Prone- Slung and Biopod

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Now, remember where your forward hand was positioned on the forend of the rifle, when the butt of the rifle was firmly lodged into your shoulder. It's just a little tricky here, but the key is to place your forward hand on the stock at the same place as where you were able to achieve good butt contact with your shoulder.

FROM THIS POINT, YOU'LL ADJUST THE SLING LENGTH UNTIL THE SLING SUPPORTS THE WEIGHT OF THE RIFLE, AND YIELDS A REASONABLY TIGHT, YET COMFORTABLE "WELD" OF THE BUTT INTO THE SHOULDER. The forward hand stays in the same position as from that original mark. Maybe a half-inch further out, but not closer in!

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

The next point is absolutely critical, and controls BALANCE. You've heard all kinds of folks talking about the recoil of the rifle, and how the darn thing bounces around all over the place. Well, there are a bunch of reasons for this "bounce". One of the predominant reasons has to do with balance. Here's the key: WHEN IN POSITION WITH THE SLING, THE RIFLE MUST HAVE NO TENDENCIES TO MOVE LEFT OR RIGHT. HOW? Ahhhhh.......watch the forward elbow.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

I would challenge each shooter to investigate the placement of the forward elbow, relative to the centerline of the rifle. "Wag" the rifle left and right, as you place your elbow in different locations relative to the centerline of the bore. You will feel the resultant tendencies, and you will "know" when you've got the right elbow position. When there are no tendencies remaining, when the rifle wants to fall neither left nor right, you've got the correct elbow position.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

To Natural Point of Aim

Now that you've built your position, the butt of the rifle is solid into your shoulder. That butt is compressing the clothing, fat, muscle, etcetera, all the way down to where you've got a consistent foundation in your shoulder. The sling is supporting the rifle, and everything feels "firm" but not "cramped". You're feeling a little pain in your elbow, in your bicept area, and your forward hand. That's normal. If the pain is extreme, you're doing it wrong. It doesn't hurt to wear a leather workmans glove, or a heavy welders glove if you want to get really comfortable. You can also buy a professional model from Kurt Thune (my favorite), or others, if you choose.

Attain the position, and now push your body forward with your toes. See where the sights went? Now, pull your body backwards with your toes. See where the sights went? Now, pick your lower body up by your toes, and shuttle slightly left. See where the sights went? Same goes for shuttling right. You now know how to adjust your natural point of aim. EVERYTHING ROTATES ABOUT YOUR FORWARD ELBOW.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Nuances

What we've just gone through is the Orthodox method of attaining the start of a good prone position. We did not go through the location of the spine, nor spine squared with the shoulders. We did not argue about a square position or a 15 degree position, and which one is best for recoil. We did not talk about the hiked leg. We did not discuss grip tension, nor head alignment, level ears, rifle cant, the natural respiratory pause, trigger control, the art of the reload. None of it. Granted, each one of those nuances CAN make or break a position. BUT, the goal of this thread is to introduce folks to the science and art of prone shooting. The goal is to show folks that it ain't hard. It's fundamentally easy, as a matter of fact. And, once the fundamentals are witnessed, understood and employed, THEN we can start discussing the second phase.

I do hope this thread brings renewed interest to prone shooting. It's deadly accurate, highly efficient, rapidly employed, and one heck of a lot of fun to steer a gun like this. Get off the bench, and have fun challenging yourself!!!! Oh, and for those folks who don't have the money for a rifle sling, I do provide you "the cheap bastard-approved", ghetto-funded, TEOTWAWKI sling. I witnessed a Russian win a Prone World Cup with this technique, and a whole bunch of "high dollar" shooters walk away from the line with their head hung low! No Sh*t. Here, for your viewing pleasure.....

 

[Erud]

Good posts, Johnson. Proper use of the sling is a lost art, and so often overlooked in favor of "easier" methods. Nothing teaches shooting fundamentals better. I'll take a sling from prone over any other platform every time.

