PRS Talk PRS Safety Culture

[acronut]

Why didn’t I yell stop? I asked myself that over and over again after I saw a fellow competitor blow up his rifle the other week. Why did I back up and turn my face away, but I didn’t have the courage to yell stop? Why did I see several others do the same as me? What held us back from stopping a life threatening incident when we all knew something was probably going to go very wrong? I have come to the conclusion that it is a complete lack of safety culture an most PRS matches. The rules are there black and white, but no one is enforcing them, and the venues do not promote it. I am not an accomplished shooter, but I have exposed myself to multiple shooting sports including USPSA, IDPA, 3 gun matches, carbine matches, CMP matches etc… Every one of those shooting sports have a zero tolerance policy for safety infractions to include
-flagging anyone including yourself
-180 degree rule
-leaving the firing line with a mag in or a loaded firearm
-Loading before RO direction
-AD or ND

I see on the PRS website that all of these issues are addressed in the rule book with associated penalties. Unfortunately, I have yet to be at a PRS event where these rules were upheld. Sometimes NDs get competitors DQed but not nearly as often as it should. Sometimes during a stage an RO will catch a muzzle break the 180, or have a competitor start to leave the line with a mag in, or missing chamber flag, but all they do is mention it… No penalties, no big deal. I didn’t even know PRS was supposed to have a 120 degree rule until I read the official rules before writing this. Never once has this been mentioned during a safety briefing I’ve been to, let alone enforced.

At a recent major match, I first hand witnessed the following and I’ve seen similar things at most matches I’ve been to.
- Rifles staged everywhere and anywhere pointing all directions with people manipulating them.
- People constantly flagging themselves and other shooters while walking and manipulating their rifles.
- Twice Jersey wearing team shooters loaded mags before RO instruction. Once the RO was with the previous competitor downrange of the now loaded firearm and the firearm was pointed in their direction. RO came out, saw it, made a little speech to not do that and then pressed on.
- Two very obvious NDs during stages, but the ROs didn’t catch it because they were both on glass. Both competitors knew they did it, looked disgusted with themselves, then realized the ROs hadn’t caught it, so they pressed on.
- One ND where the shooter called himself on it, realized the ROs hadn’t noticed, plead his case that he was safe because he stopped himself and therefore only got a stage DQ instead of a match DQ.
- Shooters changing positions on barricades with bolt closed.
- Several shooters walking away from the line with mags in and many with no chamber flags.
-1 shooter during a stage chambered a round, RO yelled time, then turned away to enter scores. Competitor picked up his rifle, fortunately muzzle pointed up, turned around and started to walk off the stage. I yelled stop 3 times before he and both ROs stopped and looked at me. I said bolt and mag!! "Ohh yea, ok" unloaded his chamber and dropped his mag still facing us instead of downrange. He took another step and I said “chamber flag!’ Which he then dug out of a pocket and put in. ROs got back to scoring and brought the next competitor to the line, nothing done or said.

Why is it ok to have guns on tables or on the ground pointed at people? Why aren’t there designated areas to put guns pointed downrange or at berms where no one can walk in front of them. Simple rifle racks could be put in other communal areas where this isn’t possible.

Why is it ok to carry a rifle like a suitcase or flat on a cart, or over their shoulder flagging everyone?

Why isn’t one RO watching each competitor for safety violations during the entire stage and enforcing them?

Why didn’t I yell stop to the competitor before he blew up his rifle??? Because I had never seen someone at a PRS event stopped for anything except a very obvious ND… Because I thought everyone would look at me as a low scoring nobody ruining a competitive shooters possible winnings on the last stage of the match… Because I had been in an environment for the previous three days that obviously had very little concern for safety. I am so very thankful that he wasn’t hurt or killed, because I was in a position to save his life and I did nothing. I won’t do nothing again, I am committing myself to be that guy, that safety nazi, that Ahole that won’t let people ignore the rules… How about you guys? Will you commit to changing the safety culture of the PRS with me? It will be a big change, maybe not from the initial intent, or the current rules… But it will be a big change a soon as people start to enforce the rules. It will be very unpopular to start DQing mass numbers of competitors in the process no matter who they are or how little of an infraction it seems to be, especially at the bigger matches with big prize tables. The local matches usually have a better handle on things but it’s definitely still an issue. Do you all agree that we have a problem that needs to change, or is it going to take someone getting killed before we wake up and change it? It’s not hard to find looking at videos and pictures from all over our sport posted to social media. I know I’ve been part of the problem because I haven’t been stopping it, that I can assure you will change. Once competitors realize they need to follow the rules or they will be DQed, they will follow the rules, just like all the other shooting sports. Until then, we are begging for disaster.

