Protection dogs ?

[bogeybrown]

Hey Emouse, great of you to join the conversation. The company I work for has probably purchased in the range of 700 dogs (likely more) from Europe in the past several years, and the quality has clearly declined, largely because our vendors have figured out they can buy lesser dogs and still get the same price for them.
I'm interested to see what's going to happen in the next year or so with the European kennels now that the war is drawing down and demand is going to dwindle. We're in the process of shipping over 100 dogs back to the U.S. at the moment, with another 2-300 going home by the end of the year. Some of those will go to LE and some will be "retired" to private homes.

For 12yrs now the demand has been so disproportionate that someone would buy damn near anything out of Europe for higher prices. I'm expecting the prices out of Europe to come WAY down once the demand dries up or at least returns to "normal", but it certainly wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

 

[bogeybrown]

Knockem,

You're absolutely right about the mutts. I think it was U.S. Customs that was intentionally crossing Labs with something else (can't remember what at the moment) to produce detection dogs that were better than the sum of their parts. We've all had or seen the lovable mutt family dog that had a great combination of traits and were capable of fantastic stuff.

We've hit it a few times in the conversation, it just comes down to "known quantities" when selecting puppies and green dogs for a working program. When we deal with known breeds from known breeders from known bloodlines we reduce the variables. Now world champions still produce "dud" puppies, which is why you can by a great pedigree puppy out of Europe for a few hundred dollars, because that pupply isn't a guaranteed performer, BUT we at least have a baseline for comparison within the breed.
With a mutt, typically you have to wait and see what it turns into as an adolelscent or even adult to figure out what you've got. That's a lot of time to have into a dog before you know which direction to take him. The results also aren't repeatable for a dog program.

Now a number of agencies in the U.S. do run "pound puppy" programs where they literally screen dogs from the animal shelter and train them (mostly for detection work). But even with those programs, they're looking at the mutts for indications of the preferred breeds being present.

 

[knockemdown]

bogey, Is there no way to selective breed and maintain the quality of dogs in this country, given the amount of 'well bred' imported stock that has been brought over?
What happening to these 'well bred' imports? Are domestic breeders, as a whole, seeking dollars over quality, and employing liberal breeding practices to water down this perceived superior European stock?
IS is that hard to find good PPD blood so elusive this country, that its acutally more advantageous to fly a dog halfway around the world, than it is to find one here in the States? If so, that doesn't say much for the foundation stock of a particular breed, or for the breeders behind them...

Or, is importing dogs more a factor of the allure it holds to the potential buyer/owner, that they will be getting something 'special' from a dog bred, overseas?

I'm just having a hard time understanding the constant need to import, import, import. It would almast seem as if a dog turns to shit, if bred in this country? Whats the deal there, as I can't believe that? What's ruining these dogs, once they hit US soil? Are the domestic breeders that selfish and money hungry that they can't collectively maintain, or even further a breed, as a whole, in THIS country?

EDIT: agree & understand above post, typing as you were!

 

[bogeybrown]

There ARE some breeders in the U.S. producing good dogs, but they're doing it with European imports as their breeding stock, so I'll leave it up to you if that counts as an American or European GSD.

There are some SUBSTANTIAL differences between US and Eu dogs, and the guys involved in the overseas selection can hit them better than I can, but to simplify things:

American dogs have largely been bred for pets or show dogs. The US has actually altered the physical composition of the GSD to where it's essentially now a sub-breed of the real thing. The most noticeable difference is the dog's topline (the line of it's back and haunches). The US dogs tend to have the "show hip" or "roach back" where their back slants from the front shoulder noticeably downward to the rear resulting in the dog looking like it's almost squatting when it stands upright. This was fucking criminal on the part of US breeders, but it's apparently what the AKC wants to see in a show dog (IDK, I have no fucking use for the AKC). American breeders have traditionally paid VERY little to NO attention to the dog's drives of suitability for WORK. They just bred dogs that looked a certain way.

The black and tan saddle that Americans associate with what a "German Shepherd looks like" is another pretty good indication of what's been done to the breed. The sable coat is the dominant gene in the GSD, all other coat variations are recessive or the result of a masking gene (the whites have a masking gene that blocks coat pigment). The fact that most Americans have either never seen a sable GSD, or at least don't recognize a sable dog as a GSD should tell you a bunch. If you've never SEEN the DOMINANT trait in an animal, then WTF does that say about the breeding process. Again, looks over performance.

There's some other areas such as head size, torso proportion, overall body size that differ. In short, the American pet and show breeders took a working dog and bred all of that out it at the expense of the dog's utility and athleticism.

The Europeans draw a line between show breeding and work breeding. The dogs from working lines retain the straighter back (makes it easy to spot the dogs from Eu lines a lot of the time) and their breeding is centered around the drives and temperament of the dogs they produce for the suitability of for WORK. As I mentioned, there are some body dimension differences as well. The Europeans (reputable ones at least) do NOT breed dogs with hip/elbow issues as these are genetic traits passed on to puppies. Substandard dogs are rated as such and either destroyed or used as pets, but they aren't granted breeding privileges (Toebuster, Kenny, Emouse, someone correct me on that please?).

EVERY single American knows someone with a dog with hip dysplasia, every single one of us is familiar with it. Here's the shit of that: we could essentially ELIMINATE hip dysplasia in the U.S. (in pure breds) within 20 yrs or less simply by requiring an OFA of the parents prior to allowing the breeding to take place. Hip dysplasia is genetic, it's preventable, but US breeders either can't recoup the money involved in screening the parents or just don't give a fuck because the dog and it's owner are long gone by the time the problem arrives and the breeder has cashed his check. The kennels in Eu make their money by being known as producing solid working dogs. The financial incentive is there to produce quality dogs because if they don't they lose business to a competitor with proven healthy dogs.

SO, if you're looking at spending a good bit of money on a dog that needs to WORK for a good portion of it's life, do you take your chances with what MAY be an OKAY line from American dogs, or do you go to the source, where the SV more tightly controls who can breed with what and sets an actual meaningful standard for the dogs?

ETA: I tried to attach some pics of the differences, but it was too much of a PITA, so here's a link that shows some pics of show vs working line dogs, the physical differences are very clear once you see them side by side. You'll never look at a US GSD the same way again after seeing the "Real GSDs".

