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Protection dogs ?
- Thread starter alpha6164
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PKRobbins,the two of them look great together, best of luck. If I may, it might be a good idea to not clip the leash on the live ring of the prong collar when he's dragging the leash around. It can get caught on something and give him a painful, unwarranted correction. A flat collar would be a better choice for dragging a line.
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good idea toebuster,
to everyone else, what he is talking about is on a prong or pinch collar, or choker type collar, there is what we call a live ring, and what is called dead ring. on the pinch/prong collar you will notice 2 large rings, usually sitting 1 over the other, if you clip the lead to only 1 where it can constrict like a common ''choke'' collar that is live ring. if you clip your leash to both rings at the same time, this is called dead ringing, which is much less harsh/stimulating on the dog. now before buying and using a collar like this please consult someone with knowlege on it's use, how to properly fit it on your dog, and the differences of live/dead ring. the same can be said of an e-collar, or common ''choke'' collar. the flat collar he speaks of is any common leather,nylon type collar you regularly see in any pet section. another thing is plastic quick snap buckles have been know to break under any stress or sudden jerk, so i suggest a collar with a good old metal buckle
not trying to insult anyones intelligence, but i'm sure many people look at his post and scratch their heads, wtf is a live ring?
kenny
to everyone else, what he is talking about is on a prong or pinch collar, or choker type collar, there is what we call a live ring, and what is called dead ring. on the pinch/prong collar you will notice 2 large rings, usually sitting 1 over the other, if you clip the lead to only 1 where it can constrict like a common ''choke'' collar that is live ring. if you clip your leash to both rings at the same time, this is called dead ringing, which is much less harsh/stimulating on the dog. now before buying and using a collar like this please consult someone with knowlege on it's use, how to properly fit it on your dog, and the differences of live/dead ring. the same can be said of an e-collar, or common ''choke'' collar. the flat collar he speaks of is any common leather,nylon type collar you regularly see in any pet section. another thing is plastic quick snap buckles have been know to break under any stress or sudden jerk, so i suggest a collar with a good old metal buckle
not trying to insult anyones intelligence, but i'm sure many people look at his post and scratch their heads, wtf is a live ring?
kenny
This thread has been a great read. I have always been a Lab man and always will but a recent incident has put me on a search for an additional dog to add to the family. In short what happened was I got a call from my wife at work and she was terrified because there was a man on our back patio with a gun! He was on the run being chased by police and wife and kids were under bed hoping he didn't try to enter the house being the back door was unlocked (it was in the middle of the day). It all turned out ok and the police arrested the guy but my lab didn't even bark. He is a great duck dog but it would be comforting to have a good guard dog home when I am away on hunting trips. My search has brought me to three breeds. The GSD, Dutch Shepherd, and Malinois. I have been completely enamored with the Malinois but it's becoming apparent that they probably aren't the right fit. It's looking more and more like a well bred GSD will be the choice. Ive heard the breed has been watered down quite a bit due to a lot of backyard breeding but hopefully I can find a good pup that doesn't break the bank. That is a great looking dog PK Robbins!
good idea toebuster,
to everyone else, what he is talking about is on a prong or pinch collar, or choker type collar, there is what we call a live ring, and what is called dead ring. on the pinch/prong collar you will notice 2 large rings, usually sitting 1 over the other, if you clip the lead to only 1 where it can constrict like a common ''choke'' collar that is live ring. if you clip your leash to both rings at the same time, this is called dead ringing, which is much less harsh/stimulating on the dog. now before buying and using a collar like this please consult someone with knowlege on it's use, how to properly fit it on your dog, and the differences of live/dead ring. the same can be said of an e-collar, or common ''choke'' collar. the flat collar he speaks of is any common leather,nylon type collar you regularly see in any pet section. another thing is plastic quick snap buckles have been know to break under any stress or sudden jerk, so i suggest a collar with a good old metal buckle
not trying to insult anyones intelligence, but i'm sure many people look at his post and scratch their heads, wtf is a live ring?
kenny
Thank you.
That's not a fur saver, the black GSD above, that I pointed out is wearing a prong collar. Not the same.
We also called a flat collar a fur saver. I played with the pups for over 25 years.
If you think about it, that's what these dogs were bred to do. They were bred to watch the herd. Not herd animals like Border Collie but to walk their post and protect animals (sheep and cattle) they could harm if they wanted to. The Northern Europeans really nailed the herding/guard dog with the Dutch Shepherd/Belgian Shepherd/German Shepherd. The Belgian is probably the oldest of the three breeds but we're not sure as because German Shepherds were definitely around, just not recognized as a formal breed until Captain Max Von Stephanitz took it upon himself to save the bloodline and make it a real breed.
The Dutch Shepherd nearly died out as a breed but was rescued generations ago with a breeding program and infusions of Belgian Shepherd breeding stock.
Here's a pic of a friend's Dutchie working dog.
there are many ideas as to the breeds. i know that it is said that gsd's were cross bred into mali's and it took years to breed the unwanted traits back out. thank holland for saving the dutchies.
The Belgians were recognized as a breed a long while before the GSDs. The GSDs are relative latecomers.
since i've had a few and am feeling good, feel free to ask questions, but be prepared to get an honest answer. i will recommend that anyone that is new to ''working'' dogs, please spend the extra money and buy a ''green'' already started dog. there are so many ways to ruin a good puppy ! also you won't have all the puppy stages that drives people crazy, socializing, training, chewing. it's like a gun, you don't buy a 250$ pawn shop rifle to win an F class championship, so think to yourself, what is my families safety worth? i can answer whole hearted mine is priceless ! ! ! so take this with a grain of salt, research, talk to breeders, different trainers, it's YOUR money, find someone passionate llike a few of us about the breed you like. educate yourself and be prepared to put in some work to keep a dog the way you want !
don't go with a bullshit artist, or person that has the big website, big staff and huge pricetag! look for someone that you like, will take all the time to explain things, recommend trainers, and other resources. ask a breeder to see the parents WORK, titles are as good as the paper their printed or wrote on! and like i have said along with others, be prepared to work, learn and enjoy it! there is no '' preprogrammed asner or dog that is perfect.
sincerely kenny
don't go with a bullshit artist, or person that has the big website, big staff and huge pricetag! look for someone that you like, will take all the time to explain things, recommend trainers, and other resources. ask a breeder to see the parents WORK, titles are as good as the paper their printed or wrote on! and like i have said along with others, be prepared to work, learn and enjoy it! there is no '' preprogrammed asner or dog that is perfect.
