I have not shot any more from the 300 Norma, still snowing as of today, but hope to try some soon.
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PVA 212 Seneca
- Thread starter b6graham
- Start date
Started shooting some 212’s in 28” 1-8 bartlein. 300nm, 89.0 n570, 3095fps. Accuracy looks good so far. Just getting a few rds down the barrel then I will play with seating depth possibly but not sure it’s worth it as this current load looks good at distance.
3.775 COAL. All the longer I can go on an axsr mag. Pretty long jump but doesn’t seem to bother accuracy
Gotcha - the DTA mags are a bit longer. And agreed, they seem to be really jump tolerant.
I’m about to give these another go in my 300wm. Got my dies sorted out and I think I was having a primer seating issue when I tried them the first time
Well today I did a little testing with the 212’s and h1000. Went with the seating depth that I had thought were the best last go around. First 3 groups had me ready to call it a day. Then 4th was not half bad. Five shot confirmation group was bout 3/4” maybe a hair smaller. Didn’t remember to take a pic of that one
This barrel seams to like 3050 FPS
This barrel seams to like 3050 FPS
Good to know! Have been looking for RL-26 for 2.5 years now, with zero luck…. Closest double base powder i could find was 4000 MR, which gave me about 2750 fps using Norma brass, but was hoping for a bit more, and it was too temp sensitive. The Norma brass is thick and heavy, and has less case capacity, and is a little “soft in the head”, ejector marks show up early, well before heavy bolt lift.
Yep, i also got best results with higher neck tension with the 212 Seneca. Calipers say about 3 thou +- 0.5, but the micrometer is likely more accurate and reports a 3.6 thou difference between a sized and loaded round. Bullet is clearly resizing the neck. Seating force is around 42 lbs, which is medium (Neolube nr 2 on bullet and neck, but no HBN coating).
The high neck tension might be a bullet specific or a powder specific thing, not sure. I am running H4831 in the mid 60’s in a 300 WSM getting 2940 fps, and the load is well away from pressure signs. It is a 28” MPA/Spencer barrel with a twist rate of 7.0. Groups are pretty good, usually below 0.35”, with an occasional errand shot that opens up the group to 0.6”. Probably just shooter form issues, recoil is quite a bit more than the 6.5CM i am used to.
Amazingly high BC and half the wind drift at 1000 yards compared to typical commercial 308 ammo. Closer to 1/3 of the wind drift at 1600 yards…. Now we just need to figure out if this superb bullet can successfully transition to subsonic - and for its BC to remain consistent.
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1208 was all but covered from the wheat so I held .2 low off the top and sent it.
1580 had 3 shots from todays 8mph wind and 3 shots from the other day when the wind was variable 18-20, sometimes dipping lower.
212 seneca
300nm
28” 1-8
3100fps
1580 had 3 shots from todays 8mph wind and 3 shots from the other day when the wind was variable 18-20, sometimes dipping lower.
212 seneca
300nm
28” 1-8
3100fps
Attachments
That is a good result. That 1580 yard target has a waterline of maybe 6 or 7”, except for one high shot, that is very impressive for the distance. And shot over two days, likely with at least some change in ambient conditions?
Do you perhaps know what your SD and/or ES was for load?
Is your impression also that the listed BC seems to be accurate? We could only test out to 1000 yards, and our first shot was close. Also your horizontal (presumably mostly due to wind drift) seems to be very well contained. Just ran your data through Strelok Pro, and if i did it right, your 270 deg/18 mph wind would have caused a 180” wind drift at 1580. Your target looks like there is about 16” of horizontal. And wind that varied 2 mph (around an verage of say 19 mph) is just under 10%, or 18”. Seems to line up nearly perfectly.
I guess physics don’t lie: High BC leads to lower flight time and less wind effect. Wind drift for this phenomenal bullet from the Norma Mag is close to 1/3 that of a typical 168 grain Sierra bullet in a 308 load, at 1580 yards. Not a fair comparison i know, but it says something about how far we have come since the 1950’s.
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I’m currently using virgin lapua brass that I’m running a -.003 mandrel through then loading. My ES on average has been about 24-28 and SD 11-13. Not the greatest but I’m guessing once I load up the 1x brass those numbers should tighten up quite a bit. I know they did on my buddy’s 300nm going from virgin to 1x brass.
BC on PVA’s website has been spot on for me. I’ll be using these bullets at the NF ELR challenge so I should be able to run them by AB’s Doppler
BC on PVA’s website has been spot on for me. I’ll be using these bullets at the NF ELR challenge so I should be able to run them by AB’s Doppler
“I’ll be using these bullets at the NF ELR challenge so I should be able to run them by AB’s Doppler.”
