices either but to call it unethical is crazy. Think of it like this, without the higher prices then there would be NONE of the commodity available to anyone. The natural resting point of any products price is balanced out. there will always be someone that is priced out. It may sound harsh, but yes some people will not be able to afford it. That is life. To hold something artificially low just encourages its waste and makes it so no one gets it. Better tha you have a chance at getting it, then it not existing at any price. Personally, I'd be almost happy to pay some "gouging" prices on primers and varget right now lol.
If there is a reasonable price period. With the new laws in Maryland that are expected to pass, they may never go down over here. I've been looking and savint to build a new AR for about a year but now I can't even find a stripped lower for less than $400.I would love to wait for prices to come down but if/when Maryland passes its liberal constrictions, I will have until October 2013 before my ability to purchase at all goes away. So do I pay the inflated price, or get it while I can? In an earlier reply, someone mentioned that the market, like fuel, may stay... This may just become the new norm.
When things to finaly calm down i think since the mfg's have started ramping production up they will over produce for a while and things will drop real nice ...and when that does happen all the hoarders will sell off what they bought to pay bills or buy a new tv or car and the people that waited will be rewarded for our patients ..... given the market sell of things that are sitting around you dont need and get stuff you do...I took advantage of the market sold my old upper and bcg and upgraded to a nice adams arms piston upper for less then what i sold my old dpms upper and bcg for
NO what I mean is the ones who grab all they can get and not think that maybe another guy might want a box of bullets or whatever.2008 was a great example of it when I seen guys going into Jerry's in Factoryville,PA hoarding everything they got their paws on...That just is plain selfish...I THINK ANYWAY...Sorry if it came off too strong...Here you can't even find a box of 22 rimfire ammo...
Ok, I get it. I've just seen a lot of posts in various threads excoriating anyone who would dare to buy more than 2 pounds or so of powder as being "hoarders." And here I am praying that PV will ship my 15 pounds of N570 so that maybe, if I go back to the .308 for a match or two, I'll have enough to get my new .338 through the summer. I guess I picked a bad time to jump into a new caliber.
Takes two to make a gouging.
Seems the ones crying foul are the ones caught without assuming things would always be available at affordable prices. I stay a couple years ahead. Been doing so for a couple of decades. If that makes me a hoarder..oh, well, send me a T-shirt; I'll wear it.
Seems the ones crying foul are the ones caught without assuming things would always be available at affordable prices. I stay a couple years ahead. Been doing so for a couple of decades. If that makes me a hoarder..oh, well, send me a T-shirt; I'll wear it.
Check these people out coderedfirearms.com, they are taking orders for stripped lowers for $149, with an estimated 12 wk lead time.
I didn't look to see if they have any restrictions or not, but check them out.
I bought a UCWRG.com, lower back in Nov., which is a mega lower. They are selling some in lots every now and then also, $175
Won't matter here in Kalifornia, after the Democrats pass their new gun control laws. We probably will not be able to reload anyway. You will only be allowed to have 500 rounds of ammo and each round will be taxed. They are about to destroy the gun industry in this state. We will be lucky if we are allowed to have a non-auto hand gun, a double barreled shotgun and a 30-30 lever action rifle.
This may go against the grain, but the suppliers are not the culprits here. Their prices are being driven by panic buying.
Stop and consider.
Suppose a supplier resists the temptation to boost prices. Very soon, their stock is gone and they have no way to continue serving their client base because resupply is problematic. At this point, they might as well close their doors because they are no longer in a position to sell anything, their stock is nonexistent.
Otherwise, the supplier who responds by keeping prices at a similar margin to their competitors is earning a profit, still has stock to sell, and can continue to employ their help and to serve their client base.
Suppliers did not cause this problem, and raising their prices actually places them in a position to survive this rash of panic buying.
Being the altruistic pushover serves nobody's needs, including the customers'.
This is the real impact of threats by the government to curtail commerce in firearms. It puts the buyers and sellers at each others' throats.
Exacting spite and revenge against suppliers only aids the Grabbists by sewing dissent amongst the ranks of suppliers and buyers in the firearms marketplace. Don't fall for their underhanded tactics.