sincerely kenny
LRI
I don't care what dog came first . i love them all for what they are. they all started as mutt's till someone decided to stadardize a ''breed' for them. like a wildcat cartrige it all starts as an idea. my idea of perfect doesn't fit everyone! but i know how to get the results i want regardless of if it's a chihuahua or a doberman. like people all dogs are different and there is no 1 set training method that is universal, just like 2 of the same guns that like different loads.
if you all can't tell i love dogs! i also have high expectations. i do not compete as it just doesn't fit me. i laugh at most ''trainers'' and competitions and kindly explain the game in which i was playing was at the highest level. as in if you lose, you come home in a box with a flag over it. many people take competition WAY to seriously, and to me it's all a D!ck measuring contest. i do admire some as they compete just to have fun! and if it could always be this way count me in, but as is life there are politics in everything, who you know, what your dog, gun,scope cost, what names are there. Life is too short for such shit and i just want to enjoy what i have left of it. if anyone here needs a reference i will give you an email to a world champion kick-boxer i sold a dog to, very honest guy. also has a show in vegas, does movies, and is a composer. he is now very active in dog sport and like me loves animals.
kenny
p.s. toebuster, your welcome, no dissrespect just thought most wouldn't understand.
I don't care what dog came first . i love them all for what they are. they all started as mutt's till someone decided to stadardize a ''breed' for them. like a wildcat cartrige it all starts as an idea. my idea of perfect doesn't fit everyone! but i know how to get the results i want regardless of if it's a chihuahua or a doberman. like people all dogs are different and there is no 1 set training method that is universal, just like 2 of the same guns that like different loads.
if you all can't tell i love dogs! i also have high expectations. i do not compete as it just doesn't fit me. i laugh at most ''trainers'' and competitions and kindly explain the game in which i was playing was at the highest level. as in if you lose, you come home in a box with a flag over it. many people take competition WAY to seriously, and to me it's all a D!ck measuring contest. i do admire some as they compete just to have fun! and if it could always be this way count me in, but as is life there are politics in everything, who you know, what your dog, gun,scope cost, what names are there. Life is too short for such shit and i just want to enjoy what i have left of it. if anyone here needs a reference i will give you an email to a world champion kick-boxer i sold a dog to, very honest guy. also has a show in vegas, does movies, and is a composer. he is now very active in dog sport and like me loves animals.
kenny
p.s. toebuster, your welcome, no dissrespect just thought most wouldn't understand.
A couple of points, In late 19th century Germany, the dogs that worked sheep were considered German shepherding/sheepherding dogs. They were not a breed, but a type. They were of like build, and appearance. Up until 1899 there was no German Shepherd Dog breed.
As was earlier stated, Rittmeister Max Von Stephanitz created the breed. The main dogs he used to establish the breed, were from the German regions of Thuringia, Wurtenberg, and Swabia. He focused mainly on the dogs that worked tirelessly, that showed extreme intelligence, dogs that showed no outward fear, and able to work in a strong partnership with a human, as well as dogs with an alert expression, forward facing ears, and tails that did not curl over the dog's back.
Hector Linksrheinthy, he was renamed Horand von Graphen, was the first dog (SZ1) registered in the SV as a GSD in 1899. Stephanitz later wrote a book: the German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture, as well as put in place rules that would keep his breed a working breed, first and foremost.
These rules outlined in the SV, are still in place and followed even today in Germany, for the dog to have the coveted "pink papers" and be considered a purebred. No such rules are mandatory in the U.S by the AKC (a garbage organization ). I'm not saying there aren't crooks that sidestep the rules and titles, but for the most part especially the working dog people, will be more passionate about the utility of their dogs, instead of the dog's appearance with no regard paid to what the founder envisioned.
And that's a brief history on the GSD.
Having nothing but GSD's in our home, I'm really thinking of a Dutchie next, I like their size, athleticism, and over the top work ethic, not to mention less shedding.
As was earlier stated, Rittmeister Max Von Stephanitz created the breed. The main dogs he used to establish the breed, were from the German regions of Thuringia, Wurtenberg, and Swabia. He focused mainly on the dogs that worked tirelessly, that showed extreme intelligence, dogs that showed no outward fear, and able to work in a strong partnership with a human, as well as dogs with an alert expression, forward facing ears, and tails that did not curl over the dog's back.
Hector Linksrheinthy, he was renamed Horand von Graphen, was the first dog (SZ1) registered in the SV as a GSD in 1899. Stephanitz later wrote a book: the German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture, as well as put in place rules that would keep his breed a working breed, first and foremost.
These rules outlined in the SV, are still in place and followed even today in Germany, for the dog to have the coveted "pink papers" and be considered a purebred. No such rules are mandatory in the U.S by the AKC (a garbage organization ). I'm not saying there aren't crooks that sidestep the rules and titles, but for the most part especially the working dog people, will be more passionate about the utility of their dogs, instead of the dog's appearance with no regard paid to what the founder envisioned.
And that's a brief history on the GSD.
Having nothing but GSD's in our home, I'm really thinking of a Dutchie next, I like their size, athleticism, and over the top work ethic, not to mention less shedding.
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here is my wife with a young male i bred zues, he's 18 mo old, we got him back yesterday, he was at a friends for 14 months. this is how fast they can bond. the second picture is of my male ''rocko''. he is my dog but if any of the kids or family sleeps on the couch or such he stay's there with them. he will be by whoever is closest to the door. and usually between you and the door.
kenny
kenny
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Good way to look at it. I pretty much got out of the Border Collie game after competing with several ass hats and fools. The best was when using my dog to set sheep at a trial for the competitors, I had a guy crawl my ass cause his dog stopped during his run to sniff where my bitch had pissed earlier. The dog didn't have his head in the game, he was breed to the nines but this guy had turned him into a robot and taken all the drive out of him. I'll train this GSD, but have no plans to compete with him.
my dog is so vicious he's laying by me with a cat . he's the biggest pussy anyone ever met, alteast till someone acts stupid around us. PK i hear you. enjoy your boy, tracking is a great way to mentally chanllenge him and bleed off energy. i'm not a fan of tracking, but my wife loves it and the dogs after a tracking session. the protection portion of training doesn't take dailey refreshing, after your dog is where you want him just continue training 1 x a month and he will always be good at it. it's just a sustainment phase after they are where you and your family feel comfortable.
