PTR rifle opinions

[M198gunner]

Been looking to pick up an HK 91 clone. I have been on HKpro and would love a clone built by Ghilli, Dakota or others but cannot spend that money. I will be using them to convert my 94 and build me an MP5 clone so no money for the 91. So I started considering the PTRs by JLD Enterprises. Found one from 2005 that will shoot the surplus ammo as I have heard the new ones do not like the surplus ammo.

What are members thoughts on these? If not one of these then what? Cannot spend the money on a real HK nor do I want to. Like the idea of the clone for a shooter.

 

[ORD]

The PTR-91 rifles are by far the finest clones still made and just one of the reasons for their longevity in a market otherwise plagued by miserable failures. Be wary of the 2005 model PTRs however as SOME were problematic with certain ammo because of problems with the flutes in the barrels not being cut to the proper depth/length. This will cause malfunctions when shooting certain types of surplused ammo, especially some of the nasty tar-sealed crap like South African ball or other heavily coat crap like TULA. The guns in question all have an AW prefix serial number (I can't recall the exact start/finish numbers, but they used to be listed on the PTR site) but I think (don't quote me on this) that they began around AW1500 or so. You should likely be able to find all the info in the world that you could ever want/need on the HKPro site though, but with quality ammo, I have never owned nor otherwise fired a PTR91 series rifle (in the GI series or otherwise) that wasn't as reliable as the day is long...PERIOD. If you plan to shoot garbage through the rifle...expect like results.

Just stay clear of the crap produced by companies like Century Arms Intl (CAI) and the like as they are just crap in every respect. The welds looks like they could have been done by a monkey, the fit/finish is piss poor, and they are generally some of the most problem-ridden rifles of the HK variety on the market today.

 

[M198gunner]

ORD,

Thanks, the rifle I have been looking at starts with an "A" only. Figured with the PTR if I wanted I could always have a builder do upgrades for me at a later time when I have the money again.

 

[smschulz]

IMO the PTR 91 is 90% of a real HK at 33% of the cost.

 

[texas_vet00]

Mine is happy with a number of different ammo types - zero issues to date. Not crazy about the "claw" for scope however...just looks goofy IMO...

 

[ORD]

ORD,

Thanks, the rifle I have been looking at starts with an "A" only. Figured with the PTR if I wanted I could always have a builder do upgrades for me at a later time when I have the money again.

Just double-check the chamber flutes to ensure that they are correct before you drop the money on the rifle. If it is a good price, the flutes can be redone for a reasonable price (generally, at least stateside, you can get the done for ~$150) or you can simply swap out the flawed barrel with any number of quality barrels from US suppliers to an OEM, HK CHF, properly fluted barrel...your dime so its your call how you proceed if the rifle happens to have a barrel in the serial range at issue. If it isn't an AW prefix then it should be GTG in terms of reliable functioning/extraction with a wide range of different ammo and should serve you very well for a 91 clone. Really all that is needed to make the PTR rifles truly excellent is a trigger job (Springfield...my personal preference...or Williams triggers). Aside from that one "functional" issue, its your call in terms of how you want to "upgrade" the rifle in terms of running irons or optics, what stock/handguard/etc., etc. Plenty of options to best fit your particular needs/wants, but the rifles themselves are quite good in my experience (no...not a true 91...but nearly everything a 91 would get you at 1/3 to 1/2 the pricetag)!!

 

[M198gunner]

Where should I look to get a good A3 stock?

 

[FALex]

great rifles, very "beefy," and fun as all hell to shoot. My buddy's chewed his brass up real good but if you're not concerned with loading for it, not an issue.

 

[ORD]

Where should I look to get a good A3 stock?

Unless you just want it for looks and don't care about its functionality...my friendly advice and the voice of experience is: DO NOT DO IT!!