Sincerely,
Kendal Simpson

 

[Chuggles]

Cliff notes?

 

[Mormegil87]

Following.

 

[AIAW]

Good stuff. I am curious about this rifle explosion...

 

[Eric32]

Can you please elaborate on the situation were this person blew his rifle up. I think it should be explained how and why. So others can learn.

 

[xNF_9]

Cliff notes?

If you are shooting in a match and see any safety rules broken call them on it. New or senior shooters. @acronut has seen too many violations in his PRS and none of them have been called out by the RO or other shooters. Doesn’t specify which matches or where he went to them.

Someone blew up their gun but he doesn’t specify how.

The wrecking someone’s chances at the prize table is the reason he says people don’t call others out.

@acronut did I miss anything for a cliff note version? I thought it was well said.

 

[Rob01]

Maybe a little more specificity should be in order instead of generalities and vagueness.

 

[lash]

To take out any personal issues, I’ll give you the third hand version. I’m totally willing to be corrected if I have something wrong. Feel free to correct me if I’ve gotten something wrong. In any case;

A well ranked shooter experienced what he thought was a failure to fire, while shooting a stage. He ejected the shell and fed the next round into battery under time. The next round resisted being loaded into the chamber and the shooter, under pressure for time, slammed the round into chamber and ‘beat’ the bolt down to fully engage battery. When he pulled the trigger, the gun exploded. There happened to be a squib in the barrel, at the end of the chamber. Thus the difficulty feeding and chambering the next round.

The shooter was very lucky that the barricade protected his face when things went sideways. Word is that had he been a right handed shooter on that same barricade position, there would have been a serious injury at the least. It blew out the side of the receiver and portions of the stock. Pretty spectacular...and scary to all involved. I’m told that they did not find the bits of the receiver that blew out.

My take on this is third hand and removed from the actual occurance, so take it as that. I know, as do many of you that compete in timed matches, that you make decisions on the fly, in nano-seconds, based on your past experience and understanding of things as you have experienced them in the past. Many, if not most of us have experienced a loaded round that fits tight in the chamber and that requires extra bolt throw force to seat in the chamber. Usually this due to variation in headspace created by using a minimal setback or perhaps by passing up trimming on this batch of rounds. Bad practice? Yes. But usually resulting in minimal chambering difficulty and no discernible negative effect.

What happened here is the difference between what I described above and a true problem that should have been detected by the shooter. Knowing how competitive pressure can addle your brain under the clock, I get that the shooter made a bad, split-second decision to proceed instead of calling it and troubleshooting the issue.

The OP was there and at the stage and saw what transpired. He is understandably upset at what occurred, his failure to somehow stop what happened in mere seconds, and his reflection on things that he’s seen while competing (including that day) that could have and should have been more closely monitored and controlled to prevent the very real possibility of a disaster that nobody wants to see or to happen.

He’s not wrong, nor is there an easy answer other than that we all must do our best to pay attention to safety at all times and to be that much more cognizant of safety concerns and of potential for danger while there are many rifles on the line and being handled during transitions.

I’m pretty sure that acronut is not trying not to focus on this one shooter or incident, but to bring to all of our attention that we need to all focus more on being safe shooters at all times while we compete and enjoy our time at the matches. I don’t think that this needs to focus on the incident as much as the general focus on safety at all times while handling and shooting high-powered rifles.

I have reason to believe that this is meant to be a genaral call out to all involved to mind the safety of all concerned and not lose track of how we conduct ourselves with regards to all when it comes to safety on the line and behind the line.

Edit: re-reading my post, I realize that I’ve been a bit redundant, yet I don’t apologize and stick with what I’ve written.

 

[Rob01]

Sounds like an isolated incident albeit a serious one and not an overall problem in the sport as a whole. Of course safety is everyone's job at a match but that incident was really no one's fault. A freak accident. Safety issues are not an epedmic in the sport. Not atleast that I have seen in my 16 years of shooting it.

 

[ForgeValley]

RO's and MDs can't be everywhere. It is up to us to police ourselves. I know it's hard. I work in an industry where the safety culture approaches the obsessive. If you see a safety hazard, and don't say anything, there are consequences.

I would say that the OPs example of seeing 3 NDs at one match indicates a culture of laxness. I may be a nazi about it, but if you nd, ought to be a match dq. No excuses and no redo, don't give a shit whether you wear a jersey or it is your first match.

