Purpose built Sniper Rifle vs Precision/Competition Rifle

[Tree]

So personally I think my opinion doesn’t matter so I’m going to give it anyways. J/K. Really have nothing to add as I couldn’t serve(although I tried). Interesting to read though. For what it’s worth I like the AI AT I shoot. It fits what I need for what I do.

 

[brianf]

Why would anyone, in their right mind, do that?!

Because most people are idiots and think they are always right.
Just a guess

 

[TacticalPlinker]

An open discussion on an effective tactical sniper rifle vs a competition rifle. Two different purposes yet both aspire to achieve precision and accuracy on target. While a PRS/Comp rifle needs to make it as easy as possible to make hits on a target it doesn't have to consider lethality while the sniper does. The weight of PRS/Comp rifles make long walks on the beach arduous so this is a design consideration for Tactical Sniper Rifles. It seems we are seeing a migration to a chassis style configuration over more traditional stocks with Sniper Rifles as well. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the differences and why they exist. Another topic of discussion, with a max target range of 1000 meters what is your go to Tactical Sniper Rifle and in what cartridge? Consider everything in that question including full battle loadout weight/volume including rifle.

I'm interested because it seems PRS started out as a way to mimic sniper actions and has migrated into it's own thing with rifles that would be less efficient/effective in a real world tactical/military situation. It makes sense because you only have to hit the target and not eliminate it and very heavy rifles with small caliber projectiles offering lower recoil make this game easier. In contrast, does it take away from the spirit of "Sniper"? I suppose there are thing like Mammoth that try to encompass that spirit but we still see many 6mm rifles on the line.

Check out the gear in this. Hope it helps

 

[Anonymoose]

The mission always defines the equipment.

A PRS larper will shoot his matches every weekend, go home, and continue his life.

A sniper may have varying tasks over the course of a week, 12 month, or 18 month deployment, or on a rotating alert cycle every day, week, and month of the year for years -- often wearing at least his armor, Dome of Obedience (tm) and his load-bearing set (whatever Uncle or his own mission requirements call for). Some will be static or on foot for a few hours or days -- some with their kit or set in a vehicle, some with the Big Green Wart (tm) on his back.

A long PRS match may be a four-day weekend in zip-off leg trousers and Tiva sandals, sleeping in hotels the night before, or perhaps every night.

A sniper's alert schedule may be six weeks, prepared to go anywhere, or be tasked with supporting a varied set of missions. A Leg Army sniper may have to haul around his rifle and equipment suite every farking day (often through the night), perhaps in-and-out of vehicles or over extended distances and terrain for days. Dismounted ops with all his other ass-pain gear will dictate how much he wants it to weigh, balanced by whether or not it holds zero, and desired effects the second he acquires, identifies, tracks, and engages the target.

No one wants to haul around unnecessary length, weight, or bulk. I've never seen a sniper hauling half a dozen different bags and squeeze-pillows on a strap of tubular nylon hanging off their web gear.

Better is better, can't argue with a Wonder-6.5 or some other magnum. But his gear has also got to be durable and consistent, and standard enough to teach new (young / partially-trained and inexperienced) people who constantly cycle into units and slots.

An Army Acquisition Corps (the guys who buy stuff for the Army) friend asked me why and how Special Force's purchasing cycle is so much shorter and faster. I explained it to him, and added (because it doesn't seem to tick off our Command Sergeants Major so much) "It's got to fold up small, fold out big, weigh nothing, do its job better than what we have, and be in an outrageous color no one else in the military will tolerate."

PRS and other disciplines add value from the old saw, "If it's stupid but works it isn't stupid."

Very few guys demand something heavier, longer, or bulkier without gaining a distinct advantage.

Oh, and PRSers don't have people shooting back.

Thanks for the contribution. Much appreciated. Logical and sensible.

 

[Anonymoose]

Point of fact, the M24 could be serviced by the sniper just shy of messing with the small adjustment screws on the trigger and rebarreling it. That's why it came with all the tools and spare parts, it wasn't for the armorer, it was so the sniper could disassemble it, replace parts, and reassemble it in the field. Hell the TM walks you through replacing the firing pin.

Absolutely, I'm familiar and would have happily serviced myself if required. In my situation it wasn't required so I didn't volunteer for it.