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/for...traight-back-gsd-and-roach-back-dog-look-like

 

[Yeller1]

"I dont want to be a killjoy here because I LOVE dogs and will never be without one, but you need to be realistic. Alerting me to the threat is the number one function, and anything they can do after that to delay a threat is icing on the cake no matter what happens to the dog. You can pay lots of money for a protection dog that a brute moron with a gun can defeat in seconds if he isn't that scared of dogs, but if the dog lets you know about the threat and gives you time to respond with force of your own then they served their prupose. The point is, your family better be hiding with more to defend themselves with than a dog.
A protection dog, at whatever level of ability, should be part of a plan, not THE plan."

I agree 100%. I have owned guns my whole life however my wife is not comfortable with them. The fool who was in my yard could have easily disposed of any dog as he was armed. I am still looking to get a guard do though as my lab who I love, doesn't even bark. Aside from that my lab will be with me on hunting trips. I want more than just a "watch" dog though, I want a "guard" dog as just one layer to protection for my family. I want a dog that will willingly engage with a suspect if necessary. Growing up walking the alleys with my buddies there were a countless number of dogs that would run out and charge the gate. What I discovered though was if I ran at them and rattled the gate most would retreat and a few would ratchet up the intensity and try to go through the gate. One breed I looked into was the Cane Corso but they are to big. There is a reason the police, secret service, military etc use Mals, Dutch Shepherds, and GSDs.

 

[Import_gsd]

hey knockem, it is only possible to breed to a standard if there is a standard in place like in europe, or the breeders hold theirselves to a standard. i know of less than 10 great breeders here in the states. i had threw it out there before but didn't get into it specifically. most euro breeders only have a few dogs, 5-6 roughly. and stud males are plentiful and not as far away as here in the usa. most breeders here buy titled dogs and then breed them. but they don't care what their weakness's are or to improve on the breed. they just want money. anything over 1200$ for a puppy is ridiculous! period.but i know breeders charging 1800-2000$ a pup and have waiting list's. i wouldn't take a pup from them if they gave it too me! then there are the kraftwerk k9's, and kreative kennels out there. these people are a damn joke. i actually bought a young dog from kreative, Cent Aritar Bastet, dog bred in cz republic. super pedigree. they said '' cent is just a normal dog'' he doesn't have the drive for ''sport''. well Cent now lives with mirga, and she has his IPO2, V scores in all 3 phases. the dog was afraid of the ''helper'' because they whipped his ass trying to make him more ''aggressive''. dog is wonderful, i knew it and that they had no idea. i bought him extremely cheap. look at most breeders here in the usa and the # of dogs they have and # of litters they produce! if it's more than a few a year then they are shit breeders and in it for the money!
As for going to europe to buy, no i cannot get the same quality here! i also am going to talk to a few knowledgable breeders about their programs, and train with them. the AKC and other registry's and their ''requirements for breeding. then look up the FCI, which is the international breed org. look at their breed specific rules for breeding,
to be continued

kenny

 

[Import_gsd]

http://www.fci.be/circulaires/15-2013-annex-en.pdf

 

[Import_gsd]

knockem,
now as far as breeding other dogs, it can be done. but you have to selectively breed for 5-7 generations to achiev what you want. that being said, you need lots of friends and others into the breed to raise, train and allow you to breed with ''their '' dog. the problem with this is what if your friend has the best puppy and neuters or spays it? i have had friends that this has happened to. this is why i do not do ''co-owns'' even with a contract. so to answer your question yes it can be done. i will be doing this exact thing in the next few years with my shepherds. i know it takes time and also cooperation with a few others to do so. sitting here thinking, there is a breeder here on the east coast that bred a world champion doberman CARA dobermans, bred Cara's red sascha was a combo show/trial IDC seigerin.

regards kenny

 

[bogeybrown]

This is, without a doubt, the best thread I have participated in on the Hide. It's amazing how much knowledge you can soak up when everyone is TALKING and CONTRIBUTING something to a thread and sharing what they know. EVERY question asked so far has been valid and honest and contributed to a deeper discussion of the topic.

Thank you gentlemen, each of you, for what you've brought to the table.

 

[Import_gsd]

Yeller1,
be careful with your wording, a ''guard'' dog is not a family type of dog. generally people that are selling a guard dog is more of a sentry dog. which is a whole other animal, this is an animal that is more aggressive/ sharper dog. more of a 1 man/handler type of dog, and will bite anyone, man/woman/child. as that is what this type of dog is for. think of the dog that's inside a business/ compound when not open to the public.
i think many guys here if they could see a few of our dogs would then understand the difference we speak of. my wifes dog is from cz border patrol lines, she is social with our family, not so much with others. she carries with her a liability you must be aware of. she can not be around for rough play with kids, she is always outside with my kids when their playing, as long as friends are not over. she was a super mom and now a great nanny for pups. she was not good for sport! although bred correctly she would produce some SUPER dogs.
My male on the other hand is very ''clear headed'', he is social, loving, friendly with everyone, or atleast 99% of people. he has the presence that people know he can make them have a bad day if fucked with. he can turn on/off like a light switch. he does go from protection work to giving kisses to the girls. he produces very solid nerved puppies, the male i posted a pic with my wife is a son of his. at 9 weeks old i could walk him down the firing line on ft. benning while students were qualifying, he went everywhere as a puppy, petsmart, lowes/ home depot, stores, vets, up stairs, slick surfaces, dark places, and in water. this was done to ''climatize'' him to these experiences. i got him back because he wasn't ''aggressive enough''. now that i have him back he will get the proper training and stay here. 14 months at a friends that didn't do per say anything with him, he lived in a kennel, no obedience, or tracking. i did do tug work with him, but how the owner wanted it done. now i will do it my way, and he will be a solid dog in 3-4 months. i may have him titled in the cz republic as it's the only place to do the titles i want. which is the zvv2/3 , this is a trial using soley hand signals! no verbal commands. and i think a dog that low crawls on command is the coolest fucking thing ever. i will do any other titles myself and he will be cross trained as a ppd for the wife and kids!
18.05.2013 VS pro M ?R mláde?e Chodov ZVV 2 - YouTube
at 3;10 you will see what i'm saying.

sincerely kenny

 

[Toebuster]

Within the GSD breed, there are two lines, the working line, and the show line. I'm on my way out the door, so I'll just put some pics up. I'll be back later to discuss.