The A3 collapsible stocks for the 91 series rifles are uncomfortable as hell to shoot for the most part (especially the rounded/curved buttplate models that are most common), downright painful to shoot in some instances especially with prolonged strings of fire, don't give a proper cheekweld for anything but iron sight use...the list of cons goes on. If you want one, my advice is to go with OEM rather than some of the cheaper, aftermarket knock-offs which are generally plagued with problems in my experience from poor fitment/finish to improper function.

Adam Webber at HKParts generally has a good selection of G3 A3 stocks available: HKParts | Heckler & Koch Genuine Parts - HKPARTS.NET

Also, check with Robert Johnson at RTG Parts as he usually has some as well and tends to have better prices: G3 Parts, HK91 Parts, HK G3 Parts, HK 91 Parts, HK-91 Parts, HK Parts, PTR91 Parts, V51 Parts, Cetme Parts, G3K Parts, HK21 Parts, Original German HK Parts, RTG Gun Parts

As with any upgrades done to these rifles, be sure you maintain 922(r) compliance if you swap out any US-made parts/components out for non-US ones (such as the US-made buttstock assembly your rifle will most likely have to an OEM German one). Not sure about the US-made parts count on the older PTR rifles...on the newer ones you'd likely be ok with a stock swap without having to add US parts, but I'm not sure about the '05 vintage rifles (and you never know what's been done to it/changed since it left the factory).

 

[bptactical]

Having owned both the real deal and 3 PTR's I feel I can say that they are a great rifle for the money. True some had some issues and I have had 2 customers bring theirs to me for headspace issues. It turned out they were later production rifles with the PTR manufactured trunnions which were defective. In both instances PTR made it right with no hassle.
With that being said if I were in the market I would search for a clean early production rifle outside of the known bad SN range. The earlier rifles had HK/FMP parts used in the builds where newer rifles are nearly all PTR.
Cheap magazines are an additional BIG bonus.

 

[M198gunner]

I have noticed the mags are extremely cheap. I will look for the older models. Hope I can make a deal on the one I found. Used to have a mint HK91 but always afraid to shoot it so I sold it to pick up a clone for a shooter. Why own a gun you do not want to shoot.

 

[BigRso]

IMO the PTR 91 is 90% of a real HK at 33% of the cost.

What he said, I would add mags are dirt cheap.
Easy to field strip, but if you at all want accuracy and consistent grouping remember this is a battle rifle and serves well. Expect 2-3moa at 100yards with hand loads (2-3 firing due brass ejection bending the hell out of them and flute mark impressions) which pissed me off so I sold mine. Considering the 1moa or better you can get with a AR platform imho why bother

 

[bustin]

What he said, I would add mags are dirt cheap.
Easy to field strip, but if you at all want accuracy and consistent grouping remember this is a battle rifle and serves well. Expect 2-3moa at 100yards with hand loads (2-3 firing due brass ejection bending the hell out of them and flute mark impressions) which pissed me off so I sold mine. Considering the 1moa or better you can get with a AR platform imho why bother

With iron sights? I welded rails on top and mounted red dots on my 91s and 93s around 2001. 1.5" at 100 yards is average with the German surplus. They are heavy and recoil bad but they will eat anything and run like no other 308. Mine are early versions and maybe more than 90% HK. If you are a SHTFer a poly drum full of HKs is happiness. Just wished there was a HK21 in the mix.

 

[BigRso]

With iron sights? I welded rails on top and mounted red dots on my 91s and 93s around 2001. 1.5" at 100 yards is average with the German surplus. They are heavy and recoil bad but they will eat anything and run like no other 308. Mine are early versions and maybe more than 90% HK. If you are a SHTFer a poly drum full of HKs is happiness. Just wished there was a HK21 in the mix.

I didn't have that luck with my ptr and I couldn't stand the way it destroyed brass.