 

[xNF_9]

Well I can say without being there and just hearing this from this thread is that the squib load is the shooters fault forcing a round in the chamber. I don’t know how much force was used but from what acronut said is he knew he shouldn’t have pulled the trigger on that round. I have seen multiple people attempt this thinking it is a reloading issue. For most of the time it is but the time acronut saw it, it wasn’t.

I have not shot a PRS match but from a LEO standpoint safety is biggest concern. When you see what a round does to human flesh in person it will make you reconsider how you deal with safety protocols. Especially a high powered rifle round. If I do go shoot one I won’t hesitate to call someone out for being unsafe.

 

[Eric32]

@lash

I can see where he is coming from that seems like hell of a thing to happen to someone. I see both sides of an argument on that situation. He should have known something wasn't right when we had to force the round and his previous failure to fire to should have been checked. But then again it should have been stopped and given a quick check from the RO. with a time stoppage so he can continue his stage if all was indeed safe. But hind sight is 20/20 but that is something I will remember next time i have a hard to chamber round.

@acronut

I can see why you are upset, i do think that situation was out of your control. how could you have known a round was stuck in the barrel.

But that is a good idea of a designated rifle staging area at each stage. Seem like a good idea to be brought up with the PRS. I hope Shannon Kay is made aware of this thread and is able to come up with a step towards a solution to the flagging and chamber flags when walking away from a stage.

 

[lash]

@lash

I can see where he is coming from that seems like hell of a thing to happen to someone. I see both sides of an argument on that situation. He should have known something wasn't right when we had to force the round and his previous failure to fire to should have been checked. But then again it should have been stopped and given a quick check from the RO. with a time stoppage so he can continue his stage if all was indeed safe. But hind sight is 20/20 but that is something I will remember next time i have a hard to chamber round.

@acronut

I can see why you are upset, i do think that situation was out of your control. how could you have known a round was stuck in the barrel.

But that is a good idea of a designated rifle staging area at each stage. Seem like a good idea to be brought up with the PRS. I hope Shannon Kay is made aware of this thread and is able to come up with a step towards a solution to the flagging and chamber flags when walking away from a stage.

It is clear in the rules regarding safety concerns like this. No matter how many rules are put into place, Shannon cannot control what happens at matches. The lesson, if any, that we should all take from this, is to personally be more vigelent at matches. If we are MDs or ROs, we need to ensure that we allow proper areas for rifle staging, to enforce the use of those areas, and to have enough eyes on to make sure that shooters and staged competitors alike are aware of safety.

 

[Mormegil87]

Not going to comment on the specific incident.

As far as general safety. Until we start enforcing the penalties outlined in the various rule books for safety violations, nothing will change. Nobody wants to be the bad guy but someone has to be, if it means everyone gets to go home with no extra holes in them. We; that means MDs, ROs AND line shooters need to call people out for safety issues. Even if it means being the bad guy and drawing bad press for the match. I can guarantee that the bad press from a pissed off shooter who got DQ'd, won't be nearly as bad as the press we get when a shooter doesn't go home.

 

[Eric32]

@lash

I understand he can't control individual situations. I just rather bring it up to someone who can affect change or refresh the safety mindset if that makes sense. Rather than to play arm chair quarterback and then it dies and nothing ever happens.

 

[Mormegil87]

I think there's a reluctance from people to be "that guy" or get labeled the "safety nazi" from numerous reasons which I won't get into because it's all speculation.

 

[McNamara0851]

The matches I have attended have been more than safe. In particular, I felt that Jim See did a hell of a job at the Iowa match last June. He was a safety nazi, without all the douche, as were his RO’s.

 

[acronut]

@RoterJager gets it... the specific incident of the rifle blowing up is quite irrelevant... There is an issue with PRS style matches that is very evident. Take a few minutes and watch some video or posted pictures from any major match. If you don’t see people being flagged and people breaking the 120/180 rule then I would be surprised. It didn’t take long to find these surfing the PRS FB video and picture posts. Seasoned PRS shooters are completely numb to it. People coming into this sport from other shooting sports are very surprised by it. I love this sport and the people in it. It’s a truly wonderful thing. Unfortunately I see a major problem that I am trying to correct before someone gets hurt.

 

[xNF_9]

All of those pictures do show concern. Loaded or unloaded.