German show line:

My male, German working line:

My female, Czech working line:

American Shepherd: The only one not required to pass any temperament test, breed survey, earn any SCH/IPO etc. working titles, or even be free of hip dysplasia. Only the AKC (again, a GARBAGE organization), and the Canadian Kennel Club recognizes the American Shepherd.

 

[Pester]

+1 on this thread and there is a ton of good info.

Question: Do personal protection dogs generally need ongoing refresher training by a qualified trainer? Dont they end up going to the level of the owner over time? The reason I ask is there were some local folks that trained expensive dogs(Mals etc) and I loved watching them work. I saw a lot of times when an owner brought in a dog that was not doing its job any more.

The dogs we have are rescued pound puppies so I am no expert with dogs like the ones being mentioned. Now if you want to know how to gently train a semi retarded rescued black lab on how to bump your hand with its nose when it wants to be petted or 'needs' a treat I am your guy. lol.

Thanks gents....

 

[bogeybrown]

Hey Pester,

I too have spent some time with the lovable dogs that ride the short-bus to training and have a special fondness for my slow kids (although they've all passed away since I've been overseas).

To answer your question, yes, sustainment training is required to get the most out of your dog and to be fair to him and YOU. A trained PPD is an investment, and he/she was a selected for their abilities, so why let them go to waste. I like a combination of "ritualized" training where the dog works with a decoy on a certain set of skills as a measuring stick against past performance, gauging any deficiencies, and conducting remedial training if necessary. In addition to that I like scenario-based training such as just taking him for a walk and having a decoy with hidden equipment "attack" you or something along those lines (the possibilities are as endless as your imagination and can be very complex).

From our standpoint think in terms of working on marksmanship fundamentals and weapons manipulation on a square range before entering a live-fire shoot house.

 

[KYpatriot]

"I dont want to be a killjoy here because I LOVE dogs and will never be without one, but you need to be realistic. Alerting me to the threat is the number one function, and anything they can do after that to delay a threat is icing on the cake no matter what happens to the dog. You can pay lots of money for a protection dog that a brute moron with a gun can defeat in seconds if he isn't that scared of dogs, but if the dog lets you know about the threat and gives you time to respond with force of your own then they served their prupose. The point is, your family better be hiding with more to defend themselves with than a dog.
A protection dog, at whatever level of ability, should be part of a plan, not THE plan."

I agree 100%. I have owned guns my whole life however my wife is not comfortable with them. The fool who was in my yard could have easily disposed of any dog as he was armed. I am still looking to get a guard do though as my lab who I love, doesn't even bark. Aside from that my lab will be with me on hunting trips. I want more than just a "watch" dog though, I want a "guard" dog as just one layer to protection for my family. I want a dog that will willingly engage with a suspect if necessary. Growing up walking the alleys with my buddies there were a countless number of dogs that would run out and charge the gate. What I discovered though was if I ran at them and rattled the gate most would retreat and a few would ratchet up the intensity and try to go through the gate. One breed I looked into was the Cane Corso but they are to big. There is a reason the police, secret service, military etc use Mals, Dutch Shepherds, and GSDs.

Right on I was just making sure. Looks like this is the thread to point you to the right breeder. I like Corsos, have had only one though, very intimidating dogs. I think you would have to do some homeowrk there though because Corsos are also suffering from the "show" syndrome other breeds are. AKC showing eventually destroys breeds in my opinion. I keep Southern Black Mouth Curs here at my place, they are pretty gritty dogs they will literally kill themselves on a hog or game so they have lots of drive but I dont know how that would translate to formal protection training...especially since turning him off could be as important as turning them on in some circumstances and they don't have much back-up in them. I don't really know how far my big male Jethro would go, but I wouldn't want to chance him without a weapon. You would need to keep talking to some of the other guys on the thread like BB with the formal training experience. I love BMCs, smart and they will certainly bond with your family, especially the kids (mine doesn't like me to wrestle the kids) and with their nose there won't be anything around you won't know about. Mine won't even let birds land in the yard lol.

Good luck, a good dog is a wonderful thing. I grew up with GSDs, and would still have them if they weren't tremendous shedders since we have our dogs in the house. That is not that big a deal just have to keep on the grooming I wouldn't try to dissuade someone from a good GSD. The BMCs I have seem very much like them in intelligence and trainability, in fact the reason I have them is that they reminded me of the main GSD I grew up with. I will admit they are more stubborn about killing stuff since BMCs are hunters not herders. Any animal my dog can catch is in danger unless I tell him to "leave it" so that was something extra I had to deal with since I am out in the country with horses. Now he knows what he is not allowed to kill, in other words what is mine.

I also had a beautiful lab several years ago (we have a regular funny farm around here) that got stolen...an absolute teddy bear for the kids but just as happy to hold the flashlight for a burglar so I know what you mean. Finally got through that ridiculously long wore-me-out puppy stage and was just becoming a good dog too. Anyway, they could always get shot but no one is going to steal my BMCs I promise you that.

Another thing is this: drive can be a two-edged sword. Just like when I tell my kids there is no such thing as a free horse, a high drive dog takes a lot of work, and from everyone. They need a job, lots of exercise, and above all an entire family disciplined enough to show leadership before affection otherwise he/she will take over the place and cause problems. It has to be a commitment above just owning a "pet." I apologize if you have already been down this road before and have already considered this but I just know some people buy "trained" dogs thinking the work has already been done and then think they got a bad dog when all hell has broken loose in their house six months later and everyone including the dog is frustrated. Nothing wrong with the dog, they have an awesome dog but just didn't show it the CONSISTENT leadership they need to remained focused and happy and content with their place in the pack. My BMCs are smart and will pick up immediately on inconsistencies or weakness or passiveness and interpret that as a rules change. That is a whole nother subject but I mention it here because a high quality GSD is also going to have some serious drive and intelligence and will get frustrated with pack rules and boundaries that are constantly in flux. These dogs will love what they respect, not the other way around. They will feel unsettled and annoyed and less attached to a pack if they sense they need to keep stepping up to lead when the others aren't "pulling their weight." They may even attempt to discipline someone for it and then get angry and confused when you lash out at him for running over your wife for instance even though she was indicating he should take the lead.

To the trainers and breeders out there...what do you think of Leerburg's training method's for family dog owners? I like them and they have worked well for us but was wondering if the pros here would also recommend his training products for new dog owners or first time "high drive" dog owners. If not, what would you change or what other methods do you like?