 

[Anonymoose]

Hi,

Let get to the real difference without beating around the bush, lol....

Lets take a full tilt PRS built rifle with foundation stock, origin receiver, bartlen barrel, all the works...fully equipped ready to shoot.
Lets take a full tilt "Mil" rifle...AI for this scenario....fully equipped ready to shoot.

Same shooter shoot both rifles for groups AND for timed impacts from 100-1000 yards. See which has better results.

Now take both rifles and throw them over a 20 foot wall onto the ground on other side.

Same shooter walk around wall and repeat the shooting scenarios...See which has better results.

Someone do that and revert back to this thread, lolol

Sincerely,
Theis

My only question is why is the 20 foot wall the standard here? Is this some mil-spec requirement I'm not aware of?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Short answer is Yes; and that is pretty much just the start.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[JakeM]

My only question is why is the 20 foot wall the standard here? Is this some mil-spec requirement I'm not aware of?

The APA PARAGON destruction test #9 - YouTube

 

[Montana1000]

tagging in

 

[Anonymoose]

Hi,

Short answer is Yes; and that is pretty much just the start.

Sincerely,
Theis

Fair enough. I'd be equally or more concerned with proper operation after dirt, dust, mud, water, snow, temperature, etc exposure.

 

[Bakwa]

Sinister's comment was pretty spot on for most "line company" snipers.

That said, it isn't the whole story. The sniper world seems to be toeing a new point of evolution. SFSC instructors are observing PRS matches more often than one would think. That isn't to say that a PRS rig would do everything a sniper needs, but the fairly myopic tactical world is watching and learning a few useful things from the comp world starting with SOCOM affiliated groups. Who knows how long it will take to filter down into the big military though.

Oh, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express for those wondering what qualifies me....

 

[Anonymoose]

Hi,

Short answer is Yes; and that is pretty much just the start.

Sincerely,
Theis

Fair enough. I'd be equally or more concerned with proper operation after dirt, dust, mud, water, snow, temperature, etc exposure.

Sinister's comment was pretty spot on for most "line company" snipers.

That said, it isn't the whole story. The sniper world seems to be toeing a new point of evolution. SFSC instructors are observing PRS matches more often than one would think. That isn't to say that a PRS rig would do everything a sniper needs, but the fairly myopic tactical world is watching and learning a few useful things from the comp world starting with SOCOM affiliated groups. Who knows how long it will take to filter down into the big military though.

Oh, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express for those wondering what qualifies me....

Interesting. Can you share some material examples?

 

[dhunt]

I dont know about that "designed to wound" principle.

Our military has too many experiences where "we" won the battle but just about every guy surviving left the line wounded. Wounded guys will kill you.

In a desperate fight there are no stretcher bearers nor is a rifleman leaving the line....there are lots of examples of this in our history.

We should not come to expect our dominance in the mideast will be the norm......and even there terrain, conditions and our own use of force policy worked to the enemies advantage allowing them to for a time overcome that dominance.

Ammo and rifles for the Infantry are designed to kill....typically with a 4 MOA acceptable standard. No one in their right mind would accept a rifle designed to be less than lethal.

Im enjoying the conversation. I dont have experience in combat but I once talked to a veteran.

View attachment 7578106

Great photo!

 

[SortOfClear]

I'd like to add ease of cleaning as a point. Some of the comp rigs look like they may be terribly hard to clean if low crawled with. Plenty of holes for mud, ice, etc to accumulate, then rust, then cause looseness in the system. M14 EBR is a great example, know people who like shooting them, some shoot sub MOA, but never met anyone who thought cleaning the chassis was a bright spot in their day.

 

[epaultmbt]

The biggest difference is the ability to support accessories. A work gun should, with the right add ons be able to do 25-50% better at night.

Any real tactical competition will have more than half the courses of fire at night.

 

[kthomas]

Would the military pick this as a sidearm?

 

[Bakwa]

Interesting. Can you share some material examples?

One that made me chuckle was the use of something as simple as a shooting pillow.
Obviously not an accessory for every stroll, but different shooting aids like different sized bags and pillows might start pooping up here and there pretty soon.
The sniper world hasn't innovated that much in a while outside of moving from stocks, to more ergonomic stocks, to chasis.
Having field kestrels is even a fairly new thing.
Like I said, some of the snipers that are on the cutting edge [by gov standards] are observing comps like they've never before.

