PRS Talk PRS Safety Culture

[davere]

I've said this on a few different threads here and on FB (@LH_Gina had one on FB recently)... start DQ'ing fuckers and word will get around and behaviors will change. Want a great way to lose a $1000 (match fee, airfare, hotel stay, food, ammo already expended)? Flag someone with your muzzle. That should be the attitude, but it isn't because the rule doesn't get enforced in some (many?) places. I've attended two whole PRS matches in Texas, and I've been flagged more times than I can count. It's worse than a damn shotgun range.

I think @The Hey is spot on that we, as shooters, need to call out our peers on their bullshit, and we need to make damn sure that we're doing the right thing ourselves, too. However, change needs to happen at the levels above, as well - if it's just some dickhead from Austin yelling at you to not waive your muzzle at him, who really cares? Maybe if I start dick punching assholes every time I see a muzzle, things will change? Not likely - I'll just get invited to not come back.

First things first - any match that doesn't provide designated grounding areas for rifles is doing the shooters a disservice. I like what it sounds like Rifles Only did by penalizing people for walking downrange from those areas, and preventing magazines from being in the area. Those are great steps. I cringe every time I walk up to a stage and go to ground my rifle, only to come back to it, and there's a gaggle of shooters and spectators standing downrange from it. It's so stupid, and so easy to address.

But once you get past that, if there's no will within the leadership of the match to enforce the rules and DQ the living shit out of some people - including, and maybe especially including, the jersey'd shooters, nothing will change, even if those of us who give a shit become raging lunatics about it (and I'm not at all saying we shouldn't ... it might be kinda fun, even).

I come from the USPSA/IPSC world, and the safety culture there works from all levels, just as it should, and for good reason. They have consistent range commands that are consistently used by all ROs - and when ROs screw up and use the wrong ones, someone calls their shit on it. If there's an impending safety issue, multiple people will yell "STOP!", and if it turns out to be nothing, no harm, no foul. Shooter gets a reshoot and we move on. If anyone handles a gun outside of a safe area (designated area for handling guns - no magazines containing ammunition allowed to be handled in the safe area), it's an immediate match DQ. That means if you bump your gun out of your holster, you don't try to catch it - you let it hit the ground, and you want right there for someone to get an RO to safely retrieve your gun so you can take your dumb ass to the safe area and clean it, and fix your stupid holster. I've seen people sent home from USPSA matches for all manner of things - and people will inevitably act in a (safe) way to prevent themselves from being sent home if they know the threat of a match DQ is real. I would submit that in PRS/NRL events as they stand today, that threat is seen as being a rather empty one.

I've been DQ'ed from exactly one USPSA match, so far. I ran past a target and indexed into it late, breaking the 180. The RO yelled stop, and then - knowing my stature in the area as a skilled shooter, questioned himself about the call. I told him to stop it - did I break the 180 or not? He said "yes". I said, "Then make the right call". I then gave him a good natured ear full about why he shouldn't even question himself - doesn't matter how good I am as a shooter, if I blow it, I go home.

In short, hang 'em high. Get DQ happy for a while, and see how things change. Be a dick to your squad mates when they screw up. Act as an agent of change for safety, and fuck anyone who doesn't like it!

(I guess I'm in a mood... ha ha)

 

[lash]

Separate, but similar topic. The sub 8oz triggers are going to get someone hurt as well.

The past year I’ve lost count how many times I’ve heard “oh shit” when a round goes off and shooter wasn’t 100% ready. Sometimes it’s and impact, sometimes it’s not.

Thankfull it’s always happened while they were pointing down range and generally at target.

Eventually we won’t be so lucky.

I agree with this. Seen it, saw it, seed it, it been done. Those that are doing it, know it, but are still either in denial or egotistically think themselves better than to be held to the same standard as others.

One man’s opinion, based on reality of what I see.

 

[diverdon]

Lash and Davre, what do you think the lowest acceptable trigger weight should be?

 

[xNF_9]

I've been DQ'ed from exactly one USPSA match, so far. I ran past a target and indexed into it late, breaking the 180. The RO yelled stop, and then - knowing my stature in the area as a skilled shooter, questioned himself about the call. I told him to stop it - did I break the 180 or not? He said "yes". I said, "Then make the right call". I then gave him a good natured ear full about why he shouldn't even question himself - doesn't matter how good I am as a shooter, if I blow it, I go home.

This is the way people need to keep the standard. At work most of us here on the hide are held to a higher standard than most. In law enforcement we are expected to do everything correctly at all times. This is one place that it needs to happen.

 

[lash]

Lash and Davre, what do you think the lowest acceptable trigger weight should be?

That’s a fair question and a hard one to put a figure on. Let’s first talk about the kind of sport we are engaging in. It’s an action sport, with tight timed movement, over under and around barricades, using high powered rifles.

It used to be that 2 lbs was the reasonable low limit. Say around 2010-2015, based upon my best addled memory. Now, 2 lbs is considered high and even I run around 1.5 lbs. Yet, as I confessed above, I had an ND even so.

I truly don’t think that it should come down to measuring trigger pull weights as much as cracking down on those that are not in control of their rifle and trigger at all times. That is really the crux of the issue, is it not?