 

[acronut]

@Rob01 I left things general and vague because I have ample evidence that it is not isolated. The most experienced shooters seem completely numb to it. As I stated above, go to picture albums and watch videos from just about any major match and it’s not hard to find safety violations. If I thought it was isolated to a certain venue or individuals I would say so. The pictures above from various matches prove the point.

 

[D_TROS]

The evil “PRS” isnt the problem. The rules are there. This problem wont go away until the RO’s are addressed. The problem is every tom dick and harry with a corn field is putting on matches and having their family members RO because THERE ARE TOO MANY MATCHES and decent RO’s are hard to find. Its been my biggest pet peeve for years all the responsibility is put on the RO and the RO dont know chit about shooting. PRS/NRL has to limit the nimber of matches.

If you dont have a shooting club or a pool of shooters that you can draw from to run a match you have no business running a match.

Ive never once seen a RO that was a shooter not have a designated place for rifles and straight up bust balls with safety.

When there are what 100 major matches a yr now, RO’s are going to be tough to find and educate. Who is liable? good question i hope i nvr have to find out. As OP mentioned the rules are there. RO’s need to address them.

To blame the “establishment” ie prs is incorrect. Other than the PRS/NRL/RTC/etc are taking advantage of volunteers to make a quick buck. Disgusting.


YMMV
Dorgan.

 

[xNF_9]

To blame the “establishment” ie prs is incorrect. Other than the PRS/NRL/RTC/etc are taking advantage of volunteers to make a quick buck. Disgusting.

@D_TROS I’d like your comment more than once if possible.

 

[samb300]

I experienced the most unsafe match I have ever been to last summer. There was no safety brief, no chamber flags required, not even required to have the bolt open on guns that were strewn every which way.

I was flagged by a person handling a rifle with a closed bolt, and when I told the MD my concerns (after giving the shooter a chamber flag) he said “we don’t enforce that here.” That shooter continued to handle his rifle with the bolt closed the remainder of the match.

There was a barricade stage on the 1000 yard line (shooting at a 300yd target) where I witnessed a shooter move from position to position with a closed bolt on a live round. I audibly yelled to him and the RO “bolt back! BOLT BACK WHEN MOVING!!!” After he finished the stage doing the same thing, we got in a verbal altercation that almost lead to blows where he told me I was a safety nazi and no one cared about that shit and I should just leave. Well if I hadn’t been out of state with two other people I would’ve left hours earlier. It’s a hobby to me and I don’t want to go home in a body bag nor do I want to witness it happen to someone else.

Oh, and the scissor lift stage that ran simultaneously was visible from the 1000 yard line when it was at its peak. So imagine the possible safety issue with clueless shooters moving on a prop with a live round and someone 500 yards downrange (to the side) 30 feet in the air.

I sent the MD and associates a detailed letter addressing my concerns, and I sincerely hope their response was not just lip service. I will never attend one of their matches again.

 

[xNF_9]

I was flagged by a person handling a rifle with a closed bolt, and when I told the MD my concerns (after giving the shooter a chamber flag) he said “we don’t enforce that here.” That shooter continued to handle his rifle with the bolt closed the remainder of the match.

F-that. Money back and I’m out.

 

[Mormegil87]

The evil “PRS” isnt the problem. The rules are there. This problem wont go away until the RO’s are addressed. The problem is every tom dick and harry with a corn field is putting on matches and having their family members RO because THERE ARE TOO MANY MATCHES and decent RO’s are hard to find. Its been my biggest pet peeve for years all the responsibility is put on the RO and the RO dont know chit about shooting. PRS/NRL has to limit the nimber of matches.

If you dont have a shooting club or a pool of shooters that you can draw from to run a match you have no business running a match.

Ive never once seen a RO that was a shooter not have a designated place for rifles and straight up bust balls with safety.

When there are what 100 major matches a yr now, RO’s are going to be tough to find and educate. Who is liable? good question i hope i nvr have to find out. As OP mentioned the rules are there. RO’s need to address them.

To blame the “establishment” ie prs is incorrect. Other than the PRS/NRL/RTC/etc are taking advantage of volunteers to make a quick buck. Disgusting.


YMMV
Dorgan.

This is 100% correct but may I add that it's all for not if an MD doesn't stand behind their ROs.

If an MD buckles under pressure from a well known shooter, buddy, shooter representing a match sponsor or sponsor shooting the match; then it's all for not. If every time an RO calls out a shooter for some safety violations, that shooter runs to the MD and the MD backs the shooter then is it really the ROs fault?