That would be great data to post, and help to confirm the BC variability. Given that it is a CNC machined bullet, it should be below 1% while supersonic. Presume ABs radar can track them past the transonic zone. I guess how well they transition will ultimately dominate the BC variability nr.
Will you be shooting this bullet into the subsonic range during the match?
That would be great data to post, and help to confirm the BC variability. Given that it is a CNC machined bullet, it should be below 1% while supersonic. Presume ABs radar can track them past the transonic zone. I guess how well they transition will ultimately dominate the BC variability nr.
Will you be shooting this bullet into the subsonic range during the match?
How did they do at the nightforce challenge and the AB's dopplerI’m currently using virgin lapua brass that I’m running a -.003 mandrel through then loading. My ES on average has been about 24-28 and SD 11-13. Not the greatest but I’m guessing once I load up the 1x brass those numbers should tighten up quite a bit. I know they did on my buddy’s 300nm going from virgin to 1x brass.
BC on PVA’s website has been spot on for me. I’ll be using these bullets at the NF ELR challenge so I should be able to run them by AB’s Doppler
So we didn’t get a chance to run them by the Doppler, we got hung up Friday morning and left a lot later than we planned. We showed up about 10 minutes before check in and sighting range closed Friday evening
My buddy and I shot in the team division and ended up taking 2nd. We both shot AI’s with 1-8 twist barrels, 300nm. Both shot the 212’s with same velocity. About .2 grain difference on powder charge to get 3095-3100fps. Same bullet jump.
Bullets seemed to hold true on advertised BC. Only ran into two issues with the bullets. We started out loading 8 in the mag and after the first couple stages we notice some unusual high/low misses when we got to the last target on these stages. After a longer range wolf stage (.2 mil tall) my buddy looked at the 2 rounds left in his mag and he noticed both bullet tips were deformed and one bullet was pushed into the case a good .050-.080.
After that we started loading only 2 in the mag and single feeding the rest. No issues after that. Overall we were extremely pleased with the bullets!!
I've heard of that happening with a lot of bullets from recoil which sucks. What neck tension are you running?
Was the spotting causing any issues with the solids for you?
Have you shot them past transonic any issues with 1-8 twist?
.002 tension. Tried .003 but .002 seemed to grouped better.
That is one thing I forgot to mention on spotting. I’ve tried a couple other solids and the PVA have the best splash on and off target of any solid I’ve tried. Hits on steel usually turned into 15 or so pieces that were easy to see and misses into the dirt were very similar to jacketed. If we had a “no call” on a miss guys shooting jacketed bullets had the same issue with the same target.
We haven’t got them past transonic yet. @6500 da they are still 1300fps at 2500yds
“We haven’t got them past transonic yet. @6500 da they are still 1300fps at 2500yds”
Amazing performance! Especially for a 30 cal rifle.
For those that have an interest in R&D: You could download say 20-30 of the 212 gn Senecas rounds, and shoot them 300 fps slower (e. g. by picking the “wrong” powder that gives the slowest speed in the load manual, and shooting it at a minimum charge) and see how they group at say 1,800 or 2,000 yards. That would force them to go sub-sonic. An 8 twist should still be adequate to stabilize them, theoretically.
I have a 7 twist 28” barrel and will try this one day soon.
Of course, a bad ES and a variable wind speed will confound the results, but it should still be some indication: Do they make it that far without tumbling…
Has anyone tried N568 with with the Flat Line or Seneca’s yet in 300 Norma?
I was planning to, but N568 has been unobtanium for the most part. Still, I tried N565 with the 212s and while I got pretty good numbers, N570 still beat it from my testing. So that kind of poured cold water on the idea of running N568.
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If I get time I’ll try n568 and h1000 but for now I’ve been happy with n570 all but the gravel like consistentancy of the kernels!!!
So…. Should i go buy a carpet knife and then split the N570 kernels, and measure to the thou with my calipers to mark where to cut each kernel, in order to get it to within 0.02 grains…. ? [Never mind, just kidding!]. The BR folks not so long ago used to split kernels. What a pain that must be.
I guess there are some pros and a few cons to every single powder on the market. But the comment about “rice sized kernels” made me smile!
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Tuning the 212 gn Seneca load for the 300 WSM:
OK, so i gave up on 4000 MR as it was too temp sensitive, and tried H4831 long grain, H4831SC short grain, and IMR 4350:
H4831 long grain worked, but required a fairly compressed load, not really enough case capacity in the 300 WSM case, and got to 2960 fps without major pressure problems, but did produce “clickers” at the top end (ADG brass). But want to keep my limited supplies of this powder for the 225 ELDM in the 30” 8 twist barrel.
