Suppressors PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

[Silenced America]

Lets face it, the NFA/Title II (especially suppressor) world is growing exponentially. At the bottom of this post will be results of my FOIA request. At the time of my request there were 12 examiners. In November 2011 there will be 9. The record numbers that were reached in FY 10 were broken in June of FY 11. FY 11 ends tomorrow, 9/30/11. There will be over 50k Form 4s processed in FY11.

By my calculations the NFA Branch will process in excess of 150k forms (1-4). They will take in over $10million in revenue from Form 4s. This does not include Form 1s and SOTs. I think they will be in excess of $15million. That is for 10 examiners this year and 9 next. 150k forms equals to about 63 forms that need to be processed daily per examiner just to stay afloat. That includes ensuring trusts are legit, fingerprints are good to go, forms are filled out correctly, data is entered into the system, answering phone calls, etc. etc.

Speaking with the folks at the NFA, they believe that wait times are about to increase substantially. I don't say these things to scare people or keep people from purchasing. I believe in being honest with the customer. This is a problem for all of us NFA loving people. It makes me sick that 10 people can generate $15 mil (yes, I know there are a few data entry specialists and secretaries) and they cannot hire more people because there isn't any more money. WTF? All of our money is probably being re-appropriated to some Harlem crack house or some solar company like solyndra. It is BS and it pisses me off.

What we do? I am tired of hearing "nothing." I also know that you don't poke Uncle Sugar with a stick unless you want it taken away and used to bludgeon you to death. Thin ice? Ideas welcome. If you want to tell me to STFU and quit whining, well, I welcome that too. I am just not the type to pay $1000 annually in SOT fees, transfer a few cans per year to my trust, and then have to take it in the backside all while I sit idly by.


FOIA

 

[skinney_7]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

agree with everything you said... the wait for me is now 6-7 months up from 2 months the past few years on form 4's, wouldn't mind getting rid of that pesky paper work to kill the wait time, IMHO a suppressor is not a weapon, sure it goes on a weapon, but what can a lil guy do... sad when the atf can "hand over" weapons to drug runners, but we have to do all this to acquire a safe hearing method... if you still think we are free, think again my friend cause its gonna get worse, before it gets better.

 

[colt933]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

The statistics you seek are published from time to time in Small Arms Review magazine. Anyone interested in NFA/Title II items owes it to themselves to subscribe to this publication.

I receive no compensation from SMALL ARMS REVIEW

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

It also was broken down by states on how many transfers they actually do. From memory, TX has as many transfers as the next 2 states combined.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I have way too many cans, if that can be possible.

You just have to put the paperwork in and forget about it until the shop calls. If I hit a mark I might call the branch to check because I have had paperwork clear with no stamp arriving for months and months. In fact I have had replacement paperwork sent before the actual paperwork showed up. So other than making sure that doesn't happen, thinking about only makes it worse.

Get it in, and move on... they will clear it.

 

[Silenced America]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have way too many cans, if that can be possible.

You just have to put the paperwork in and forget about it until the shop calls. If I hit a mark I might call the branch to check because I have had paperwork clear with no stamp arriving for months and months. In fact I have had replacement paperwork sent before the actual paperwork showed up. So other than making sure that doesn't happen, thinking about only makes it worse.

Get it in, and move on... they will clear it. </div></div>

I could not agree more. The problem is that this is a service that we all pay for. Like you explain with your paperwork, I have had countless Form 3s lost. I have had to get replacement Form 4s. There will always be a wait, but they should at least be able to hire to meet the demand...you know, just like any successful business does. But we are talking about da gubbamint.

 

[BookHound]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

If silencer manufacturers really want to increase sales, this is the area on which they should focus. Some of the bigger manufacturers are actively working to get suppressors legalized in states that currently ban them and also working to lift hunting restrictions so hunters may start using suppressors for game animals. While these are important issues to address and I commend them for their efforts, the bigger impact I believe would be on reducing transfer times. The terrible wait times are a huge deterrent to many potential customers, especially first-time buyers.