 

[6.5SH]

One that made me chuckle was the use of something as simple as a shooting pillow.
Obviously not an accessory for every stroll, but different shooting aids like different sized bags and pillows might start pooping up here and there pretty soon.
The sniper world hasn't innovated that much in a while outside of moving from stocks, to more ergonomic stocks, to chasis.
Having field kestrels is even a fairly new thing.
Like I said, some of the snipers that are on the cutting edge [by gov standards] are observing comps like they've never before.

Even participating in some cases.

 

[sinister]

Would the military pick this as a sidearm?

20-30 years ago the Aimpoint on a pistol and the C-More were not ready for prime time on a military pistol. Gen 1 STI magazines didn't work without constant monkeying.

New mini-dots are a whole lot more robust.

 

[6.5SH]

20-30 years ago the Aimpoint on a pistol and the C-More were not ready for prime time on a military pistol. Gen 1 STI magazines didn't work without constant monkeying.

New mini-dots are a whole lot more robust.

Multi-talented guy, didn't know he was an artist as well.

 

[kthomas]

20-30 years ago the Aimpoint on a pistol and the C-More were not ready for prime time on a military pistol. Gen 1 STI magazines didn't work without constant monkeying.

New mini-dots are a whole lot more robust.

Well color me surprised...

 

[TonyTheTiger]

If you have not served in military sniper billet; do yourself a favor and do not attempt to counter anything sinister just typed, lol.

I won't attempt an outright counter of anything he said, but I am curious about the term "larper" used to describe the PRS shooter.
My understanding of Live Action Role Playing is someone playing dress up and pretending to be a super ninja badass of some sort.
There seems to be a misconception by the mil people that the competition people are in some way trying to emulate them. The last 6 years of following the action shooting sports tells me nothing could be further from the truth. The vast majority of competitors are fully aware they are playing a game, for the sake of having fun or personal achievement, with no delusions of grandeur or stacking bodies and no interest in how what they're doing relates to whatever the military is doing.
So not really fitting into the definition of larping.

 

[ma smith]

LARP...ie, you don't have to worry about alot of things becuase you go home every night and the game ends in a few hours...

 

[Dthomas3523]

I won't attempt an outright counter of anything he said, but I am curious about the term "larper" used to describe the PRS shooter.
My understanding of Live Action Role Playing is someone playing dress up and pretending to be a super ninja badass of some sort.
There seems to be a misconception by the mil people that the competition people are in some way trying to emulate them. The last 6 years of following the action shooting sports tells me nothing could be further from the truth. The vast majority of competitors are fully aware they are playing a game, for the sake of having fun or personal achievement, with no delusions of grandeur or stacking bodies and no interest in how what they're doing relates to whatever the military is doing.
So not really fitting into the definition of larping.

I can absolutely say that many prs shooters are the first to talk shit about mil/le sniper/marksmen.

So, that’s likely where some of the disdain comes from.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

LARP...ie, you don't have to worry about alot of things becuase you go home every night and the game ends in a few hours...

I guess if that what LARP means now. I mostly imagine people dressing up as wizards for the dungeons and dragons convention..

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I can absolutely say that many prs shooters are the first to talk shit about mil/le sniper/marksmen.

So, that’s likely where some of the disdain comes from.

That may be true, I don't really care because I'm not a PRS shooter, but we all know shit talking goes both ways and if people on either side didn't have such big egos it wouldn't really bother anyone. All my point was is that competition shooters are not typically trying to live action role play anything that mil peeps are doing.

 

[ma smith]

I mostly imagine people dressing up as wizards for the dungeons and dragons convention..

This is pretty much the insult in a nutshell.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

This is pretty much the insult in a nutshell.

Yeah I guess. Just don't see the need for everyone to make jabs at anyone engaged in a different activity. I doubt a rally driver sees an F1 car hit the gravel trap and assumes he's trying to rally larp. The F1 driver doesn't look at a highway full of commuters and assume they are all wannabes. They might all be driving activities but they have very different goals.

 

[earthtrekker1775]

Hi,

Short answer is Yes; and that is pretty much just the start.

Sincerely,
Theis

Can I take my ZCO off before we chuck my rifle over the wall? I am really fond of that scope.