To the OP:
You're not suffering here, you played a prudent hand in taking precautions before the election as a hedge against just the sort of panic that eventually followed. I can understand your outrage, but I also think that scolding suppliers for taking a defensive position against an uncertain future is not really very productive at all. All you're really doing is adding to their overhead of abuse and disrespect that really should be directed against the politicians who brought this all about. Don't let the Grabbists fuel resentment against the selfsame suppliers we count upon to be there when we need them.
To others:
Maybe hoarding is a good answer, maybe it isn't. I can't really offer any kind of advice on that. I do know this; when panic reigns, patience pays. Maybe I don't need to go shooting this weekend, and maybe the ammo I save that way will be more useful to me sometime in the future. At this stage, I can't rule out any eventuality; and in such times, I take the route of keeping my head down and my powder dry. Getting worked up about things I can't change simply distracts me from covering six. My family needs me to cover six.
Greg
Stop and consider.
Suppose a supplier resists the temptation to boost prices. Very soon, their stock is gone and they have no way to continue serving their client base because resupply is problematic. At this point, they might as well close their doors because they are no longer in a position to sell anything, their stock is nonexistent.
Otherwise, the supplier who responds by keeping prices at a similar margin to their competitors is earning a profit, still has stock to sell, and can continue to employ their help and to serve their client base.
Suppliers did not cause this problem, and raising their prices actually places them in a position to survive this rash of panic buying.
Being the altruistic pushover serves nobody's needs, including the customers'.
This is the real impact of threats by the government to curtail commerce in firearms. It puts the buyers and sellers at each others' throats.
Exacting spite and revenge against suppliers only aids the Grabbists by sewing dissent amongst the ranks of suppliers and buyers in the firearms marketplace. Don't fall for their underhanded tactics.
To the OP:
You're not suffering here, you played a prudent hand in taking precautions before the election as a hedge against just the sort of panic that eventually followed. I can understand your outrage, but I also think that scolding suppliers for taking a defensive position against an uncertain future is not really very productive at all. All you're really doing is adding to their overhead of abuse and disrespect that really should be directed against the politicians who brought this all about. Don't let the Grabbists fuel resentment against the selfsame suppliers we count upon to be there when we need them.
To others:
Maybe hoarding is a good answer, maybe it isn't. I can't really offer any kind of advice on that. I do know this; when panic reigns, patience pays. Maybe I don't need to go shooting this weekend, and maybe the ammo I save that way will be more useful to me sometime in the future. At this stage, I can't rule out any eventuality; and in such times, I take the route of keeping my head down and my powder dry. Getting worked up about things I can't change simply distracts me from covering six. My family needs me to cover six.
Greg
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I am not happy either even though I support free enterprise.
What it does do besides the inflationary effect is affect the supply.
Kinda hard to lower your costs with shipping or hazmat when if you actually do find something you need when you can't buy anything else to go with it ~ 'cause there ain't nothin' left.
What it does do besides the inflationary effect is affect the supply.
Kinda hard to lower your costs with shipping or hazmat when if you actually do find something you need when you can't buy anything else to go with it ~ 'cause there ain't nothin' left.
I am disappointed in Bruno's. I've purchased there before and shopping today I noticed their primer prices at 2x what I'd call "normal", then again they seem to be the only one of the usual suspects that has any in stock, I guess they found the pain threshold (2x normal+3 box minimum+hazmat shipping fee)
I was planning to shoot some service rifle this yr, but I don't usually reload 223 so I didn't have any small primers on the shelf. I'm set for everything else. If I can't find primers at a more reasonable price I'll just wait. I'll need to find some large primers before the end of the yr, but I'm not so worried about that yet.
I was planning to shoot some service rifle this yr, but I don't usually reload 223 so I didn't have any small primers on the shelf. I'm set for everything else. If I can't find primers at a more reasonable price I'll just wait. I'll need to find some large primers before the end of the yr, but I'm not so worried about that yet.