 

[VP47PPC]

Around dangerous S**T "Complacency Kills" .

 

[diverdon]

That’s a fair question and a hard one to put a figure on. Let’s first talk about the kind of sport we are engaging in. It’s an action sport, with tight timed movement, over under and around barricades, using high powered rifles.

It used to be that 2 lbs was the reasonable low limit. Say around 2010-2015, based upon my best addled memory. Now, 2 lbs is considered high and even I run around 1.5 lbs. Yet, as I confessed above, I had an ND even so.

I truly don’t think that it should come down to measuring trigger pull weights as much as cracking down on those that are not in control of their rifle and trigger at all times. That is really the crux of the issue, is it not?

Currently most of my rifles are set to 1.5 pounds (not counting hunting or collector rifles.) So I asked the question to see if with proper rifle safety handling that was considered too light, by other shooters who had put thought into the issue.

 

[davere]

Lash and Davre, what do you think the lowest acceptable trigger weight should be?

To me, the lowest acceptable weight is what will run without malfunction with the gun, and that will only go off when the shooter intentionally pulls the trigger (as opposed to when he just lays his finger on the trigger, or has it resting there and moves some other part of his body). That’s going to be different for everyone, and is greatly dependent on the shooter’s awareness and sensitivity.

That said, I should not at all be considered the expert, here... LOL. For me, with a TT Diamond Pro Curve, 10 oz is very safe and manageable, but if I give that rifle to a newer shooter, or someone used to running a 4# AR trigger, it’s going to be AD city. And my trigger isn’t “light” by PRS standards, it seems? I’ve been playing with it in practice at about 8 oz, but am planning on going back up to 10.

Edit to add - I have a Remington 40-X in the safe that has a 2 oz benchrest trigger on it. That thing is just downright silly.

 

[Willywonka]

I agree like most of they others have been flagged by a muzzle too many times, seen bolts closed on live round with bugger hook in the trigger gaurd, so on and so forth I have called out shooters in every instance I have seen to find out that the behavior continues time after time. I personally think warnings are bullshit first offence 5 point penalty (for flagging or moving positions with closed bolt ect.) Second time dq why dance around when someone could get killed! Just my thoughts.

 

[davere]

Currently most of my rifles are set to 1.5 pounds (not counting hunting or collector rifles.) So I asked the question to see if with proper rifle safety handling that was considered too light, by other shooters who had put thought into the issue.

I agree with @lash - it’s a good question and worth exploring. I’ve shot single action 1911s with 1.5# triggers for a long time, so I’m used to that weight. On the rifle, I started there, and then over time found a threshold where I started to do stupid shit in dry fire. I added weight until that stopped 100% of the time. That happened to be 10 oz. lately, that’s been feeling heavy to me, so I played around a little.

There’s a curse in running a light trigger - it makes it harder to shoot “real gun triggers”. A 5# factory Glock trigger feels like a 14# revolver, to me. I have to work at real guns to keep it together.

 

[Mormegil87]

Search "Normalization of Deviance". Every time we get away with less than safe practice and it doesn't result in the associated consequences we start to believe that those consequences don't exist. Until they do...

The "Normalization of Deviance" has occurred in large swaths of the precision rifle community.

 

[Inline6]

I feel as old as dirt sometimes and now reading all this makes me feel even older.

Safety is a fucked up prescription in this sport. I have competed in matches where a gentleman shot himself in the leg (Pistol). Matches where the competitors were set a few hundred yards back and off set by less that 20° shooting with other competitors in front of them. Have been on the line with an ND while ROs were heading down to check targets (why did this happen because it was said go ahead dry fire while the ROs are in front of you). I have seen the top in the sport dry fire with ROs down range. I have been to a competition again where there was a 20° or less offset and other competitors had to walk to the next stage down the same line others where firing down. I had the hair on my neck stand up when I walked it. Why did I? I can't honestly tell you i was fucking dumb.... I have called mag in more times then I can count. I have seen more people flagged then I can comprehend. It doesn't make a fuck if it has a chamber flag or not you are still fundamentally fucking yourself by that action.

In the field of competition you should be pushing yourself to do better and sometimes you fuck up. But own your mistakes and learn. Help others learn( when Patrick Morris was 15 and I in my 30s he discussed a stag with, he explained why he thought like he did. He pointed out "do you see how all the targets are missed to the right. That's wind pushing the bullets." I cleaned that stage and that was the only one I did and that was my first match of that style.)that is what this sport started out for me. Some of the people I have met due to being involved in this sport are now my closest friends.

I have read what everyone has said here. The theme is how to change the culture. Some of the suggestions have good intentions but not practical. If the PRS truly wants better ROs it's a simple fix, require all that are registered to RO a match as part of the match fees/ membership. You was then get a lot of good ROs even the new guys need to get their cherry popped. Is this the end all be all no. You won't change the buddy system have seen more of this than I care to admit but the truth is it is there.

And when it comes to personal responsibility... I'm a few drinks in and any grammar errors I'm blaming on the Vodka.