 

[Ronin1973]

Great write up. Here at Rifles Only we are BIG fans of positional shooting. We just did a quick video of this position with using the sling from the carrying position to shooting and back up and moving.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rx7njRX5W0&list=UU6sQAoBANdAstOMwlVWqPGg

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

OK folks, what's next? Sitting, kneeling, or standing? I can tell you that kneeling is the hardest to coach, sitting is the most painful (for me), and standing the simplest, yet with generally the "hardest" results.

 

[MZ5]

I normally shoot precision rifle matches, but I was able to shoot a High Power C&R match this weekend with my M1. First HP match I've shot in a very long time, and first match with the M1. They (the HP guys) 'sit' differently than I do. I'm pleased with how I did in that match, but I'd like a discussion of sitting next, if you wouldn't mind, because of the difference I saw in my sitting position vs theirs. I believe I use an 'old' position. It looks like the sitting position in the War Department's WWII training films (shown up the thread a bit). I was not able to successfully replicate the sitting positions the HP shooters at the match used, in the couple minutes of prep time the stage contained.

 

[M40_A1]

Good for you! NO sitting position works well for me. Apparently I jave a very long torso, and I always end up pointing into the dirt unless I choke up on the stock like crazy. No service rifle has a hand stop/sling swivel far enough back for me and I end up having to use that messy spray glue- hardly ideal. In smallbore, I end up shooting my sitting in kneeling.

If it works for you, then use it. Don't worry about what everyone else is doing. Positions are fads. Someone wins a top match and everyone tries to copy his position to a "T". Then someone else wins using a position that is slightly different, and everyone jumps in and tries to do it that way- the "new" "perfect position". Posters will be made showing the shooter in his position, each part being described in detail, and pinned up at every range. Coaches point to it like it is the word of God. Then someone wins using a previous winning position, and now that becomes THE "perfect" position again. The truth is that everyone's body is different, and variations of positions work for some and not others. DON'T FORCE YOURSELF INTO A MOLD!!! Find YOUR position, while satisfying the principles of physics as YOUR body necessitates.

 

[kraigWY]

People are all build different, so it makes since, sitting positions are different.

There are three basic setting positions Cross Leg (indian style), Cross ankle, and open legged. All three are stable, neither is right or wrong, depending you your build or physical condition.

The main element is each is not to have bone to bone contact. Often referred to as stacking boulders. You don't what your elbow resting on your knee. You place your elbow in front of the knee, the fleshy part of the arm resting on the knee,

Or behind the knee where the elbow if resting on the fleshy part of the thigh behind the elbow.

Like any other position, if there is any Muscling, you got it wrong.

Again its nearly impossible for someone on the internet to tell you what is the best position for you without watching you shoot.

Find a coach who knows positions and sling use to help you.

I do believe the lower the position, the better, but that's just my personal opinion. I had a guy on my rife team (AK NG Rifle Team) who had a low cross legged position down to a science. His elbows were in front of the knees, almost to his arm pit. When shooting small bore the range officer would come up and slide a target under his elbows to make sure he wasn't resting the elbows on the ground in the setting position. Granted un-conventional but he was hard to beat in "setting rapid" stages.

He's an old guy like me now, and has gotten a little thick in the middle, I'd love to know if he can still get into that position.

For completion, I like the cross legged position, but that's normally on level ground. For hunting or shooting on non-square ranges, the open legged works better for me.

But again, not all of us are built the same, neither is the setting position.

 

[MZ5]

Thank you both for your replies.

Well, I can't say I love my stability in the sitting position, but it's alright. That translates into: I think I probably need to practice more, and I'm open to looking at alternatives to my open-legged position if there's something better. That said, what I'm reading in your responses is that there's no inherent 'problem' with my open-legged position, so long as it's stable for me. I can't get up very quickly from a cross-legged position, and my knees won't let me sit that way for more than a few moments without punishing me for the rest of the day, so I'll practice and perhaps try to refine my current open-legged posture in order to get stability more to what I'd like.