best regards kenny
. he's the biggest pussy anyone ever met, alteast till someone acts stupid around us. PK i hear you. enjoy your boy, tracking is a great way to mentally chanllenge him and bleed off energy. i'm not a fan of tracking, but my wife loves it and the dogs after a tracking session. the protection portion of training doesn't take dailey refreshing, after your dog is where you want him just continue training 1 x a month and he will always be good at it. it's just a sustainment phase after they are where you and your family feel comfortable.best regards kenny
GSD, as I said earlier, I don't have the time/training to own a protection dog right now. However, my situation will likely change in a few years, and I'm hoping for a move to the country. My girlfriend gets scared in a house by herself, and I can only imagine it would be even worse out in the sticks. Oddly enough, she mentioned to me tonight that if we live in the country she would want "a big German Shepherd to eat people that try to break in the house." (Her words. I couldn't make that up). I guess my question is how much would it cost to get a GOOD GSD that's trained to level II? I'm not interested in $30k dogs. I would want one that would be my buddy, but would also die protecting me and what I love. Can a dog like this be introduced to kids, or is it best to socialize them with kids early on? (we may have kids someday). The other thing is she LOVES Pugs, and wouldn't like being without one ( they're actually really sweet, loving little dogs). Would a protection dog be able to tolerate a little dog like that?
Chef,
From my own experience, a stable dog will tolerate a LOT. My patrol dog was introduced to a house with several other dogs, cats, and a bird. He also instantly took to my nieces when they would come visit. No issues at all. Keep in mind he was a dual purpose police dog and was not specifically selected as a household PPD, but his temperament was fantastic.
If they're socialized properly when they're young, and we as their "owners" don't get them amped up they'll adjust to pretty much anything. What you unfortunately see sometimes is people getting into the "hey y'all watch this" bullshit with their dogs and getting the dogs to show their asses when it's not appropriate, which sends a mixed signal to the dog on when it's supposed to be switched on. Stable dogs have an AMAZING ability to read a situation and read a person.
If at some point in the future you get one, and he's demonstrated himself to be calm and stable, and out of the blue he doesn't like someone, or grumbles or shows teeth or whatever, you need to REALLY pay attention to that person, even if it's a family friend or whatever. When I saw that movie "Unbreakable" with Bruce Willis where he could touch someone and see inside their head it was the closest visual reference I'd seen to what a Shep is doing when it meets someone. It's uncanny, but my whole team came to rely VERY heavily on what my dog was doing when we were working in villages over here. They just pick up on things we'll never notice (and their ears made great direction-finding for incoming fire )
From my own experience, a stable dog will tolerate a LOT. My patrol dog was introduced to a house with several other dogs, cats, and a bird. He also instantly took to my nieces when they would come visit. No issues at all. Keep in mind he was a dual purpose police dog and was not specifically selected as a household PPD, but his temperament was fantastic.
If they're socialized properly when they're young, and we as their "owners" don't get them amped up they'll adjust to pretty much anything. What you unfortunately see sometimes is people getting into the "hey y'all watch this" bullshit with their dogs and getting the dogs to show their asses when it's not appropriate, which sends a mixed signal to the dog on when it's supposed to be switched on. Stable dogs have an AMAZING ability to read a situation and read a person.
If at some point in the future you get one, and he's demonstrated himself to be calm and stable, and out of the blue he doesn't like someone, or grumbles or shows teeth or whatever, you need to REALLY pay attention to that person, even if it's a family friend or whatever. When I saw that movie "Unbreakable" with Bruce Willis where he could touch someone and see inside their head it was the closest visual reference I'd seen to what a Shep is doing when it meets someone. It's uncanny, but my whole team came to rely VERY heavily on what my dog was doing when we were working in villages over here. They just pick up on things we'll never notice (and their ears made great direction-finding for incoming fire
)Awesome thread!
I grew up across the street from a local PD SGT that had the only K9 partner in town at the time (early 80's)
The GSD named "SIR" barked non stop when off duty. Yea he scared the shit out of me.
FFD 30 years, my golden ret passed and my youngest son was begging for a GSD... yea remembering the barking
I found an 8wk old purebred, no papers of course, met the parents and fell in love with a FAT long hair sable GSD
Rambo is 20 months, still a puppy mentally but I've never seen a more gentile dog towards other pets...kittens, shitzu.chihuaha, lizards, turtles...??
Just sharing a bit of the story but I would really appreciate a link to train ME to train him.
Rambo is my sons dog.. I want one for myself.
I grew up across the street from a local PD SGT that had the only K9 partner in town at the time (early 80's)
The GSD named "SIR" barked non stop when off duty. Yea he scared the shit out of me.
FFD 30 years, my golden ret passed and my youngest son was begging for a GSD... yea remembering the barking
I found an 8wk old purebred, no papers of course, met the parents and fell in love with a FAT long hair sable GSD
Rambo is 20 months, still a puppy mentally but I've never seen a more gentile dog towards other pets...kittens, shitzu.chihuaha, lizards, turtles...??
Just sharing a bit of the story but I would really appreciate a link to train ME to train him.
Rambo is my sons dog.. I want one for myself.
Only a problem until the Shep grows up, then the problem is how to explain the missing Pug
Curious to see what the trainers here feel about how bonding with a puppy affects his ability or desire to protect its family unit?
Do you feel that a puppy raised & reared by a single owner in a family setting is more apt to "protect" that family, solely on instinct?
I've seen a few references to where PPDs are showing to have a certain uncanny "sense" that allows it to single out a potential threat, or 'questionable' person, if you will. Is that not a sense that the 'average' dog doesn't already possess? Could it possibly be that the 'average dog' just needs some 'coaching' to build on that instinct?
Reason I ask is not to jab. Its just that every single dog I've ever owned has displayed exactly that same "sense". From crossed bred mutts, to an adopted Dobie, to bulldogs, to my current hunting bred dog. Some showed it and keyed in on it more than others. But, to a dog, they were all able to key in on if a certain person is giving off a strange 'vibe', for lack of a better word.
Again, no disrespect, but do you guys really think PPD breeds have a corner on the market, regarding that sense? And, do you feel that the desire to protect it's family is somehow woefully lacking in the average canine companion?
Been a dog lover/owner my whole life, and have never owned a dog that would flat out NOT want to protect me. Could that be attributed to raising them from young pups, and bonding with them?
How does formalized PPD training replace that bond, with a new owner?
Maybe I've read "Where the Red Ferns Grows" once too many times, but I feel the bond created with a dog from puppyhood reaps rewards not enjoyed otherwise.
For conversation...
Do you feel that a puppy raised & reared by a single owner in a family setting is more apt to "protect" that family, solely on instinct?
I've seen a few references to where PPDs are showing to have a certain uncanny "sense" that allows it to single out a potential threat, or 'questionable' person, if you will. Is that not a sense that the 'average' dog doesn't already possess? Could it possibly be that the 'average dog' just needs some 'coaching' to build on that instinct?