Some pics of Jethro, not sure why they will only post as thumbnails:

 

[Import_gsd]

if you guys ever get a chance to go to a training seminar, there is tons of knowledge to be learned bart bellon is highly recommended. he takes a very realistic standpoint, that anyone can understand. he also trains using the whole toolbox, not just a single method. he's got some great youtube videos. you can also work just controlled aggression on your own, using a ball, or tug. i like the approach that your not training a dog to attack a man, but that a certain behavior is associated with the command. this is one of my favorite videos, it makes me want to go train with my dogs, as it shows what is possible with patience and effort.

Quattroporte vom Ottilienstein beim Training - YouTube


i'm going to train with this group when i get my female, her brother is being trained by steve currently. i can't wait.

sincerely kenny

 

[bogeybrown]

KY, you're not joking about the BMCs. Most folks don't even know what they are. I used to hunt next to Leroy Ladner's land in Ms. At one point he was credited with the creation of the BMC but who knows how accurate that is. We used them for coons and I got tired of climbing trees trying to get the dogs down after they'd go up after their prize. He was cross-breeding some with Mastiffs as catch dogs on hogs and those things were terrifying. A lot of them were sort of "break glass in case of game" dogs that I wouldn't have wanted as pets but couldn't have replaced for game-getters.

 

[KYpatriot]

LOL I know BB. Ladner dogs are a little whippier than the line mine's from, mine is a Murphy/Howard dog so he has some of that size you are talking about, about 100lb. They need a boss or they'll be yours I know that!

 

[Pester]

Hi Bogey,
Thanks for the reply and 'Short Bus' describes the dogs we have now. Last dog working dog we had was a Belgian Shep but we dont work cattle in the open any more so we do the rescue thing.

So is it normal when someone buys a high end dog there is a period of time when the new owner works with the dog under supervision and then they come back for follow up after the dog goes home with them? Also, when someone is buying a PPD do you try to match personalities? The reason I ask is, when I was watching some Mals work/compete some of the owners seemed a bit intimidated(afraid?) of their dogs and I wonder if that would lead to problems at home.

Clearly I am not so knowledgable about ppd's so my apologies for the remedial questions....
Thx

Hey Pester,

I too have spent some time with the lovable dogs that ride the short-bus to training and have a special fondness for my slow kids (although they've all passed away since I've been overseas).

To answer your question, yes, sustainment training is required to get the most out of your dog and to be fair to him and YOU. A trained PPD is an investment, and he/she was a selected for their abilities, so why let them go to waste. I like a combination of "ritualized" training where the dog works with a decoy on a certain set of skills as a measuring stick against past performance, gauging any deficiencies, and conducting remedial training if necessary. In addition to that I like scenario-based training such as just taking him for a walk and having a decoy with hidden equipment "attack" you or something along those lines (the possibilities are as endless as your imagination and can be very complex).

From our standpoint think in terms of working on marksmanship fundamentals and weapons manipulation on a square range before entering a live-fire shoot house.

 

[bogeybrown]

Pester,

I'll let Toebuster or Import-gsd (Kenny) respond as to what they do/recommend when they place a dog, but in a perfect world, yeah, your scenario would be what I strove for anyway.

As for matching dogs and owners to me it's absolutely paramount to a solid relationship. Good handlers can be successful with a range of dogs, but as I said on the first page of the thread, our personalities as owners/handlers tend to push us to one type of dog or another. A handler/owner with a strong dog he's afraid of can be a recipe for disaster and will typically end up with a bite. Classic example:

We had a handler in for training with a new dog (strong Mal) a few years ago. The instructors notice that the guy can't stay awake during the day and is dragging ass everywhere. This goes on for a few days and they finally call him in and ask him if he's up all night drinking, partying, etc. He comes clean and tells them that he's been sleeping in the bathtub of his hotel room because his dog took wouldn't kennel and had taken over the bed. Every time he tried to get to the bed the dog would challenge him, but the dog would LET him get in and out of the bathroom, so he was locking himself in there at night and sleeping in the tub. No shit, that story is now part of the training curriculum. So yeah, the match between dog and handler matters.

 

[Pester]

Thanks and sounds like the dog knew who was the leader in that relationship.

Interesting thread.

He comes clean and tells them that he's been sleeping in the bathtub of his hotel room because his dog took wouldn't kennel and had taken over the bed. Every time he tried to get to the bed the dog would challenge him, but the dog would LET him get in and out of the bathroom, so he was locking himself in there at night and sleeping in the tub. No shit, that story is now part of the training curriculum. So yeah, the match between dog and handler matters.

 

[Import_gsd]

Pester,
please understand most of those dogs are not pets also. most competition dogs are kennel dogs. many working police dogs are the same depending on the handler and dept. not all of these places require you to come do training with the dog, which is a lawsuit waiting to happen in my opinion. many people like bill at texoma will do follow-ups and offer training after you have the dog. many people try to set you up for success. but there is always possibility of conflict between dog and handler. i'm sure some of those handlers have been bitten by their dog, and that is why their gunshy. once a dog has bit you and wins, he is in charge, period! at that point the dog should go to a new handler. A good company/ breeder/ trainer will try to match the dog that we think will work best for you. that being said, i can lead a horse to water, can't make him drink it though. so if you want a ''certain color, or bloodline, then i can't make you buy the dog i know will work best for you. most guys here would do fine with a medium drive dog, sound temperment, willingness to please, ''easier to deal with'' dog. you don't need the meanest, nastiest dog. leave them for the guy that want's to prove something, and that something is he probably can't handle that dog! kypatriot is very correct with the statement the dog will love who he respects, not respect the one he loves! that is probably the best i've ever heard it explained, hope you don't mind i'm puttin that 1 in my speaches from now on .