Whoever it was that said it's tough to correct your own issues with posture, since you can't see yourself, was right, IME. I recall the Gunny being very helpful with that when I was in college. It takes me longer to determine what I'm doing or what alignment issues I might have when I only have me to figure them out. I can generally do it, but it's slower.

 

[deerhunter70]

Thanks for the tutorial Smalljohnson. I can't wait till I have five minutes to try them out and dry fire. I do have a question. Is there a typical rifle style that this will work with or will any rifle work. I've seen it used on SR but is it doable with a heavy barreled A5 McMillian? It seems to me until I can try it, you would have to make some stock adjustments. And possibly some curls for the girls so my arms don't tire out.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

So it seems that Sitting, it is. I can tell you that I've got an absolutely UN-orthodox position, but it is bone solid. Before I post it, I'm going to check in with "The New Yorker", and make damn sure it's "legal" for NRA HP. Stand by.

 

[lash]

Thanks for the tutorial Smalljohnson. I can't wait till I have five minutes to try them out and dry fire. I do have a question. Is there a typical rifle style that this will work with or will any rifle work. I've seen it used on SR but is it doable with a heavy barreled A5 McMillian? It seems to me until I can try it, you would have to make some stock adjustments. And possibly some curls for the girls so my arms don't tire out.

Deerhunter, my limited experience with unsupported positions in field tactical rifle has been with my 26" m24 barreled .260 in a manners T4A with mini chassis, which is very similar to what you listed. It is a heavy sucker and barrel heavy balanced to boot. So, in answer to your questions, these techniques will work with any rifle type, including yours. They are just easier when using a light, well balanced hunting/field rifle.

 

[MZ5]

So it seems that Sitting, it is. I can tell you that I've got an absolutely UN-orthodox position, but it is bone solid. Before I post it, I'm going to check in with "The New Yorker", and make damn sure it's "legal" for NRA HP. Stand by.

Thanks for sharing. Patiently awaiting your reply when you get the time.

 

[Rustybroadhead]

TAG... Thanks guys! Great info

 

[Canepole]

Awesome thread! Thanks to everyone for taking out of their time to pay it forward. And it didn't cost me a dime! Very grateful.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

This is my favorite thread/topic. I encounter novice F class shooters most everyday, who, having shot a few matches, thus think that that they know how to shoot. These folks actually don't know anything about good shooting. Most apparent, they do not understand NPA, muscular relaxation, and bone/artificial support. Their bag or bipod rest dulls the sense of muscular relaxation. Not understanding these factors of a steady position, they muscle to target and experience results less than what would be possible if they knew something about building a steady position. Thing is, learning how to use the sling is a sure fire way to understand muscular relaxation as well as proper adjustment of NPA. These folks however are not interested in slings or in getting any basic marksmanship training. They see the HM shooters and think only about the equipment those guys are using. The novice shooter does not know the winning F class shooters came up through the ranks shooting small bore and high power. At any rate, I applaud 1SmallJohnson for the effort to raise awareness for of the benefits of sling support. It may be a lost cause however since it's clear the guys getting into LR today have no interest in ever slinging up.

 

[Erud]

The novice shooter does not know the winning F class shooters came up through the ranks shooting small bore and high power.

There are are some of those out there, but they are the exception, not the rule. F-class shooters are not coming from the ranks of Higpower or smallbore shooters, and the top F folks are not former sling shooters. It started out that way, but it's pretty much it's own separate game now. There is a pretty large contingent of active F-class shooters in MN, and I can think of exactly 3 of them that are former sling shooters, and all 3 of those guys are in their 70's. New shooters go to straight to f-class over sling at a rate of about 4/1 around here. National events I've shot are no different. I appreciate sling shooting as much as anyone, but you can definitely get to the very top of F-class without knowing a thing about sling shooting, or even owning a sling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[damoncali]

I find that if I don't shoot sling every now and then, my F class shooting gets sloppy. It's tough to learn to shoot properly shooting only F class because it's so "easy". Just point and shoot, right? All the errors are more subtle and harder to see. What looks to a novice like a good shot might not be, where in sling shooting, it's relatively easy to learn to call a bad shot.

