process on 550 with mandrels

[needham]

so I am revamping my reloading process.
I recently sold my 1050s and downsized to a 550.
I have never used mandrels before, but have read a ton about them here on the hide.

this is for 223

wet tumble but without pins
anneal on annealeze with regulator
lube with lanolin and alcohol

550 process head (whitten tool head)
1. decap (ultimately will get a swage it for this station too)
2. size with a forster die if they ever come back in stock.
I will probably sand paper the expander ball a few thousands, and over time get the "honed version"
3. 21st century turning mandrel, probably the new black nitride
4. open

then trim on the tri trimmer by giraud

wet tumble to get lube off but without pins

550 loading head (again whitten clamped tool head)
1. mandrel to make sure nothing got dinged or out of round during tumbling/handling..... also prime here too
I am torn on whether to use redding dry neck lube here????
2. powder
3. seat bullet
4. crimp

this should produce about as good as ammo as possible, would you change or add anything????

 

[spife7980]

I would tumble to delube before trimming and skip the second mandrel on the second head altogether. If you have necks dinged enough from tumbling I’d work on that process to fix it instead of just adding more work to the brass on the second toolhead.
Put a decap die there instead to ensure that the flash hole is clear before priming if you’re gonna do that on press.

 

[needham]

I would tumble to delube before trimming and skip the second mandrel on the second head altogether. If you have necks dinged enough from tumbling I’d work on that process to fix it instead of just adding more work to the brass on the second toolhead.
Put a decap die there instead to ensure that the flash hole is clear before priming if you’re gonna do that on press.

got ya.

does the giruad make it THAT clean?
I always tumbled after trimming because of tiny shavings. But I never used the Giraud either, just got mine in and hooking it to a bench buffer.

wet tumbling and pouring from bucket to bucket was the reason for the second mandrel, just to true everything...…. but you're right, nothing should be that dinged up. and decapper is WAY cheaper to boot!

 

[spife7980]

I’ve never noticed a shaving in my necks if that’s what you mean by clean but I can’t say I’ve purposefully looked. I tumble my brass clean before trimming and with no lube in the neck there is nothing for a shaving to stick to. And it is oriented so gravity pulls it down.

If you mean does it give a beautiful nice clean chamfer and deburr every time? Yeah if you have it set right. I get basically just a skim over what tiny growth there is on subsequent firings but it’s always shiny.

 

[needham]

I’ve never noticed a shaving in my necks if that’s what you mean by clean but I can’t say I’ve purposefully looked. I tumble my brass clean before trimming and with no lube in the neck there is nothing for a shaving to stick to. And it is oriented so gravity pulls it down.

ahhhh
I didn't even think of it sticking to the lube......DUH!

Your explanation is perfect. I guess I just got into a rut of "doing it because that's how I do it"
THANKS!

 

[FishDr]

One other consideration for you... on the brass prep head. Instead of leaving station 4 open, move an extra powder die to that location. Set it to just barely kiss the shell plate at full raise of the ram. THEN set your FL sizing die in station 2. This will "balance" the force on the plate and make consistent shoulder bump easier to obtain.

On the loading head...I don't crimp precision rounds, but I DO use a crimp for gas gun ammo.

 

[needham]

Indeed fish!
I thought I was going to have all the stations full but when I wrote it out I didnt.
Definitely use something to balance out the shell plate

 

[Petrov]

Get rid of the expander ball if you are going to be using a mandrell

 

[Petrov]

Did you do your math for the mandrel size?>
Also be VERY proactive in lubing the inside of the neck

 

[needham]

Did you do your math for the mandrel size?>
Also be VERY proactive in lubing the inside of the neck

What math? What am I missing?

90% plus of folks use a turning mandrel, which provides 2 thousandths neck tension. What other math in involved?

 

[spife7980]

What math? What am I missing?

90% plus of folks use a turning mandrel, which provides 2 thousandths neck tension. What other math in involved?