 

[Anonymoose]

Yeah I guess. Just don't see the need for everyone to make jabs at anyone engaged in a different activity. I doubt a rally driver sees an F1 car hit the gravel trap and assumes he's trying to rally larp. The F1 driver doesn't look at a highway full of commuters and assume they are all wannabes. They might all be driving activities but they have very different goals.

I believe the LARP comment was originally directed at me for asking the question in the first place. As in I must LARP since I am no longer in the military and I gave the impression that I wanted a military sniper rifle. I don't put on camo and walk around in the woods acting out military style scenarios. I do want to compare the rifles used in sniper games like PRS etc. with real world use tactical sniper rifles. I think one is kidding oneself if one won't admit that one of the underlying reasons shooting sports are cool is because one is proving that one can theoretically eliminate a human/animal target under those circumstances. It stokes the primal ego in a way crocheting or golf cannot.

It didn't bother me. I understand the egos and emotions that exist in this hobby. Internet forums amplify these traits and turn otherwise great people into Johnny Know-it-all bloviating blowhards. Hang out in martial arts forums for a while for some real fun.

 

[pmclaine]

I won't attempt an outright counter of anything he said, but I am curious about the term "larper" used to describe the PRS shooter.
My understanding of Live Action Role Playing is someone playing dress up and pretending to be a super ninja badass of some sort.
There seems to be a misconception by the mil people that the competition people are in some way trying to emulate them. The last 6 years of following the action shooting sports tells me nothing could be further from the truth. The vast majority of competitors are fully aware they are playing a game, for the sake of having fun or personal achievement, with no delusions of grandeur or stacking bodies and no interest in how what they're doing relates to whatever the military is doing.
So not really fitting into the definition of larping.

I used the term LARPER not toward PRS shooters but more toward posters asking fantasy questions about gear. Think the epic thread about the guy that posted a picture in his full on field gear in his yard a year or so ago.

Perhaps that is unfair and I apologize for that......that dude in his yard may be relying on that gear at some point.

As others noted the line between mil and civilian is being blurred......Marines are being encouraged to shoot comps on weekends, even being allowed to access issue weapons to do so with armory support.

Thing is civilian shooters get to push the envelope and use untested gear, mil may not have that luxury and has to default to what is known to work, what they have support for, what the guy can get running on his own if it breaks away from any other level of help.

So the comp shooter gets to dress up and if it doesn't work he takes it back to the truck and replaces it for something that does.

I don't think comp shooters are unthinking in their gear choices either, they want to win. So they can actually prove technology that is good for all firearms use.

 

[pmclaine]

I believe the LARP comment was originally directed at me for asking the question in the first place. As in I must LARP since I am no longer in the military and I gave the impression that I wanted a military sniper rifle. I don't put on camo and walk around in the woods acting out military style scenarios. I do want to compare the rifles used in sniper games like PRS etc. with real world use tactical sniper rifles. I think one is kidding oneself if one won't admit that one of the underlying reasons shooting sports are cool is because one is proving that one can theoretically eliminate a human/animal target under those circumstances. It stokes the primal ego in a way crocheting or golf cannot.

It didn't bother me. I understand the egos and emotions that exist in this hobby. Internet forums amplify these traits and turn otherwise great people into Johnny Know-it-all bloviating blowhards. Hang out in martial arts forums for a while for some real fun.

WARNING - LONG WINDED AND BORING. ONLY DIRECTED TOWARD OP.


A lot of my guns are built as tributes to military rifles.....I LARP.

They all are limited by the technology of their time. I dont have the money or the historical interest in cloning the latest and greatest......still they are capable, better than me.

You have spent some money on rifles and Im picking up the vibe you are not achieving the goals you have in mind.....you want more and you want it to be built like a brick shit house.

When I left the military I was soured on guns, not due to some trauma on the battlefield, only the trauma of realizing that guns and some prick in the armory with a Q-tip was a constant threat to my making my plane flight for a 96.

I took a job that I felt required I train a bit....that lead me to buying a Garand which lead me to the idea I want an accurate gun and it had to be built like a brick shit house - My Garand but updated.

I put about $7K into an LMT MWS - a fantastic rifle complimented with a S&B PMII - a brick shithouse with optics. A very capable rifle and their is a reason the M110 has a military role. Its kind of a heavy MFer though. The LMT suffers a weight penalty with the heavy barrel collar but its probably on par with Knights. My skills make it a consistent 2 MOA rifle - under most circumstances that is great capability coming right out of the box and slapping on a scope.....but if you are here you probably want more. I wanted more.