 

[lash]

This is my favorite thread/topic. ...
...At any rate, I applaud 1SmallJohnson for the effort to raise awareness for of the benefits of sling support. It may be a lost cause however since it's clear the guys getting into LR today have no interest in ever slinging up.

While I agree that there are many people who are not aware nor interested in slung positions, I think it's too early to declare the practice dead and buried. In my very short experience shooting LR field precision matches, I've quickly come to realize that any major improvement in my scores relies heavily upon my ability to learn proper slung positions, especially hasty slung positions. And while I may be in a minority with my realization, I know that I am not alone.

Just look at Mile High and see what their latest instruction focuses on. Sure, these may not be the traditional slung positions you are describing, but the need to be able to properly set up a stable shooting stance from various positions is what slung is really all about and traditional slung is the basis for all of this.

I expect that you will disagree and I frankly do not have the experience nor expertise to argue, but then that is not why I posted. I want you and those with similar experience and expertise to know that, while the times they are a'changing, all is not lost and the sun has not yet set on your favored discipline. Had I an experienced and knowledgeable instructor near me, I would be doing everything I could to learn from said person the finer details of slung positions, NPA, muscular relaxation and bone support.

 

[DZelenka]

There is a pretty active junior highpower program in south east Louisiana teaching the next generation of service rifle and prone shooters. We basically provide them with everything, rifle, ammo, spotting scope, coat, etc. One of our graduates is shooting today in Spain at the World Small-bore Championships as a teammate of Michael McPhail and Matt Emmons. Another of our former highpower juniors was the #4 qualifier for that team (First Leather? ). There are still people who don't want to take the easy route. That said, I have met so many shooters who only want to drag their pseudo-tactical rifles out and shoot from bags or a bi-pod. Talking to them about slings and iron sights leaves them bewildered.

Dan

NRA HM in XTC, MR and LR
Distinguished Rifleman #1827
P100 2009, 2010 and 2011

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Hi Everyone,

Well, this post is about making excuses. I was out running in the woods back about 3 weeks ago, and picked up some chiggers. Damn things got infected on both legs.....just at the ankle line. I went to see the doctor two days ago, and he put me on a course of antibiotics. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that until these infections are healed, I'd probably best not get into a crossed ankle position.

For you snake eaters out there, maybe you could PM me and tell me how to care for chigger bites? Seems that just about every time I get bit by these arachnids, I wind up on antibiotics....

Best regards,

1smalljohnson

 

[CJ5K]

Thanks for posting this guys!

How fancy do you have to get with the sling? Will a piece o webbing affixed to the rifle be sufficient, or does it require an actual loop for your bicep to go through? Would something like the standard VTAC sling be acceptable?

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Thanks for posting this guys!

How fancy do you have to get with the sling? Will a piece o webbing affixed to the rifle be sufficient, or does it require an actual loop for your bicep to go through? Would something like the standard VTAC sling be acceptable?

Hi CJ,

I would say that a simple web sling would likely not hold its height against the upper arm. By having a cinch mechanism (forming a secondary loop), I believe a good sling will hold it's location. You'll see various adaptations of the "hold up", whether another sling formed across the back, and to the other arm, or a dog collar and a belt, or a tourniquet-type sling. I do really like the Armageddon sling. It functions both as a carry sling, as well as a full-up tactical shooting sling. High utility, low cost, and very easy to adjust.

 

[CJ5K]

Thanks for the info Johnson! Hope those chigger bites aren't giving you too much hell, and I'll check out the armegeddon sling, for sure.

Also, if y'all don't mind, I just want some clarification to make sure I have this part straight: in general, slings do not have as much of an impact on accuracy as a bipod and rear bag, but a good sling can be used in a variety of shooting positions, and it is faster to get slung in than it is to get the bipod set up perfectly. Therefore, it would probably be a good idea, if your rifle has a bipod, to put a sling on it as well.