 

[bschneiderheinze]

I don't know where you shoot at or what state but are rifles get staged downed range. If leave a mag in flag someone repeatedly or break any other safety rule we get one warning and then we are out.

 

[lash]

I don't know where you shoot at or what state but are rifles get staged downed range. If leave a mag in flag someone repeatedly or break any other safety rule we get one warning and then we are out.

Which is how it is supposed to work, no matter what state you’re in.

 

[samb300]

One other issue I see with smaller "club" level matches is there aren't enough people to RO. For each stage you might have one person on glass, and one other person is looking at a tablet to mark hits and misses. So no one is actually looking at the shooter for safety violations, NDs, etc. What you end up with is 10 people standing in line or staging their gear, half watching, and when the shooter does something unsafe no one says anything.

You don't typically have a thrid "moving" RO that physically follows the shooter closely like in 3-gun or IDPA.

That's how I've heard about guys ND'ing (into the dirt 30' in front of the barricade) and not being DQ'd. The spotter doesn't see splash but doesn't think anything of it, and the shooter just keeps plugging along, probably with his tail between his legs because he doesn't want to DQ himself even though he knows damn well he ND'd.

Maybe the solution for club matches is to designate someone in each squad to be an unofficial RO with the job of following shooters specifically to watch for these types of safety violations. They would need to be more involved on a barricade stage than a static prone stage. But ultimately anyone should be able to call anyone else out for a safety violation, up to stage/match DQ issues. But the MD would need to establish those rules at the safety brief, and make it clear what actions are warnings, stage DQ, match DQ, etc.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

To take out any personal issues, I’ll give you the third hand version. I’m totally willing to be corrected if I have something wrong. Feel free to correct me if I’ve gotten something wrong. In any case;

A well ranked shooter experienced what he thought was a failure to fire, while shooting a stage. He ejected the shell and fed the next round into battery under time. The next round resisted being loaded into the chamber and the shooter, under pressure for time, slammed the round into chamber and ‘beat’ the bolt down to fully engage battery. When he pulled the trigger, the gun exploded. There happened to be a squib in the barrel, at the end of the chamber. Thus the difficulty feeding and chambering the next round.

The shooter was very lucky that the barricade protected his face when things went sideways. Word is that had he been a right handed shooter on that same barricade position, there would have been a serious injury at the least. It blew out the side of the receiver and portions of the stock. Pretty spectacular...and scary to all involved. I’m told that they did not find the bits of the receiver that blew out.

That's the first time I've heard that he basically hammered the bolt into battery. I walked up about 10 seconds after the detonation, not realizing what happened right away. The shooter in question is indeed DAMN lucky to have walked away with little more than powder burns (last I heard, anyway), but his action looked like it had been used for a hand grenade.

 

[diverdon]

I experienced the most unsafe match I have ever been to last summer. There was no safety brief, no chamber flags required, not even required to have the bolt open on guns that were strewn every which way.

I was flagged by a person handling a rifle with a closed bolt, and when I told the MD my concerns (after giving the shooter a chamber flag) he said “we don’t enforce that here.” That shooter continued to handle his rifle with the bolt closed the remainder of the match.

There was a barricade stage on the 1000 yard line (shooting at a 300yd target) where I witnessed a shooter move from position to position with a closed bolt on a live round. I audibly yelled to him and the RO “bolt back! BOLT BACK WHEN MOVING!!!” After he finished the stage doing the same thing, we got in a verbal altercation that almost lead to blows where he told me I was a safety nazi and no one cared about that shit and I should just leave. Well if I hadn’t been out of state with two other people I would’ve left hours earlier. It’s a hobby to me and I don’t want to go home in a body bag nor do I want to witness it happen to someone else.

Oh, and the scissor lift stage that ran simultaneously was visible from the 1000 yard line when it was at its peak. So imagine the possible safety issue with clueless shooters moving on a prop with a live round and someone 500 yards downrange (to the side) 30 feet in the air.

I sent the MD and associates a detailed letter addressing my concerns, and I sincerely hope their response was not just lip service. I will never attend one of their matches again.

Had I been riding with you I would have been waiting in the car.

 

[diverdon]

The problem I see with a lot of the proposed solutions it that in the current culture they are just more opportunities for shooters to trade favors.

Now consider a buddy system by random drawing. Each shooter draws a name out of the hat---The shooter don't get to read the name just hands it to the match director. Then if during the course of the match the shooter is dq'ed the name of the buddy is revealed and he is dq'ed as well.