I actually appreciate the OP's message, I will not use the above mentioned vendors. The way I see it, a vendor sets his pricing according to a few key factors, what he is buying for, what his costs are for overhead and marketing, and shipping--to be included or calculated seperately--the shipping that is. What I don't find excusable is when a buying flurry occurs-like now-is that the supplier in consideration jacks up his pricing for a short-or extended-period. They have already 'set' what they feel is a 'fair' market price for said items, and it hasn't changed unless the mfg jacks up their price. Which I guess remains to be seen....
Apply that to every other aspect of your life. Hope you don't own anything powered by an internal combustion engine.
Roger that PKT1106. You either believe in freedom and the free market or you believe in subsidies and market manipulation. Hang out with lemmings and you are sure to go over the cliff. If all things remain constant right now the "good guys" selling at below market will be broke and out of business in the future through competition. Below market is charity, like it or not.
While I'm not a huge fan of the price gouging either... This is basic Economics at work: demand is freaking ridiculous, supply is lower than average, prices are also ridiculous. These prices will reduce once supply increases and demand decreases.
These price-gouging threads on the Hide always seem to come down to quasi-debates between those who focus on what ought to happen and those who focus on what will happen. But then in that case I don't see where there's actually much in the way of substantive debate. Can we not resolve most of this with the observation that "ought" and "is" are two very different words denoting equally different concepts? The fact that something will happen does not make it at all morally acceptable; the fact that something ought to happen does not make it at all likely.
Morally speaking, humans suck, sure. But none of us regard that as new information, do we?
Yours,
David
Morally speaking, humans suck, sure. But none of us regard that as new information, do we?
Yours,
David
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Who's to say what "Market' is right now. It seems the manufacturer's haven't really raised their prices, not certain of the usual 1st of year hike. If a few of the companies can sell at pre lanza prices, apparently the distibutors haven't raised the price.
Companies that sell at the lowest possible price, usually make their money in volume, and will continue to make money if the supply is there.
Agreed...it's should vs. do. However, you point this out like it should no longer ever be discussed since it is, historically speaking, a foregone conclusion that some moral compasses point south. The problem with that argument is only by pointing out a wrong will it remain such. Stop discussing it and it will slowly become acceptable. For example, maybe it's also a forgone conclusion that your teenage children will lie to you and do things you've expressly forbidden. Well, might as well stop wasting your breath on them and just accept it...right?
Come on people! When stuff is jacked up, you say "Hey, that's jacked up!" Some will continue, some may reevaluate. Either way, everyone continues to be aware of the difference, regardless of which path they choose.
Think about that last bit compared to who wants items when they may or may not be banned.
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Ok, I thought about it.
Just becuase CTD is getting 99 bucks for a pmag, doesn't make it market value. I just bought 40 20rd pmags for 14 dollars. To me that's market, becuase there's quite a few companies selling at that rate.
As for supply, supposedly Brownell's sold the largest amount of pmags after Dec 14th, so if Brownell's was getting say, 15% of Magpul inventory before this shitstorm, they will continue to recieve 15% in the future, which will ultimately drive the price down.
Before I have to write a 1 page essay on supply and demand, I was just qouting the guy who said, if you sell below market, you'll ultimately go out of business, I say BS.
Let the needy and unpreparred buy at inflated prices, I choose not to, and will remember in the future who had the inflated prices.
One other thing I've noticed on this forum, most of the people adamantly defending the price hikes are the same people trying to sell shit at inflated prices, whether here or on gun broker.
The HIDE has not stopped using the term "price gouging" or "gouging" but members who sell at inflated prices hoping to cash in on the situation are to be called "price puffers" like peter puffers only they are blowing up the prices.
People want to argue that the term "price gouging" is a made up phrase used by politicians so we are changing that.
While we frown on Price Puffers I recommend you avoid their ads and move on ... the Price Puffers go some where to sell their wares.
People want to argue that the term "price gouging" is a made up phrase used by politicians so we are changing that.
While we frown on Price Puffers I recommend you avoid their ads and move on ... the Price Puffers go some where to sell their wares.
If people are paying those prices, it is the market value. But no one said the market was static. The costs changes with the availability. Lots of places are selling them for $14, but you have to get on the back-order list.