My next rifle was an M40A1 built at PWS - there is your sniper rifle, another $7K spent. After waiting three years I got my USO Unertl clone and found out I have a rifle that will stack bullets but clover leafs were not what it was designed for. The intent was to give a Marine a 3/4 MOA from the test bed gun with a scope that can be quickly set to engage targets of opportunity with the BDC settings. Very capable, an improvement in accuracy over the LMT but still limiting.

Next was an M40. I knew it was going to be a step back but its probably one of my favorite rifles to shoot. Light, handy....a riflemans rifle. Ive taken it out to 1000 yards. The limiting factor is the 3-9X Leupold M40 clone scope. I have the advantage of a mil dot reticle that guys in VN did not. By zeroing with a 2 mil hold under and than changing from 9X to 4.5X I get enough hold for 1000. Its as accurate as the A1 just not with as many shots....with the thinner barrel. Still like the A1 kind of a musket in length. The scope is the big limitation at 4.5X targets at 1000 are small. That metal butt plate is an ass kicker too. I was almost in tears after 100 rounds.

The rifle in the video was built by Raven Rifles. I took all my desirable aspects of the M40 series and put them in one gun. Its built like a brick shithouse, its handy, quick handling, perhaps not "light" but its weight helps alot with its shootability. The Premier single turn scope is fantastic, unlike my A1 parallax is no concern dialing is always dead nuts despite ammo lot differences or conditions. My favorite gun. somewhat similar to TacOps offerings with its Krieger barrel of shorter length. It satisfies all my rifle desires - overbuilt, historical, accurate.

Am I done with buying rifles....almost.

Just got a Model 70 back that Im building to be a Carlos Hathcock tribute (I am a LARPER). I have a 5 digit R700 receiver at LRI being built into a wood stock M40 with detachable mag capability, truck axle barrel at 23 inches, and it will sport a S&B PMII.

You should build the gun you want not what PRS is using or the mil is using.

Take proven components that either appeal to your historical thoughts on the M24/your military service or that PRS winners use. Build that shit into your own personal favorite rifle using a quality builder. Raven Rifles is a student of USMC rifles but I would trust him to build me anything to include a toaster. Choose a quality barrel I love Krieger and so does TAC OPs. My new rifle will have a LH GT Bartlein with a fast ending twist. If it sucks its because I am being weird with my spec - it wont be Bartleins fault - they build great barrels....my .223 M40 with a Bartlein crushes it.

The rifle you "want" to shoot is the one you will shoot best.

....or just buy a TAC OPS


.....and take classes......classes are great and they will help you.

 

[308pirate]

Well color me surprised...

Seriously?

Did you actually think that ridiculous looking open competition pistol aren't the proving ground for CONCEPTS that later get refined into practical applications and become the state of the art in defensive handguns?

 

[pmclaine]

Having worked with various departments and getting to know their SWAT snipers, I would say they would pass on the 20lb 6mm and stick with the Tac-Ops Tango 51's they have already. They just work and there is no real reason to change anything.

As for police snipers, public perception is a real concern as well, and I would say something like the Tango-51 vs a full blown PRS rig in a fancy chassis also likely draws less negative attention from the public eye as well.

Police snipers have liability issues that would make you sweat blood.

This is why TAC OPs are so pure bred.

Its literally the one shot situation and I doubt anyone is going to be authorized to take it in over 100 yards.

If you have to be explaining on record I bet its nice to be able to say "We tried to be so competent with this shit we used a builder that goes to the extreme of clocking his screws".

Its extreme, legit .25 MOA rifles that are intended for 50 to 100 yard single shots.

I can see where in military conditions there would be alot to love about TAC OPs but there also could be issues in the long run.

 

[pmclaine]

Why would anyone, in their right mind, do that?!

Really, that advice is no fun.

 

[pmclaine]

I can absolutely say that many prs shooters are the first to talk shit about mil/le sniper/marksmen.

So, that’s likely where some of the disdain comes from.

People like to give cops shit about their shooting also.

Granted most cops are not shooters so its warranted.

Its not the shooting that matters though...its that they are "there".