Honestly, there is no reason transfers should take this long. Suppressors should be treated like any firearm purchase. Leave the tax, but let the customer walk into the shop, pass a background check and walk out with his item. The current transfer process makes no sense to me and does nothing to deter potential criminal activity. To keep up with the registry simply require SOTs to submit a monthly or quarterly report to NFA Branch and then let them do their data entry. If you really wanted it done right, the on-line NICS system could easily be tied to the NFA registry DB. An SOT could process a transfer through that system and have the DB updated automatically.

And if you REALLY want it done right...

There should be no examiners. The Manufacturer should log into a secure system to enter their Form 2s. The confirmation should be immediate. The manufacturer could then through the same system select an actively licensed SOT and submit a Form 3. The confirmation should be immediate. The items could be placed in a box the same day and shipped. Transfers between any SOT should be handled that way. By eliminating the human element at the NFA Branch you should achieve a higher degree of accuracy within the database.

This isn't rocket science stuff. This is simple database and web page stuff. I could design and implement a system for the ATF within three months. It would save the tax payers dollars (on salaries), increase government revenues, and improve the level of data integrity.

But hey, that makes too much darn sense. Easier to keep things paper driven on a cycle measured in MONTHS instead of nanoseconds.

Sorry for rambling. The IT architect in me gets its nerves rubbed raw on this issue.

Thanks for sharing your information, Scott.

Mark

 

[Tamu98]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I really wish they would hire a few more people. I thought that this administration was trying to create more jobs, not get rid of them. If they cut back from 12 to 9 people, does that translate to a 33% increase in wait time. Unlike Lowlight, I'm waiting on my first cans (Osprey and Sparrow from Scott and a Shark from David) and the wait sucks.

As an aside, Scott at Silenced America is GTG. You will be hard pressed to beat his prices and he doesn't charge to do transfers for the suppressors you buy from him. If you can beat his price, but need him to do the transfer, I think he only charges $50.

 

[KYS]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I have a lot of suppressors. A lot of time involved with that side of the shooting world. The best thing to do is get the paperwork sent in and work on something else. I often spend the down time shooting my current builds or wrenching on my diesel truck project.

But for what we pay and at nearly 9 million dollars a year. You THINK they would be able to put stamps on paperwork a little quicker then what they are doing now. I remember when it was 5-7 weeks for form 1's and I had form 4's hitting 3-4 weeks door to door back in 2008.

 

[Silenced America]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

Bookhound, you are spot on. The federal government has a paperwork reduction act...so why don't they move to going digital and reduce paper use? Apply logic to government principles and you will lose your hair. I see the NFA office as a dark dungeon filled with filing cabinents and some old dude with Buddy Holly glasses filing paperwork that continues to stack up on him. It is like shoveling shit in a livestock feed yard...the job will never end. They have these neat things in today's age called electronic databases.

 

[Early Cuyler]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I'd love it if the process was as simple as purchasing a firearm. I'd buy a number of suppressors then. However, due to the wait times and red tape involved, I will not be buying one any time soon.

It always sounds like a good idea to go digital, but if their record keeping requirements are anything like the NRC's and 10CFR50 Appendix B it is really involved. To use digital records, some utilities are required to have two separate databases backed up at least daily. And by "two separate" I mean two dedicated fireproof, earthquake proof, flood proof, humidity, temperature, lighting controlled buildings to store dedicated servers of QA data. And if hardcopies are required to be kept and maintained that just ups the ante.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd love it if the process was as simple as purchasing a firearm. I'd buy a number of suppressors then. However, due to the wait times and red tape involved, I will not be buying one any time soon.

It always sounds like a good idea to go digital, but if their record keeping requirements are anything like the NRC's and 10CFR50 Appendix B it is really involved. To use digital records, some utilities are required to have two separate databases backed up at least daily. And by "two separate" I mean two dedicated fireproof, earthquake proof, flood proof, humidity, temperature, lighting controlled buildings to store dedicated servers of QA data. And if hardcopies are required to be kept and maintained that just ups the ante. </div></div>

That shouldn't be too hard to setup.

I know people that take care of servers that do millions of transactions and move around petabytes of information a day. Several hundred thousand or several million transactions a year shouldn't be too hard to manage.

