That's what I do just shoot long range with buddies. I'd love to shoot some comps but crazy times covid ect. I think these bullets sure give a great advantage instead of going to the bigger 338 375 ect. Thank you for all the info
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PVA 212 Seneca
- Thread starter b6graham
- Start date
I was running a straight no tapper 30” on my vanguard action. Was a true 1/4” gun for most of that barrels life. 1.035”x30”
As for blowing up jacketed bullets. My new barrel is a 28” 1:8 300wm. Did break in with 185gr Berger’s. No blow ups
As for blowing up jacketed bullets. My new barrel is a 28” 1:8 300wm. Did break in with 185gr Berger’s. No blow ups
Bumping
Wondering if any of the barrels being waited on showed up.
My 1:8 28” is doing well with the sbd2’s but I’m thinking about trying the 212’s or 198’s.
Wondering if any of the barrels being waited on showed up.
My 1:8 28” is doing well with the sbd2’s but I’m thinking about trying the 212’s or 198’s.
I’m still waiting on a 26” 1:7 for the .300NM from PVA so I can test the 241s. Would have preferred something longer but it’s what was available.
Since October I’ve been shooting the 212s out of the standard 28” 1:8 barrel with great results. I get them to 3075 fps with 89gr of N570 and logging drops from 833 to 2054 yards the published BC seems accurate and I’m still kind of amazed how consistent I’ve been able to get this load with minimal effort: all touching at 100 yards with single digit ES.
In comparison, I’m also testing 250 A-Tips but am struggling to get the same consistency as the 212gr Seneca. It’s still early with this load, but with the A-Tips the load dev process was a bit more traditional and took longer to get something that grouped nicely with low ES. But once I took them to distance they really started opening up past 1250 yards, so might go back to the drawing board with them.
Since October I’ve been shooting the 212s out of the standard 28” 1:8 barrel with great results. I get them to 3075 fps with 89gr of N570 and logging drops from 833 to 2054 yards the published BC seems accurate and I’m still kind of amazed how consistent I’ve been able to get this load with minimal effort: all touching at 100 yards with single digit ES.
In comparison, I’m also testing 250 A-Tips but am struggling to get the same consistency as the 212gr Seneca. It’s still early with this load, but with the A-Tips the load dev process was a bit more traditional and took longer to get something that grouped nicely with low ES. But once I took them to distance they really started opening up past 1250 yards, so might go back to the drawing board with them.
My 300wm (28” 1:8)is pushing the 205gr sbd2’s at 2930 using h1000 and lapua brass.
Thinking if I can get 3k from the 198’s I’d be happier idk.
Not sure if I can get the 212’s fast enough to get the stability I’m after especially with winter
Thinking if I can get 3k from the 198’s I’d be happier idk.
Not sure if I can get the 212’s fast enough to get the stability I’m after especially with winter
The mass difference between the 198 and 212s is negligible and I think their primary purpose is to fit in mags, so if you’ve already got the 198s working I’d just stick with them.
Haven’t got any senecas yet. Just deciding what to order since I’m getting low on sbd2’s 205gr
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I’ve been messing with those in a 300nm same powder and charge…haven’t got them to group that tight in close.
Can you share
What chamber ,sammi or custom
How far off or jamming them
Etc
A few pics will give me some hope as well lol
Thanks
Standard chamber - nothing custom.
COAL is 3.91"
I have a normal throat (~0.250" freebore), and couldn't seat the bullets out far enough to even touch the lands. Basically the profile of the bullet just prevents it, so a long throat would be even worse I would imagine. So I'm jumping about 0.1" which seems nuts to me.
The important thing I've found with this combo is that I needed a tight neck tension. I'm using a pretty tight bushing to size the neck, then expanding it with a 0.3045" mandrel. The first round of load dev I used a common default neck tension, but groups/consistency weren't great. It also seemed like the bullets seated a bit too easily for my comfort, so I re-ran the same round of charges, but with the tighter neck and got dramatically better results.
COAL is 3.91"
I have a normal throat (~0.250" freebore), and couldn't seat the bullets out far enough to even touch the lands. Basically the profile of the bullet just prevents it, so a long throat would be even worse I would imagine. So I'm jumping about 0.1" which seems nuts to me.