Reason I ask is not to jab. Its just that every single dog I've ever owned has displayed exactly that same "sense". From crossed bred mutts, to an adopted Dobie, to bulldogs, to my current hunting bred dog. Some showed it and keyed in on it more than others. But, to a dog, they were all able to key in on if a certain person is giving off a strange 'vibe', for lack of a better word.
Again, no disrespect, but do you guys really think PPD breeds have a corner on the market, regarding that sense? And, do you feel that the desire to protect it's family is somehow woefully lacking in the average canine companion?
Been a dog lover/owner my whole life, and have never owned a dog that would flat out NOT want to protect me. Could that be attributed to raising them from young pups, and bonding with them?
How does formalized PPD training replace that bond, with a new owner?
Maybe I've read "Where the Red Ferns Grows" once too many times, but I feel the bond created with a dog from puppyhood reaps rewards not enjoyed otherwise.
For conversation...
Again, no disrespect, but do you guys really think PPD breeds have a corner on the market, regarding that sense? And, do you feel that the desire to protect it's family is somehow woefully lacking in the average canine companion?
yes i do. just cause a dog growls or shows teeth does not mean he will protect you.when actually challeneged at this point he is in fight or flight ! most dogs will flee, live to fight another day. my dog have been conditioned to fight and win. most of them will never show their teeth or growl unless they are told to. not all though, i have had, and sold dogs that are what people call ''sharper'' dogs that are not social with ANYONE but their family.
knockemdown, i will agree to disagree with you. as you certainly believe any old dog is good enough and will protect you without any training. i wish you well and hope we will never find out. i on the other hand believe in it;s better to have and not need than need and not have. i have this belief from 3 tours over seas. my experience will differ from most greatly. and a few of us here agree slightly on dog things but the common thing we agree on is breed selection, and proper training. i am here offering help and making nothing off of it besides hopefully some good friendships.
regards kenny
yes i do. just cause a dog growls or shows teeth does not mean he will protect you.when actually challeneged at this point he is in fight or flight ! most dogs will flee, live to fight another day. my dog have been conditioned to fight and win. most of them will never show their teeth or growl unless they are told to. not all though, i have had, and sold dogs that are what people call ''sharper'' dogs that are not social with ANYONE but their family.
knockemdown, i will agree to disagree with you. as you certainly believe any old dog is good enough and will protect you without any training. i wish you well and hope we will never find out. i on the other hand believe in it;s better to have and not need than need and not have. i have this belief from 3 tours over seas. my experience will differ from most greatly. and a few of us here agree slightly on dog things but the common thing we agree on is breed selection, and proper training. i am here offering help and making nothing off of it besides hopefully some good friendships.
regards kenny
Knockem,
I certainly won't say that other breeds can't "read" a person, and didn't mean to imply that at all. If you have a dog that will WARN you of a threat then be grateful for it and use it to your advantage. I just don't count on an unproven dog actually DEFENDING it's family or property. That's not a jab at anyone's dog or any breed. My Labs and Retrievers were great at letting me know when someone was coming up the hill to my house. That's all I "expected" of them, I knew that no matter how much they barked or how much they loved me, they were NOT going to attack someone and fight them to the death to defend me. They just weren't. Those dogs and I loved each other more than most people I've known and even some of my relatives, but it wasn't in them to actually fight someone for me.
We raised the point earlier in the thread that there are a lot of people with GSDs, Mals, Dutchies, Pits, Cane Corsos, Rotties, Dobies, whatever that will also NOT defend them. There are those breeds of dogs plus some (giant Schnauzers etc) that compete in dog-sport and look great on equipment in prey drive that won't actually fight for their owners and certainly won't bite a true bad guy on command. It's the "don't call him a cowboy till you've seen him ride" approach. Unless a dog has proven he will, then he won't, is the way I look at it. That's not even a criticism, it's just having a realistic expectation.
I'd hate to have someone be convinced their $100k dog is going to solve all their problems during a break in only to be sorely disappointed.
Having owned and/or lived with a LOT of dogs of varying breeds, I can just say that from my own experience I have yet to ever have a dog with a better intuitive understanding of what was going on than a Shep. My best friend and roommate was a golden retriever that took road trips with me, went pub-crawling in New Orleans with me, went camping with me etc, and after 7yrs together he and I still didn't have the same depth of understanding that I had with a Shepherd. And I fucking LOVE the retrievers, it's just a different kind of relationship.
I certainly won't say that other breeds can't "read" a person, and didn't mean to imply that at all. If you have a dog that will WARN you of a threat then be grateful for it and use it to your advantage. I just don't count on an unproven dog actually DEFENDING it's family or property. That's not a jab at anyone's dog or any breed. My Labs and Retrievers were great at letting me know when someone was coming up the hill to my house. That's all I "expected" of them, I knew that no matter how much they barked or how much they loved me, they were NOT going to attack someone and fight them to the death to defend me. They just weren't. Those dogs and I loved each other more than most people I've known and even some of my relatives, but it wasn't in them to actually fight someone for me.
We raised the point earlier in the thread that there are a lot of people with GSDs, Mals, Dutchies, Pits, Cane Corsos, Rotties, Dobies, whatever that will also NOT defend them. There are those breeds of dogs plus some (giant Schnauzers etc) that compete in dog-sport and look great on equipment in prey drive that won't actually fight for their owners and certainly won't bite a true bad guy on command. It's the "don't call him a cowboy till you've seen him ride" approach. Unless a dog has proven he will, then he won't, is the way I look at it. That's not even a criticism, it's just having a realistic expectation.
I'd hate to have someone be convinced their $100k dog is going to solve all their problems during a break in only to be sorely disappointed.
Having owned and/or lived with a LOT of dogs of varying breeds, I can just say that from my own experience I have yet to ever have a dog with a better intuitive understanding of what was going on than a Shep. My best friend and roommate was a golden retriever that took road trips with me, went pub-crawling in New Orleans with me, went camping with me etc, and after 7yrs together he and I still didn't have the same depth of understanding that I had with a Shepherd. And I fucking LOVE the retrievers, it's just a different kind of relationship.
It's possible you are over thinking this. I'll be brief, when a dog is engaged in a fight with man, He is using a combination of drives inherent in the breed, mental and physical toughness, along with the skills he's been conditioned with through TRAINING, and he's standing firm ready to fight man, because he knows he can win. He's been tested before, and there is no doubt in his mind he will win! It's that simple.