You can be the greatest shooter in the world but if unwilling "to be there" it doesnt matter.

The person "there" may miss the shot or when competing against PRS guys wont come in top ten but the thing is when they are "there" they are doing their job not pissing their pants....or perhaps they are pissing their pants but thats only a reaction to being "there".

Rather than give them shit go do their job or lobby the powers that be to provide more training.

They dont have to be the best PRS or range shooter....they have to be better than the other guy "there" on the other side.

...and I too wish Divine Provenance would allow them to shoot better if training isnt doing it.

 

[pmclaine]

Seriously?

Did you actually think that ridiculous looking open competition pistol aren't the proving ground for CONCEPTS that later get refined into practical applications and become the state of the art in defensive handguns?

But do they have to end up buying all that shit from Sig once proven?

Its kind of like reaching a sound conclusion than going back to step one and saying "Its just as good as what we tested with..."

 

[Anonymoose]

....or just buy a TAC OPS


.....and take classes......classes are great and they will help you.

Thanks for the reply and the background, much appreciated. Classes are definitely on my agenda.

I'm actually quite happy with the results I'm getting. I recently took the Bergara build out to 900yds (the longest that range offered) and hit 9/10 shots. A 3/4 MOA group with the shots I hit lol. Very pleased.

My aim was more of a discussion on how these 25+ pound small caliber Comp guns contrast a gun that is used to eliminate humanoid targets at similar ranges as well as withstand harsh use and be of a weight that is manageable. I understand that Comp guns have evolved to be better for their application as have mil sniper rifles albeit at a much slower pace.

I've come to realize that I prefer a practical tactical bolt gun vs a drift car with a big wing. No offense to Comp guns, they're awesome and achieve amazing results. I'm a pragmatist and Gucci just isn't my thing.

I have decided that I won't purchase another rifle unless it's an AI or a TacOps. I realize they're quite different but I like them both for their unique traits.

Perhaps a better exercise would be to explore how Comp guns can positively influence tactical sniper rifles. Sounds like that might be happening already.

 

[Anonymoose]

One that made me chuckle was the use of something as simple as a shooting pillow.
Obviously not an accessory for every stroll, but different shooting aids like different sized bags and pillows might start pooping up here and there pretty soon.
The sniper world hasn't innovated that much in a while outside of moving from stocks, to more ergonomic stocks, to chasis.
Having field kestrels is even a fairly new thing.
Like I said, some of the snipers that are on the cutting edge [by gov standards] are observing comps like they've never before.

Different sized bags yes. Shooting pillow is a stretch unless the sniper has a vehicle at his disposal. Too much volume. I could see using the dry bag in your ruck as a shooting pillow though. Filled with air or just grabbing it full of the spare clothes that were packed in it .

 

[308pirate]

But do they have to end up buying all that shit from Sig once proven?

Ground already covered.

 

[Bakwa]

Different sized bags yes. Shooting pillow is a stretch unless the sniper has a vehicle at his disposal. Too much volume. I could see using the dry bag in your ruck as a shooting pillow though. Filled with air or just grabbing it full of the spare clothes that were packed in it .

Like I said, not for every stroll. Mission dictates the gear and the gear dictates the movement... or something like that.
Anyway, you can take or leave what I'm telling you.
I'm sure there are instructors and recent students of advanced sniper courses reading this. They can chime in if they want.

 

[pmclaine]

Perhaps a better exercise would be to explore how Comp guns can positively influence tactical sniper rifles. Sounds like that might be happening already.

It is.

Both want what works.

Than once they find out what works they need to tailor it to their particular demands.

The argument starts with not understanding the differences caused by the demands divergence.

 

[brianf]

Seriously?

Did you actually think that ridiculous looking open competition pistol aren't the proving ground for CONCEPTS that later get refined into practical applications and become the state of the art in defensive handguns?

of course it does... racing is R&D for the brand which sponsors help pay for

 

[Anonymoose]

Like I said, not for every stroll. Mission dictates the gear and the gear dictates the movement... or something like that.
Anyway, you can take or leave what I'm telling you.
I'm sure there are instructors and recent students of advanced sniper courses reading this. They can chime in if they want.

