Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

[Wannashootit]

I had a guy at the range ask me if I'd cleaned the primer pockets on my reloads.

Nope, I said- never. I use a progressive press- just doesn't fit into the scheme of things.

Never had an issue with loose primer pockets, either- and I've got some brass with 8 firings on them.

I know there's a continuum between being just being anal about things and "real-world", tangible, and statistically significant differences.

I'm not asking who cleans their primer pockets, or how often- because I know there's many like me (never) and guys that meticulously clean them every reload.

My question is- has there ever been a <span style="font-weight: bold">real</span> study done to see if this actually makes a difference, or are there too many other variables involved to make a true study?

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

I belong to a club where there is a lot of bench rest shooters shoot and all the BR matches in North Texas are held, they all clean there pockets, uniform primer seating depth is critical in there eyes, so in precision ammo I do it, in blasting ammo I don't.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

I'm in the habit of cleaning the pocket before seating another primer. I do not know if I have ever prevented a misfire or helped my accuracy, but I feel a lot better knowing that I'm not seating a new, clean primer in a dirty pocket. I look it it the same way as I might reach for a clean glass for my beer, rather than using the one that had some milk in it. If I were blind, I probably wouldn't notice, but I'm not blind, and I don't like it. Call me anal. BB

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

The only tool I have to clean primer pockets is the Primer Pocket uniformer--that is right, the one that cuts the primer pocket to a specified depth.

A) do I get clean pockets--yes
B) does it make an accuracy difference--don't know
C) does cutting the pocket decrease brass life-not that I can tell! I have a set of cases with 30+ reload cycles on them stiff load 47.8 gr Varget pushing 155 scenars and I have not lost a single primer pockket yet.

 

[cotntop]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

I use to clean primer pockets and started using SS media and now do not have to worry. All my BR buddies clean and believe very strongly with no data.

 

[X-fan]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

To me it is more a matter of being thorough and making sure the gun goes bang every time.
I have seen lots of guys have misfires due to sloppy reloading practices...I have yet to have one ammunition related misfire....In over 30 years of reloading.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

"..has there ever been a real study done to see if this actually makes a difference, or are there too many other variables involved to make a true study?"

I have and I'm sure others have. I find no difference and suspect that's true for others too. What I'm certain of is if there was any valid difference we would see it, along with tables of the average effects, in every reloading manual ... but we don't see that, do we? So - I'm quite sure cleaning primer pockets is meaningless, at least to most of us.

I do it anyway.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

Thanks...guess I'll continue to pass...

I have a Lee decapping die, so I suppose I could just decap all the brass (typically 6 different rifle calibers each range trip), clean them and then lube and run them through the press as usual. But we go through 500 rounds or so per month so I'm not inclined to make more work than necessary.

I'm already struggling with the concept of ditching the powder drop because of the variations of up to .2 or .3 grains I sometimes get. I'm damn sure that's got more effect on accuracy than cleaning the primer pockets. We used to only shoot up to 200 meters. But now that we're shooting 600-1000, if I can tighten up that consistency by just 1/4 minute...it might mean a "hit", instead of a "miss"

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

just shot my best string ever (199-11X)at 500 yds in an Fclass match with 4 times fired uncleaned win brass. I don't worry anymore

 

[X-fan]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

There is no question you will see an increase in velocity variation the dirtier the primer pockets get...While I have no hard data I guaranty (5-10 firings later) at 600 yards it will be more than a 1/4 minute.

It was mentioned before, but (if you are pressed for time) at 500 rounds per month you should be investing in stainless media cleaning system....Which will look after the primer pockets for you...Even if you just cleaned every 3-4 firings or so.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no question you will see an increase in velocity variation the dirtier the primer pockets get...While I have no hard data I guaranty (5-10 firings later) at 600 yards it will be more than a 1/4 minute.

It was mentioned before, but (if you are pressed for time) at 500 rounds per month you should be investing in stainless media cleaning system....Which will look after the primer pockets for you...Even if you just cleaned every 3-4 firings or so. </div></div>

There you go! That's proof enough for me. Case closed. BB

PS Except, and with apologies to Xfan. That is the weakest argument for stainless steel polishing media I have heard, as yet.

edit: insert smilie

 

[Conrad]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...That is the weakest argument for stainless steel polishing media I have heard, as yet...</div></div>

So what are the stronger arguments besides possibly lower media cost over the course of time? Just askin because the main reason I chose to mess with STM is a quick way to clean primer pockets to "like new". Even then I have to wonder about my neck tension variability, etc.

427Cobra made an interesting comment in another post regarding imperfectly cleaned brass(corncob or walnut in a vibratory tumbler) shot better...would be great to hear some elaboration on that given sometimes I think its possible bullets seat a little more uniformly in seating pressure with unsqueaky clean brass....wondering if this is what he was alluding to or if I'm off in left field.

