PRS Talk PRS Casual Rules...

[joelinux]

Hello!

So, several of my engineering friends at work and I are starting to get our co-workers into PRS.

We are planning on going regularly to a few outings to the PRS range in San Luis Obispo, CA.

We have also decided we need a casual competition when we are there, winner doesn't pay for lunch on the way back.

We *can* develop a formula for this competition, but we wanted to know if there are already rules in place.

Here are our criteria for the competition:

1. There has to be a mechanism to make longer distance shots earn more points than closer shots
2. Consistency should be rewarded over luck in distance. Someone who gets lucky on his second 1400 yard attempt should not be capable of winning against someone that can ring the steel at 1000 yards all day long.
3. People should feel free to take as many shots as they like. I don't want people to only have the first 10 shots count. They should be encouraged to shoot more so they can increase their skill

Are there existing rules that match this criteria already in existence?

 

[NovaHunter]

The short answer is no.

Regarding #3, accuracy through volume is not the game. Setting up your shooting position and making quality shots is more important then getting off another shot or two before the shot timer goes off, IMHO.

Best thing to do is for you all to go to a match and see how its run.

 

[joelinux]

The short answer is no.

Regarding #3, accuracy through volume is not the game. Setting up your shooting position and making quality shots is more important then getting off another shot or two before the shot timer goes off, IMHO.

Best thing to do is for you all to go to a match and see how its run.

Oh, there is no shot timer.

We want to avoid people not taking risky shots for fear of lowering their percentages. I don't think anyone will be mag dumping.

 

[MBanning]

Example. 3 targets per stage. Target 1, 1st round hit is 5 points, 2nd round hit is 4 points, 3rd is 3 points, etc... When you hit target 1 or miss it 5 times transition to target 2. Target 2 has same scoring as target 1. After a hit or 5 misses on target 2 transition to target 3. Target 3 is 5 shots, 1 point for each hit.
Clean stage is 7 shots fired and 15 points. You have a chance to learn from a miss and still gain a few points but are rewarded for 1st round hits.

 

[joelinux]

Example. 3 targets per stage. Target 1, 1st round hit is 5 points, 2nd round hit is 4 points, 3rd is 3 points, etc... When you hit target 1 or miss it 5 times transition to target 2. Target 2 has same scoring as target 1. After a hit or 5 misses on target 2 transition to target 3. Target 3 is 5 shots, 1 point for each hit.
Clean stage is 7 shots fired and 15 points. You have a chance to learn from a miss and still gain a few points but are rewarded for 1st round hits.

Good thought, but we also want to give people the freedom to select targets at will and plink away without reservation, and without limitation to the number of rounds they fire.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

So, no specific target engagement order (or even specific targets), no time limit (or time keeping at all), no round count limit, but you want longer range targets and first round hits to be worth more points?

That seems pretty complicated and chaotic to me, and doesn't really seem like a good recipe for designing planned courses of fire (the basis of most competitive shooting).

Still, I could see how it might be fun in the right situation with the right group of friends.

 

[BillOH]

You're setting yourselves up to turn some people off of PRS if there is a competition.

Questions: Is everybody an accomplished long range shooter? Does everybody have their own equipment? Specialized equipment is necessary. Does everybody already participate in some sort of shooting competition? Etc.

I've been shooting pistols in IPSC/USPSA and IDPA since 1980 and I've seen a lot of people come and go. If you really want your co-workers to like PRS, then NO competition. A free lunch isn't worth the possible butthurt.

Just make it a fun day. Have everybody shoot some examples of typical PRS stages for fun. Let them see what it is all about and then go and have a friendly lunch together.

 

[joelinux]

So, no specific target engagement order (or even specific targets), no time limit (or time keeping at all), no round count limit, but you want longer range targets and first round hits to be worth more points?

That seems pretty complicated and chaotic to me, and doesn't really seem like a good recipe for designing planned courses of fire (the basis of most competitive shooting).

Still, I could see how it might be fun in the right situation with the right group of friends.

We're engineers. We find our fun in taking the chaotic and making something structured.

And no, first round hits don't count for more.

There are a few people going (retired Marines), who might find PRS an amusing diversion, but, if you make it a competition (combined with shooting), they will REALLY dig into it.

 

[308pirate]

And no, first round hits don't count for more.

They should. Because quite often it's the only one that counts.

 

[joelinux]

They should. Because quite often it's the only one that counts.

That is the eventual goal.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Oh, there is no shot timer.

We want to avoid people not taking risky shots for fear of lowering their percentages. I don't think anyone will be mag dumping.