None really. It will put you in a good spot. You can test what gives you the best results later if you care to but I just go with the turning arbors and have no complaints, just like every one else.
And when I lube the cases for sizing I just stand them up in a box and give a couple spritzes down at an angle to get some in the neck before tumping them over on their side and spraying the case body. If youre doing it in a ziploc and shaking it will be good enough. You dont need to sit down with a q tip or anything.

 

[needham]

Kinda what I always read and thought.

2 thousandths is standard unless it's a bench rest type gun.

 

[Petrov]

What math? What am I missing?

90% plus of folks use a turning mandrel, which provides 2 thousandths neck tension. What other math in involved?

Just the basic stuff. Match your bullet diameter and neck wall thickness size it a certain amount lets say using a bushing and using the correct size expander to get your proper neck tension.

 

[needham]

scheels has forster sizing dies in stock for anyone looking for one.

 

[needham]

I have a redding sizing die now, but I am switching to a forster.

I have always just screwed the sizing die down to the shellplate and ran with it. I might be a dummy for doing so but never had an issue with rounds gauging or chambering. shot plenty of sub moa groups with handloads with that process (no where near a loading expert)

I shoot range pick up from a range where I know everything is true once fired. I got a guy who brings it to me in 5 gallon buckets and I pick out the Lake City brass and scrap the rest.

I see a lot of folks talking about shoulder bump etc etc.
Is all that necessary for a gas driven AR15, even if "precision minded" ?

 

[spife7980]

Youll probably be fine but it will do more work than necessary, doing more work than necessary just uses them up quicker so you get less case life.

I always measure and keep my sizing to just enough instead of all the way back to saami minimum, its easy enough to measure a few cases with your comparators and adjust accordingly.

It takes just a moment and lets your brass last longer which means less effort having to do the entire initial figuring out stuff all over again on new brass which can be a major time saver in the end.

 

[Dthomas3523]

What math? What am I missing?

90% plus of folks use a turning mandrel, which provides 2 thousandths neck tension. What other math in involved?

Keep in mind spring back. If you’re using a turning mandrel that’s .002 under, say a .241 for a .243/6mm......many times it will spring back to .240 or .003 neck tension.

When using a .241 pin gauge to check neck tension, I usually need to use a .242 or .2425 mandrel to get .002.

 

[needham]

When using a .241 pin gauge to check neck tension, I usually need to use a .242 or .2425 mandrel to get .002.

I have always debated that.

It seems from my searches here that many forum users that truly anneal on a hard ans fast schedule dont see springback, or at least not measurable.
I have seen padom, spife(I think) and others say this.

I suppose I will find out for myself and adjust accordingly. those folks also used honed dies for what its worth.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I have always debated that.

It seems from my searches here that many forum users that truly anneal on a hard ans fast schedule dont see springback, or at least not measurable.
I have seen padom, spife(I think) and others say this.

I suppose I will find out for myself and adjust accordingly. those folks also used honed dies for what its worth.

I’ve never seen anyone claim they don’t see spring back. Annealing makes the spring back consistent.

I use an AMP and see spring back every time.

 

[spife7980]

I have always debated that.

It seems from my searches here that many forum users that truly anneal on a hard ans fast schedule dont see springback, or at least not measurable.
I have seen padom, spife(I think) and others say this.

I suppose I will find out for myself and adjust accordingly. those folks also used honed dies for what its worth.

It may be there for me, Im just not going to bother pursuing it to the half thousandth. The annealing relives stress so its less likely to want to spring back to the same extent but we dont take the brass all the way down to zero stress so there will always be some.
The brass is the source of the difference between pieces, Im not gonna turn necks so I just let it fall where it may. Still works well enough by my calipers, I just dont care for any higher resolution in the necks.

 

[needham]

I’ve never seen anyone claim they don’t see spring back. Annealing makes the spring back consistent.

I use an AMP and see spring back every time.

fair enough.

I went back and re read a thread where you, spife and sheldon were dicussing it.

what springback are you seeing?
from that other thread it seems .0005 or so.
I ordered a turning and expander mandrel today from 21st. so I am prepared either way.

it will be Lake City brass for an ar15(223/556)

 

[Dthomas3523]

I see about .001