Thanks.
Conrad

 

[X-fan]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There you go! That's proof enough for me. Case closed. BB

PS Except, and with apologies to Xfan. That is the weakest argument for stainless steel polishing media I have heard, as yet.

edit: insert smilie

</div></div>
LOL!
I spake the unspeakable

For the record Buzz is NOT a fan of Stainless Media!

So given my (weak and completely unenlightening) recommendation for STM let me retract and offer it as a possibility for your consideration.
..ONLY....Following exhaustive searching and reading as to both the positives and negatives of STM.

A sufficiently painful and epic quantity of quality time must be amassed and equally presented to the evaluation of each of the sometimes diametrically opposed viewpoints.
You will then be given a test and pending authorization from His Lord almighty you will be qualified for a green light on a STM purchase.

MAY GOD REST YOUR SOUL (for I am sure Buzz will not) should you venture to the dark side.

Better Buzz?

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

Warning: don't read this if you are going to get your panties in a wad.

I find it amusing, all these years laboring in total darkness without the benefits of ultra polishing my cases with stainless steel media. I suppose some still spitshine their boots every morning? We used to melt candlewax into the leather and spend hours polishing stuff and starching tailored uniforms. Sounds like I'm off topic, but it cured me of polishing shit, in civilian life. Especially cartridge cases? "Clean" is as far as I will go.

Building water tight drums and fabricating rollers and motors and using the correct cap full of the correct sudsy stuff and the drying chamber and then inspecting flash holes, preferably in a laminar cleanroom with air locks.... it's something I (gosh) never knew I needed, before?

Actually, I'm just poking fun, (live and let live) but I have learned that those birds that perform these rituals have absolutely no sense of humor about their passion for brilliant ultra polished cartridge cases. I'm advised to tread lightly, and so it is.
BB

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Warning: don't read this if you are going to get your panties in a wad.

I find it amusing, all these years laboring in total darkness without the benefits of ultra polishing my cases with stainless steel media. I suppose some still spitshine their boots every morning? We used to melt candlewax into the leather and spend hours polishing stuff and starching tailored uniforms. Sounds like I'm off topic, but it cured me of polishing shit, in civilian life. Especially cartridge cases? "Clean" is as far as I will go.

Building water tight drums and fabricating rollers and motors and using the correct cap full of the correct sudsy stuff and the drying chamber and then inspecting flash holes, preferably in a laminar cleanroom with air locks.... it's something I (gosh) never knew I needed, before?

Actually, I'm just poking fun, (live and let live) but I have learned that those birds that perform these rituals have absolutely no sense of humor about their passion for brilliant ultra polished cartridge cases. I'm advised to tread lightly, and so it is.
BB
</div></div>
No sweat from me. I like them clean and if you find something that is fast and cleans well you go with it. Will it make you a better shot? Highly unlikely. But it is kinda nice to have new looking ammo to shoot. Some people leave their clothes on the floor until wash time, some use a basket or hamper. Same difference.

 

[CSS]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

The reason I went the SS media route was not for primer pockets, but get the carbon off before annealing.
Carbon acts as a heat shield according to the annealer litature and prevents even annealing.

I really hate playing with the water to get clean cases.

Since starting the SS media and annealing I shot my best F Class score ever, 197-8x at 1000.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

Agreed, once I didn't need a cell phone, now I do. (I think?)

When those hard asses at the range start making fun of me, I might see the need? But, since my wife died, I'll have you know, I pick up my own clothes. BB

 

[Rthur]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

I like to clean them, do I see a advantage from this, i dunno. However it makes seating my primers easier for the next load. YMMV

btw- I haven't had a squib or ftf in 25+ years of reloading

 

[Iamironman]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

I've been reloading for over 20 years now, and I have never cleaned primer pockets, and I don't plan on starting any time soon either.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

Neither have I, (edit: failure) since 1968. Add it up. They last a long time, but I still manage to wear out the little RCBS tool cleaning my primer pockets.

Pretty soon, somebody will demand proof that picking up one's clothes will improve his love life. Some things we cannot document, yet some things just seem logical. BB

 

[doc76251]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

I actually did a test a few years back of each individual step that I did for reloading (including the ones I don't do now).

Scientific....no.

Based on observations of combining various steps and each step alone. It was based on a previously good load that had a tendency to toss unaccounted for flyers every now and again which was the center of the investigation.

I'm too beat right now to go into all the steps but "Cleaning" primer pockets did squat. REAMING (Uniforming) pockets helped to some degree with uniform ES's and consistent groups.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

It is all about cumulative error reduction.

 

[boltgunluvr]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

It is important for benchrest, but for the person that just wants to blast some rounds, not so much. Remember, some of the benchrest cartridges can be sensitive to such things.