You write: "Been a dog lover/owner my whole life, and have never owned a dog that would flat out NOT want to protect me" wanting to protect you? What a dog wants, and what a dog WILL do, are two different things. How do you know what your dog will do in a situation he's never been in before. Growling and barking is not protecting.
To your other question, I never get a puppy (8 weeks old). I prefer to get a untrained dog between the age of 6-12 months.
Hope I was able to explain in in an understandable manner.
Be well.
ETA: Bonding comes first, then training.
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Hahaha, well at least we didn't contradict each other. Speaking of, how the hell have we managed to go 4 pages with a number of guys who "know dogs" without us arguing and fussing with each other? That's unheard of in this line of work.
Actually, if you look at the way a good number of threads go on the Hide, the fact that we've gone 4 pages of reasonable discussion, Q&A, and even some difference of opinion here and there without anyone going full-retard or blowing up may be a record on any topic.
I have GENUINELY enjoyed every bit of this thread, and have really enjoyed all of the questions and issues that have been raised and discussed. Another reason this is the forum I spend all my time on.
Hahaha, well at least we didn't contradict each other. Speaking of, how the hell have we managed to go 4 pages with a number of guys who "know dogs" without us arguing and fussing with each other? That's unheard of in this line of work.
Actually, if you look at the way a good number of threads go on the Hide, the fact that we've gone 4 pages of reasonable discussion, Q&A, and even some difference of opinion here and there without anyone going full-retard or blowing up may be a record on any topic.
I have GENUINELY enjoyed every bit of this thread, and have really enjoyed all of the questions and issues that have been raised and discussed. Another reason this is the forum I spend all my time on.
How does it go: If you put three dog trainers in a room, the only thing two of them will agree on,
Is how the third one doesn't know a thing.
Enjoyable thread.
Yep, that's exactly how it goes, at least on a good day. We've all had those days where it was each of the 3 convinced the other 2 had no idea what they were talking about.
same can be said of breeders, shooters, cars, guns. the list goes on and on.
bogey, the ting about this thread is the seemingly mutual respect among us also. i try not to get butt hurt about someone else's take on dogs, or breeds. i also think that the few of us are trying to give as much info as possible so that others can make better informed decisions.
like myself i like some of the things ceasar milan teaches. not all, but he explains it to people and it is much easier to show someone then explain after. i don't agree with many of his ideas, such as spay and neuter young dogs such as 6 months old. i do agree of fixing a dog. speaking with my wife i concluded that if it were required to just do ofa/ penn hips on breeding dogs, my guess is 70% of breeders would quit doing it. not because it's hard to do but because it would take away from their profit and limit there dogs severely. but such a simple idea would bring dog breeding to such a higher level here in the states it would be unheard of
regards kenny
bogey, the ting about this thread is the seemingly mutual respect among us also. i try not to get butt hurt about someone else's take on dogs, or breeds. i also think that the few of us are trying to give as much info as possible so that others can make better informed decisions.
like myself i like some of the things ceasar milan teaches. not all, but he explains it to people and it is much easier to show someone then explain after. i don't agree with many of his ideas, such as spay and neuter young dogs such as 6 months old. i do agree of fixing a dog. speaking with my wife i concluded that if it were required to just do ofa/ penn hips on breeding dogs, my guess is 70% of breeders would quit doing it. not because it's hard to do but because it would take away from their profit and limit there dogs severely. but such a simple idea would bring dog breeding to such a higher level here in the states it would be unheard of
regards kenny
As someone expecting to bring home a working line GSD puppy within the next few months, I'd be curious if any of the three professionals here recommend a particular style of training for basic home obedience, or a school in the southeast that teaches obedience/protection. I've purchased several of the Michael Ellis videos from Leerburg, and while I couldn't justify attending his school in CA, having a recommendation for a school in the SC/NC/GA area that could offer real-time correction (to me), would be helpful.
Again, this dog will not be used in a professional capacity. Having trained dogs to basic commands and "good manners" previously, being able to attend a course or series of weekend courses to keep me on track would be desirable.
Again, this dog will not be used in a professional capacity. Having trained dogs to basic commands and "good manners" previously, being able to attend a course or series of weekend courses to keep me on track would be desirable.
lazlo,
i live on the al/ga border by columbus. the best club around i know of, is chattahoochee sch club, just soth of atlanta is another club that is said to be very good. i know NC has a few clubs and good breeders.
this is a link, your in the south eastern region. i would check as many as you can out United Schutzhund Clubs of America ? Clubs
remember this it's not about what members have accomplished, it's about what club and members are willing to help you achieve what you want ! find the people that fit you. also remember, never let anyone talk you into training in a manner you are not comfortable with! members can also give you much insight into what dogs/ bloodlines may work best with you. i know you said you want to do ob and protection, don't rule out doing tracking it is an integral part of training and can be better than both the others put together to mentally drain a dog and make him more enjoyable to be around.
kenny
i live on the al/ga border by columbus. the best club around i know of, is chattahoochee sch club, just soth of atlanta is another club that is said to be very good. i know NC has a few clubs and good breeders.
this is a link, your in the south eastern region. i would check as many as you can out United Schutzhund Clubs of America ? Clubs
remember this it's not about what members have accomplished, it's about what club and members are willing to help you achieve what you want ! find the people that fit you. also remember, never let anyone talk you into training in a manner you are not comfortable with! members can also give you much insight into what dogs/ bloodlines may work best with you. i know you said you want to do ob and protection, don't rule out doing tracking it is an integral part of training and can be better than both the others put together to mentally drain a dog and make him more enjoyable to be around.
kenny
I have truly enjoyed this thread. I have learned a lot, and I was not completely ignorant to start with. I would particularly like to thank ImportGSD, Toebuster, and Bogeybrown for how they have shared their knowledge on this thread.
I have the flu and am running a bit of a fever, headache and cough. PITA, so sometimes I have to read things two or three times to get to where I understand them. Weird thing I picked up some stuff reading this thread this way that I probably would have missed otherwise. The thing I noticed about the guys I mentioned above is they always seem to be on a pretty even keel. My Dad was like that and He was also real good with all kinds of animals, especially dogs. My Dads dogs always seemed to do what ever he wanted without him having to put any particular time or effort into it. Their has been a lot of talk about training the dogs. I know military/police working dog handlers are selected from large body of men, so the handlers can be screened as carefully as the dogs.
Here on the Snipers Hide us members screen our selves, and we may have biases or unrealistic expectations. I guess what I am really wondering is how important is the temperament of the owner? Does the temperament of the owner make different temperament dogs more or less suitable? Are there some people who (while they might love their pets and properly care for them) will never have a successful relationship with a working dog?