This is bad for progressing as a marksman.

You shouldn’t be taking low percentage shots in any situation. Be it under time or not.

Some people already develop bad habits if sending rounds in an attempt to get all the “allowed” shots off under time. This is a bad habit as well as unsafe.

Any shot that is considered “risky” (this is relative to each shooter’s skill level) should be passed on by the shooter.

 

[Sheldon N]

Good thought, but we also want to give people the freedom to select targets at will and plink away without reservation, and without limitation to the number of rounds they fire.

This sounds more like unstructured plinking for fun than a competition, and certainly not anything akin to PRS.

If you're going to make this a competition you've got to have some sort of structure to it. Time limitations (within reason), round count limitations, specific shooting order of which targets to engage, points for hits and no points for misses. That's totally setting aside the positional shooting difficulty that normally goes with PRS, which I acknowledge is a bit overwhelming to a new or casual shooter.

Even some basic prone stages could be a fun informal competition. 10 rounds, 2 shots per target at specific steel plates out to distance starting close and going out to farthest. 5 minute time limit (an eternity for PRS), most hits wins, if there's a tie the fastest time wins.

 

[308pirate]

A lot of the informal matches I go to either have multiple plates of different sizes at the same distances and the smaller the plate the higher its point value or have one plate at each distance on which you can make three attempts (5 pts for first round hit, 2 points for hit on second attempt, 1 point if hit on third attempt, 0 pts if missed on the 3rd shot)

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Frickin engineers. They never miss an opportunity to say "I'm an engineer".

 

[joelinux]

Frickin engineers. They never miss an opportunity to say "I'm an engineer".

It's even worse. I'm a systems engineer.

 

[502Chevelle]

The way they score at Bangsteel could work for you guys. Each target is worth 100 points at the start. You are allowed 5 shots at it, but each shot after the first reduces the score by 10 points. Hit it on the first shot, 100 points. Hit it on the 5th shot you get 60. Miss number 5, goose egg and you move to the next target. Once you hit it, you immediately go to the next target. There will usually be about 8 targets like this. Then one target will be the “rackem” target. You will shoot at that target 5 times for 20 points per shot for a possible score of 100 points. There is usually a 50/50 target also. This is a target that you shoot at twice for 50 points per shot. This target often ends up being the tie breaker on a tight match. Their matches are a lot of fun, I wish I could get there more often. If y’all have some steel, put it out and have a Bangsteel match. If you ever visit SW Va, bring your bangsticks! Good people there.

 

[W54/XM-388]

If you want a relaxed fun type event, you might consider plenty of time to do your shooting in.

Different sized targets at different distances, and the points awarded are greater for the more difficult shots (smaller MOA margin of error due to size/distance/both).

Have a limited round count, such as enough rounds for 1 hit per target plus a couple extra then it becomes an interesting game as to where to expend your rounds on.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

It's even worse. I'm a systems engineer.

Exactly.
It all makes sense now.

 

[Birddog6424]

Keep it simple and you'll never have a problem.

1 point per impact. Period.

2 minute stages. There is no sense of urgency without it. Shooting without a clock is boring.

Round limitations. 10 to 12 rounds per stage. Shooting unlimited rounds is also boring. Misses are no big deal, but they should be. So limit the rounds.

That's all you need to get started without muddying the water.

 

[joelinux]

Err...let me set the stage for some of you: There is no "round".

We are all at the range, casually trading off spotting for each other. This isn't a formal competition.

Which is why the title of this thread is "casual rules."

There also isn't a limit on shots. Some people will shoot 150 shots the entire time, some will only get through 40. We need a way to determine who is the better shot between the two.

The purpose is to encourage people to gradually get better while preserving the amateur nature of going to the range. We want to encourage better form, and increasing percentages on target.

Think about this as normalizing scores while plinking.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

We need a way to determine who is the better shot between the two.

1) timer
2) limited rounds

Literally the only way to determine anything.

 

[joelinux]

1) timer
2) limited rounds

Literally the only way to determine anything.

If you have a lack of imagination/understanding of math.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

You have that engineering mindset that makes everyone hate engineers.
"Lets take a very simple problem and make it as complicated as possible, and if we're lucky we won't even solve the problem!"

 

[joelinux]

You have that engineering mindset that makes everyone hate engineers.
"Lets take a very simple problem and make it as complicated as possible, and if we're lucky we won't even solve the problem!"

You must be management. You've criticized the ability for engineers to do anything without bothering to understand the solutions proposed.