 

[KYS]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

So in 2010 just by crude math your looking at almost 45,500 approved pieces of paperwork? That is not a lot of transactions for a government entity covering our nations gun enthusiasts. I thought it would have been a lot more at the pace they keep.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

It's funny you introduce this topic and I noticed it now, after having just visited this topic here:

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/nfa-talk/184601-petition-repeal-nfa-act.html

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My response on page 2:

John I think you have a good concept. The 72 signatures show that it isn't popular enough, or advertisable enough to get wind in its sails.

Here's an idea:

Revise the goals to something that is attainable, like NFA process reform (IE a request for a process that instead of taking $200 and 3-7 months via paperwork is like the NICS check system [electronic and immediate or less than one week in most cases]. Maybe add a clause about suppressor tube replacement by the original manufacturer in the event of damage, tax free.

Even a petition for suppressor ownership in 50 states)

The current administration isn't going to be receptive to anything involving the word "automatic weapons".

If you did put this sort of thing together you could contact the owners of AAC, Gemtech, SWR, SilencerCo, Knights Armament Co, Griffin Armament, and others and we could post the petition to our facebook feeds.

AAC and Gemtech have ~8000 members. We have nearly 3000, SWR also. This gives you a fighting chance to get 5000 names for something that has a chance of accomplishing something.

Maybe after you get administration change, revisit the topic of the machine gun ban.

This is just a suggestion, but I think your concept is good, and the plan just needs slight modification to be something that will actually get 5000 signatures. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">The older generation will laugh, but Facebook is power, and the silencer industry has contact and a means of putting the link out to between 8,000 and 25,000 people using facebook alone.

The whole middle east had issues with people uprising this summer and where did that start? Some of the government uprisings were started on Facebook. </span>

 

[HPLLC]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/...vilian/j145nBpM

In case you miss the point, there is a place to put together an online petition to the white house.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I don't know how much the other companies care about the collective good, but I volunteer to post a well assembled petition into my facebook page news feed.

The other companies would be wise to follow

This year has been a joke with regard to the ATF efficacy. We've been calling the lady who handles SOT's several times a day here and there for weeks without getting ahold of her.

My thought was wow... this lady is unreachable. Well maybe she's just that busy? Maybe they need 5 people like her? </span>

 

[Silenced America]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In case you miss the point, there is a place to put together an online petition to the white house.

I don't know how much the other companies care about the collective good, but I volunteer to post a well assembled petition into my facebook page news feed.

</div></div>

This is what I know. Big Green has in some way or another started the American Silencer Association (ASA). I am not a member, but as soon as they allow for membership from folks other than manufacturers and distributors, I will be. ASA has been to DC and I believe from the scuttle butt that they have lobbyist. From my initial understanding at Silencer Shoot and some gossip later on I heard that the main objective was to reduce the tax on silencers from $200 to $5. Personally, I don't think that we are at the time and place to make that happen. The government is broke and they want all of the money that they can get.

If we throw this in the face of some stupid politician who has seen one too many hollyweird movies where silencers are only used by hitmen...well. It is a sensitive subject, but it is millions in tax revenue too. Most of these eletist on the Hill are unaware that silencers are even legal. That is a good thing. I cannot imagine some anti-gunners reactions. The DOJ is obviously anti-gun.

Petitions are fine, but I think that NFA folks within states should get them going and lobby their elected representitive and senators. I agree with the Facebook approach. It is the most powerful marketing tool on the planet and it is free. AAC, Gemtech, and SilencerCo use FB very effectively, but I think (hope) that they all understand the sensitivity of this issue. This is another reason we need Perry in the WH. He is the most pro-gun candidate running.

So, GA, can we come up with a way to do this within our respective states first? I think we NFA folks need to put our heads together collectively and figure this out. ASA needs to hurry the hell up with whatever it is that they are doing and open up for membership. The NRA is not really on board. They like Title II, but they are not going to support it like they will other things. They think that it is best kept hush hush.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I heard that there is a one eyed martian bipolar alcoholic midget who prints the stamps for the NFA branch and the ink has to be extracted from a live giant squid while it's giving birth. It's all very complicated and time consuming which is what slows everything down.