I have the flu and am running a bit of a fever, headache and cough. PITA, so sometimes I have to read things two or three times to get to where I understand them. Weird thing I picked up some stuff reading this thread this way that I probably would have missed otherwise. The thing I noticed about the guys I mentioned above is they always seem to be on a pretty even keel. My Dad was like that and He was also real good with all kinds of animals, especially dogs. My Dads dogs always seemed to do what ever he wanted without him having to put any particular time or effort into it. Their has been a lot of talk about training the dogs. I know military/police working dog handlers are selected from large body of men, so the handlers can be screened as carefully as the dogs.
Here on the Snipers Hide us members screen our selves, and we may have biases or unrealistic expectations. I guess what I am really wondering is how important is the temperament of the owner? Does the temperament of the owner make different temperament dogs more or less suitable? Are there some people who (while they might love their pets and properly care for them) will never have a successful relationship with a working dog?
^^^^^^+1
This thread gas been great. I've always been a dog lover and always enjoy watching a good dog work. This thread has taught me so much about these breeds and protection/service dogs. I lost my beagle to cancer in march, 2011 and have not brought myself to replace him yet. Reading all of the great things the pros have said about the GSD, really has me considering one for the future. When I get out to the country, I'd like to have a good dog like that to watch my family when I'm not there. Plus I really need a buddy...
Thanks again for all the info GSD, bogey, toe man, and others.
This thread gas been great. I've always been a dog lover and always enjoy watching a good dog work. This thread has taught me so much about these breeds and protection/service dogs. I lost my beagle to cancer in march, 2011 and have not brought myself to replace him yet. Reading all of the great things the pros have said about the GSD, really has me considering one for the future. When I get out to the country, I'd like to have a good dog like that to watch my family when I'm not there. Plus I really need a buddy...
Thanks again for all the info GSD, bogey, toe man, and others.
I dont want to be a killjoy here because I LOVE dogs and will never be without one, but you need to be realistic. Alerting me to the threat is the number one function, and anything they can do after that to delay a threat is icing on the cake no matter what happens to the dog. You can pay lots of money for a protection dog that a brute moron with a gun can defeat in seconds if he isn't that scared of dogs, but if the dog lets you know about the threat and gives you time to respond with force of your own then they served their prupose. The point is, your family better be hiding with more to defend themselves with than a dog.
A protection dog, at whatever level of ability, should be part of a plan, not THE plan.
Great thread.
Kenny, I hear you on the OFA expense, which is why I steer people to EU imports since a lot of the concerns are already handled through their breeding programs.
Lazlo, see if you can find some videos on "Clear Signals" dog training. Like ANY system of dog training, take what works for you and work it into what you already have. The benefit is that it removes a lot of the conflict between the dog and handler. The military has actually started incorporating components of it into their programs at Lackland. Nothing works all the time for all the dogs, but most of us are always looking for the next tool to put in the box.
Diverdon, you nailed a huge component by zeroing in on the handler. I'd made mention of it, and got into the handler component in some PMs with some different members. But yeah, the handler and his temperament is a HUGE component of the dog's temperament. I knew a woman that had a fiercely aggressive Golden Retriever. The dog died and she got another one, which was ALSO crazy aggressive (not in a good way). She asked me what I thought was wrong and I (politely as possible) told her that it was HER. Two dogs from different bloodlines across several years acting completely inappropriately for their breed was an owner issue, not a dog issue. A good handler/owner can take a dog with issues and really bring them up, and of course an unstable or misguided handler can pass that along to the dog. With professional dog handlers we talk about things "running down the leash" where the handler's mood, attitude, energy, etc transmits to the dog through the leash, and you see it quite a bit.
Ky, I don't think any of us disagree with you. There was some discussion about that at the beginning of the thread and I mentioned it a couple of posts ago. No one serious about the protection of their family should take a one-sided approach, whether it be depending on an alarm, or a dog, or a gun, or a cell phone. Each person needs to evaluate what works best for them within their means and mindsets and come up with a multi-tiered approach. For some people a dog fits and for some it doesn't at all. Most in the discussion have fallen somewhere between wanting a dog as an early warning at one end to wanting a dog that's more actively involved in their defense on the other. Even when I had a patrol dog in the house, I told my wife that the plan didn't change. Whatever the dog did was extra, but she was still to get to her position of advantage with her gun/s and call for help. If the responding officers found a house full of dead people with bite marks rather than bullet holes in them, it was a bonus. But there had better be a house full of dead people one way or another.
Lazlo, see if you can find some videos on "Clear Signals" dog training. Like ANY system of dog training, take what works for you and work it into what you already have. The benefit is that it removes a lot of the conflict between the dog and handler. The military has actually started incorporating components of it into their programs at Lackland. Nothing works all the time for all the dogs, but most of us are always looking for the next tool to put in the box.
Diverdon, you nailed a huge component by zeroing in on the handler. I'd made mention of it, and got into the handler component in some PMs with some different members. But yeah, the handler and his temperament is a HUGE component of the dog's temperament. I knew a woman that had a fiercely aggressive Golden Retriever. The dog died and she got another one, which was ALSO crazy aggressive (not in a good way). She asked me what I thought was wrong and I (politely as possible) told her that it was HER. Two dogs from different bloodlines across several years acting completely inappropriately for their breed was an owner issue, not a dog issue. A good handler/owner can take a dog with issues and really bring them up, and of course an unstable or misguided handler can pass that along to the dog. With professional dog handlers we talk about things "running down the leash" where the handler's mood, attitude, energy, etc transmits to the dog through the leash, and you see it quite a bit.
Ky, I don't think any of us disagree with you. There was some discussion about that at the beginning of the thread and I mentioned it a couple of posts ago. No one serious about the protection of their family should take a one-sided approach, whether it be depending on an alarm, or a dog, or a gun, or a cell phone. Each person needs to evaluate what works best for them within their means and mindsets and come up with a multi-tiered approach. For some people a dog fits and for some it doesn't at all. Most in the discussion have fallen somewhere between wanting a dog as an early warning at one end to wanting a dog that's more actively involved in their defense on the other. Even when I had a patrol dog in the house, I told my wife that the plan didn't change. Whatever the dog did was extra, but she was still to get to her position of advantage with her gun/s and call for help. If the responding officers found a house full of dead people with bite marks rather than bullet holes in them, it was a bonus. But there had better be a house full of dead people one way or another.