Patriot,
Ed does know what he's doing. been in the game for quite some time. the only thing i don't like is you buy 1 video, and it talks more than 2/3 the time about what else you should buy from them. the 15-20 minutes of actual training is good, but i can't sit and watch all the other stuff. ed's training methods are proven, and he has a good following. that being said there are ALOT of great trainers out there. also look at ivan balbonov, you can watch training videos on his website. most of all though a good trainer can just read dogs, and that is what makes them good. it comes with working alot of different dogs with differing temperments. most people that i know around here thought i could read the dogs mind, i laugh, it's not that but i know how to pick up on things with the dogs posture. it's like reading wind, it's not that it's rocket science but comes with experience. you are also correct with the way you look at working dogs. they do better with structure. i say it's like being in the military. i like the structure, and the dogs do also. they are on a schedule here, they eat, train, go outside at certain times EVERY day! my dogs know when chow time is, and will let you know if you forget. it is a mindset and a commitment. my dogs wait at the door, they know that even my 20 mo old enters the house before them. they are last in the pack order and are perfectly fine with that, but it is consistent, from the time their born till they die at our house.

sincerely kenny

 

[Toebuster]

Yup, I've seen it as well, dudes that act that way usually have had their dogs come up the leash at them. They are constantly on edge, scared to go over the point of what the dog will tolerate....their dog has lost all respect for them at that point. Most dogs that are labeled "handler aggressive", are usually a product of big egos from handlers, that are too harsh, lack patience, and unfair to the dog, and push it in a corner, where the only way out is to fight back. Put these dogs with a better, understanding handler and you see them shine as a TEAM.

True story, there was a pet trainer, that got a really good Malinois with the intention to SCH title the dog. The dog had the perfect combination of prey/defense drive, hardness, and solid active aggression in bite work. Mr trainer having no experience with this type of dog, unfairly over corrected the dog for looking away during the heeling routine, (dog was still learning the routine at that point) the dog launched on him, paws on dudes chest, muzzle to face and just stared right "through" him. Dog was given to my friend that same day. They became an awesome team getting all SchI II III titles, trialed multiple times at Sch III.

In my view, calmer people do better with higher drive dogs, it lends to better control of the dog.

To clarify I don't place dogs, Sorry if it came off as if I do.

 

[PKRobbins]

Handling dogs, one has to learn patience. Or risk getting his ass bit.

I've seen a lot of dogs shut down as well from too much unneeded pressure

 

[Import_gsd]

toebuster,
i tell people there is no such thing as handler aggression. there are however handler adjustments i think many people deserve what they get. i have handled a few with less than stellar nerves, and i was sure they had bitten a handler before, so you must be aware of what's going on. usually a dog will signal you that it's coming. that's why i laugh when ceasar milan gets bit and the owners are all, oh i'm sorry are you ok. uh no it fricking hurts, even little dog bites hurt. if any of you were taught to kick,hit, swat at a dog or rub it's nose in pee or poop in the house, please do not try this with a ppd type dog.
PKRobbins, i usually try to recommend first time buyers of family protection type dogs not to get a puppy. i also see many people that think a female needs the same level of correction as a male, or same amount of pressure. females cannot take that in training, but i have seen some tough bitches in real life and would almost venture to say they are more vicious than most males in real life. i have seen many puppies ruined by bad training, handling, and just lack of knowledge on raising a dog of this type. for those of you new to this a dog that is going to be a working dog/ protection dog/ competition dog is always raised to win, to be confident, and just something as little as petting him/her at the wrong time can wreak havok on a puppy. most people want to cauddle the dog and tell him it's ok, which is the wrong thing to do. 1st of all never take a puppy somewhere you cannot control every aspect around him. Dog parks are my biggest pet peave! while you may be a responsible owner, not everyone else is. what other people think is cute or funny can cause severe issues later in a dogs life, such as dog aggression towards other dogs.
Starting with what we call a green dog, someone else did all of that for you. along with that generally the dog is not totally ''green''. they are usually well started in training, have been socialized, already have been health checked for hip/elbow dysplasia, are healthy dogs, that you can see what type of drive it has, how good it's nerves are, things that when raising a puppy you have to wait and see. i most commonly hear will the dog bond to me the same way a puppy? my reply is , how long do you think i've had my dog? many are in disbelief when you tell them you have only had the dog months, or a year, and that he was 2/5/7 yrs old when you got him.

glad everyone is enjoying the thread and alot of participation. notice how many of us it takes to think of all of this, there is so much more to it than many people think of.

 

[bogeybrown]

This thread works out well with me being 11.5hrs ahead of the Eastern U.S., it's almost like shift work while some of the guys are sleeping I'm up and on the computer.

From my own personal standpoint, I have seen handler ego as one of the biggest obstacles to a good relationship with a dog. Too many people bite off more dog than they can handle. I'll punk myself out right now and acknowledge that there are dogs I don't want to work with. I don't get that option, because my job requires me to work with dogs I'd prefer to leave in a kennel, but if given the choice to HANDLE those dogs I'd opt out. When I meet a new dog I instantly form an impression, just like with a person. Some of them I just have an instant positive feeling about and know we're going to be great together, others I look at and simply don't trust. From that second on every decision I make with a dog I don't trust is colored through that lens. The dogs also instantly pick up on the fact that I don't trust them, so we're never going to be good together.

I've had groups of dogs where I was the only trainer and had to get the most out of every dog, whether I "liked" them or not. I've also been fortunate to have other trainers available with different personalities and we could say to each other "You take this one, he seems to respond better to you, or I'll take this one, we've been making good progress".

Most of us have met at least one woman in our lives that we looked at and just KNEW there was something "there" before we ever spoke. The dogs I've had the most success with as a handler have been the same way.

That's probably a shortcoming on my part that I can't take ANY dog and get the same results. I've just had to acknowledge that I have my strengths and weaknesses, and to try to avoid being unfair with a dog to make up for it.

 

[Quarter Horse]

Congratulations to all who have posted to this thread and in particular those of you who have a training background. This has been, uniformly, one of the least contentious and most informative threads I have ever read.

I have a few comments and considerations that might be helpful. In some cases they have already been said and I only mean to reinforce. Breeding and bloodline study is much more complex

 

[Import_gsd]

not to derail here, but seeing the post of taliban capturing a MWD, i would go get him just to prove a point. not a full scale rescue/ take down as many would think. but just a couple sniper teams and a dog handler to recall the dog . shoot the taliban handler and call the dog. or possibly give the attack command just so he get's his before leaving.

quarter you are absolutely correct. breeding is more complex than ''studying'' bloodlines. they go hand in hand. but just having the lines is not a guaruntee of success in breeding. it's also always a comprimise as to what is going to be produced. generally top producing dogs also produce some faults, that being said with the amount of dna studies these days, much of this can be avoided. i think east germany , before the wall fell was the best breeding system in the world. they almost eliminated dysplasia, and many other genetic health problems under their breeding system. it was very well thoughtout system and all dogs were tested and documented which plays a role in eradicating problems. when all dogs are tested and x-rayed it is much more telling. in the free world where $$$ plays a part many dogs that have problems are covered up by the breeders! especially in the showline dogs as they are the biggest money makers.

society today is in general a weaker place of everyone wanting to ''feel good'', and being politically correct. rules of past have been watered down. long hairs are now allowed into breeding, sch/ipo has been made easier for dogs to pass as previous exercises are considered to hard for dogs today to pass, well if we have been improving the breeds it would seem to me we should make the test/ competition harder! i love to watch videos of the old days, where dogs didn't stare at the handler the whole routine! the old courage test's and breed surveys where the dogs had to scale the flat wall. i plan to visit several breeders in europe that have jumped ship from the SV, which is the original breed registry of the GSD, to the RSV2000, which is Herr Dr. Helmut Raisers brain child registry, with his registry having many of the rules from decades ago.

kenny

 

[lifebreath]

$80K is crazy money!