 

[OldGuardShooter]

I bought one and traded it to get my EBR Scout back . That info you guys are talking about with the SN is for sure on HK forums i read it and my new one i got at the gun store LAST DEC was outside the bad numbers by like 500 or 600 if i remember right. I spent big money and bought a new collapsible stock for it and 50 like new mags and a X products drum . If you want to put the Bayonet on it you will need to replace the PTR flash hider as it is American sized you can order the correct HK sized on HKparts.com I was going to make this rifle my complete go to battle rifle set up. but decided to go back to the M1a EBR scout set up.

 

[blfuller]

Get one of the PTR's with the welded on picatinny rails. To avoid any warranty issues I would get one of the later ones that trunnions are fully warranteed. Some that were made by JLD are not under warranty any longer. Brass issues can be addressed by using an ejection port buffer.

 

[OldGuardShooter]

Get one of the PTR's with the welded on picatinny rails. To avoid any warranty issues I would get one of the later ones that trunnions are fully warranteed. Some that were made by JLD are not under warranty any longer. Brass issues can be addressed by using an ejection port buffer.

That is the one i had it was nice i just wanted the Ebr scout m1a a bit more. they are great firearms for the price though

 

[M198gunner]

The brass issue worries me as I want to reload, hate to ruin any good brass. Excuse my ignorance but what is an ejection port buffer and how hard to install?

 

[ORD]

Get one of the PTR's with the welded on picatinny rails. To avoid any warranty issues I would get one of the later ones that trunnions are fully warranteed. Some that were made by JLD are not under warranty any longer. Brass issues can be addressed by using an ejection port buffer.

Welded rail PTR-91 = NO PORT BUFFER! The welded-on rails are so long that they prohibit attachment of the port buffer to the rifle since the port buffer snaps/locks over top of the receiver fixing the buffer to the rearward-most portion of the ejection port. Furthermore, I have seen more than a handful of welded-rail HK clone rifles (PTR, JLD and others) that were not lined up true to the bore which poses some nasty issues of its own and frankly...just isn't worth the headache.

The brass issue worries me as I want to reload, hate to ruin any good brass. Excuse my ignorance but what is an ejection port buffer and how hard to install?

A port buffer will help dramatically with brass getting banged up upon ejection or from damage because its been thrown a blue country mile away from your shooting position, but they are still rough on brass and will dramatically reduce the number of loads you'll be able to achieve versus just about any other semi-auto .308 out there, especially AR-platform rifles. I can't tell you how many reloads you get as there are too many variables, but running "good brass" in HK/clone delayed roller lock firearms isn't a great idea. If you can source quality military match brass that tends to be a bit more robust than your average commercial brass, then you can extend that life somewhat, but its still gonna take its toll. Best advice I can give with reloading is to scrounge as much once-fired range brass as possible, do your full prep on it and when its at the end of its useful life...pitch it and don't worry about the money you have tied up because it won't have cost you much, if anything, to get it in the first place.

As for a "port buffer," there are a couple varying versions, but are a couple links to the device we're talking about:

HK91 Port Buffer and Carry Handle for HK 91 G3 PTR91 HK93 HK33 and CETME, RTG Gun Parts

CTREE Products LLC - Port Buffer

They line up with the flared, rear portion of the ejection port built into the rifle, then snap/lock into place. The first style linked to above is more or less meant to be permanent because they are hell on the finish when installing (if you get one, PM me and I'll give you a quick "how to" to get it installed right the first time with minimal to no damage to the finish), but getting them off is going to "leave a mark" if you know what I mean. The second style is a newer (last 6-7 years IIRC), US-made version that is supposed to be more user friendly in terms of installation and wear/tear on the rifle from installing/removing. I have only used the second version a handful of time on rifles belonging to others and not from my own installs, so I cannot speak to their claims of easier install/removal, but both versions work as effectively as the other without question. The MFI mount you are considering has a forward relief cut so that it can work with a port buffer installed.