KYpatriot,
i like you believe the same. i often explain this to buyers. many people do not like to hear that their loving pet/protector may pass over the rainbow bridge for them. i explain it to them as i was in the army and would do the same for my men and they felt the same for me. i told them the dog is not doing it because you ask him to, most of the time he is doing it to protect ''his'' family. i also tell them that if the have the dog with the children all the time they may want to put fido up before disciplining the kids. i have seen ppd defend the kids from their own parents. i laughed and said well a threat is a threat. don't get mad at the dog, he is doing his job
the dog like training is another tool for many of us. albeit we love them, they also serve a great purpose in our lives. also keep in mind that including the dog in your plan, you can incorporate it into and i advise people to train as you plan to fight ! have the dog there, the more he is around you and your training, you will be amazed how in ''tune'' with you they are as bogey and others have stated. not only can they alert you to someone's presence, they can take you to them also. alert you to childrens friends that have less than stellar habits, such as drugs. my pack will consist of a drug dog, explosives/ weapons dogs, protection dogs, search and rescue dogs/ tracking dogs. there are uses many don't even think of, how bout you can teach them to track that deer or other animal your trying to find as he didn't go straight down as you planned . the only thing holding anyone back is your own imagination.
when i was instructing at benning, we taught my dog to find lost students on the land nav site. almost anything you think of is possible. it's just a matter of teaching your dog what you want.
sincerely kenny
i like you believe the same. i often explain this to buyers. many people do not like to hear that their loving pet/protector may pass over the rainbow bridge for them. i explain it to them as i was in the army and would do the same for my men and they felt the same for me. i told them the dog is not doing it because you ask him to, most of the time he is doing it to protect ''his'' family. i also tell them that if the have the dog with the children all the time they may want to put fido up before disciplining the kids. i have seen ppd defend the kids from their own parents. i laughed and said well a threat is a threat. don't get mad at the dog, he is doing his job
the dog like training is another tool for many of us. albeit we love them, they also serve a great purpose in our lives. also keep in mind that including the dog in your plan, you can incorporate it into and i advise people to train as you plan to fight ! have the dog there, the more he is around you and your training, you will be amazed how in ''tune'' with you they are as bogey and others have stated. not only can they alert you to someone's presence, they can take you to them also. alert you to childrens friends that have less than stellar habits, such as drugs
. my pack will consist of a drug dog, explosives/ weapons dogs, protection dogs, search and rescue dogs/ tracking dogs. there are uses many don't even think of, how bout you can teach them to track that deer or other animal your trying to find as he didn't go straight down as you planned . the only thing holding anyone back is your own imagination.when i was instructing at benning, we taught my dog to find lost students on the land nav site. almost anything you think of is possible. it's just a matter of teaching your dog what you want.
sincerely kenny
KYpatriot,
i like you believe the same. i often explain this to buyers. many people do not like to hear that their loving pet/protector may pass over the rainbow bridge for them. i explain it to them as i was in the army and would do the same for my men and they felt the same for me. i told them the dog is not doing it because you ask him to, most of the time he is doing it to protect ''his'' family. i also tell them that if the have the dog with the children all the time they may want to put fido up before disciplining the kids. i have seen ppd defend the kids from their own parents. i laughed and said well a threat is a threat. don't get mad at the dog, he is doing his job
the dog like training is another tool for many of us. albeit we love them, they also serve a great purpose in our lives. also keep in mind that including the dog in your plan, you can incorporate it into and i advise people to train as you plan to fight ! have the dog there, the more he is around you and your training, you will be amazed how in ''tune'' with you they are as bogey and others have stated. not only can they alert you to someone's presence, they can take you to them also. alert you to childrens friends that have less than stellar habits, such as drugs. my pack will consist of a drug dog, explosives/ weapons dogs, protection dogs, search and rescue dogs/ tracking dogs. there are uses many don't even think of, how bout you can teach them to track that deer or other animal your trying to find as he didn't go straight down as you planned . the only thing holding anyone back is your own imagination.
when i was instructing at benning, we taught my dog to find lost students on the land nav site. almost anything you think of is possible. it's just a matter of teaching your dog what you want.
sincerely kenny
i like you believe the same. i often explain this to buyers. many people do not like to hear that their loving pet/protector may pass over the rainbow bridge for them. i explain it to them as i was in the army and would do the same for my men and they felt the same for me. i told them the dog is not doing it because you ask him to, most of the time he is doing it to protect ''his'' family. i also tell them that if the have the dog with the children all the time they may want to put fido up before disciplining the kids. i have seen ppd defend the kids from their own parents. i laughed and said well a threat is a threat. don't get mad at the dog, he is doing his job
the dog like training is another tool for many of us. albeit we love them, they also serve a great purpose in our lives. also keep in mind that including the dog in your plan, you can incorporate it into and i advise people to train as you plan to fight ! have the dog there, the more he is around you and your training, you will be amazed how in ''tune'' with you they are as bogey and others have stated. not only can they alert you to someone's presence, they can take you to them also. alert you to childrens friends that have less than stellar habits, such as drugs
. my pack will consist of a drug dog, explosives/ weapons dogs, protection dogs, search and rescue dogs/ tracking dogs. there are uses many don't even think of, how bout you can teach them to track that deer or other animal your trying to find as he didn't go straight down as you planned . the only thing holding anyone back is your own imagination.when i was instructing at benning, we taught my dog to find lost students on the land nav site. almost anything you think of is possible. it's just a matter of teaching your dog what you want.
sincerely kenny
Many years (and injuries) ago, I was heavily involved with Gracie Jiujitsu and the instructors from the neighboring states used to stay at my house one weekend a month when they'd come in town to teach a seminar. One of them was a complete stoner, great guy, just liked the weed too much. My rule was that a grown man could do whatever he wanted but not in my house, so when the guys would show up for the weekend my drug dog met them at the door. The stoner saw the dog and carried one of his tote-bags back to his car. No drama necessary.
As for being limited only by imagination, I taught a Golden Retriever to find the TV remote since I got tired of it always getting lost. That dog also learned scouting to find my nieces when they'd play in the woods by the house. Almost no training necessary, she liked them and wanted to find them, so we made it into a game and it gave my wife huge piece of mind.
There's an amazing kennel in SC that is now training dogs to detect wheat gluten in food for people with Celiac disease. That had never been done before by anyone, and they took on the challenge for a mother and son with the disorder. That red lab I mentioned a while ago that I'm convinced could have done Schutzhund came out of that kennel.
Kenny doesn't believe me, but my next dog is going to be a PET dammit!! But I have no doubt that the dog he gets for me is going to be capable of a helluva lot more than that.