 

[skinney_7]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I heard that there is a one eyed martian bipolar alcoholic midget who prints the stamps for the NFA branch and the ink has to be extracted from a live giant squid while it's giving birth. It's all very complicated and time consuming which is what slows everything down. </div></div>
well that would be about par.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

The BATFE is a federal agency. The white house would be the right place to go. Obviously the government knows silencers are legal. They oversee the BATFE. <This is not a low key cloak and dagger operation like the massive Dept of homeland security. The BATF is pretty mainstream / household name / compartmentalized and a small operation really capable of effective oversight with minimal effort.

If the issue is a need for jobs why would the Obama administration not want to do something? They want to say they created jobs so much they paid $534million to a solar pannel company to create 139 jobs. These are jobs we need, and the BATFE has taken major attention just recently for their issues which have resulted in some oversight so this issue is kind of a hot topic right now. People agree that it isn't a smooth ship.

<span style="font-weight: bold">What's my point? Why work with a lobbyist when we can just write a petition speaking to the obvious lack of efficacy at the ATF preventing maximized revenue and growth, the need for more jobs, the obvious revenue the agency generates, and how more jobs and a revision to the antiquated paperwork system can put more money in the federal tax system. </span>

Of course we can't get the gov't to lower taxes. Obama is like prince John- he wants to spend more money (ATF jobs) and he wants to tax people the same (or higher if they are rich). So we don't speak about lowering taxes now [leave that issue for later] For now we fight for NFA branch process reform. That would be amazing in and of itself.

I'm calling a lady 35 times to get her on the phone one time. I mean this isn't a hard argument to make.

In three and a half years of business the ATF lost one form. In the next (read as last) 12 months the BATF lost three forms and one memorandum. We had one memorandum take 12 months to be approved. The accuracy of the record keeping has begun to be effected by the lack of manpower. The govt probably cares about this problem. They want an accurate system and 63 forms a day per examiner isn't going to maintain that accuracy.

$5 is tomorrows problem. Today we need what we've needed for 15 years- a modernized NFA approval process that doesn't involve mailed paperwork.

 

[BookHound]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd love it if the process was as simple as purchasing a firearm. I'd buy a number of suppressors then. However, due to the wait times and red tape involved, I will not be buying one any time soon.

It always sounds like a good idea to go digital, but if their record keeping requirements are anything like the NRC's and 10CFR50 Appendix B it is really involved. To use digital records, some utilities are required to have two separate databases backed up at least daily. And by "two separate" I mean two dedicated fireproof, earthquake proof, flood proof, humidity, temperature, lighting controlled buildings to store dedicated servers of QA data. And if hardcopies are required to be kept and maintained that just ups the ante. </div></div>

That shouldn't be too hard to setup.

I know people that take care of servers that do millions of transactions and move around petabytes of information a day. Several hundred thousand or several million transactions a year shouldn't be too hard to manage. </div></div>

I used to design systems that are still in use by over 90% of the banks in North America. We're talking MASSIVE amounts of extremely sensitive data. I agree with you, Bacarrat, this isn't very difficult. Oh sure, there are always challenges but nothing that cannot be overcome using solutions already proven in other government, banking and military applications. In fact, the type of system the ATF would need is pretty miniscule compared to a lot of other systems already implemented.

Mark

 

[Silenced America]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I don't think that the NFA or suppressors are cloak and daggar. When I say representitives and senators, I mean those that represent your state in DC. Title II is far from mainstream. 50k transfers a year is not a lot. Hell, Buds Guns probably does that monthly.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$5 is tomorrows problem. Today we need what we've needed for 15 years- a modernized NFA approval process that doesn't involve mailed paperwork.</div></div>


This is absolutely TRUE. I just want to make sure that we aren't poking a stick at a sleeping bear.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BookHound</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I used to design systems that are still in use by over 90% of the banks in North America. We're talking MASSIVE amounts of extremely sensitive data. I agree with you, Bacarrat, this isn't very difficult. Oh sure, there are always challenges but nothing that cannot be overcome using solutions already proven in other government, banking and military applications. In fact, the type of system the ATF would need is pretty miniscule compared to a lot of other systems already implemented.

Mark </div></div>

They could use the NICS check system as the model for form 4's.

Dealer to dealer transfers should be immediate and without approval required. A computer system for checking valid licenses could be made for SOT's to access themselves. If form 3's didn't require approval we could still have form 3's in files without them. This would reduce 1-2 months of process time alone.