This is fun!

 

[TonyTheTiger]

No I'm the guy who gets the blueprint drawn up by engineers that have never actually attempted to do the work they've proposed.

 

[joelinux]

No I'm the guy who gets the blueprint drawn up by engineers that have never actually attempted to do the work they've proposed.

Ah. Armchair Engineer. Makes sense: envious of the authority, but couldn't hack the calculus.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Nope, I actually like doing things, not just talking about it.

 

[Carl_Ross]

Why not let the plinking and practice occur, then go "on the record" when you want a string of fire to count for score?

In my experience, nothing will take the interest out of competition like a complex scoring system that is difficult to follow.

I've worked as an engineer and obviously around many other engineers. In my experience, the best engineers come up with solutions so simple and straightforward it has everyone asking "why didn't I think of that?" The worst are completely insufferable due to thinking they're the smartest in the room. There has almost no overlap in that Ven diagram.

 

[joelinux]

Why not let the plinking and practice occur, then go "on the record" when you want a string of fire to count for score?

In my experience, nothing will take the interest out of competition like a complex scoring system that is difficult to follow.

I've worked as an engineer and obviously around many other engineers. In my experience, the best engineers come up with solutions so simple and straightforward it has everyone asking "why didn't I think of that?" The worst are completely insufferable due to thinking they're the smartest in the room. There has almost no overlap in that Ven diagram.

Because we aren't to the stage that any sort of competition makes sense. Everything is still coalescing. My experience with the personality types is that if they don't have something to keep them interested, they might go to something like 3-gun or IDPA.

However, my friend and I have been shooting a lot longer than them, so we don't want to discourage them either.

So, we need to thread a fine line between giving them a reason to improve, but not blowing them out of the water.

In my experience as an engineer, the solution needs to scale to the complexity of the problem. Simple solutions to a complicated problem often result in something that doesn't last terribly long. However, management loves them because they let them claim victory in the short term.

In this instance, however, you are right, the solution needs to be simple.

We are thinking: Range*(number of successful hits)/(misses+1)

We might end up with coefficients if one range turns out to be exponentially more difficult than the next one.

 

[Sheldon N]

Err...let me set the stage for some of you: There is no "round".

We are all at the range, casually trading off spotting for each other. This isn't a formal competition.

Which is why the title of this thread is "casual rules."

There also isn't a limit on shots. Some people will shoot 150 shots the entire time, some will only get through 40. We need a way to determine who is the better shot between the two.

The purpose is to encourage people to gradually get better while preserving the amateur nature of going to the range. We want to encourage better form, and increasing percentages on target.

Think about this as normalizing scores while plinking.

PRS for engineers.... got it.

Each shooter will be given a piece of graph paper at the beginning of the range trip. The shooter's responsibility is to log each shot fired, categorized into one of ten categories based upon the distance of the target engaged, in 100 yard increments. Category One is 0 to 100 yards. Category Two is 100-200 yards, and so on. Category point value will be subject to a sliding scale in which Category One is worth exactly 50% of the points of Category Ten, on a linear basis.

Within each category there will be a sub value for "small target" versus "large target" with the large target worth 0.5 weight of the small target value. There will need to be a consensus for the delineation point between "small" and "large" target size. Shooter will again be responsible for notation indicating whether the points within a category were subject to the "large target" score weighting factor.

Upon completion of the range trip the shooter will be responsible to compute their hit percentage within each category for both small targets and large targets, then weight those averages into a total hit percentage based upon the number of rounds fired within each category and the relative point value of the category based upon the target distance. This final result will represent 50% of the shooter's score.

The remaining 50% of the shooters score will be determined by a graph in which the shooter must plot the intersection of their hit probability (x axis) by the amount of risk taken in engaging higher category value ranges and small targets (y axis).

Any tiebreaks will be determined by a judging panel that assesses the quality of the mathematical analysis outined on their scoresheet, and whether they fully showed their work.

 

[joelinux]

Any tiebreaks will be determined by a judging panel that assesses the quality of the mathematical analysis outined on their scoresheet, and whether they fully showed their work.

Judging panels are too arbitrary.

As this is plinking.

 

[Sheldon N]

Judging panels are too arbitrary.

As this is plinking.

I have done the calculations and the odds of a tie are 0.000345%.

I think you can live with the risk of an arbitrary judging panel.

 

[Birddog6424]

Nothing is more irritating than someone asking for advice and then arguing against it.