Or am I way off base here?

Ok, I'm done hijacking the thread for a bit.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Hmmm, good question Chris.

I would say this: Both the sling and the bipod are tools. Each have their benefit. If you're "down in the dirt" and waiting on a shot for days or even hours on end, a sling is not an option. But, if you're looking for "high utility" from ONE assistive device attached to your rifle, a sling is hard to beat. You can carry with it, in a variety of configurations. With it's proper employment, you CAN hold 1/4 MOA. And, it's a rudimentary device which SHOULD be investigated as a critical element to any marksmans kit.

In total weight, a sling would likely weigh on-par with a bipod. Just a guess. But then, add in a rear bag. The weight question is then moot.

Backpack? No weight consequence. Run what'cha brung.

In this thread, by NO means am I bashing the use of a bipod, nor a backpack, nor any "cheat" or "hack" or any improvised device to assist in hitting a smaller mark from a greater distance. Being industrious is a sign of a great marksman. And to that end; teaching the new, and reminding the old, of the utility of a proper sling, I do hope these thoughts ignite that fire in the belly.

 

[CJ5K]

Thanks again man. I was trying to wrap my head around the idea of how to choose between the two tools that perform the same task. What you said tracks pretty well with what I was TRYING to articulate, even if my wording got a little dorked up.

I'm taking my AR to the Appleseed Event in Tallahassee next weekend, so I should get a good bit of training on how to use a sling and irons the right way. Now I just need to find a sling on short notice. I might end up just going with that dog collar and belt set up you have, and order the armegeddon or short action precision afterwords.

Thanks again for the help. It's nice to see another "Johnson" on here

 

[pmclaine]

Thanks again man. I was trying to wrap my head around the idea of how to choose between the two tools that perform the same task. What you said tracks pretty well with what I was TRYING to articulate, even if my wording got a little dorked up.

I'm taking my AR to the Appleseed Event in Tallahassee next weekend, so I should get a good bit of training on how to use a sling and irons the right way. Now I just need to find a sling on short notice. I might end up just going with that dog collar and belt set up you have, and order the armegeddon or short action precision afterwords.

Thanks again for the help. It's nice to see another "Johnson" on here

For your Appleseed shoot get a basic GI issue cotton sling. One end should have a slide keeper and the top should be secured with a buckle. Its probably the easiest thing to use and it works. Cheap. No frills. When you learn to build your position you become the bipod.

 

[pmclaine]

PS - If you are a member of a shooting club/range find the guy that teaches the juniors and ask if he has any shooting coats. Most older clubs have a room of cast off coats and if you can find a used 1950s era Imperial 10X shooting coat you will have a useful peice of gear. The older Imperial 10X offers little for offhand support but it has beautiful rubber elbow cups that offer slip resistance and some pain prevention. The arm of the coat where your sling rides will have a heavy leather pulse pad - your sling can become a pulse telegraph and it gets a little annoying watching the site bounce in tune with your heartbeat.

The 10X is no comparison to a Creedmoor hardback but they are cheap, and you wont get heat stroke wearing one. The only issue I find with them is that they tend to be sized for people from the 50's - read smaller in stature circumferentially. When I see 44/46 sized coats on Ebay Im usually an active bidder. Most are brand new with the only real damage being they all seem to smell of 40 years of cigarette smoke.

 

[pmclaine]

pps - A shooting glove for the hand the sling wraps around is recommended for any serious sling range time. $20 at Creedmoor sports for the leather NRA one or use a canvas garden glove. The glove is only for cushioning the sling against your hand. The front hand doesnt even grip the rifle. relax your hand open your fingers and create a table for the sling to pull the rifle steady upon.

 

[CJ5K]

Pmclaine, good intel. I've been making the rounds at the local sporting goods stores, but it seems like most of the slings they carry are the padded, quick claw type. I did find a magpul ms3 at one place.