I'm sure the caseload for NFA branch would improve.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silenced America</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think that the NFA or suppressors are cloak and daggar. When I say representitives and senators, I mean those that represent your state in DC. Title II is far from mainstream. 50k transfers a year is not a lot. Hell, Buds Guns probably does that monthly.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$5 is tomorrows problem. Today we need what we've needed for 15 years- a modernized NFA approval process that doesn't involve mailed paperwork.</div></div>


This is absolutely TRUE. I just want to make sure that we aren't poking a stick at a sleeping bear. </div></div>

Silencers are not the politically incorrect items they were in the past. They are in 4 ads in every gun magazine on the news stand.

I don't think poking a sleeping bear is possible. Three states this year became NFA states- the product is going mainstream.

The correct way to approach the issue is from the angle of government agency reform.

We don't approach as X industry looking for improved ___.

We say this agency is understaffed, broken, and it's process antiquated and needs to be fixed and we reccommend X Y and Z. (the signers of the petition are not industry people they are concerned citizens. That doesn't mean an industry person like yourself would not be the drafter of the petition to be signed. Tax payers are paying money, they deserve quality service in a reasonable time frame. CCW permits are 4-6 weeks. NFA form 4 approvals even in 4-6 weeks would be a miracle compared to 3-6 months.

 

[John L]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I have wanted to know:

What is it they (BATFE) is looking into when they do a background check for a MG or supressor that is different than getting a CPL. If I can get that process done in a month why not a Form 4 in the same time.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John L</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have wanted to know:

What is it they (BATFE) is looking into when they do a background check for a MG or supressor that is different than getting a CPL. If I can get that process done in a month why not a Form 4 in the same time. </div></div>

As I understand the process (which could be correct or not),
1 the paperwork goes to Atlanta where the ATF cashes checks. (7-21 days here [mail/sorting/backlog/waiting for checks to clear]).
2 the paperwork gets put in a pile until ATF has a freight load of mail (2-4 weeks)
3 Mail is then trucked to Martinsburg (the NFA branch) [2 days]
4 Mail hits a sorting room at martinsburg and is sorted [3-14days]
5 Mail hits the examiners mailbox where it might sit for 2-4 weeks
6 fingerprint cards and passport photos get sent to the FBI? [1 week to get there and get sorted,3-4 weeks to process the background check]
7 fingerprint cards come back to martinsburg (1 week mail and sorting)
8 examiner approves paperwork and returns mail to SOT (14 days).

That's 22 weeks divide by 4 and you're at 5.5 months. It's actually taking ~6 months for individual form 4's so I've obviously been optimistic.

 

[mavrick10_2000]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Silencers are not the politically incorrect items they were in the past. They are in 4 ads in every gun magazine on the news stand.
</div></div>

To the general populace (hand wringers) they are very politically incorrect, with comments like mob hits, increased gang violence etc. This type of idiocy really shows you the idiots in your state when you try to pass legislation for big game hunting with a suppressor.

As far as poking a sleeping bear....With the BATFE not so much on this issue. Higher up the food chain - it might be a better idea to wait a little to see if there are some new employees.

 

[bohem]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

Gents, Griffin particularly-

I own only a few suppressors (3) and none from anyone in this thread. However, if the manufacturers would get together I will make a point to push for signatures amongst several hundred local shooters that I deal with in addition to the dealers in my area to help with this petition.

<span style="font-weight: bold">This is a good opportunity for business competitors to realize that they need to come together for a common cause and all of them will benefit greatly for it.</span>

I know that personally, even with suppressors already in my posession I cringe thinking about sending off another $1k+ to sit for 8-9 months and not getting to use the what I'm paying for.

It's a poor state of affairs and with the advent of social media and the apparent computer/IT savvy individuals on tap in this thread alone some action is better than nothing.

Griffin - If you draft the petition, I'll sign it and I'll pass it around to everyone I know, including people who aren't firearms owners.

Let's pick this wall down piece by piece, don't swing for the fences, bring it down in the same manner it was built:

1 brick at a time.