Some people speculate that the items will be banned and are willing to pay a price to get them now. If they don't get banned, those people will lose value. If the item does get banned, it may increase the value. If you choose to get put on back-order and hope you get your mags, fine. That is your choice. Some people choose to get mags right now at an inflated price. That is their choice. Don't like it? Don't buy them now and hope they get delivered to you on the waiting list.
So, there is a market value of $99 for a PMAG to certain segments of the population. People who are needy and unpreparred are willing to pay more.
If they choose to try to sell their stuff at "inflated" prices (i use quotations because using the term "inflated" is relative to the various markets), that is between them and the buyer. Thats is just taking advantage of a seller market. Some retailers are choosing to keep selling for what we called a normal price ($13-$14 per mag), but if people are willing to buy at $25, $40 or even $99, then that is what the market is selling at for that particular item at the time.
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Eddie, if you consider me "bitchin", I beg to differ. I'm just stating facts as I "Perceive" them. I'm far from unpreparred, as for stating I bought 40 mags, I did but they were split 4 ways. I still have Vietnam era mags in sealed wrappers.
Lowlight, thanks again for having my back.
Spot on Lowlight...I started the thread just to warn fellow reloaders to stay away from the "price puffers" and the "price puffing" suppliers. That was the whole point of the thread....Nothing more. Your statement just drove my point home.
There is no such thing as price gouging, just people slow to the draw and people stupid enough to pay those prices. Everybody else is what you call "seasoned vets" and these people have ample stock to last them while they place orders at normal prices and wait to get those orders.
Shit.... just ran out of 175 SMK's and BR large rifle primers. Looks like I won't be shooting till fall. I expect my local shop or Gander to HOPEFULLY have bullets and primers back in stock by maybe... july?
I hate not shooting, but I wasn't "in" the sport back in 08 when shit went crazy, otherwise I would have bought more but... oh well.
Let those who want to pay more do so- its only money. Plus if shit hits the fan, its not like a piece of paper with a dead president will save your ass.
I hate not shooting, but I wasn't "in" the sport back in 08 when shit went crazy, otherwise I would have bought more but... oh well.
Let those who want to pay more do so- its only money. Plus if shit hits the fan, its not like a piece of paper with a dead president will save your ass.
Oh, no--no disagreement there; quite the contrary. The immorality of gougers' conduct is self-evident to me, as is the importance of publicly shaming them and warning others away from doing business with them. Pursuant to that, I think Frank's is one of the two best posts on here. Gougers no longer even seem to feel ashamed at being called gougers (though they're plenty defensive about it). But "price puffer"...well, that's beautiful. Only an oaf could take pride in being so labeled.
Yours,
David
I understand supply and demand and this is price gouging at it's finest. It's not like we can go someplace else and buy. Places like Brunos probably could give a shit less about half the customers that are buying from them now. They'll make more during these shortages with these margins then three years at competitive pricing.
The masses are asses and have very short memories, if you don't believe me you look at the nimrod politicians that keep getting voted back in.
An after all the dust settles and we get back to the so called "normal pricing" these gouging charlatans retailers will run a few sales or specials and everyone will forget being ripped off paying these ridiculous high prices....maybe I'm just cynical!
The masses are asses and have very short memories, if you don't believe me you look at the nimrod politicians that keep getting voted back in.
An after all the dust settles and we get back to the so called "normal pricing" these gouging charlatans retailers will run a few sales or specials and everyone will forget being ripped off paying these ridiculous high prices....maybe I'm just cynical!
You also have to consider option 2 for these companies a lot of these sellers if they sold at MSRP would have their entire stock cleared outwithin a week or less. Due to the massive demand resupply could be a ways out. They have their employees to think about if they sold their entire stock without the ability to resupply then they have employees with nothing to do while they wait months to get in new stock that will fly off their shelves again. By charging fair market value (what people are willing to pay) they are able to keep their shelves stocked.
This isnt price gouging as its not something necessary for your life. Charging $300 a case for water during a hurricane like katrinia was price gouging as it was necessary for contiuing life. The reality is reloading supplies and other shooting items are necessary for life. Although I wouldnt want to not have them around I wont for sure die in a week without them.