METT-T, yessir. If I were back in that situation I would absolutely look to the comps for ideas. I wouldn't look for ways to carry more gear but I would look for ways to use the gear I was already carrying in new ways. The dry bag for example. I would have loved to have a lightweight Gamechanger or Fortune Cookie back then. So versatile. I did use the ruck and other stuff in unique ways in building stable shooting positions. As recon we weren't primarily focused on direct engagements so I carried fairly light. No tripods or extraneous gear.

 

[JakeM]

It is.

Both want what works.

Than once they find out what works they need to tailor it to their particular demands.

The argument starts with not understanding the differences caused by the demands divergence.

Exactly. It would do huge amounts of good for the hunting world, if they would use this concept, and adapt it to their uses. Right now they just dismiss everyone else, and wonder why they are having issues.

 

[308pirate]

It would do huge amounts of good for the hunting world, if they would use this concept, and adapt it to their uses. Right now they just dismiss everyone else, and wonder why they are having issues.

?

 

[sinister]

Exactly. It would do huge amounts of good for the hunting world, if they would use this concept, and adapt it to their uses. Right now they just dismiss everyone else, and wonder why they are having issues.

Jim Carmichel was Outdoor Life's gun editor years ago. He had a depth of knowledge with long guns that was staggering -- rimfire, benchrest, highpower, long range, dangerous game, hand loading, you name it. His technical savvy with single-shots, falling blocks, bolts, slides, levers, and auto-loaders was amazing.

He retired and successive gun editors are almost the definition of Fudd. If it's not a factory rifle shooting inside 200-300 yards they almost consider you a fool. Perhaps they do,

 

[skl1]

OP, yes, once you have a game or sport, folks are going to "game" the rules. Look at practical pistol shooting as created by Jeff Cooper, the rise of gaming in IPSC, and the counter rise of IDPA to be more true to the original intent. But as mentioned, the gaming improves real world equipment and tactics. Sport Judo guys do really well vs Ju Jutsu guys in my experience.

I hate that it drives such division in the wider shooting sports world. Different divisions should "fix" it. The anti-gunners keep making progress while all of us are trying to show how much purer we are than 'all those other guys'. This holier than thou stuff is crazy; tactical 2A supporters call huntering 2A supporters "Fudds", bow hunters turn their noses up at gun hunters, Recurve shooters think the compound shooters are sissy's.

Man, what a shame that it is driving divisions over here on the good guys' side.

 

[pmclaine]

I cant access just the video right now but I posted it in this link other day...

Our Future

www.snipershide.com

At first the old dude strikes me as Fudd but he makes some really good points about expectations of accuracy and intended use.

Much fun is being taken away from the shooting community because of "expectations".

When I was a kid I really enjoyed shooting, it was just for fun, knocking over the can was the goal and it was pretty achievable.

Now its not knocking over the can, you have to get the bullet inside the "B" in Budweiser.

Its good to have greater goals but they have to be achievable and you might even want to consider what the nature of your personal use is....is the goal way beyond your needs?

Everyone should try to be better but do you really need to engage in the arms race to the point it takes away the enjoyment of the sport? Do you need the EMP proof Kestrel if EMP is something you wont likely encounter and you can buy 5 of the regular model, throwing away broken ones as you go, for the cost of one EMP proof Kestrel.

 

[pmclaine]

OP, yes, once you have a game or sport, folks are going to "game" the rules. Look at practical pistol shooting as created by Jeff Cooper, the rise of gaming in IPSC, and the counter rise of IDPA to be more true to the original intent. But as mentioned, the gaming improves real world equipment and tactics. Sport Judo guys do really well vs Ju Jutsu guys in my experience.

I hate that it drives such division in the wider shooting sports world. Different divisions should "fix" it. The anti-gunners keep making progress while all of us are trying to show how much purer we are than 'all those other guys'. This holier than thou stuff is crazy; tactical 2A supporters call huntering 2A supporters "Fudds", bow hunters turn their noses up at gun hunters, Recurve shooters think the compound shooters are sissy's.

Man, what a shame that it is driving divisions over here on the good guys' side.

Thats getting better.

I have a co worker that is a canary in the coal mine.

He is a very dedicated hunter.

10 years ago when I was stressing about what Obama would do he was of the understanding "Oh they will never do that. Our guns are safe."

"Our guns" were his hunting guns.

Over the past 3-4 years he has become very engaged and is now right on board with securing rights.

I hope other see similar.