 

[Early Cuyler]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gents, Griffin particularly-

I own only a few suppressors (3) and none from anyone in this thread. However, if the manufacturers would get together I will make a point to push for signatures amongst several hundred local shooters that I deal with in addition to the dealers in my area to help with this petition.

<span style="font-weight: bold">This is a good opportunity for business competitors to realize that they need to come together for a common cause and all of them will benefit greatly for it.</span>

I know that personally, even with suppressors already in my posession I cringe thinking about sending off another $1k+ to sit for 8-9 months and not getting to use the what I'm paying for.

It's a poor state of affairs and with the advent of social media and the apparent computer/IT savvy individuals on tap in this thread alone some action is better than nothing.

Griffin - If you draft the petition, I'll sign it and I'll pass it around to everyone I know, including people who aren't firearms owners.

Let's pick this wall down piece by piece, don't swing for the fences, bring it down in the same manner it was built:

1 brick at a time. </div></div>

I'd be more than willing to sign such a petition. And I'd wager I could get a few coworkers to sign on to it also. Especially if it is an online petition

 

[Silenced America]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I am with the past few posts and think a petition is probably the way to go. I will contact griffen armament and the ASA to try and see if we can get any more information. Every day we sit is a day that things are not being done and business as usual at the ATF continues is another day...week...month that is added to the wait.

 

[KYS]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I am on board with suppressors should be the exact same purchase parameters as a firearm. I mean which is more dangerous? A gun or a tube of baffles?

If you pass the background check you should be able to get the can and just mail in a copy of the form with your tax amount and be done with it. This sending off for approval is not needed.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

Tag for more info in how I can help/get involved.

 

[skinney_7]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am on board with suppressors should be the exact same purchase parameters as a firearm. I mean which is more dangerous? A gun or a tube of baffles?

If you pass the background check you should be able to get the can and just mail in a copy of the form with your tax amount and be done with it. This sending off for approval is not needed. </div></div>
Xactly what i said in my first post... i'm starting a petition on my facebook page, to @ least bring to attention the paperwork BS involved in buying a can... for god sake... this is the U.S. there are many countries you can buy em over the counter.

 

[Silenced America]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I have been working hard in Texas to make silencers legal for hunting of all game animals. I chuckled a little bit when the lawyer at the TSRA told me "if guns were invented today, OSHA would require a silencer to be sold with ever one of them for hearing safety." That is how ridiculous our government is. Just think, the NRA has never really been a "friend" to NFA ownership. Look what they did in 1986.

 

[JSTARSZ]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

Very interesting discussions and I will add to them by indicating that the government is on a hiring freeze so when people leave no one will be hired in the place thus indicating the NFA branch is losing one person and not being replaced. From someone who works in the government realm it does not run like normal business as in there seems to be an increased demand so let's hire more people to increase cash flow. The government is on a downward trend due to revenue shortfalls. The government does not look at its effective divisions and keep them and ineffective ones and sale them off - they cut 10-20% across all elements, commences a hiring freeze and adds incentives for those that can retire to leave the work force.

I am old enough to have been through this before in the 90's, remember the term peace dividend? They were cutting all elements and did not start hiring again until after 2001 when they figured out they had cut too much to be effective for a two theater war.

The NFA branch is no different than any other government agency- cut means cut so figure out how to do the work with what you have even if it means add time to the time lines - no skin off their nose if you are not happy about it...been to the DMV lately?

 

[netranger6]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

Well with those stats, the 12 examiners would have to complete 1.8 per hour....this on top of required smoke breaks, surfing the internet, sick days and vacation. That's assuming they report to work on time every day, don't exceed their break times, and lunch times.

 

[coues7]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

Tag for great info and to help where I can.

 

[KYS]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well with those stats, the 12 examiners would have to complete 1.8 per hour....this on top of required smoke breaks, surfing the internet, sick days and vacation. That's assuming they report to work on time every day, don't exceed their break times, and lunch times. </div></div>

For the money we pay for a small stamp.... we aren't asking for a lot of physical labor. I think they can get going a little faster.