H4831SC (short grain) ran into pressure at 2923 fps, also a compressed load, and had a 1.0 wide flat spot at almost exactly the same speed as IMR4350 and H4831 long grain. Probably not a coincidence.
Next tried IMR 4350, which worked well enough to get me to 2935 fps from a 7 twist 28” MPA barrel, without pressure, and with casecapacity to spare. SD was a respectable 5.5 fps on a hot Texas summer’s day that started at 84 and ended at 95 deg F. [Even though IMR 4350 is not officially a temp stabilized powder, it does quite well in this regard, in my experience.] But clickers appeared at 2955 fps so took 2940 fps as the max.
Found a flat spot between 2930 and 2940 fps that was 1.0 grain wide. So loaded to the bottom end of that flat spot (2930), and tested seating depth from 20 thou to 60 thou in steps of 3 thou, using up way too many components! Found two candidates that produced groups below 0.5”, one at a 45 thou jump, and the second at 55 thou. The very short jumps (20-35 thou) all gave 2 shot “groups” between 0.9 and 2.3”, kinda ugly. Also, it looks like very narrow seating depth ranges where the bullet/powder combo groups well. Not sure that would make for a reliable load. [Might need to try 5-20 thou range some day when i have new bullets in hand.]
But surprisingly, i found that very long jump (135 thou and 145 thou) both gave 0.3” groups, with bullet holes touching. Same group size as 4000MR. This looks more promising, will see if it repeats. I am hopeful.
Disclaimer: It is difficult to determine exactly where the bullet’s front pressure/alignment ring (not at full diameter yet) touched the lands, easy to push that through into the lands, so my jump numbers might be way off. [COAL is perhaps more reliable than boat-tail-to-ogive for this bullet.]
OK, so i gave up on 4000 MR as it was too temp sensitive, and tried H4831 long grain, H4831SC short grain, and IMR 4350:
H4831 long grain worked, but required a fairly compressed load, not really enough case capacity in the 300 WSM case, and got to 2960 fps without major pressure problems, but did produce “clickers” at the top end (ADG brass). But want to keep my limited supplies of this powder for the 225 ELDM in the 30” 8 twist barrel.
H4831SC (short grain) ran into pressure at 2923 fps, also a compressed load, and had a 1.0 wide flat spot at almost exactly the same speed as IMR4350 and H4831 long grain. Probably not a coincidence.
Next tried IMR 4350, which worked well enough to get me to 2935 fps from a 7 twist 28” MPA barrel, without pressure, and with casecapacity to spare. SD was a respectable 5.5 fps on a hot Texas summer’s day that started at 84 and ended at 95 deg F. [Even though IMR 4350 is not officially a temp stabilized powder, it does quite well in this regard, in my experience.] But clickers appeared at 2955 fps so took 2940 fps as the max.
Found a flat spot between 2930 and 2940 fps that was 1.0 grain wide. So loaded to the bottom end of that flat spot (2930), and tested seating depth from 20 thou to 60 thou in steps of 3 thou, using up way too many components! Found two candidates that produced groups below 0.5”, one at a 45 thou jump, and the second at 55 thou. The very short jumps (20-35 thou) all gave 2 shot “groups” between 0.9 and 2.3”, kinda ugly. Also, it looks like very narrow seating depth ranges where the bullet/powder combo groups well. Not sure that would make for a reliable load. [Might need to try 5-20 thou range some day when i have new bullets in hand.]
But surprisingly, i found that very long jump (135 thou and 145 thou) both gave 0.3” groups, with bullet holes touching. Same group size as 4000MR. This looks more promising, will see if it repeats. I am hopeful.
Disclaimer: It is difficult to determine exactly where the bullet’s front pressure/alignment ring (not at full diameter yet) touched the lands, easy to push that through into the lands, so my jump numbers might be way off. [COAL is perhaps more reliable than boat-tail-to-ogive for this bullet.]
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Short jump: 20 thou to 60 thou:
Four seating depths that gave a 2 shot “group” below 0.7” (not great), and two below 0.5” (OK).
But very narrow, would have liked to see the neighboring groups also fairly tight.
Four seating depths that gave a 2 shot “group” below 0.7” (not great), and two below 0.5” (OK).
But very narrow, would have liked to see the neighboring groups also fairly tight.
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Long jump (65 to 150 thou): Three workable bullet jumps with group size below 0.5”. Best group was 0.31”, with bullet holes touching.
Looks like the rifle prefers a very long jump, and then a wide range of jumps work out fine…. Should be less finicky.
Will need to order another batch of bullets to confirm this load holds together under different ambient conditions…. Then it is time to try it at a mile.