 

[Jts2581]

Why didn’t I yell stop? I asked myself that over and over again after I saw a fellow competitor blow up his rifle the other week. Why did I back up and turn my face away, but I didn’t have the courage to yell stop? Why did I see several others do the same as me? What held us back from stopping a life threatening incident when we all knew something was probably going to go very wrong? I have come to the conclusion that it is a complete lack of safety culture an most PRS matches. The rules are there black and white, but no one is enforcing them, and the venues do not promote it. I am not an accomplished shooter, but I have exposed myself to multiple shooting sports including USPSA, IDPA, 3 gun matches, carbine matches, CMP matches etc… Every one of those shooting sports have a zero tolerance policy for safety infractions to include
-flagging anyone including yourself
-180 degree rule
-leaving the firing line with a mag in or a loaded firearm
-Loading before RO direction
-AD or ND

I see on the PRS website that all of these issues are addressed in the rule book with associated penalties. Unfortunately, I have yet to be at a PRS event where these rules were upheld. Sometimes NDs get competitors DQed but not nearly as often as it should. Sometimes during a stage an RO will catch a muzzle break the 180, or have a competitor start to leave the line with a mag in, or missing chamber flag, but all they do is mention it… No penalties, no big deal. I didn’t even know PRS was supposed to have a 120 degree rule until I read the official rules before writing this. Never once has this been mentioned during a safety briefing I’ve been to, let alone enforced.

At a recent major match, I first hand witnessed the following and I’ve seen similar things at most matches I’ve been to.
- Rifles staged everywhere and anywhere pointing all directions with people manipulating them.
- People constantly flagging themselves and other shooters while walking and manipulating their rifles.
- Twice Jersey wearing team shooters loaded mags before RO instruction. Once the RO was with the previous competitor downrange of the now loaded firearm and the firearm was pointed in their direction. RO came out, saw it, made a little speech to not do that and then pressed on.
- Two very obvious NDs during stages, but the ROs didn’t catch it because they were both on glass. Both competitors knew they did it, looked disgusted with themselves, then realized the ROs hadn’t caught it, so they pressed on.
- One ND where the shooter called himself on it, realized the ROs hadn’t noticed, plead his case that he was safe because he stopped himself and therefore only got a stage DQ instead of a match DQ.
- Shooters changing positions on barricades with bolt closed.
- Several shooters walking away from the line with mags in and many with no chamber flags.
-1 shooter during a stage chambered a round, RO yelled time, then turned away to enter scores. Competitor picked up his rifle, fortunately muzzle pointed up, turned around and started to walk off the stage. I yelled stop 3 times before he and both ROs stopped and looked at me. I said bolt and mag!! "Ohh yea, ok" unloaded his chamber and dropped his mag still facing us instead of downrange. He took another step and I said “chamber flag!’ Which he then dug out of a pocket and put in. ROs got back to scoring and brought the next competitor to the line, nothing done or said.

Why is it ok to have guns on tables or on the ground pointed at people? Why aren’t there designated areas to put guns pointed downrange or at berms where no one can walk in front of them. Simple rifle racks could be put in other communal areas where this isn’t possible.

Why is it ok to carry a rifle like a suitcase or flat on a cart, or over their shoulder flagging everyone?

Why isn’t one RO watching each competitor for safety violations during the entire stage and enforcing them?

Why didn’t I yell stop to the competitor before he blew up his rifle??? Because I had never seen someone at a PRS event stopped for anything except a very obvious ND… Because I thought everyone would look at me as a low scoring nobody ruining a competitive shooters possible winnings on the last stage of the match… Because I had been in an environment for the previous three days that obviously had very little concern for safety. I am so very thankful that he wasn’t hurt or killed, because I was in a position to save his life and I did nothing. I won’t do nothing again, I am committing myself to be that guy, that safety nazi, that Ahole that won’t let people ignore the rules… How about you guys? Will you commit to changing the safety culture of the PRS with me? It will be a big change, maybe not from the initial intent, or the current rules… But it will be a big change a soon as people start to enforce the rules. It will be very unpopular to start DQing mass numbers of competitors in the process no matter who they are or how little of an infraction it seems to be, especially at the bigger matches with big prize tables. The local matches usually have a better handle on things but it’s definitely still an issue. Do you all agree that we have a problem that needs to change, or is it going to take someone getting killed before we wake up and change it? It’s not hard to find looking at videos and pictures from all over our sport posted to social media. I know I’ve been part of the problem because I haven’t been stopping it, that I can assure you will change. Once competitors realize they need to follow the rules or they will be DQed, they will follow the rules, just like all the other shooting sports. Until then, we are begging for disaster.

Sincerely,
Kendal Simpson

I was also at this match viewing this go down with the rifle and I was pretty shocked the Safety Officer did not step in and stop what was happening. I also am guilty of turning my head knowing the possibilities of what could happen. I’m a long time competitive shooter in USPSA and 3 gun. This was my first major PRS Style match and to say I was pretty shocked at the amount of violations that occurred that if this were a different format, the competitor would’ve been sent home. Everywhere I turned I was staring down a different barrel which was a little unnerving. I know that precision matches in this capacity are somewhat new but this is definitely something that needs to be worked on. I saw a shooter get down off of the firing line mag in, bolt locked on a live round. And it was a competitor that had to step in and let the shooter know he was still HOT. The RO never said a word. With a 1lb trigger it wouldn’t take much to crank a round off into a crowd, and with barrels pointing every which direction it could get really dangerous. I love the game and will continue competing, but this was something I noticed that needed pretty serious attention. I know the RO’s are volunteers busting there ass and doing their best. Maybe if there were some guidelines put in place by the governing bodies it could help these matters. I think it should be required that the RO’s visually inspect that a rifle is clear before the shooter leaves the line like in all other competitive formats. We’ve all been taught to do this everyone we work on a firearm. I’m really not trying to stir anything up, but there were some clear safety issues that wouldn’t be too hard to fix. Everything is always ok until it isn’t. Why not take some preemptive measure to keep everyone safe.