Well, here's my "protection" dog. I use the word loosely, since he is not trained to attack, bite, etc. He's from German show lines with fairly high drives and strong bite. When I play tug with him, he'll hold on forever while I lift him up and swing him around. He's got a very tolerant temperament of my kids, doesn't guard toys or food, but does have very strong territorial protective drive. We allowed him to get a little too aggressive when visitors approach the house, ring the bell, etc., so we are currently training him to tone it down. Alarm bark then go to his place when we answer the door, stay down quietly in place while people enter and stay until released, then calmly greet the visitor. After this is firmly in place, I'll train him to bark on command. He's a really smart dog and only after a few sessions is laying in place quietly while I knock from outside and enter. Next is the doorbell, which has generally sent him into a barking frenzy.

BTW - I paid too much for my dog, but we love him!

 

[Slapchop]

To the dog experts here in this thread. I just saw the video of the captured MWD. I found this clip, it's about six minutes long and in gibberish but in it you can clearly tell that they're showing off the dog and some plundered weapons as well. Anyway, what do you guys make of the behavior of the dog? I have zero knowledge of training dogs much less working dogs for SF teams but is it normal for a trained dog to behave in this fashion when he's away from his handler?

 

[bogeybrown]

Slapchop,

By the news accounts, the dog went missing in December. I don't know when the vid was actually made, but there's really no telling what has gone on in the intervening month or so. All you could really see from the video was that the dog was unsure of what was going on and wasn't comfortable. Without knowing anything about the dog prior to the incident it would be hard to gauge.

THIS is the reason my dog was ALWAYS D-ringed onto me while we were on patrol. The ONLY time he ever got clipped loose while outside the wire was inside of a closed compound when I needed him to get into some tight areas I couldn't squeeze into.

Obviously it wasn't possible for me to see what my dog was like when I wasn't with him, but from seeing other dogs when the handlers were gone, some were complete assholes that no one could touch and others were just happy to have SOMEONE feeding them and taking them for breaks.

It's a shit situation that's being discussed on another thread in the Bear Pit and as usual the responses from members about what should be done are all over the place.

 

[diverdon]

I don't know that this makes any sense but the chat rooms are saying that this dog was assigned to a British Capt who was KIA last December.

 

[bogeybrown]

I don't know that this makes any sense but the chat rooms are saying that this dog was assigned to a British Capt who was KIA last December.

I've seen the same thing on some of the stories. Some are going a little further and indicating it was a UKSF dog.

 

[Ren]

Very informative thread guys. Thanks for the time and thoughts put into these pages!

 

[lifebreath]

" After this is firmly in place, I'll train him to bark on command. "

breath,
Consider using a word other than 'bark' for the bark command or maybe 'bark' in another language. Your wife's home alone, someone strange is at the door, she can tell the dog to bark w/o letting the person at the door know she's instructing him to.

He speaks German.

 

[Quarter Horse]

Import,

When I was posting I got interrupted and a partial post went up. My apologies. I will try to make this concise. When you breed horses for speed you are necessarily breeding for confirmation and the desire to win. Beyond that most in the race industry don't care. The horse can be a complete rogue but if his early breedings show success they will continue to breed even if the roguish behavior surface in his progeny. They make this work because the horse will be in the hands of pro trainers, handlers and riders all of his working life. They believe they can control the negative trait to access the positive trait. The point is to buy for what you need. If you buy a dog for a high level of performance you better have the time and skills to maintain him/her. Every time a breeder breeds to enhance or instill a trait he will necessarily dilute the other traits. Kind of a vicious circle. Most people who bring a dog into their home need to consider that the dog may be acting as a ppd maybe two or three times in their life. The rest of the time they are a house dog.

A dog with the ability to turn it on and off like Import's mal is so rare that he is almost a crop out. Don't expect to find him. If you can take him up on his very gracious offer to help find a dog do so.
Remember that you are getting advice from professional instructor-handler-trainers. What they can accomplish with an animal has almost nothing to do with what you can accomplish.

 

[Import_gsd]