The important thing I've found with this combo is that I needed a tight neck tension. I'm using a pretty tight bushing to size the neck, then expanding it with a 0.3045" mandrel. The first round of load dev I used a common default neck tension, but groups/consistency weren't great. It also seemed like the bullets seated a bit too easily for my comfort, so I re-ran the same round of charges, but with the tighter neck and got dramatically better results.
Yea
Standard chamber - nothing custom.
COAL is 3.91"
I have a normal throat (~0.250" freebore), and couldn't seat the bullets out far enough to even touch the lands. Basically the profile of the bullet just prevents it, so a long throat would be even worse I would imagine. So I'm jumping about 0.1" which seems nuts to me.
View attachment 7764145
The important thing I've found with this combo is that I needed a tight neck tension. I'm using a pretty tight bushing to size the neck, then expanding it with a 0.3045" mandrel. The first round of load dev I used a common default neck tension, but groups/consistency weren't great. It also seemed like the bullets seated a bit too easily for my comfort, so I re-ran the same round of charges, but with the tighter neck and got dramatically better results.
View attachment 7764146
The Norma magnums freebore(300 & 338) isn’t optimal for modern solids.
The solids experiments years ago had a lot more body and a shorter front section similar in shape to a SMK
Second from right is a 285 solid seated 10 thou off in a standard 338NM
Not much left for the neck to grip onto.
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I’m pretty sure that’s what it is.
Really small diameter with driving bands.
A buddy was involved in a few solids tests when he was still active military.
None really panned out but some interesting history.
Would be interesting to try those now as things are a bit different since then.
On second thought, the rear of that solid reminds me of the bullets Lutz Moeller was making in Germany about 10+ years ago?
I just went digging through my stuff and found the batch of Zenith test bullets I had leftover:
245gr .338 cal and 413gr .408. I still can't remember where the hell I got these but it must have been between 2008-2010
I just went digging through my stuff and found the batch of Zenith test bullets I had leftover:
245gr .338 cal and 413gr .408. I still can't remember where the hell I got these but it must have been between 2008-2010
Two barrels showed up last week for the 300 WSM ‘low budget project’: A 28” 7.0 twist for the 198-241 gn monos, and a 30” 8.0 twist for heavy lead core bullets like the 220 Berger and 230 and 250 Atips. Both button rifled hand lapped Spencer/MPA barrels. Borescope showed a very nice finish on the inside.
Just finished fireforming the brass and breaking in the barrel with minimum loads using 180 SMKs, Norma brass and old milsurp powder. Almost no blue on the patches, so near zero copper fouling. Carbon fouling only.
Norma brass is dimensionally excellent (weight and volume range, neck thickness (between 15 and 16 thou), flash holes and primer pockets all look perfect), but case heads are fairly soft, quick to show bolt swipe. Looks like the Norma brass is softer than you would like, and rather pricey at $2 a piece. Hope to get 5-8 reloads. [Lapua sadly refuses to make 300 WSM. ADG announced that they will make 300 WSM brass early next year. Trial production runs are allegedly in progress.]
Initial accuracy at 100 was superb with both the 180 SMK and 178 ELDM at very low speed (2600 fps - minimum loads). Groups around 0.3” to 0.5” using a random minimum load.
I expect to be 250 - 300 fps slower than a 300 Norma Magnum, and 150 or so slower than a 300 Winmag, which is not ideal - but far more budget friendly than building a new rifle. Hoping for 2,750 fps with the 241 Seneca.
Will know more in a week or so. [Have not tried the 8 twist barrel.]
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First three rounds through the barrel all went into one tiny round hole, i guess this barrel has potential.
Will do some pressure testing later today using PowerPro 4000 MR. After that will try H4831SC, H4350 and Superformance. Cannot find N570 (or N560) anywhere. Same for RL-33, Retumbo, 7828, etc.
Has anybody tried 4000MR with any luck in a any 30 cal magnum? Nosler posted load data for a 180 gn and a 210 gn load in a 300 WSM.