 

[blfuller]

Welded rail PTR-91 = NO PORT BUFFER! The welded-on rails are so long that they prohibit attachment of the port buffer to the rifle since the port buffer snaps/locks over top of the receiver fixing the buffer to the rearward-most portion of the ejection port

Agreed. The other option is to have one of the better HK smiths, like Ghilli, install a custom length rail that would allow the use of the port buffer. Granted the brass gets beat up but I did not have any problem reloading it when I did not have a buffer installed. You just need to reshape the case mouth to allow the expander to enter the case mouth prior to resizing.

The other option is just to use the standard claw scope mount with some STANAG rings or the cantilevered with built in rings and use a scope of your choice.

 

[blfuller]

Another option for you, if you are set on a G3 type, is to find a Springfield Armory SAR3 (preban) or SAR8 (post ban). Do not confuse the Greek EBO manufactured G3 variant with the POS aluminum receiver final variant that Springfield armory put out. These were made by EBO who was a HK Licensee. The SAR8 had an 8 stamped over the 3 after importation.

Another one is the G3S clone made by FMP in Portugal and imported by PARS International. This one was also made on HK equipment by FMP, a HK licensee. FMP rifles marked XG3S were a post ban rifle. Typically the X was stamped on after importation.

As the aforementioned rifles were made by HK licensee you will find they are nearly equal in quality and tolerances of the HK91. The FMP rifles were typically a phosphate finish and the EBO rifles had a black paint over phosphate.

By the way I like your avatar.

There's an G3S on Gunbroker right now.
And a SAR8 on Gunbroker now too.

The SAR8 would probably benefit from Springfield Armory's warranty if needed

 

[M198gunner]

All,

Thanks for the info. So much to learn each time I look at picking up another clone.

blfuller, thanks for the links. What would be the top you would pay for the G3S? That is, what are they worth?

 

[HK MaNiaK]

I got myself the ptr msg91 last year and has worked like a dream shoots 1/2 -1 moa at 100 yards and achieved a 3.55 inch group at 600 yards but havent shot it that far since my tracking on my scope went to the dumps, i also reload for it too im at 3x fired for some of them already and show no signs of stress on the brass, the rifle does give it nasty looking ding but if its not cracked your good. I just run them through my full length resizing die and all the dings come out just a little dimple where the initial dent was but when you fire the reloaded round the dent goes away and basically forms a new one upon ejection. I personally think I can maybe do 5-6x fire but the brass does take some abuse

 

[blfuller]

All,

Blfuller, thanks for the links. What would be the top you would pay for the G3S? That is, what are they worth?

I replied to your PM.

 

[HK MaNiaK]

Welded rail PTR-91 = NO PORT BUFFER! The welded-on rails are so long that they prohibit attachment of the port buffer to the rifle since the port buffer snaps/locks over top of the receiver fixing the buffer to the rearward-most portion of the ejection port. Furthermore, I have seen more than a handful of welded-rail HK clone rifles (PTR, JLD and others) that were not lined up true to the bore which poses some nasty issues of its own and frankly...just isn't worth the headache.

My ptr has the welded rail on top but unknowingly purchased the buffer for it but realized with modification the buffer will work, I never attempted to modify it because my ptr barely put dents on the brass so I was lucky there, there are also other ways around it if you want the rail welded on top you can get this HK Shell Deflector for HK91 G3 HK93 PTR91 HK 91 RTG Gun Parts but it needs to be welded on, when I look at my ptr it kinda has a flap like that shelldeflector on the back of the ejection port so maybe thats why I dont get bad dents.

I have also herd about the rails not being aligned right too. I know PTR has had some problems in the past but went ahead and got one either way, found out they got rid of the 1 in 11 twist rate barrels for a 1in10 twist from green mountain I believe and made the flutes deeper. I havent had to much time with a scope on it but it always shot amazing I shoot iron sights with it all the time, to be honest im an AK iron sight guy and really hate the g3 iron sights but im able to ring a 19x12 inch plate at 400 yards all the time.

If you are curios of how my brass looks like I can post up before and after pics of my brass just for an example

 

[M198gunner]

THanks,

Would appreciate how they look. I have gotten great feedback and for the price might have to go with the PTR. They are just so much lower than other options. I know you get what you pay for but I have only gotten great feedback on them less the brass and rail issues.