 

[X-fan]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Warning: don't read this if you are going to get your panties in a wad.

I find it amusing, all these years laboring in total darkness without the benefits of ultra polishing my cases with stainless steel media. I suppose some still spitshine their boots every morning? We used to melt candlewax into the leather and spend hours polishing stuff and starching tailored uniforms. Sounds like I'm off topic, but it cured me of polishing shit, in civilian life. Especially cartridge cases? "Clean" is as far as I will go.

Building water tight drums and fabricating rollers and motors and using the correct cap full of the correct sudsy stuff and the drying chamber and then inspecting flash holes, preferably in a laminar cleanroom with air locks.... it's something I (gosh) never knew I needed, before?

Actually, I'm just poking fun, (live and let live) but I have learned that those birds that perform these rituals have absolutely no sense of humor about their passion for brilliant ultra polished cartridge cases. I'm advised to tread lightly, and so it is.
BB
</div></div>

I like it when guys have different opinions...makes me think.
That you beat that dead horse senseless was good for a few laughs while you were at it.

My personal experience with STM is both great and well...OK.

Great in high volume stuff involving hundreds of cases.
Fantastic at high volume pistol.
Not so good at low volume counts....I don't bother.

Finally, given the way it peens the necks of my carefully blueprinted 6mmbr brass I would rate it as a bare pass for ultra precision bench/F-Class stuff. It is definitely usable so long as you turn down the time it spends working in the tumbler.

I could care less about the shine factor.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

One of the members has graciously offered to run a real-world test, utilizing a machine that measures internal ballistics.

Way cool of him to do this...

We will see if there are any statistically significant differences in total energy, time to peak pressure, efficiency, etc.

I will post the results of the findings after they are forwarded to me.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, and have a lot of learning to do myself so that I'm adequately educated in order to interpret the data.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

love the guys who says it helps with no hard data.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

Well, it wasn't me, Amigo. I clean my primer pockets because it makes me feel good.

I have zero confidence in measuring a unique isolated and inert factor such as a dirty primer pocket's effect on anything. If you have no faith, don't do it.

On the other hand, as meticulous as my handloading is, it seems incongruous to seat a fresh primer in a blackened crusty and extremely dirty pocket. I seldom/never do casual plinking, so maybe there is room in the tent for some sloppy utilitarian re loading. BB

PS Eric; there are just as many that claim it <span style="text-decoration: underline">doesn't help</span> with no hard data.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
PS Eric; there are just as many that claim it <span style="text-decoration: underline">doesn't help</span> with no hard data. </div></div>

Not up to us non-believers to prove a negative because you can't prove a negative.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

I bet you were captain of the debate team?

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bet you were captain of the debate team?

</div></div>

I like to call it the "discussion team". However, they too kicked Cartmann off once I started having "discussions" with them.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

Also it's third grade logic. It is not up to me to prove that the Easter Bunny does NOT exist. Because it's third grade logic!

I am also open to the idea that primer pocket cleaning helps, it's just that I have not seen any concrete evidence that it does. From my own findings, I am concluding it does not help one bit.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

Does it help, I don't know? Wiping your ass might not help, but it is logical. BB

My friend; about Mom. Is she single? Will you handle the introductions?

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does it help, I don't know? Wiping your ass might not help, but it is logical. BB

My friend; about Mom. Is she single? Will you handle the introductions? </div></div>

Wiping your ass will help the bullet go straigter. Wade Boggs only ate Chicken before a game, that seemed to help him hit better (so he believed). Scientific? probably not.. but hey it works! and as long as you believe it works, that is fine.

Yes my mom is single, she is 75 years old though, so some of the parts might be sagging. Send me a pic, and I will see if she approves.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

So tempting, please give her my best, K?

It is difficult to understand why anybody would argue for NOT cleaning a primer pocket. Vacuuming a carpet, washing dishes, your car, and so many other items that nobody disputes or requires some type of proof before lifting a finger.

Basic stubbornness, hard to figure those with a contrary nature and it's always difficult to change their mind, much less get one to concede a point, (however obvious) and so....

I give up. Have a nice day. BB

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning- any real world data?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So tempting, please give her my best, K?

It is difficult to understand why anybody would argue for NOT cleaning a primer pocket. Vacuuming a carpet, washing dishes, your car, and so many other items that nobody disputes or requires some type of proof before lifting a finger.

Basic stubbornness, hard to figure those with a contrary nature and it's always difficult to change their mind, much less get one to concede a point, (however obvious) and so....

I give up. Have a nice day. BB </div></div>


I like clean carpets and clean cars too, not sure if clean carpets makes the car go straighter or faster though. Don't tell me you have scientific proof cleaning my cars carpets will make it go faster??? I would love to see this scientific report.