Pretty excited about my new Christmas present!
Will do some pressure testing later today using PowerPro 4000 MR. After that will try H4831SC, H4350 and Superformance. Cannot find N570 (or N560) anywhere. Same for RL-33, Retumbo, 7828, etc.
Has anybody tried 4000MR with any luck in a any 30 cal magnum? Nosler posted load data for a 180 gn and a 210 gn load in a 300 WSM.
Pretty excited about my new Christmas present!
I bought some of these for conversation starters in my reloading room which I think is about all they were good for.
I like these already. 198’s. 212’s will be here latter this week
Will do. Going to be about 5°F in the morning so should be a good test for stability. 1:8
Definitely tends to be a bit cooler on you side of the state in the winter.
I lived in Colorado Springs for a bit in 2002. Wasn’t too bad
Going to be -10 Friday
Bullet on far right is 210 gr. I can get it to 3090fps. Middle is 205gr. Shoot those at 2960fps. Left is 198gr. Hopefully be around 3100fps
Ya it was dry and hot. I was building the tank training facility on fort Carson.
Past 2k. Think I’ll have enough dial for around 2500 if I can get 3050. If not I’ll shim my rail again
Pressure test is done. Looks like my velocity node will be 3130ish or 3180. Cold this morning so I may go with the 3130 node to be safe. Coal is 3.957 right now
Is that a WM your shooting? Do you mind sharing barrel length and load you used. I’m curious how this compares to the load data over on Warner’s site. I know it’s a different bullet but was wondering how it compared to the PVAs. I have some of the PVAs I haven’t got started with yet. Thanks.
Yes 300wm 28” 1:8
Lapua brass
Cci 250’s
H1000 79.5gr
Coal 3.957 .022” jump
This is with the 198’s
Had very slight bolt lift at 81gr and stopped right there. No crunch on seat but pretty close to compression at 81gr
All these where loaded at 65°F and walked out 50ft to the bench and shot w/ms v3 on
Bandit320,
the 198gr from Warner and from PVA are VERY close to the same bullet. The profile / form factor is exactly the same. The two differ on cooper alloy used and the manufacturing process. I honestly like the Warner a bit better, but its very close.
My experience has been the 198grs don't like to go thru the sonic barrier and they tend to do unpredictable things when they do. This was my experience, starting them at 2800fps ish from a 8 twist 308win on a long action. Above mach 1, they are absolute beasts.
the 198gr from Warner and from PVA are VERY close to the same bullet. The profile / form factor is exactly the same. The two differ on cooper alloy used and the manufacturing process. I honestly like the Warner a bit better, but its very close.
My experience has been the 198grs don't like to go thru the sonic barrier and they tend to do unpredictable things when they do. This was my experience, starting them at 2800fps ish from a 8 twist 308win on a long action. Above mach 1, they are absolute beasts.
Sorry for long delay in reporting: Had a bolt problem to resolve that gave me scary but ultimately false pressure signs.
241 Seneca bullet is dead stable out of the 7 twist Spencer/MPA barrel: Perfectly round 0.3” holes at 200. Not a single oblong shaped hole. Have not tried them in the 8 twist but expect that to be a failure. SF is at 1.52 in the 7 twist and Strelok predicts 1.17 in an 8 twist.
Got to 2778 fps in the 28” barrel with 4000MR driving the 241 Seneca, but the web diameter on the overpriced Nosler brass opened up too much. Still holds a primer, but far too easy to seat a new primer. Will probably back off 1.0 grain. Should leave me around 2730 or so. I can live with that.
Strelok predicts supersonic to 2150 yards with a 2730 fps bullet, BUT that is assuming the published 0.555 G7 BC holds at this lower speed, which it obviously will not. I stubbornly holds out hope for 2000 yards.
Got one 0.3” accidental group at 200 during load development, for a set of 3 pressure test rounds (58, 60, and 61 grains). Probably just luck and might never repeat.
Have not shot the 241 Seneca at distance yet. Hope to confirm the drop and BC in January.