Also, the question about the bipod was just because I put a bipod on my 30-06 back home in Seattle, so I was curious about adding a sling into the mix, but that's pretty low on the list of priorities right now. I really just want to get the fundamentals and basics down: iron sights with either a loop sling or a "hasty" sling.

 

[pmclaine]

Pmclaine, good intel. I've been making the rounds at the local sporting goods stores, but it seems like most of the slings they carry are the padded, quick claw type. I did find a magpul ms3 at one place.


Also, the question about the bipod was just because I put a bipod on my 30-06 back home in Seattle, so I was curious about adding a sling into the mix, but that's pretty low on the list of priorities right now. I really just want to get the fundamentals and basics down: iron sights with either a loop sling or a "hasty" sling.

Your GI original will be found at a real surplus store or perhaps someone on here has a spare. I dont think one will cost more than $15-$20. The M16 models are black and the earlier are olive green. I think length is sufficient either will work.

I use M1907 leather but they are a little more complicated with the claw frogs.

Try not to buy a ChiCom cloth sling it will likely fail/stretch in use. Standard GI is cheap, no padding, and works. Google should turn up many offerings.

 

[pmclaine]

Here is the result of a quick Google search

Army Military M16/A2 SLING - Charleyssurplus

 

[Zhoolka]

Great point about promoting proper skills and knowledge. I am a new guy here and it is my first time with a precision rifle. Looking at my experience, I could definitely benefit from some additional info. Can you recommend a good book that explains the basics. I can certainly find a lot of books out there, but there should be something that is generally considered a kind of a "bible" out there?

 

[Zhoolka]

Do I understand it right, that this predominantly works for lighter rifles? Or with proper position it does not matter.

 

[pmclaine]

Great point about promoting proper skills and knowledge. I am a new guy here and it is my first time with a precision rifle. Looking at my experience, I could definitely benefit from some additional info. Can you recommend a good book that explains the basics. I can certainly find a lot of books out there, but there should be something that is generally considered a kind of a "bible" out there?

Look for the author Glenn Zediker - Slings and Things, as well as other books he writes.

 

[Zhoolka]

Thanks, I will look one up. Thing is, sometimes you buy a book and it turns out to be an interesting read but lacks the basics. That is why I am asking. Again, thanks for your recommendation.

 

[Romeyo]

Look for the author Glenn Zediker - Slings and Things, as well as other books he writes.

I recently read his "Handloading for competition". He really seems to know what he's writing about but his writing style can cause someone a bit of headache ^^

I also just started reading "Gun Digest, Shootes guide to Rifle Marksmanship" by Peter Lessler which also covers field shooting positions and slings quite a lot.

This book basically got me interested in learning how to properly use the sling. Unfortunately, I feel like the majority of shooters in my area are shooting sitting off the bench, and thats the shooting style almost every range seems to be based on. Prone is almost impossible, sitting and kneeling would be possible off/on the bench (looks kinda funny) and standing would be no problem.
But nevertheless, I'm about to order a armageddon sling, and I'm also interesten in the FTW RO sling, and see where it will lead to...

Anyway, thanks for all the good info on this thread.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Zhoolka,

Good point about the books. I don't know any books about "practical marksmanship". I can tell you that you can order the 3-position competition book, or the Service Rifle book from the CMP, but I've never seen an authoritative book about practical rifle marksmanship. I just looked through my library of shooting-related books, and everything I've got is competition-geared. One book, called "The Basics of Rifle Shooting" appears to have the right title, but upon opening, it's geared towards juniors.

I can say that over the years, I've read numerous books that have "helped" me understand the art and science of marksmanship: "How I became a Crack Shot", "A Rifleman Went to War", "Instinct Shooting", "Unintended Consequences", "Rimfire Rifleman".

I would think that IF there were one organization who'd have it together, it WOULD be the Appleseed Project. I'd suggest you check in with that group?

 

[CNC_Apps_Guy]

How do we promote marksmanship "bling"?

Project Appleseed perhaps?