If you aren't willing to listen to the guys with experience giving said advice. Then take your stupid question and go somewhere else. I've seen feedback from four posters above that I know shoot PRS matches, and understand the nature of Precision rifle competitions.. It's good advice. But you have issue.

So go make your own rules, and stop asking us for ours.

 

[Sheldon N]

PS... my first post is good advice.

I hope to goodness you don't take my second post about the uber-complex scoring system seriously, I'm being tongue in cheek.

You know what made PRS fun for me? I went to a match, I sucked and got my teeth kicked in and missed a bunch of targets. I saw what someone who was a good shooter was actually capable of. I had a blast, and I wanted to get better.

So I went and did it some more, now I don't miss nearly as many targets.

 

[joelinux]

I have done the calculations and the odds of a tie are 0.000345%.

I think you can live with the risk of an arbitrary judging panel.

Please show your proof.

And yes, I know you were giving me a hard time.

Nothing is more irritating than someone asking for advice and then arguing against it.

If you aren't willing to listen to the guys with experience giving said advice. Then take your stupid question and go somewhere else. I've seen feedback from four posters above that I know shoot PRS matches, and understand the nature of Precision rifle competitions.. It's good advice. But you have issue.

So go make your own rules, and stop asking us for ours.

I asked a specific question. Most people are answering with the competition *they* want. Which is not what I asked for.

 

[Birddog6424]

I didnt tell you what "I" wanted. I dont think other people did either.

We told you, in our experience, the best and simplest way to have a little friendly competition that was simple, easy, and separated best from lucky.

Timers
Round limits
Simple scoring system.

If you know what you want better than we do, then put what you want together and go do it.

 

[Scwalker83]

You might draw straws to see who gets the best participation trophy. On a more serious note, add a handicap for the newer shooters. Double the time something to that effect. Simple and objective like scoring is in current PRS will be appreciated by the vast majority. 1 shot, 1 point.

 

[joelinux]

I didnt tell you what "I" wanted. I dont think other people did either.

We told you, in our experience, the best and simplest way to have a little friendly competition that was simple, easy, and separated best from lucky.

Timers
Round limits
Simple scoring system.

If you know what you want better than we do, then put what you want together and go do it.

No, I get it. It's like when you ask people advice on how to cook a steak using a stove, and they say you should buy a pellet grill.

Or if you need help setting up whql drivers in your Nvidia card, and they recommend you buy a Mac.

That kind of advice is just infinitely useful and always helps.

You might draw straws to see who gets the best participation trophy.

What are you talking about? *Everyone* gets a participation trophy.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Or if you need help setting up whql drivers in your Nvidia card.

That's easy now try it when you need to install the Nvidia Linux drivers for a Turing based Nvidia card and you are using LUKS full disk encryption....
(my non elegant solution is a computer that acts like it's dead till you type in the password and then it suddenly decides to have a video display).

 

[Scwalker83]

That's easy now try it when you need to install the Nvidia Linux drivers for a Turing based Nvidia card and you are using LUKS full disk encryption....
(my non elegant solution is a computer that acts like it's dead till you type in the password and then it suddenly decides to have a video display).

That is really cool. What software allows you to do that with your computer?

 

[Sheldon N]

No, I get it. It's like when you ask people advice on how to cook a steak using a stove, and they say you should buy a pellet grill.

Almost.... it's like when you ask a chef how to properly cook a steak, then don't like his advice.

Some VERY experienced PRS shooters have chimed in on the thread, including people who I would call national level competitors. You've asked how to play our sport (or dabble in it) and have gotten advice founded in years of competition shooting.

 

[joelinux]

That's easy now try it when you need to install the Nvidia Linux drivers for a Turing based Nvidia card and you are using LUKS full disk encryption....
(my non elegant solution is a computer that acts like it's dead till you type in the password and then it suddenly decides to have a video display).

I'm not quite that security conscience/paranoid, but, funny enough, i am running my Nvidia card on Gentoo Linux.

That is really cool. What software allows you to do that with your computer?

If he says he is using systemd.....

 

[Birddog6424]

No, I get it. It's like when you ask people advice on how to cook a steak using a stove, and they say you should buy a pellet grill.

Or if you need help setting up whql drivers in your Nvidia card, and they recommend you buy a Mac.

That kind of advice is just infinitely useful and always helps.

No, I get it now too.

You already know how to shoot our sport better than us. So I'll ask you..

If my buddies and I just want to have a little casual PRS fun, just for some Bromance Bragging Rights, how would you do it?

Then consider yourself answered.

/thread

 

[joelinux]

Almost.... it's like when you ask a chef how to properly cook a steak, then don't like his advice.