 

[Silenced America]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well with those stats, the 12 examiners would have to complete 1.8 per hour....this on top of required smoke breaks, surfing the internet, sick days and vacation. That's assuming they report to work on time every day, don't exceed their break times, and lunch times.</div></div>

150,000 forms per year (Forms 2,3,4) This does not include Forms 1 and 5. 10 examiners (as of today). That is 15,000 forms per examiner per year. 365 days minus 104 days for weekends, 15 days for vacations, and 10 days for holidays = 236 days for work. That is 63+ forms per work day. That = over 8 forms per hour for 8 hours without breaks (damn the monotony). That includes ensuring fingerprints are good to go, forms are correct, trusts are legitimate, etc. This is just to keep up.

I work for a gov't contractor and we are all feeling the cutbacks. The problem is that the gov't spends...wastes our money and they cannot make it anywhere.

Here is some trivia. What branch or sub-branch of the US government besides the IRS and NFA is profitable?

 

[KYS]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

Federal banks?

 

[Radar360]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!


I have been very close to buying one. Then I learned about the Trust thing, then I learned about the long wait. It put a damper on my wishes.

But I still want one. My ears ring so bad.. I need to protect whats left of my hearing.

I agree that the gov't isn't about to give up any revenues. But if someone with good business sense supports that by using the same laws that govern concealed carry and by lowering the cost of the stamp the gov't will actually generate more revenue as more folks will purchase them, you may have some of their attention. And it would still be an uphill battle.

 

[Silenced America]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Federal banks? </div></div> Do you mean the ones that the American taxpayer has bailed out...or the Federal Reserve that keeps printing money and lending to banks at 0%?

 

[KYS]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

A question mark at the end of a sentence usually signifies a question, Scott.....

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I would only add the following to all the good thoughts above:

As once stated by a better man than I am now...

"I am for the strongest and most sincere effort on the part of Government to effectively review and adequately determine the appropriateness, based on standing law, of any person owning a firearm. Lawlessness is not to be tolerated. However, all Americans reserve the right under the Constitution to legally possess and legally use firearms. And, once that determination is made, I believe that any citizen that possesses a firearm deserves timely access to suppression. Every State, all citizens, based on the following:

1. I can think of no other consumer product that when used lawfully still has the highest potential of harming the general health of the person using it like firearms. The damage done every year to the hearing of Americans, as they lawfully pursue the shooting sports, is still a National tragedy. I know of no other simple, inexpensive solution to that very same problem, hearing loss, that is so readily available as suppressors and not made a matter of simple access. Even, IMO, the grossly limited freedoms of European nations preserve and, in some instances, require protection against hearing loss through the use of suppressors on firearms. Here...here in America, the very same nation that seems to pursue any ridiculous safeguard for all other things, when it comes to sound suppression, every hurdle is placed in the way of people legally obtaining it.

The tragedy is not the passage of time, properly spent as indicated by LL, or illegitimately delayed as suggested by so many others, it is the residual damage done to hearing during that very same period. The hearing of those that wait, the hearing of those that will not engage with the act of registration, the hearing of those that cannot afford the inflated prices caused as a direct result of the requirements set before them. It is, it has been, a Nation tragedy based on the simple idea that nefarious and illegal action comes whenever anyone wishes to protect their hearing. Firearm suppression should be a right of any American.

2. Caliber limitations on suppression is a matter of revenue generation. It has no bearing on effectively stopping crime. The notion that people cannot make suppressor multi-caliber effective is simply set aside by one simple and common fact. Americans legally can and legally do use overbore cans effectively as they pursue their desire to limit the destructive impact of firearm noise. I ask you this...if one can legally buy a .45 can and legally shoot 9mm through it, what sense comes from making buying a 9mm can and not allowing for that same envelope to allow for .45? If the answer that comes forth is "we don't want the parts floating about" the answer is plainly "nonsense!" For decades, tens of years, replacement parts were sold and the FBI crime statistics were clear...its the envelope, its the "can" that cannot ever be made without breaking the law. Why now internals? Revenue. Revenue is the answer as there is and has never been any indication that lawlessness surrounds parts.

3. Hold a person responsible and accountable for every suppressor he owns, but register the person not the individual suppressors. Treat the process as obtaining certainty of the individual(s) involved, focus there, use precious resources there. Once found to be a lawful possessor, what benefit can it possibly be to go through the whole process over and over and over with each can? If ownership of the first, the second, the third is verified, what possible value is there is disallowing the fourth?"