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I've got a whole bunch to test, but still waiting on the barrel from PVA.
Fair enough! Barrel wait times are getting very lengthy these days…. I waited 9 months for a 7.0 twist 30 cal barrel from MPA, because they had to order a 7 twist button and that took 8 months. They had a 30” 8 twist on the rack and that was immediately available. Bought them both, one 7 twist for coper monos and the 30” 8 twist barrel for lead core heavy projectiles in the 220-250 gn range, and both shot very well.
What twist rate and barrel length did you go with in the end?
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1:7 I ordered it about a year ago from PVA. Has taken long enough that I ordered another 1:7 twist from another place. With my luck, they'll both show up next year.
I’m starting to conclude that i need to order a new barrel every year for every caliber that i shoot on a regular basis, whether needed or not, and just start hoarding barrels…
Heck maybe i can sell my over stock barrel blanks on GunBroker.com for 3x the usual price…. Some fool apparently paid $650 for 8 lbs of Varget on a certain auction site. Now the speculators all think that is the new price!! We live in strange times.
Call up Woody at MPA and ask him for a lead time… he might surprise you.
Heck maybe i can sell my over stock barrel blanks on GunBroker.com for 3x the usual price…. Some fool apparently paid $650 for 8 lbs of Varget on a certain auction site. Now the speculators all think that is the new price!! We live in strange times.
Call up Woody at MPA and ask him for a lead time… he might surprise you.
I ordered from PVA primarily because I figured they're the SMEs on how best to make a barrel shoot their 241s.
I’m about to test some 212s in a 1:7 24” 300 wsm. The 241s shot amazing when it was warm but I couldn’t get enough speed where I am in the winter to keep them stable.
Probably going to try some RL 26 and see if I can get around 2850-2900fps.
Probably going to try some RL 26 and see if I can get around 2850-2900fps.
I've shot .300 PRC Hornady 225 ELD-Ms and 230 A-Tips from 30" 1:9 twist barrel out to 1,730 yards with satisfactory (to me) results. My wife and I shoot for fun only.
New barrel 30" 1:8 twist. I am currently working load development for 250 A-Tips.
Once I am satisfied with the 250 A-Tip load I will turn my attention to planning load development for Seneca 212s to shoot 1,760 yards plus. So, with .300 PRC, 30" 1:8 twist, Lapua cases: Any suggestions for starting point for the Senecas?
New barrel 30" 1:8 twist. I am currently working load development for 250 A-Tips.
Once I am satisfied with the 250 A-Tip load I will turn my attention to planning load development for Seneca 212s to shoot 1,760 yards plus. So, with .300 PRC, 30" 1:8 twist, Lapua cases: Any suggestions for starting point for the Senecas?
I'm shooting 300NM, but I can tell you from my experience that the 212s are really jump tolerant. If I try to kiss the lands, the bullet hardly get seated into the neck, so I'm jump 0.1" and it doesn't mind one bit.
212s are a great bullet in this cartridge, though I'm increasingly shooting the 250 A-Tips for ELR until my long delayed (almost 18 months) 1:7 barrel arrives from PVA. That's when I think the 241s will dominate. In the meantime I still have lots of 212s to shoot. Here's my load:
212 Seneca
Lapua Brass
GM215M
89gr N570
3.910" COAL (still fits in SRS mags)
3031fps out of 28" 1:8 barrel
Something to note about load development. These bullets in my barrel really performed well once I started using tighter neck tension (0.003-0.004) but YMMV.
212 Seneca
Lapua Brass
GM215M
89gr N570
3.910" COAL (still fits in SRS mags)
3031fps out of 28" 1:8 barrel
Something to note about load development. These bullets in my barrel really performed well once I started using tighter neck tension (0.003-0.004) but YMMV.
Ive played with the 241s and they are an amazing bullet… they will be awesome in your 300 NM…. I just can’t push them fast enough.
It’s good to know they are jump tolerant, I’ll give them a whirl and see how it goes.
The barrel I asked PVA to make for me specifically for this bullet is a 26" 1:7, so I don't expect the best velocities. Since it's taking an exorbitant amount of time waiting to be chambered, I have a 34" 1:7 coming from a different smith that should really make those bullets fly.
@Schw15 they're cheaper, easier to get, and carry the distance nicely. 38gr of added mass equates to quite a bit more momentum, even though the BC is a bit less. I'm guessing the 241 Senecas will supplant the 250 A-Tips eventually.
If you can get the 250s up to a decent speed with a long barrel, they're probably the best non-solid ELR bullet (in my opinion). Performance was very similar and I would give the 250s a bit of an edge beyond 2000m over the 212 Seneca. All bets are off with the 241s though.
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