Now you can start building a culture where every ones got some skin in the game. Every time you see a motherfucker do something wrong you know it could cost you the match!

 

[lash]

One other issue I see with smaller "club" level matches is there aren't enough people to RO. For each stage you might have one person on glass, and one other person is looking at a tablet to mark hits and misses. So no one is actually looking at the shooter for safety violations, NDs, etc. What you end up with is 10 people standing in line or staging their gear, half watching, and when the shooter does something unsafe no one says anything.

You don't typically have a thrid "moving" RO that physically follows the shooter closely like in 3-gun or IDPA.

That's how I've heard about guys ND'ing (into the dirt 30' in front of the barricade) and not being DQ'd. The spotter doesn't see splash but doesn't think anything of it, and the shooter just keeps plugging along, probably with his tail between his legs because he doesn't want to DQ himself even though he knows damn well he ND'd.

Maybe the solution for club matches is to designate someone in each squad to be an unofficial RO with the job of following shooters specifically to watch for these types of safety violations. They would need to be more involved on a barricade stage than a static prone stage. But ultimately anyone should be able to call anyone else out for a safety violation, up to stage/match DQ issues. But the MD would need to establish those rules at the safety brief, and make it clear what actions are warnings, stage DQ, match DQ, etc.

This is pretty much spot on. Even at larger matches, it’s difficult to get enough coverage to make sure that someone is always at a stage specifically for that reason. In IDPA and 3-gun, you have the targets for scoring and do it after the stage is run. With PRS, there has to be that extra set of eyes to call out impacts. So, as mentioned, you really need as many as three indirects at each stage: a spotter, a scorer, and an RSO.

Not very practical and very hard to accomplish in the real world.

 

[ForgeValley]

Maybe the solution for club matches is to designate someone in each squad to be an unofficial RO with the job of following shooters specifically to watch for these types of safety violations. They would need to be more involved on a barricade stage than a static prone stage. But ultimately anyone should be able to call anyone else out for a safety violation, up to stage/match DQ issues. But the MD would need to establish those rules at the safety brief, and make it clear what actions are warnings, stage DQ, match DQ, etc.

The problem I see with a lot of the proposed solutions it that in the current culture they are just more opportunities for shooters to trade favors.

Now consider a buddy system by random drawing. Each shooter draws a name out of the hat---The shooter don't get to read the name just hands it to the match director. Then if during the course of the match the shooter is dq'ed the name of the buddy is revealed and he is dq'ed as well.

Now you can start building a culture where every ones got some skin in the game. Every time you see a motherfucker do something wrong you know it could cost you the match!

It's going to have to be something like this. Self-policing. Take points, DQ, whatever we need to do. You can argue about a hit or miss, or whether you followed the stage, but there is no arguing with a safety violation called. Got your match ruined because you did something stupid? Cry me a river. At least hopefully everyone got to go home.

 

[morganlamprecht]

The problem I see with a lot of the proposed solutions it that in the current culture they are just more opportunities for shooters to trade favors.

Now consider a buddy system by random drawing. Each shooter draws a name out of the hat---The shooter don't get to read the name just hands it to the match director. Then if during the course of the match the shooter is dq'ed the name of the buddy is revealed and he is dq'ed as well.

Now you can start building a culture where every ones got some skin in the game. Every time you see a motherfucker do something wrong you know it could cost you the match!

huh? so if some random shooter slips and breaks 180 or NDs on a stage and gets DQ'd for a match...id get DQ'd also because he drew my name from a hat? hopefully im not following, cause if i am, that sounds retarded af...

 

[lash]

That's the first time I've heard that he basically hammered the bolt into battery. I walked up about 10 seconds after the detonation, not realizing what happened right away. The shooter in question is indeed DAMN lucky to have walked away with little more than powder burns (last I heard, anyway), but his action looked like it had been used for a hand grenade.

As mentioned, my understanding is a third hand account, so I cannot vouch for more than what I heard. My retelling was more so that those asking would have some context to apply for understanding what precipitated acronut’s concerns. This really shouldn’t be about the specific incident as much as forwarding the discussion for awareness.

If this thread does nothing more than make a bunch of people across the country think about these things the next time they are at a match, it will be a great start to improving the results.

Coming from an industrial background, I know that continuous awareness and the renewing of that awareness are the two best tools in the safety bag. All of the rules and regulations and protections in the world will not stop accidents from happening. But a constant vigilance and awareness can.