Thnx,
Tucker Schmidt

 

[Jts2581]

Why didn’t I yell stop? I asked myself that over and over again after I saw a fellow competitor blow up his rifle the other week. Why did I back up and turn my face away, but I didn’t have the courage to yell stop? Why did I see several others do the same as me? What held us back from stopping a life threatening incident when we all knew something was probably going to go very wrong? I have come to the conclusion that it is a complete lack of safety culture an most PRS matches. The rules are there black and white, but no one is enforcing them, and the venues do not promote it. I am not an accomplished shooter, but I have exposed myself to multiple shooting sports including USPSA, IDPA, 3 gun matches, carbine matches, CMP matches etc… Every one of those shooting sports have a zero tolerance policy for safety infractions to include
-flagging anyone including yourself
-180 degree rule
-leaving the firing line with a mag in or a loaded firearm
-Loading before RO direction
-AD or ND

I see on the PRS website that all of these issues are addressed in the rule book with associated penalties. Unfortunately, I have yet to be at a PRS event where these rules were upheld. Sometimes NDs get competitors DQed but not nearly as often as it should. Sometimes during a stage an RO will catch a muzzle break the 180, or have a competitor start to leave the line with a mag in, or missing chamber flag, but all they do is mention it… No penalties, no big deal. I didn’t even know PRS was supposed to have a 120 degree rule until I read the official rules before writing this. Never once has this been mentioned during a safety briefing I’ve been to, let alone enforced.

At a recent major match, I first hand witnessed the following and I’ve seen similar things at most matches I’ve been to.
- Rifles staged everywhere and anywhere pointing all directions with people manipulating them.
- People constantly flagging themselves and other shooters while walking and manipulating their rifles.
- Twice Jersey wearing team shooters loaded mags before RO instruction. Once the RO was with the previous competitor downrange of the now loaded firearm and the firearm was pointed in their direction. RO came out, saw it, made a little speech to not do that and then pressed on.
- Two very obvious NDs during stages, but the ROs didn’t catch it because they were both on glass. Both competitors knew they did it, looked disgusted with themselves, then realized the ROs hadn’t caught it, so they pressed on.
- One ND where the shooter called himself on it, realized the ROs hadn’t noticed, plead his case that he was safe because he stopped himself and therefore only got a stage DQ instead of a match DQ.
- Shooters changing positions on barricades with bolt closed.
- Several shooters walking away from the line with mags in and many with no chamber flags.
-1 shooter during a stage chambered a round, RO yelled time, then turned away to enter scores. Competitor picked up his rifle, fortunately muzzle pointed up, turned around and started to walk off the stage. I yelled stop 3 times before he and both ROs stopped and looked at me. I said bolt and mag!! "Ohh yea, ok" unloaded his chamber and dropped his mag still facing us instead of downrange. He took another step and I said “chamber flag!’ Which he then dug out of a pocket and put in. ROs got back to scoring and brought the next competitor to the line, nothing done or said.

Why is it ok to have guns on tables or on the ground pointed at people? Why aren’t there designated areas to put guns pointed downrange or at berms where no one can walk in front of them. Simple rifle racks could be put in other communal areas where this isn’t possible.

Why is it ok to carry a rifle like a suitcase or flat on a cart, or over their shoulder flagging everyone?

Why isn’t one RO watching each competitor for safety violations during the entire stage and enforcing them?

Why didn’t I yell stop to the competitor before he blew up his rifle??? Because I had never seen someone at a PRS event stopped for anything except a very obvious ND… Because I thought everyone would look at me as a low scoring nobody ruining a competitive shooters possible winnings on the last stage of the match… Because I had been in an environment for the previous three days that obviously had very little concern for safety. I am so very thankful that he wasn’t hurt or killed, because I was in a position to save his life and I did nothing. I won’t do nothing again, I am committing myself to be that guy, that safety nazi, that Ahole that won’t let people ignore the rules… How about you guys? Will you commit to changing the safety culture of the PRS with me? It will be a big change, maybe not from the initial intent, or the current rules… But it will be a big change a soon as people start to enforce the rules. It will be very unpopular to start DQing mass numbers of competitors in the process no matter who they are or how little of an infraction it seems to be, especially at the bigger matches with big prize tables. The local matches usually have a better handle on things but it’s definitely still an issue. Do you all agree that we have a problem that needs to change, or is it going to take someone getting killed before we wake up and change it? It’s not hard to find looking at videos and pictures from all over our sport posted to social media. I know I’ve been part of the problem because I haven’t been stopping it, that I can assure you will change. Once competitors realize they need to follow the rules or they will be DQed, they will follow the rules, just like all the other shooting sports. Until then, we are begging for disaster.