 

[Gunga]

Thanks for sharing the information. I was wondering about the quality of PTR's also.

 

[USMC mustang]

I have a PTR-91, serial # AW12XX and it feeds surplus with no issues, to include South African surplus. I owned a HK-91 years ago that I foolishly sold and the PTR provided an affordable alternative to replacing the original. With handloads it's a pretty solid 1-1 1/2 MOA gun, with Radway Green it's a solid 2 MOA gun.

Another scope mounting option is the MFI low profile mount. I have one of these on mine and have been very happy with it.
Scope Mount HK | PTR Scope Mount - HKPARTS.NET
I usually shoot the gun with iron sights but I have a Leupold VXR Patrol 1.25x4 in a LT-104 mount that I mount occasionally, it's a nice set-up. The mount does not interfere with iron sights use if the scope is not mounted.

I echo the comments regarding the retractable stock. It's downright unpleasant to shoot. I bought one for my HK-91 years ago (they look so cool, I had to have one), installed it, shot it, got the hell beat out of the side of my face, took it off, and sold it within a period of 72 hours. I have the OEM style stock on mine now but I have had a Magpul PRS for it and that is another great option.

 

[HK MaNiaK]

THanks,

Would appreciate how they look. I have gotten great feedback and for the price might have to go with the PTR. They are just so much lower than other options. I know you get what you pay for but I have only gotten great feedback on them less the brass and rail issues.

Finally got it up sorry about the wait, you can see the dents on the side of the brass isnt to bad but usually all my brass necks get bent good, I use the redding type s match full length resizing die set.

 

[M198gunner]

THanks for the brass pics HK MaNiak, I am really getting the HK bug. Brass does not look that bad. Seems to clean up nicely.

Got my USC converted to a UMP by HDPS and purchased an MP5 clone pistol on SW receiver in 40cal built by Mike Turner. I am having him convert it to a rifle and upgrade the internals to HK.

Now looking to have my HK 94 converted to an MP5 and then try to pick up a clone in 9mm.

 

[MJ1]

7th reload

 

[M198gunner]

Issues with brass does not seem that bad. Is it hard to work out the dents?

On another note I picked up two MP5 A2 kits with 2 HK magazines each for $1238 each shipped. Thought that was a good deal.

Now to get them built up.

 

[jdonovan]

The JLD made PTR's are all good to go, except for a few. There was a problem in the first 100 or so guns where they used the wrong welding method and softened the trunions. I've not heard of a unfixed one in the wild in over 10 years... so I suspect the chance that you'll find an unfixed one is quite rare.

When JLD sold the company to the kids, they switched to a TC made barrel, and they spec'd tighter tolerances, and while it was more accurate, it would no longer reliably run quite a lot of the surplus out there. They have now switched back to the originial military looser spec and they will again run surplus. If you only run new made commercial ammo, that might be OK for you.

The Sar3, or sar8 from Springfield are also good guns and can be bought for a nice discount over the German made HK-91's. If you are willing to wait, and look, I've seen them as low as $1300 on gunbroker. Sometimes you'll find HK91's under $2k as well.

The cast aluminum receivers are JUNK. These guns are GLUED together as you can't weld the aluminum receiver to the steel trunion. All of these guns will self-disassemble in < 1000 rounds. If you are looking for a parts-kit, and can get one for < $500 then ok, else pass on these.

Mags are still cheap, but *sigh* I still remember the $0.99/each $80/100 days on new in wrap G3 mags. Glad I got a case when they were cheap.

G3's mangle the brass. And throw it way far away. 10m away isn't unreasonable for where you'll find the brass pile. About 10-30% of my cases I regard as non-reloadable. There are clip on port buffers, and weld on. The weld on will require a refinish of the gun. The clip on's don't work if you have a full length picatinny rail on the top of the receiver.