 

[acronut]

But the MD would need to establish those rules at the safety brief, and make it clear what actions are warnings, stage DQ, match DQ, etc.

The rules and penalties are already in place. MDs ROs and competitors just need to realize it and uphold them. And yes I agree they all should be reviewed at the safety brief.

 

[brianf]

Which is how it is supposed to work, no matter what state you’re in.

thats why you havent been shot yet

 

[samb300]

The rules and penalties are already in place. MDs ROs and competitors just need to realize it and uphold them. And yes I agree they all should be reviewed at the safety brief.

That's all well and good, but not every local non-PRS-sanctioned club match follows the PRS rules, or even has a published rule book for that matter.

 

[morganlamprecht]

the first "prs style" matches i started shooting didnt have a lot of these rules or the "standard" rules

off the top of my head i can think of...there was no 180 or 120 rule, it was up/down during movement and must be slung while walking around the range, no carrying and especially no suitcase carry...also no staging area, it was just "dont point it at anything you dont intend to shoot/destroy"

whats even crazier is its not always the person with the rifle doing the flagging...people will have 8 rifles set up angled off to the side down range into the brush and someone will come walkin up right in front of all the muzzles

 

[samb300]

There's also the grey area of "what is an ND?"

To some, firing unintentionally with the target in your scope and missing by 2 feet is an ND and requires match DQ. This could mean bumping the rifle on a barricade when your shouldn't have been on your 8oz trigger and it goes off, even though you were technically aimed. Hell, I've missed targets by 2 feet when I intentionally pulled the trigger but my wobble zone or breathing was horrible and I should've waited.

To others, an ND is something totally egregious, where the round impacts wildly away from the intended target. I.e. in the dirt 20' in front of the barricade or over the impact berm downrange.

 

[pmclaine]

OP makes good points.

Perhaps more people would call "Cease Fire" if the sanctions for doing so were not so severe.

Certainly the sanctions for not doing so could be worse but the ridicule for erring on the side of caution and being wrong or causing a guy to be DQ'd causes the hesitation.

We all want to be safe and the ultimate operator but if you are shooting with adrenaline and pressure the brain focuses on the goal not the peripherals.

Should a guy really be DQ'd if he just finishes a problem and forget to show clear and safe? Perhaps a gentle reminding the first time. If they show repeated pattern than you use stronger measures.

Ease the fear of calling "Cease Fire". Dont cry wolf but if in doubt shout it out. Congratulate the guy that stops a dangerous situation - maybe he earns a prize off the table.

Incentivize safety and sanction judiciously.

I dont shoot comps with a varying range of shooting skills but I do participate in yearly qualifications with a varying range of shooting skills.

Most of the people I shoot with in these sessions were introduced into the skill with the knowledge violations were to be met with severe sanctions, usually of some PT nature. Years later they still shoot on that range with fear of fucking up. The real scared ones are almost guaranteed to fuck up as a result even though that threat of sanctions is gone.

We all want new members in the sport. They wont join if they think they will be safety nazi'd for not having attained the muscle memory to show clear and empty after a stage.

Im not saying to let shit slide, safety cant be compromised, but if you make it too uncomfortable concerning the safety issues you may create safety issues.

If you can make a safety violation a learning experience than it has value, hopefully the knowledge doesnt cost in blood.

 

[acronut]

There's also the grey area of "what is an ND?

For PRS sanctioned contests here is the official definition. Seems pretty logical to me and I would think it could be grounds for local non PRS matches to follow as well.

 

[samb300]

For PRS sanctioned contests here is the official definition. Seems pretty logical to me and I would think it could be grounds for local non PRS matches to follow as well.

1.3.6.6 is what is so vague to me...

"A shot which occurs before the shooter intended to shoot, regardless if the shot remains in the range span."

I remember the hoopla after the PRS final with the thread about all the DQ's. To one person, bumping the gun on a barricade - bang it goes off - misses by 2 feet, well that's enough for him to DQ himself from the whole match. Maybe everyone at the finale has the skill to never miss by 2 feet so it would've raised an eyebrow regardless. Maybe no one would have even noticed.

I'm not a lawyer, but I could try to argue like one here. I could say every single round fired that misses not due to wind is fired before or after a shooter intended. Without wind, everyone should have a 100% hit count because people only fire when they intend to fire.

The reality is there are new shooters mixed in with the skilled shooters at every match. The person that wins may fire every single round with intention and truly only miss because of wind. The bottom-pack shooter may have a large percentage of their shots miss by multiple feet, but they intended to hit the target every time.