Sincerely,
Kendal Simpson

 

[Dthomas3523]

Manufacturer/sponsors need to consider changes as well.

Here are two product examples(there are plenty others) which promote unsafe handling of firearms:

 

[xNF_9]

@Dthomas3523 Please ignore my ignorance but what is the leather Beretta above image for?

 

[Dthomas3523]

@Dthomas3523 Please ignore my ignorance but what is the leather Beretta above image for?

Get this shit......it goes on your shoe (snaps into lace) to give you a place to rest your shotgun barrel.

Literally flagging your own foot and they made a product to promote this practice.

 

[DaveM]

Does there need to be a penalty free mechanism for anyone seeing a problem to call a cease fire? In this case, if the shooter was able to stop (penalty free) mid stage to insure there was no dangerous rifle condition, the accident may never have happened. I'm referring to a similar system of alibis that is used in bullseye matches. Malfunctions can happen for any number of reasons.

Should shooters have to risk the whole match or the $1000 bucks spent on the weekend by not stopping to insure safety when they should? Or should they be able to stop, check to be sure no dangerous conditions are present, and continue or restart the stage?

In my opinion, the action shooting sports and even now the bullseye sports are getting a little too unforgiving when it comes to equipment or ammo failures. Sometimes the right thing to do is to stop and double check your shit. This is a sport we all do for fun. We aren't training for combat.

 

[xNF_9]

Get this shit......it goes on your shoe (snaps into lace) to give you a place to rest your shotgun barrel.

Literally flagging your own foot and they made a product to promote this practice.

Well the gun is unloaded and it’s a great rest. You don’t ruin your new boots that way either. *added sarcasm*

 

[Mormegil87]

Manufacturer/sponsors need to consider changes as well.

Here are two product examples(there are plenty others) which promote unsafe handling of firearms:

I have the Armageddon Gear rifle cover and have seriously considered cutting the handle off just so I don't get lazy and tempted to use it for carrying my gun.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Does there need to be a penalty free mechanism for anyone seeing a problem to call a cease fire? In this case, if the shooter was able to stop (penalty free) mid stage to insure there was no dangerous rifle condition, the accident may never have happened. I'm referring to a similar system of alibis that is used in bullseye matches. Malfunctions can happen for any number of reasons.

Should shooters have to risk the whole match or the $1000 bucks spent on the weekend by not stopping to insure safety when they should? Or should they be able to stop, check to be sure no dangerous conditions are present, and continue or restart the stage?

In my opinion, the action shooting sports and even now the bullseye sports are getting a little too unforgiving when it comes to equipment or ammo failures. Sometimes the right thing to do is to stop and double check your shit. This is a sport we all do for fun. We aren't training for combat.

Gonna have to disagree with this one. Few reasons:

1: even though this has evolved into a game, it’s roots are in practical use. You don’t get to say time out when you have an equipment issue

2: it will be abused all to shit. Guys will be claiming an equipment issue because they are doing badly on a stage

3: people are here for different reasons. While you may not be training for combat, some people are using matches for this purpose


The answer to safety isn’t to make extra allowances.

The point of being under time isn’t just to get all the rounds off under time. It is to assess all skills related to precision rifle. You need to be cognizant enough under stress (time) to see that you have a malfunction that isn’t going to get cleared under time, or to clear it and get the shots off that you can under the remaining time.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I have the Armageddon Gear rifle cover and have seriously considered cutting the handle off just so I don't get lazy and tempted to use it for carrying my gun.

I agree. If I get one, I’m going to cut the handle off.

I think they are great products. I just think the manufacturers should make them without handles.

 

[DaveM]

Gonna have to disagree with this one. Few reasons:

1: even though this has evolved into a game, it’s roots are in practical use. You don’t get to say time out when you have an equipment issue

2: it will be abused all to shit. Guys will be claiming an equipment issue because they are doing badly on a stage

3: people are here for different reasons. While you may not be training for combat, some people are using matches for this purpose


The answer to safety isn’t to make extra allowances.

The point of being under time isn’t just to get all the rounds off under time. It is to assess all skills related to precision rifle. You need to be cognizant enough under stress (time) to see that you have a malfunction that isn’t going to get cleared under time, or to clear it and get the shots off that you can under the remaining time.

All perfectly legit reasons not to have alibis (for lack of a better term).

However, is preventing these predicted abuses worth someone's facing getting blown off or other very serious injuries? I'm ok with strict rules, but not when it compromises range and firearm safety.

 

[Dthomas3523]

All perfectly legit reasons not to have alibis (for lack of a better term).

However, is preventing these predicted abuses worth someone's facing getting blown off or other very serious injuries? I'm ok with strict rules, but not when it compromises range and firearm safety.

This would be like blaming guns when someone shoots up a school.

It’s not the rules’ fault someone decides to jam a round home (plenty of other examples) and then blows their face off. If you’re dumb and/or careless enough to do something like that just to get points at a match, well, Darwin wins that one.

At some point, you’re accountable for your own safety and adding rules isn’t going to help.

This is totally different than an RO or other shooter calling a cease fire for something they see. In that case, if there was no actual safety issue, then either A) reshoot or B) you go back to your last position and given the remainder of the time to finish the stage.