quarter horse,
i think dog breeding is alittle different than horses, per say, in that the breedings can be more controlled. the other part is that within a litter of pups, is quite different than only 1 foal at a time. many litters are very diverse, in temperment and drives and colors. there is no such thing as a perfect producer in any type of breeding. performance breeders, such as vom weinbergblick, vom monwheise, waldwinkel and the likes, are very similar in that they have access to the best trainer/handlers. Hank vom Weinbergblick has won the past 2 world championships and is helmets house dog also! but this handler is a PRO! he has competed and placed at the top levels with dogs that by accounts could not do this with other trainers. he has been doing this for a LONG time and basically has perfected the training to the point his current dog has scored 2 perfect 300 pt sch3's, and not at some run of the mil trial like seen here in the USA, the president of the SV was there to witness 1 trial, the other was a national level trial in austria. this being said johann the owner of Vom Weinbergblick is a very nice man and is willing to discuss breeding with almost anyone, and also will give advice to anyone who ask's. he has bred so many TOP level sport dogs it is ridiculous. that being said even he admits finding the gsd of the old days with balanced drives is very rare these days!
I have been talking with herbert darming of von der emsaue kennel lately and will spend a few days with him while in germany, we have a very common outlook/approach in breeding. i also will be visiting Elmar Mannes, another prominent breeder in germany who has offered me a puppy from his latest litter.
I am by no means a professional trainer. i enjoy training the dogs, and have a very open mind to new methods of training and also on seeking out knowlege, based on proven results. i learned from a very talented trainer in WA, that is not well known in the dog world. He has helped more than a few trainers do well at the world and national level. He is that guy with a natural ability to read dogs and adjust training accordingly that most people envy. that being said he is not user friendly! he speaks his mind and doesn't caare if it hurts your feelings. many people can not handle him, but we became very good friends. the problem was though ,many people used him for his help and then thanked everyone but him publicly, so he quit training altogether. He owns a dog i bred that could easily put most top national level dogs to shame, and this is their family dog!
The dogs are out there. they do not cost as much as most people think, and most do not need a dog that many suggest. i generally suggest my lowest drive pups to families. i breed for nerves and temperment, not for insane drives for sport. unlike a horse, i can ''adjust drives'' where needed. most low drive workingline dogs will be great in a family. they will play ball, can do any beginner level sport type work most want to do, and still live in the house without destroying everything! that being said, the solid nerve is what it takes to be a true ppd, a dog that has a good constitution and was well socialized as a puppy can do almost anything. then again as i said if someone is seeking a ppd, please buy a adolescent or trained dog! i am currently fixing a dog owned by a ''knowledgable person''. the dog was well started when he got him, but he didn't do shit with him. only wanted to do training in protection work and left the dog in the kennel 90% of his life. we are now fixing enviromental problems with him. he doesn't know how to jump into a car, he's unsure of slick floors, cats, everything inside the house is new, he had no obedience, not even the sit, wallk on a leash, nothing. so even though i'd prefer a dog with no training over bad training. we have alot of work to do with him! buying a ''green'' dog that is socialized, used to riding in the car, know's the crate, home and kennel and just basic obedience, started in bite work, and maybe introduced to tracking will make life much easier and doesn't cost much more. many of these dogs were not high enough level for sport training at the highest levels, but can be super family dogs.
these dogs do not require a whole lot of exercise, a 10 minute walk 2x a day, and 20-30 minutes of playing ball with them is more than enough. if you enjoy tracking like some, a 15 minute sch1 type track can mentally wear a dog out and they are a joy the rest of the day! i teach pups early on that they need to be calm when not working. it's not rocket science, they learn their job is to watch the house, mainly the front door! and go outside and play with the kids.

sorry for the book i wrote.

kenny

 

[Quarter Horse]

No need to apologize for the "book." I enjoy a good read. I've had mostly bird dogs but have also had everything from Toy Poodles to a pair of Dobes that had Borong the Warlock close up. My hunting partner for years was a Labrador breeder, trainer and a field trial judge. His mantra was that out of a litter you would get about a third of mom, a third of dad and about a third of what you were breeding for. Out of that you might get one really good dog. What really well controlled breeding does is improve your chances not guarantee your success. You are correct that the one foal you get with a horse greatly magnifies the time it takes to get what you want and then the incredible number of breedings to fix those traits.

When you say that you are not a professional trainer I don't know whether you refer to the fact that you don't do it for a living or you don't feel you've learned everything you need to know. It's not relevant, no good dogman has ever learned everything he needs to know. Training animals you will always find one that at does not respond at some point, you can either quit on the animal or you are humble enough to search for an answer. I believe the basis for a great dog starts with the breeding but it is almost equal parts training and handling. The vast majority of owners have no concept of what it actually takes to produce a great animal. I believe most people should not own a high performance dog. If they are looking for a "guard dog" family dog they should buy a dog bred for even temperament in a breed with a public reputation for aggression.

As much as I love my horses, the dog's relationship with man is completely different. Pack behavior is very similar to human family behavior particularly when families were larger. The dog gave man the ability to sleep with fewer sentries, to control and protect larger quantities of livestock, to secure our hearth, to hunt with extreme efficiency and on and on. He quite simply allowed us to civilize ourselves, well almost anyway. The dog is a gift to mankind. Whether you believe that gift came from God, Nature or a rock on the other side of the river he is never the less a gift.

 

[Henok]

If your buddy has it like that where he can fork over $80k for a dog that's good for him. A high end MWD that's running with Spec Ops units can be worth that but For that kinda cash, you can import a handful of KNPV dogs from Holland, that'll do the job, and you'll still have money left over.

 

[Import_gsd]

Henock,
the military is not a good judge of dogs' worth. i met a handler in afganistan in 09/10. well actually my guy's came and got me to see this guy and his dog. i walked up lit a smoke and started watching this ''handler'' and his dog. his dog was a cross breed mal/shepherd, he had no clue what he was doing. i kindly didn't say anything at first. he would get the dog all jacked up in ball drive, then turn around and start giveing corrections ''trying '' to show off some obedience. he asked me what i knew about dogs and such, as while i was sleeping 1 of my team leaders joked with the guy that if he came woke me up i could teach him a thing or 2. so he started by telling me how his dog was ''worth'' 15k. i laughed, he didn't think it was so funny. but i explained to him. he was trying to put a value on training, which is great but in the ''dog market'' he had a dog with no papers, and neither mali or gsd breeders would use his male for breeding, therefor he has little value. that being said he was trained at vohne liche kennels the retards from alpha dogs. who i have heard from other's that have been there, some of which are spec ops guys, that VLK didn't earn their respect, telling them how much money they make and blah blah blah. on top of that watching their show, the owner has alot of knowledge, the rest of them, ahh not so much. anyways, i asked if i could work his dog alittle, and showed him by using the ball to get what he wants from the dog, he didn't have to give him a bunch of corrections, and the dog will happily do whatever he asked for the ball.
Quarter Horse, i do agree that breeding set's the foundation. selection is also SUPER important, and your friend is pretty much spot on with regards to what you get in a litter. i think the trainer/handler has roughly 80-90% of the outcome of the dog. either they are very talented and can get the most out of the dog, or average and the dog like a person that shoots will only achieve what the trainer is capable of. many trainer ruin more dogs than they do great with, hence why many buy an already trained dog to compete with, but if you watch many of them change dogs very often as the dog doesn't fit their style of training, which is ass backwards, but is what it is. REAL trainer/ handlers such as dean calderon, T. Floyd, and a few others change their style to fit the dog. they have a vast bag of tools and knowledge to draw from. they are also capable of training at the top levels with dogs that would not reach it in the hands of other trainers. the dog i mentioned Hank vom Weinbergblick, is said to be very high drive but lacks in natural aggression. so for sport he is great, but for ppd?? ahh draw your own conclusion. many dogs lack this because many breeders don't work their ''titled'' dogs, so they are breeding pedigrees and titles, but have no understanding of the dogs themselves. this is not the case in europe as many of the breeders are active in training their dogs also. so if these breeders here are breeding without knowing then?? what is being accomplished besides producing puppies? they are making money, that is what. i spoke with a lady in Wa state about usiny her male as a stud, she told me she does not breed her male to improve on a female?? WTF are you doing then? the dog was known for producing dark pigment, black sable color, and very good working drives. i left what she said with an ok and a thank you for your time. what i really wanted to say was lady, you are in the wrong business, and a greedy bitch at that! but i bit my tongue and never mention her name in conversation.
I am friends with another breeder in WA state, that has produced many sport and working dogs. she doesn't do Sch, but does train with a group of people, and a few k9 handlers. she is very knowledagble in bloodlines, genetics and health issues. she frequently crosses bloodlines, east/west working lines and has had pretty good luck with it. she also know's some of her dogs produce defect's, but still breeds them! some people are what we call kennel blind, and only like what they produce. me, i don't give a rats a$$ what kennel it is, i like good dogs, showline, working line, they all have their good and bad's. i'm looking to breed, east/west working with good nerved showlines to produce the golden middle, a true utility dog. what the gsd was bred for originally, not sport or show champions but the ''golden'' middle capable of both. i'm striving to produce a universal seiger within 4-5 generations of my own breeding. which is a dog that is scored on combination of highest show placement and highest sch score for an aggregate. hence the name, a truly universal dog .