This isnt price gouging as its not something necessary for your life. Charging $300 a case for water during a hurricane like katrinia was price gouging as it was necessary for contiuing life. The reality is reloading supplies and other shooting items are necessary for life. Although I wouldnt want to not have them around I wont for sure die in a week without them.
I want to shoot and I don't want to wait months so I'll have to pay the prices to continue my hobby. No other alternatives. And I'm not bitter about it one bit. B3dlam makes valid points to consider.
L
L
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Yeah, I have a damn good memory when it comes to shit like this. Sure, some might give in and pay double or triple price to these classic assholes out of desperation, but not me. If they were the last shop on the planet where I could get supplies then I guess I simply wouldn't be getting any more supplies. They are now officially on my shit list right beside Cheaper than Dirt. Powder Valley, Widener's and Grafs are where I will remain (and have for many years).
I can only hope that this becomes a sticky and others will remember their greed in the near and distant future and skip right past their shit-ass site.
Well I hope they archive a bit of this cash all of these companies are raking in now because when the fires are all out and the smoke clears I hope the community turns deaf ears to all of them. I wonder how happy the employees will be when they don't have a job? I'll happily contribute to their demise. The beauty of this is that I have to do exactly the opposite - contribute nothing - to accomplish this task.
I can hear them now... "Oh, but that's the future... let's just worry about today".
Granted I am sitting quite nicely stocked for all common calibers, but it still pisses me off beyond belief that certain organizations like CTD and Bruno's choose to fuck and forget.
Its not just the stores that are doing this either. People are buying everything off the shelves and charging way more for them, especially relaoding items for the 223. I was looking for some 75gr AMAX's for a buddy, put up a WTB ad on another site, and recieved multiple PM's from guys who wanted $75 shipped for x2 100 count boxes of 75gr AMAX's, and then a guy that had a 600 count box wanting $150 shipped. As soon as everyone stops with their intent onm fucking the next guy, the stores shelves will start to grow again, but we need to stop paying the douche fucks that are buying stock just to rape us.
Precisely! Thanks SW, I should have also included private sellers in my rants as well
That's been my thought all along and if you think about pre 2008 ammo prices and those since, they really didn't come down much. A buck to a buck and a half for standard ammo. I think that if they aren't successful getting the guns, they'll make it so expensive that only the rich can afford to shoot. IMHO
Supply and demand.....Fear and greed.....drive the markets of anything. If you don't understand this watch a stock chart tick along and you'll start to understand. There's a thing called "smart money" and "dumb money". Bitch about it all you want, but it's not going to change human nature. If you missed out on getting in on this run before it took off, simply be patient. We can't tell other people what to do with their money, so if they stocked up on low prices....well, they were the smart money. If they want to now sell their stuff at the current prices, again, they are the smart money. Buy low, sell high. Prices will meet a point of resistance, as we can already see people saying, "this is ridiculous, I won't spend that much". Maybe the guys buying now absolutely need it. That is their prerogative. Maybe prices will stay inflated for a while, that means they've established support, but support zones don't last forever. As it was stated earlier, there are hoarders that have bought at very high prices and in the end they will end up selling at lower prices to fund a tv or pay bills etc. Maybe take comfort that ultimately they were the dumb money, aka, the bag holders.
Guys, I can understand the frustration of some who want to shoot and can't find components, etc. I am looking for the parts I need to finish my latest AR build. Truth is, I can find them, but I have been unwilling to pay the prices needed to procure them. I don't think those selling are gouging though. You can make moral arguments if you wish, but that's a bit of a head-scratcher for me.
It seems strange to me that so many here, who are rightfully active in voicing their defense of our 2nd amendment, forget that a free market economy is an equally important part of the America they are trying to defend. Just how much profit should a person be limited to? Who gets to decide?
It seems strange to me that so many here, who are rightfully active in voicing their defense of our 2nd amendment, forget that a free market economy is an equally important part of the America they are trying to defend. Just how much profit should a person be limited to? Who gets to decide?