If you're the RO in a vacuum looking only through the spotting scope, how would you determine which is which?

 

[Tx_Aggie]

1.3.6.6 is what is so vague to me...

"A shot which occurs before the shooter intended to shoot, regardless if the shot remains in the range span."

I remember the hoopla after the PRS final with the thread about all the DQ's. To one person, bumping the gun on a barricade - bang it goes off - misses by 2 feet, well that's enough for him to DQ himself from the whole match. Maybe everyone at the finale has the skill to never miss by 2 feet so it would've raised an eyebrow regardless. Maybe no one would have even noticed.

I'm not a lawyer, but I could try to argue like one here. I could say every single round fired that misses not due to wind is fired before or after a shooter intended. Without wind, everyone should have a 100% hit count because people only fire when they intend to fire.

The reality is there are new shooters mixed in with the skilled shooters at every match. The person that wins may fire every single round with intention and truly only miss because of wind. The bottom-pack shooter may have a large percentage of their shots miss by multiple feet, but they intended to hit the target every time.

If you're the RO in a vacuum looking only through the spotting scope, how would you determine which is which?

I really can't see how bumping your gun on a barricade and it going off falls into any sort of grey area, regardless of where the round impacts.

 

[ForgeValley]

I really can't see how bumping your gun on a barricade and it going off falls into any sort of grey area, regardless of where the round impacts.

Yup, no grey area there for me either. That's me DQ'ing myself every time. Stupid should hurt.

 

[xNF_9]

I really can't see how bumping your gun on a barricade and it going off falls into any sort of grey area, regardless of where the round impacts.

They were moving with no bolt back and a chambered round. Which is wrong or their trigger is way too light for safe operation. Shouldn’t happen in the first place.

 

[acronut]

If you're the RO in a vacuum looking only through the spotting scope, how would you determine which is which?

Yes this is a problem... spotters shouldn’t be the ROs. You can’t monitor the safety of a shooter looking through a spotting scope. Complexity of this sport which is seldom addressed.

 

[samb300]

Just playing devil's advocate here...

You're looking through the scope, round in the chamber, reticle 'near' target --- unintentionally bump your rifle on a barricade, gun goes off, miraculously you impact the target. Do you immediately call cease fire and DQ yourself from the PRS finale?

I'm a new shooter, trying my hardest but I just can't get my wobble zone anywhere near the target. I pull the trigger with intent, but miss by 3 feet. All is good?

I'm saying there is a grey area because no one is in your head besides you, and except for egregious cases where safety violations are easily visible by other people, there are probably lots of rounds fired at every match that "weren't intentional." Like I said before, everyone intends to hit the target with every shot, but it doesn't mean that every shot is fired at the exact moment that it should have been. In that case, what is intent?

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Yes this is a problem... spotters shouldn’t be the ROs. You can’t monitor the safety of a shooter looking through a spotting scope. Complexity of this sport which is seldom addressed.

When my wife and I RO together, I am the one to brief shooters, answer questions, and spot targets. She handled getting the shooters name, pulling them up in the iPad, and monitoring safety. If I'm able to come off glass between shooting positions, I will do so to put a second pair of eyes on the shooter, then drop back into the binos.spotter when they are in position.

 

[xNF_9]

Just playing devil's advocate here...

You're looking through the scope, round in the chamber, reticle 'near' target --- unintentionally bump your rifle on a barricade, gun goes off, miraculously you impact the target. Do you immediately call cease fire and DQ yourself from the PRS finale?

I'm a new shooter, trying my hardest but I just can't get my wobble zone anywhere near the target. I pull the trigger with intent, but miss by 3 feet. All is good?

I'm saying there is a grey area because no one is in your head besides you, and except for egregious cases where safety violations are easily visible by other people, there are probably lots of rounds fired at every match that "weren't intentional." Like I said before, everyone intends to hit the target with every shot, but it doesn't mean that every shot is fired at the exact moment that it should have been. In that case, what is intent?

@samb300 i won’t argue with that as you present something an RO can’t control. Your own integrity and honesty. If we are talking about managing that as an RO it won’t happen.

The other issue that was brought up was where rifles were carried care free and placed in unsafe areas. This is an issue but I can’t talk for it but it seems like many people have had experiences all over the board. Some with this never happening and some with multiple at the same match. Happening more than once is too much for me but that’s the risk we take signing up for smaller matches where they can’t get enough RO’s for the match or don’t care about safety.

Good thing is you are not bound and forced to go to these matches.