 

[m1garand30064]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would only add the following to all the good thoughts above:

As once stated by a better man than I am now...

"I am for the strongest and most sincere effort on the part of Government to effectively review and adequately determine the appropriateness, based on standing law, of any person owning a firearm. Lawlessness is not to be tolerated. However, all Americans reserve the right under the Constitution to legally possess and legally use firearms. And, once that determination is made, I believe that any citizen that possesses a firearm deserves timely access to suppression. Every State, all citizens, based on the following:

1. I can think of no other consumer product that when used lawfully still has the highest potential of harming the general health of the person using it like firearms. The damage done every year to the hearing of Americans, as they lawfully pursue the shooting sports, is still a National tragedy. I know of no other simple, inexpensive solution to that very same problem, hearing loss, that is so readily available as suppressors and not made a matter of simple access. Even, IMO, the grossly limited freedoms of European nations preserve and, in some instances, require protection against hearing loss through the use of suppressors on firearms. Here...here in America, the very same nation that seems to pursue any ridiculous safeguard for all other things, when it comes to sound suppression, every hurdle is placed in the way of people legally obtaining it.

The tragedy is not the passage of time, properly spent as indicated by LL, or illegitimately delayed as suggested by so many others, it is the residual damage done to hearing during that very same period. The hearing of those that wait, the hearing of those that will not engage with the act of registration, the hearing of those that cannot afford the inflated prices caused as a direct result of the requirements set before them. It is, it has been, a Nation tragedy based on the simple idea that nefarious and illegal action comes whenever anyone wishes to protect their hearing. Firearm suppression should be a right of any American.

2. Caliber limitations on suppression is a matter of revenue generation. It has no bearing on effectively stopping crime. The notion that people cannot make suppressor multi-caliber effective is simply set aside by one simple and common fact. Americans legally can and legally do use overbore cans effectively as they pursue their desire to limit the destructive impact of firearm noise. I ask you this...if one can legally buy a .45 can and legally shoot 9mm through it, what sense comes from making buying a 9mm can and not allowing for that same envelope to allow for .45? If the answer that comes forth is "we don't want the parts floating about" the answer is plainly "nonsense!" For decades, tens of years, replacement parts were sold and the FBI crime statistics were clear...its the envelope, its the "can" that cannot every be made. Why now internals? Revenue. Revenue is the answer as there is and has never been any indication that lawlessness surrounds parts.

3. Hold a person responsible and accountable for every suppressor he owns, but register the person not the individual suppressors. Treat the process as obtaining certainty of the individual(s) involved, focus there, use precious resources there. Once found to be a lawful possessor, what benefit can it possibly be to go through the whole process over and over and over with each can? If ownership of the first, the second, the third is verified, what possible value is there is disallowing the fourth?"
</div></div>

Great post. Could not agree more.

 

[KYS]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="color: #FF6666">3. Hold a person responsible and accountable for every suppressor he owns, but register the person not the individual suppressors. Treat the process as obtaining certainty of the individual(s) involved, focus there, use precious resources there. Once found to be a lawful possessor, what benefit can it possibly be to go through the whole process over and over and over with each can? If ownership of the first, the second, the third is verified, what possible value is there is disallowing the fourth?"</span>
</div></div>

Great idea! Once your approved you could carry something like a CCDW ID card and it would show your C3 dealer that you have been authorized to purchase. I like it! RollingThunder51 for President of NFA Branch!

 

[AED146]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I WANT TO SAY THAT I BACK YOUR INITIAL THREAD NEVER STOP ASKING FOR ANSWERS

 

[Silenced America]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A question mark at the end of a sentence usually signifies a question, Scott..... </div></div>

I know. I was just making a point that our government cannot generate revenues from anything other than taxes (eg, Post Office, Amtrak, Banks, etc, etc).

 

[KYS]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

Lets keep up the petition. I want to see this go somewhere. We need to shine a positive light on the issues at hand with the NFA Branch. They sure can do better then this with all that free revenue they are raking in.

 

[Boomholzer]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

If I sign the petition will all the "NFA WAIT TIME" posts stop??????

 

[coues7]

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

We need to keep this moving