As for being limited only by imagination, I taught a Golden Retriever to find the TV remote since I got tired of it always getting lost. That dog also learned scouting to find my nieces when they'd play in the woods by the house. Almost no training necessary, she liked them and wanted to find them, so we made it into a game and it gave my wife huge piece of mind.
There's an amazing kennel in SC that is now training dogs to detect wheat gluten in food for people with Celiac disease. That had never been done before by anyone, and they took on the challenge for a mother and son with the disorder. That red lab I mentioned a while ago that I'm convinced could have done Schutzhund came out of that kennel.
Kenny doesn't believe me, but my next dog is going to be a PET dammit!! But I have no doubt that the dog he gets for me is going to be capable of a helluva lot more than that.
I'm enjoying the discussions back and forth, and it seems to have been quite some time for a discourse such as this. Thanks for that. Here's a question, though.
With all the dropping of names/breeds of (ppd) dogs that has been done here, I've yet to read anyone say anything about the Hungarian Kuvasz. And that leads me to ask, why? Anyone?
With all the dropping of names/breeds of (ppd) dogs that has been done here, I've yet to read anyone say anything about the Hungarian Kuvasz. And that leads me to ask, why? Anyone?
Sean,
there are many breeds capable. we just choose to talk about the most common. giant schnauzers are another i like, and i have a friend with 2 imports that would put most ''competition'' dogs to shame. he was the first american to raise a pup from germany and title him sch3,ipo3, fh2. australian shepherds are also capable, doberman, bouvier, there are quite a few actually, i'll copy the list of breeds from working dog
Belgian Shepherd Dog,German Shepherd Dog,Giant Schnauzer,Airedale Terrier,Dobermann,Boxer,Hovawart,Mixed breed,Rottweiler,Berger de Beauce, Bouvier des Flandres,Dutch Shepherd Dog, Briard, Bouvier des Ardennes and this is not all of them. many terrier breeds to include i've seen a jack russel do an ipo1, minature pinscher doing ring sport. any dog with solid nerves and drives that can be shaped are capable, it's just a matter of figuring out how. i like to believe any well bred dog is capable of pretty much whatever you want to do. with the correct raising, and training almost anything is possible. sorry if i left anyone favorite out.
regards kenny
there are many breeds capable. we just choose to talk about the most common. giant schnauzers are another i like, and i have a friend with 2 imports that would put most ''competition'' dogs to shame. he was the first american to raise a pup from germany and title him sch3,ipo3, fh2. australian shepherds are also capable, doberman, bouvier, there are quite a few actually, i'll copy the list of breeds from working dog
Belgian Shepherd Dog,German Shepherd Dog,Giant Schnauzer,Airedale Terrier,Dobermann,Boxer,Hovawart,Mixed breed,Rottweiler,Berger de Beauce, Bouvier des Flandres,Dutch Shepherd Dog, Briard, Bouvier des Ardennes and this is not all of them. many terrier breeds to include i've seen a jack russel do an ipo1, minature pinscher doing ring sport. any dog with solid nerves and drives that can be shaped are capable, it's just a matter of figuring out how. i like to believe any well bred dog is capable of pretty much whatever you want to do. with the correct raising, and training almost anything is possible.
sorry if i left anyone favorite out.regards kenny
I've got nothing. There are a number of breeds that show up at dog-sport that we just don't see on the working side. I'm not doubting that there may be other breeds in far corners of the world that are worthwhile, in fact a lot of countries have breeds that were originally used to guard hearth and home. Some of them have had the working lines bred out of them by pet breeders, others just don't exist in reasonable quantities for export. We may look at 100-150 dogs to select 20-25. How many kennels in the world could show a buyer 150 Kuvasz for him to select 20 from?
By this point the big 3 are known quantities and the guys breeding/buying/selling them have a fair idea of what they're getting. With the time and money involved in producing a working dog, there's little incentive to go off the reservation with something "new".
As I said, I have ZERO firsthand experience with the Kuvasz, just offering sort of a generic explanation of why a number of breeds just aren't used without getting into specific reasons for each.
Sorry if that's not tremendously helpful.
Ask yourself "why do I never see any reputable military or LE K9 units using the Kuvasz?" These units will use something better if it comes along. That's a hint.
ripped off
Unfortunateley its not a unique story,...there are many vendors that sell "Schutzhund" dogs along with others as so called PPD's at quite fantastic prices. each year at the KNPV National Championship in Holland we watch and note the deals being done. If the buyer is from the USA then the price doubles and they rarely get the best dogs in any case. In reality, those that take the time and effort to establish their own contacts will find that a green prospect is a few hundred not a few thousand USD, with plenty of excellent stock to choose from.
So many dogs are now exported that it is having a negative effect on the quality available. KNPV too is now becoming more a sport with buyers wanting the biddable dogs not the land sharks of old!
Do your home work, don't get ripped off and spend the $75k you save on all the expensive shooting items you still wanted!
Unfortunateley its not a unique story,...there are many vendors that sell "Schutzhund" dogs along with others as so called PPD's at quite fantastic prices. each year at the KNPV National Championship in Holland we watch and note the deals being done. If the buyer is from the USA then the price doubles and they rarely get the best dogs in any case. In reality, those that take the time and effort to establish their own contacts will find that a green prospect is a few hundred not a few thousand USD, with plenty of excellent stock to choose from.
So many dogs are now exported that it is having a negative effect on the quality available. KNPV too is now becoming more a sport with buyers wanting the biddable dogs not the land sharks of old!
Do your home work, don't get ripped off and spend the $75k you save on all the expensive shooting items you still wanted!
Thanks for the responses, gents.
Surely you've noticed, I'm basically asking questions to keep the dialogue flowing. Wasn't trying to overthink a position, just that I feel the average 'mutt' could surprise alot of folks with what they are capable of, given the guidance and opportunity. I will agree that certain breeds are, by design, 'better' at certain types of work, just feel that a canine's desire to 'protect' is something more of an ingrained canine trait, in the most broad interpretation. Happy to see that difference of opinion can be shared without it eroding to a shitstorm...
Much respect for the dog trainers here , and kudos to the dogs we choose to include in our lives.
Carry on!
Surely you've noticed, I'm basically asking questions to keep the dialogue flowing. Wasn't trying to overthink a position, just that I feel the average 'mutt' could surprise alot of folks with what they are capable of, given the guidance and opportunity. I will agree that certain breeds are, by design, 'better' at certain types of work, just feel that a canine's desire to 'protect' is something more of an ingrained canine trait, in the most broad interpretation. Happy to see that difference of opinion can be shared without it eroding to a shitstorm...
Much respect for the dog trainers here , and kudos to the dogs we choose to include in our lives.
Carry on!
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