sincerely Kenny

 

[bogeybrown]

Kenny,

Those poor guys with the TEDD dogs from VLK were set up to fail from the beginning, so I'm not the least bit amazed at what you were seeing. Especially back in 2010 a lot of the "handlers" on that program were "volunteered" by their units for that program and had no desire and certainly no background for the work. It was a great deal for VLK, but not really for anyone else. They lost that contract and someone else is running it now. I was told the military improved their process for assigning "handlers" to the TEDD program, but I'm not sure. They were the bastard kids of the military dogs, because they didn't go through DTS and weren't "real MWDs" so pretty much all the MWD handlers/sups would shit on them pretty badly and leave them to their own. The only support they had were from the VLK trainers, who were a mixed bag themselves.

Shoot me a PM when you've got the time, wanted to pass something on to you.

 

[Import_gsd]

bogey,
"because they didn't go through DTS and weren't "real MWDs" so pretty much all the MWD handlers/sups would shit on them pretty badly and leave them to their own" sounds like the dog world in general. the elite ist attitude kills me. i tried to get my unit to send me to the TEDD thing, they thought it was stupid, " this ain't iraq SSG, in afghanistan it's not like there, it will be firefights not IED's" well let's just say they fuckin hated me, as every time someone hit an IED or stepped in a boobie trap, i'd throw it in their face, " OH it's so different than IRAQ isn't it!" well let's just say i wasn't winning MR.Popular with the chain O command. they did however learn to respect my knowledge and ideas! needless to say we got a MWD attached to us, and that guy loved me, we found shit tons of HME, cache's, IED's. PM inbound. i think our topic is pretty much dead now. so someone feel free to start another or ask more questions.

kenny

 

[capnjim01]

Now if you can teach him to brew beer we might have to have a conversation.

 

[SFree]

Had to bring this back up!
Hey Import GSD,
Did ya make it back with your new kiddo? Trying to absorb all I've read here and want to make contact with Texoma K-9 just to visit and maybe make a determination on what type will best suit our needs/wants.
Life long dream for me, to have and train with this quality of dog!

 

[Mustafa]

Really cool thread guys!
I've got a white GSD that I am training for K9 SAR. Doing this training with her is really creating a dog training bug in me! I'm supposed to finish my Master's degree this summer and I'll have about 4-5 months of GI Bill left over. Any tips on schools that would be worth my time (preferably that are setup to take GI Bill!)? I'd like to be able to train protection, tracking, air scent, trailing, and obedience. At first, I think it will just be a fun hobby, like shooting, but maybe, if I continue to enjoy it as much as I do now I can make a career of it.
So, any answers to the above questions or just general advice from those in the know is much appreciated!

When I first got her:

Now:
Getting spoiled at my Mom's house

Cadaver Search

 

[Johnnny13]

I currently have four dogs. Silver lab, yellow lab (retired explosives dog from working overseas), olde english bulldogge, and a GSD. The GSD was great when he was young. I left for 5 months for work and now he is so skiddish. This has caused so many problems. I had to work with him every day for two months to bring him back around. Owners seem to cause more problems with the dog then most people believe. For the money spent on him I would rather have gotten a green dog. This is a great thread.

 

[bogeybrown]

Mustafa,

From what I can see in your pictures, she almost looks to have more of a pale "Liver" coat than a true "White GSD", but I could be wrong. The "specialty" coats are relatively new and I don't have much experience with them. You're going to think I'm messing with you, but while you're deciding if this is something you want to devote some time and money to, I'd recommend looking into the PetSmart Trainers course. The trainer that works for me has about 30yrs experience in pretty much every aspect of working dog training you could name as well as dog sport training in the U.S. and Europe and HE did the PetSmart course years ago while he was between jobs and needing some work. He said that he actually got a good bit of knowledge from their program.

Johnnny,
You positively nailed it with the role of the owner/handler in the dog's behavior. If you ever watched Cesar Milan, you'll notice that about 10% of what he did was working with the DOG and the other 90% was fixing the OWNERS that had created the bad behavior.

 

[Mustafa]

Bogey, the white shepherds do come in the cream color like mine, though I believe it is less common and generally less "sought after" than pure whites. I personally love her coloring though. Very desert chic for out here in Utah!
I'll loom into the PetSmart thing. I might have a couple months after finishing my Masters and starting dog training (looking at Tom Rose school right now).
Thanks!

 

[Edward156]

Haha

That's hilarious !

A good friend of mine has 4 jack russells ! they are 4 of the meanest and most vicious sons of bitch dogs ive ever encountered.. Nice and gentle around his family and kids .

about 2 years ago him and his wife and kids went away overnight and left the dogs with plenty of food and water ..

Came back next day to see a pool of blood , 2 human fingers and something that was later identified as a testicle in the garden !.... never found the owner of the testicle for a few days until some dude with over 100 convictions for house breaking presented himself to the hospital with massive blood loss minus one testicle !...

80K for a dog !!!! that's funny >>>>>>