If there is a safety violation and someone else calls cease fire, tough shit. Either A) you get the amount of points you had when stopped B) stage or match DQ

 

[Slo cat]

I'm a trained SO in IDPA and a trained RO in USPSA. I had to attend a day-long class and take a written test to get my certificate in these areas. I've only shot two PRS matches. What is the training requirement to be a PRS RO? In the two matches I've shot, they appeared to just appoint the most experienced shooter at the squad RO. Is this usual? Fortunately, there was absolutely no flagging at the PRS matches I attended. But no one at all used a chamber flag at all in these two matches. I just reread the rules and there is a definate requirement for their use. WTF? If RO's are volunteers with no formal training, how do you expect the rules to be enforced?

 

[Dthomas3523]

I'm a trained SO in IDPA and a trained RO in USPSA. I had to attend a day-long class and take a written test to get my certificate in these areas. I've only shot two PRS matches. What is the training requirement to be a PRS RO? In the two matches I've shot, they appeared to just appoint the most experienced shooter at the squad RO. Is this usual? Fortunately, there was absolutely no flagging at the PRS matches I attended. But no one at all used a chamber flag at all in these two matches. I just reread the rules and there is a definate requirement for their use. WTF? If RO's are volunteers with no formal training, how do you expect the rules to be enforced?

Are you referring to an actual PRS or NRL event?

If so, they typically have non shooting ROs. I agree more training needs to happen for ROs.

But from your example, it sounds like it was a local match. So I’m not sure which rules you are referring to that requires chamber flags unless it is a local rule book.

 

[DaveM]

I agree RO training and separation of scoring and spotting duties needs to be expanded.

This isn’t like blaming guns for a school shooter. My point is that there’s a 60,000psi reaction going on next to your face. It’s not the place to be telling a nervous/excited shooter “too bad, so sad”. PRS is just a game and we all need to go home safe. If there is no “out” for a possible issue like a squib, someone will get hurt eventually.

 

[Slo cat]

But from your example, it sounds like it was a local match. So I’m not sure which rules you are referring to that requires chamber flags unless it is a local rule book.

From the PRS web site: "1.2.3 Chamber flags or other Empty Chamber Indicator (ECI) will be utilized at all times and must be fully inserted into the chamber (not just the breach)"

The match results showed the PRS points awarded.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I agree RO training and separation of scoring and spotting duties needs to be expanded.

This isn’t like blaming guns for a school shooter. My point is that there’s a 60,000psi reaction going on next to your face. It’s not the place to be telling a nervous/excited shooter “too bad, so sad”. PRS is just a game and we all need to go home safe. If there is no “out” for a possible issue like a squib, someone will get hurt eventually.

The “out” is you realize you have a problem and you stop shooting.

You’re attempting to take responsibility off the shooter for not knowing the condition of his/her weapon at all times.

In the long run, you will create a training deficiency.

If I can call a time out for a malfunction, go clear it on my own time and come back to a stage, how will I ever learn to efficiently clear a malfunction?

This is exactly like blaming guns. You are asserting that a shooter will risk his own safety because he could lose points for a failure. That it’s somehow the rules that “make” the shooter do this or “risk” the shokter’s safety.

Tough shit. That’s how life goes. If your car breaks down on the way to the airport, you miss your flight. As a society, we need to quit putting safety nets in place and teach people how to be responsible.

 

[Dthomas3523]

From the PRS web site: "1.2.3 Chamber flags or other Empty Chamber Indicator (ECI) will be utilized at all times and must be fully inserted into the chamber (not just the breach)"

The match results showed the PRS points awarded.

So this was an actual PRS two day match?

 

[Slo cat]

So this was an actual PRS two day match?

Here are the match results. I'm new at this. You decide if it was a real PRS match. It was a one day match. Don't nit pick me on what kind of match this was for fucks sake. The point is that PRS rules were NOT followed.

Precision Rifle Series - The Cheese Challenge - Mar 09, 2019

The Precision Rifle Series is the preeminent rifle organization in the world, structuring a yearly points race for both the PRS Pro Bolt Gun Series and the PRS Regional Series. The PRS Championship Shooting Series is synonymous with precision rifle shooting.

www.precisionrifleseries.com

 

[xNF_9]

Looks like a one day match that is PRS sanctioned.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Looks like a one day match that is PRS sanctioned.

That’s beyond my knowledge. Are all PRS rules in effect for 1 day sanctioned events?

If so, the flags should have been required.

 

[xNF_9]

Well, I assume if it is on the “PRS” website that it would be PRS sanctioned. And that would lead me to believe they should follow the same rules as PRS has. I am by no means a MD either.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Local range rules commonly overrule PRS rules

Just like ROs mag out rule on movement...some ranges are strict about chamber flags, others don’t enforce it at all

All “PRS sanctioned” means is the MD went thru the steps of adding an event and submitting scores...the PRS isn’t actually there to enforce anything...end of the day it’s on the range/MD

 

[xNF_9]

So you don’t need to follow PRS rules if the MD doesn’t care or enforce it but still have a PRS sanctioned event? That sounds counter intuitive to me but logic isn’t a strong suit of mine.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Technically they should have to follow them...but range owners/MDs don’t always let someone else call the shots on their ranges

 

[Jts2581]

Looks like a one day match that is PRS sanctioned.

