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PX Bullshit, Everyone is selling for themselves
- Thread starter Lowlight
- Start date
I would like to see it stay but if it has to go can you at least create a safe place section for us to go to?
There is already a safe space. It’s called “The Bear Pit”. It’s a nurturing environment where feelings are explored.
Takes less time to remove the bad Apple's from the tree. A tree always needs a good pruning every so often to keep it healthy.
This is very true and it creates a set of duties and obligations that are a huge PITA when it comes to keeping tabs on all of us jackasses transactions.
I’m with 1J04...need be a member for a year to sell stuff, business or not. Forget about post count, likes, etc, all those can be artificially inflated.
72 hr bump rule...bust it, mods delete the add.
Screw around, account deleted, wait another year.
ZY
72 hr bump rule...bust it, mods delete the add.
Screw around, account deleted, wait another year.
ZY
I know you want to automate as much as possible but the PX is a bit different. I was a mod at Ar15.com in their EE and, boy, what a challenge. Perhaps charging a nominal fee to post and limiting sales to X amount per calendar year would help. Mods have to nip bumping once per 24 hours in the bud, because people will take advantage of it.
Perhaps adding another Mod or two, just in the PX.
Perhaps adding another Mod or two, just in the PX.
I would think that making a yearly fee for a "site sponsor" would gain you access to the PX. If you don't pay yearly to support the site you don't get access to buy/sell. 25 bucks a year or something. That would generate a lot of revenue yearly for the site and weed out some of the nonsense. Could couple that with quality posts? Just throwing out ideas.
There's definitely some good ideas here, but some of them just aren't feasible when you take into account the software the forum is running on. To implement some of these ideas, you're talking about custom scripting and that takes $$$.
I think Frank and Tucker are on the right track by digging into the options currently available to them in the forum software and making some minor tweaks.
One more option I think could help: add more manpower. If you add another mod, you could have them just moderate the classifieds (and maybe new member approval). That would cut down on the workload for Frank and Tucker so they can focus on other things. I'm sure we have long standing members who have proven themselves to be dedicated to this site and of a good moral character, who are already spending a lot of time on the site who would help out. Just a thought.
I think Frank and Tucker are on the right track by digging into the options currently available to them in the forum software and making some minor tweaks.
One more option I think could help: add more manpower. If you add another mod, you could have them just moderate the classifieds (and maybe new member approval). That would cut down on the workload for Frank and Tucker so they can focus on other things. I'm sure we have long standing members who have proven themselves to be dedicated to this site and of a good moral character, who are already spending a lot of time on the site who would help out. Just a thought.
I agree with @jwknutson17
$25 per year gets you PX access plus require the 100 posts. Membership will include a shirt, sticker, with that year on it?
I'd say do a lifetime membership option as well.
$25 per year gets you PX access plus require the 100 posts. Membership will include a shirt, sticker, with that year on it?
I'd say do a lifetime membership option as well.
One thing that a lot of people are overlooking is a lot of new members are also new to long range/precision shooting. They come here not only to learn, but to get good deals on equipment. I can see restrictions on new members selling stuff, but let's not turn away the new guys from purchasing.
I agree with many who have said that a time limit, and number of posts requirement is needed to post WTS ads. Anything more than that just creates more work for Lowlight, and the mods, and makes things complicated.
As far as those running a business, let them in for free for a set period of time, like 6-months. Once they're established. They need to pay to continue selling products after that 6-month free period.
Just my 2¢ worth.
I agree with many who have said that a time limit, and number of posts requirement is needed to post WTS ads. Anything more than that just creates more work for Lowlight, and the mods, and makes things complicated.
As far as those running a business, let them in for free for a set period of time, like 6-months. Once they're established. They need to pay to continue selling products after that 6-month free period.
Just my 2¢ worth.
i can really relate to this issue. if there is one thing that pisses me off, is ffl guys flying under the radar and taking advantage of situations like this. armslist used to be phenominal in my area....until a local dealer flooded the sight with his bullshit and absolutely clogged it with his overpriced shit....all under the guise of NOT being a dealer.
the px has been a wonderful resource for me; allowing me to pick up some optics that i wouldnt be able to afford new.....raising two boys on my own hasnt been cheap. so i truely do appreciate access to it. but if folks are abusing it, do what you have to do.
it’s a crying shame sometimes; the way some folks will push it.
the px has been a wonderful resource for me; allowing me to pick up some optics that i wouldnt be able to afford new.....raising two boys on my own hasnt been cheap. so i truely do appreciate access to it. but if folks are abusing it, do what you have to do.
it’s a crying shame sometimes; the way some folks will push it.