241 Seneca bullet is dead stable out of the 7 twist Spencer/MPA barrel: Perfectly round 0.3” holes at 200. Not a single oblong shaped hole. Have not tried them in the 8 twist but expect that to be a failure. SF is at 1.52 in the 7 twist and Strelok predicts 1.17 in an 8 twist.
Got to 2778 fps in the 28” barrel with 4000MR driving the 241 Seneca, but the web diameter on the overpriced Nosler brass opened up too much. Still holds a primer, but far too easy to seat a new primer. Will probably back off 1.0 grain. Should leave me around 2730 or so. I can live with that.
Strelok predicts supersonic to 2150 yards with a 2730 fps bullet, BUT that is assuming the published 0.555 G7 BC holds at this lower speed, which it obviously will not. I stubbornly holds out hope for 2000 yards.
Got one 0.3” accidental group at 200 during load development, for a set of 3 pressure test rounds (58, 60, and 61 grains). Probably just luck and might never repeat.
Have not shot the 241 Seneca at distance yet. Hope to confirm the drop and BC in January.
I realize one amazing three shot group is meaningless. Will see if that happy accident repeats - or not. Would be very happy with 0.5” groups at 100. Wind was from 7 o’clock and varied between 9-12 mph.
That next shot peeking through at the edge of the incompetently cropped photo is the 63 grain round. Total vertical spread from 2400 to 2780 fps was close to 4”.
I do struggle with noticeable bipod hop from a bench, even though the rifle weighs 24 lbs with the weight kit installed and the Accu-tac bipod attached. The hop might be contributing to my vertical. Will try sand bags under the bypod feet. Recoil is quote moderate, like a hunting weight 308 rifle shooting 150’s. I do find that i have moved 4-5 MOA off target when the recoil impulse ends. Not ideal so will have to work on my form - or switch to prone only. Stiff neck does not help.
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You really should shoot a fairly mild load (50-55kish) in that nosler brass before you step on it.
It hardens the base base a bit and makes pockets less apt to open up early.
Good advice.
Yep - did that for the 100 rounds of Norma brass, shot IMR4831 at one grain above book minimum using cheap 180/178 grain bullets.
Are you saying i should aim for 2-3 grains below max as a fireforming load, rather than way down at near starting loads?
But yes: Got in a hurry and skipped the fireforming step for the more pricey Nosler brass, and already regretting for my impatience. At least three cases are showing somewhat loose primer pockets. Might only get another 2-3 reloads from the worst three or four, but the rest are still fine.
Repeated the test at 200 with this load range (58-61 gn) in 0.5 grain increments, using a Caldwell rest and a front bag rider installed, and i did NOT get a good result: Formed two groups about 2.5” apart (vertically), for an overall group size of 1.2 MOA x 1.2 MOA. Each cluster is about half that size, but shots landed randomly in either group. That is not going to work. I guess “if it looks too good to be true, it probably is”….
Will try the tuner, and them on to other powders.
At $1.30 per bullet, and probably another 30 cents in brass life, 40 cents in barrel life… inflated powder prices, and extortionist Gunbroker prices for primers, i think i ended up at close to $2.50 per round fired.
Oh well, could be far worse. Try owning a salt water fishing boat!
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I like mid range loads for fire forming. For my 300wm I used 185’s and ram shot hunter just so I could just meter them out real fast. Don’t use the powder for anything else lol
I’d say if your loosing pocket integrity you should pull .5-1 grains more out.
I found that for the weight solids make more pressure than cup/core and you have to factor that into your load decision.
Do you know your usable case capacity?
300WSM?
Some nosler is like Norma brass and really easy to smoke primer pockets
Picture of rifle?
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Doing a little comparing. The Berger 210gr vld would have to be going 3800fps to match this 198gr load in windage at 1 mile with my current conditions
212’s showed up today. Just touching coal is 4.055”. Sure like this extra capacity these allow. Bt junction is just above neck shoulder doughnut area. Like this chamber was made for these Seneca’s
A lot of solids fit standard freebore chambers/cases quite well unlike modern cup/core heavies which in kinda neat.
I think PVA recommends .090-.150 which is quite common on a lot of older popular cartridges.
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