Some VERY experienced PRS shooters have chimed in on the thread, including people who I would call national level competitors. You've asked how to play our sport (or dabble in it) and have gotten advice founded in years of competition shooting.

Yes, they are telling me how I should run a formal competition.

That isn't what I asked for.

Nothing against formal competitions, but that won't keep these guys coming back.

These guys will want a very lightweight competition that will allow them to plink away to their heart's content, but reward them for improving their form.

A formal timed, limited shot competition is not at all what I asked for, and won't be anything they want to participate in.

And yet, people keep saying it's what I should do. I guess if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I'm not quite that security conscience/paranoid, but, funny enough, i am running my Nvidia card on Gentoo Linux.

If he says he is using systemd.....

Unfortunately that Poettering abomination has infected most of the Linux world. Probably because Red Hat has some evil plan to be able to make tons of money on "support". It is getting harder and harder to find a new distribution that doesn't have it in there & sometime even other packages want it now.

My current go to distribution is Mint, Cinnamon which unfortunately went Systemd.

I'm trying to go with the freedom loving rebels at Deuvan but their driver support is non existent, so I'm still figuring out how to get all my latest hardware properly supported. So for now I'm a bit stuck with the SystemD (except for my radio system which I have as Deuvan, because who can trust a int that has a DHCP and network client built into the black box?).

LUKS works nicely, full disk encryption that will keep out most thieves and general folks, and makes your entire drive except the bootloader totally unreadable.

BUT there is a big problem when using the Nvidia proprietary drivers (and none of the new cards work with the open source drivers), so you have to tread really carefully, because you update the video driver and next thing you don't have any video display till you fix it.

 

[Sheldon N]

And yet, people keep saying it's what I should do. I guess if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I think the problem is that you want to use the term "PRS", but you don't want to do anything that actually makes PRS matches what they are.

PRS style competitions all have some common elements. Time limitations. Mental challenges as to what targets to engage when. Positions that make hitting targets hard (ie other than prone), scoring based on impacts vs no impacts, leading to results that clearly differentiate shooters between who is good and who is just getting started, without any worry about hurt feelings or discouraging someone from attending. It's very common that a good shooter might shoot 160 impacts in a two day match, and a newbie might get 20.

If you simply took the word "PRS" out of your question it would be more appropriate.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

@joelinux you left me hanging. I was having fun bantering with an engineer without him running off to cry in Human Resources..

 

[joelinux]

Unfortunately that Poettering abomination has infected most of the Linux world. Probably because Red Hat has some evil plan to be able to make tons of money on "support". It is getting harder and harder to find a new distribution that doesn't have it in there & sometime even other packages want it now.

My current go to distribution is Mint, Cinnamon which unfortunately went Systemd.

I'm trying to go with the freedom loving rebels at Deuvan but their driver support is non existent, so I'm still figuring out how to get all my latest hardware properly supported. So for now I'm a bit stuck with the SystemD (except for my radio system which I have as Deuvan, because who can trust a int that has a DHCP and network client built into the black box?).

LUKS works nicely, full disk encryption that will keep out most thieves and general folks, and makes your entire drive except the bootloader totally unreadable.

BUT there is a big problem when using the Nvidia proprietary drivers (and none of the new cards work with the open source drivers), so you have to tread really carefully, because you update the video driver and next thing you don't have any video display till you fix it.

Gentoo has openrc

I think the problem is that you want to use the term "PRS", but you don't want to do anything that actually makes PRS matches what they are.

PRS style competitions all have some common elements. Time limitations. Mental challenges as to what targets to engage when. Positions that make hitting targets hard (ie other than prone), scoring based on impacts vs no impacts, leading to results that clearly differentiate shooters between who is good and who is just getting started, without any worry about hurt feelings or discouraging someone from attending. It's very common that a good shooter might shoot 160 impacts in a two day match, and a newbie might get 20.

If you simply took the word "PRS" out of your question it would be more appropriate.

We are shooting precision rifles. And we want a slight, casual competition. What would you call that?

 

[Sheldon N]

We are shooting precision rifles. And we want a slight competition. Nwhatvwould you call that?

Plinking.

 

[joelinux]

@joelinux you left me hanging. I was having fun bantering with an engineer without him running off to cry in Human Resources..

You kidding? It's the support personnel that usually complain. "Oh, he didn't use politically correct terms for my extra nostril", "she didn't make me feel validated as I made her coffee", "he didn't take my suggestion to use cheese whiz as a load bearing beam seriously"