It was a 2 day prs pro match

 

[xNF_9]

Technically they should have to follow them...but range owners/MDs don’t always let someone else call the shots on their ranges

And this is why this whole thread was started. As some have mentioned many ranges/MDs are hard asses on safety protocols while others are unsafe/don’t care. Which needs to change before someone gets hurt or worse and makes a headline.

 

[xNF_9]

It was a 2 day prs pro match

Thanks for correcting me!

 

[morganlamprecht]

And this is why this whole thread was started. As some have mentioned many ranges/MDs are hard asses on safety protocols while others are unsafe/don’t care. Which needs to change before someone gets hurt or worse and makes a headline.

That’s what I said in the beginning also, ranges/MDs need to buckle down cause it sounds like certain places are way more lax than others

 

[kriller134]

Technically they should have to follow them...but range owners/MDs don’t always let someone else call the shots on their ranges

I don’t get this at all. If you’re gonna promote a match using a sanctioning body’s name you should absolutely follow their rules and not make up your own. Uspsa has different level matches 1,2,3..... the rules get stricter the higher the level match. If you don’t follow their rules and regulations then it’s not a uspsa match. The governing bodies needs to start enforcing their own rules and if the MD has a problem with it then they’re not allowed to promote it as a PRS/NRL match. At the end of the day it reflects poorly on the organizations.

 

[LH_Gina]

Thanks for correcting me!

Not to have you kids go too far off topic here, but that Cheese Challenge match is listed as a 1-day match in the Rocky Mountain Region. They should be using chamber flags but MD's occasionally do their own thing when it comes to them. Perhaps their regional director could steer them in the right direction.

Can we get back to the other safety topics now?

 

[morganlamprecht]

I don’t get this at all. If you’re gonna promote a match using a sanctioning body’s name you should absolutely follow their rules and not make up your own. Uspsa has different level matches 1,2,3..... the rules get stricter the higher the level match. If you don’t follow their rules and regulations then it’s not a uspsa match. The governing bodies needs to start enforcing their own rules and if the MD has a problem with it then they’re not allowed to promote it as a PRS/NRL match. At the end of the day it reflects poorly on the organizations.

You aren’t wrong

I’m not arguing for/against either way...just pointing out that some ranges were hosting matches long before the PRS was a thing, and had their own rules and how they did things...and they don’t always want to change them

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm suddenly curious if the early days of IPSC were like the wild wild west of guns being pointed everywhere thats being described here.
And if so, was a catastrophic event to blame for the safety culture present these days? Maybe a bunch of lawyers and EMT's that shot competitively and put the fear of God into range owners/MD's?

Thinking out loud here, but with the USPSA rulebook being the gold standard of safety, so much so that most other action shooting sports automatically default to it when in doubt, why can't it just be copied/pasted into PRS with a few terminology modifications?

Not that it would necessarily translate to enforcement of rules. But a full season of pre match safety briefs followed by mass DQ's for any non-compliance might get people into the groove.

 

[chavezz556]

I experienced the most unsafe match I have ever been to last summer. There was no safety brief, no chamber flags required, not even required to have the bolt open on guns that were strewn every which way.

I was flagged by a person handling a rifle with a closed bolt, and when I told the MD my concerns (after giving the shooter a chamber flag) he said “we don’t enforce that here.” That shooter continued to handle his rifle with the bolt closed the remainder of the match.

There was a barricade stage on the 1000 yard line (shooting at a 300yd target) where I witnessed a shooter move from position to position with a closed bolt on a live round. I audibly yelled to him and the RO “bolt back! BOLT BACK WHEN MOVING!!!” After he finished the stage doing the same thing, we got in a verbal altercation that almost lead to blows where he told me I was a safety nazi and no one cared about that shit and I should just leave. Well if I hadn’t been out of state with two other people I would’ve left hours earlier. It’s a hobby to me and I don’t want to go home in a body bag nor do I want to witness it happen to someone else.

Oh, and the scissor lift stage that ran simultaneously was visible from the 1000 yard line when it was at its peak. So imagine the possible safety issue with clueless shooters moving on a prop with a live round and someone 500 yards downrange (to the side) 30 feet in the air.

I sent the MD and associates a detailed letter addressing my concerns, and I sincerely hope their response was not just lip service. I will never attend one of their matches again.

Who what when where? That is insane.

Does PRS have their RO's go thru RO training like NRA or IDPA ?

 

[christopher.dow]

@sobrbiker883 we're still that way. LOL. We got even stricter after the match that @acronut is talking about. We've changed one of our rules to follow the NRL's muzzle discipline rule - match DQ if your muzzle covers anyone including yourself. We spend 30 mins at each club match reviewing safety protocol since 40%-50% of our match attendees are new.
8<

I can personally attest that @LH_Gina is fcking serious about safety. Her brief at the AZLRPRS match this month was vivid and graphic.

 

[davere]

2: it will be abused all to shit. Guys will be claiming an equipment issue because they are doing badly on a stage

This is exactly the problem with allowing the competitor to stop themselves with no penalty. The fix is to make sure the RO is actually doing his job, and that the match has enough ROs to make it possible (and for local matches, that means people need to pitch in and help out). Hell, in terms of people pitching in at local matches, that's a cultural thing, too.

 

[davere]

This is totally different than an RO or other shooter calling a cease fire for something they see. In that case, if there was no actual safety issue, then either A) reshoot or B) you go back to your last position and given the remainder of the time to finish the stage.

You actually have the same problem arise here, too - just it'll be the shooter's buddy, not the shooter, calling for a cease fire. Shooter's buddy sees shooter struggling to close bolt, or clear a jam, and knows he's going to have a bad stage as a result. Calls cease fire, and then claims he thought there was a safety issue or that he heard a squib, or whatever. Then the RO has to pick apart whether this was legit, or a case of competitor interference or cheating. You'll also see it pop up as "gamesmanship" where a shooter - or more likely a shooter's buddy who's not in contention - will call cease fire on the guy in contention with the shooter just to fuck with his head. These kinds of things happened in the USPSA world from time to time, and drove changes to the ruleset for it to get to where it is today.

And that basically is this - the shooter is accountable for their ammo. The shooter can stop themselves at any time, and the stage is scored as it stands. The RO can stop the shooter at any time for a suspected squib or other unsafe condition. At that point, they can determine (with a cleaning rod) if there's a squib in the barrel. If so, the shooter is stopped and the stage is scored as it stands. If no squib (ie, just a quiet round, or whatever), the shooter gets a reshoot.

Past that, if there's a clearly unsafe condition brewing - like someone crossing over a berm, or walking downrange, or things like that - anyone can call stop at any time.

 

[davere]

I'm suddenly curious if the early days of IPSC were like the wild wild west of guns being pointed everywhere thats being described here.

I started shooting USPSA/IPSC in 1993, so not quite back in the wild wild west days, but far enough back that I heard all the glorious tales of how the rules came to be as they were. My understanding is that the rules were a lot closer to who the current PRS and NRL rulebooks are written - fairly common sense, and expectant that everyone is an adult who is concerned about gun safety.

After rashes of various things, like guys unholstering their guns to show their buddies their new thingamajig in random spots on the range, and guys gaming the safety rules to avoid match DQs for safety violations, etc, the ruleset evolved to something very close to what it is today in short order. When I started in 1993, the safety aspect of the rules was pretty much exactly the same as it is now, almost 26 years later.

I'll see if I can dig up a copy of the original rules - I know some folks well steeped in IPSC history.

And if so, was a catastrophic event to blame for the safety culture present these days? Maybe a bunch of lawyers and EMT's that shot competitively and put the fear of God into range owners/MD's?

Well, there's been some of that - but the things that I'm aware of were mostly freak occurrences. One was a ricochet that had to bounce three times to leave the range - it then caromed into an airgun range house and killed a teenager (the airgun house was down range and uphill from the pistol bays, and could be seen from the range floor above the berms, apparently). Those kinds of things haven't really driven gun handling rules changes, but did drive changes for range setup and match layouts.

Thinking out loud here, but with the USPSA rulebook being the gold standard of safety, so much so that most other action shooting sports automatically default to it when in doubt, why can't it just be copied/pasted into PRS with a few terminology modifications?

Not that it would necessarily translate to enforcement of rules. But a full season of pre match safety briefs followed by mass DQ's for any non-compliance might get people into the groove.

Well, there's a lot of culturing that needs to happen. For instance, range commands. In IPSC, the range commands really do need to be consistent, because - at least at an international level - the shooter may not speak English, and won't recognize an informal or non-standard range command. But yeah, grabbing a ruleset that's seasoned and complete like that, and taking the clarity from it is not a bad idea at all.

At the last match I shot - a local level match - I'm setting up on the last target of my last stage, knowing I'm under short time pressure. Close the bolt, and just about to fire, when I hear what sounds like "TIME!". I come off the gun and am reaching for the bolt to unload, and he yells "You still got a few seconds! Get it!", and I'm like "WTF?" Then he yells "TIME". Turns out, he originally yelled "FIVE!", like "you have five seconds left". That wouldn't happen at an IPSC match.

Further, at IPSC matches, they generally take attendance with the squad, and won't proceed with a stage briefing until the whole squad is there. Not so for PRS matches. At Lone Survivor last year, on the first day - when there were squads - there were at least two occurrences when I was shooting at the tail end of the order, only to find that the rest of the squad had moved on to the next stage, received the stage briefing, and were already shooting the stage. I didn't get a briefing on those stages, and had to just figure it out.

So, what I'm saying is - there's a lot of shit that has to change at all levels. I go back to what's been said above, safety is the responsibility of everyone, and shooters absolutely need to call out the BS. At the same time, it's going to take effort at the MD and RO level DQ'ing the ever living fuck out of some people for it to stick.

For a while, I would love to see it be the MD's pride to DQ as many people as he can from a few matches for sweeping people with muzzles - like bragging rights. Not a long term thing, but just to get the ball rolling. Shooters will start telling others "Hey, man, don't let an RO see you do that...", and then the shooter correcting another shooter actually has "weight" (as if it shouldn't now, but that's another story... back to me dick punching assholes on the range, I guess).