Probably not a popular suggestion but why not suspend the PX section for say a couple 2-3 months to see if, or how badly, it affects traffic to this site? I've bought & sold a little bit here so it would definitely be something that I'd not like to see happen, but if it's becoming such a problem then perhaps it's time to let it go.
Holly smokes.. guys...
Signing papers? Promises?
If people had integrity, even a little, none of this would matter.
Having an a lot of “likes” is good, but maybe going back to the “ball buster mentality”, less “snow flake”, survive or be trampled, Hide works better.
Now, please be nice to me, no bad words, or aah hostility.. ok? I might cry if you show me I am a dick or poser.
Signing papers? Promises?
If people had integrity, even a little, none of this would matter.
Having an a lot of “likes” is good, but maybe going back to the “ball buster mentality”, less “snow flake”, survive or be trampled, Hide works better.
Now, please be nice to me, no bad words, or aah hostility.. ok? I might cry if you show me I am a dick or poser.
One sell post per month, one bump post per Week. This would block the undocumented commercial sellers.
@Lowlight - Since it is based on a popular CMS, it is backed by a relational database. To identify the offenders, it should be possible to run a query against the data and set a couple of thresholds on the query to define who the offers are. Then a quick review of the account and you should be able to shut them down. Since the site is probably built on a couple of plugins, the trick would be see what the relationship of the data is and deriving the query.
If we identify the offenders and put other possible restrictions in place you would have a two-prong approach. However, I totally understand that you dealing with a lot of BS for little to no return.
Appreciate your effort, the site and good luck with whatever direction that you decide!
I thought you GOT likes for trampling people as long as it’s done with some aplomb and comedic style.
Hmm complex problem, been on SH for a decent amount of time but really only started using the PX and have sold some good stuff even traded into a TacOps. I think it does more good than anything. I understand the frustration too, I like the idea of wiping the for sale ads every two weeks so people would have to repost.
This forum is great, and the PX here is great... probably the best gun classifieds I've used anywhere. I've always had very good dealings with everyone in the PX both buying and selling and the variety of stuff posted on the PX here is fantastic-- especially the amount of higher end stuff that many other forums just don't have.
That being said, I also understand the massive moderation headache the PX surely generates.
Ever since the "minimum post count or pay" plan for the PX was implemented, I've noticed several users trying to game the minimum post count requirement by posting a ton of very brief, useless replies to random threads-- often in the course of a few hours. I will say that they get reported quickly and the mods clamp down on that crap as soon as it gets noticed. The mods can't be everywhere at once and having a solid user base that knows how to use the "report" button is vital. Still, it's more work for the mods that they shouldn't have to be doing if the offending user lived up to the rules and their obligation to follow them in the first place.
Regarding bumping limits... some other forums I've been on have automated checks for that; if you bump your own ad in less than the minimum time defined in the rules the forum software automatically deletes the offending ad post, locks you out of posting in the classifieds for X number of days, and PMs you a warning. Do it again and escalates from there an account suspension for X number of days. Not sure how easy that would be to implement on this forum software.
I've been on other forums where sellers are limited to one active "for sale" thread per classified subforum, and while that does help with some of the clutter it also makes it much more difficult to find what you're looking for as a buyer as the item you're looking for may be buried in a very long thread title or even shortened to a contraction to fit within the maximum thread title length.
If tags/flags such as "for sale" and "sold/closed" can be added to the threads in the PX, the forum software may be able to automatically limit the sellers to a certain number of active "for sale" ads in each PX subsection at any given time to cut down on the clutter and those abusing the system.
In the end it's Frank's forum and he has to do what is best for him and the site. I'd sure miss the PX though, I've talked to a lot of good people and bought and sold a *lot* of cool stuff here over the last several years because of it.
That being said, I also understand the massive moderation headache the PX surely generates.
Ever since the "minimum post count or pay" plan for the PX was implemented, I've noticed several users trying to game the minimum post count requirement by posting a ton of very brief, useless replies to random threads-- often in the course of a few hours. I will say that they get reported quickly and the mods clamp down on that crap as soon as it gets noticed. The mods can't be everywhere at once and having a solid user base that knows how to use the "report" button is vital. Still, it's more work for the mods that they shouldn't have to be doing if the offending user lived up to the rules and their obligation to follow them in the first place.
Regarding bumping limits... some other forums I've been on have automated checks for that; if you bump your own ad in less than the minimum time defined in the rules the forum software automatically deletes the offending ad post, locks you out of posting in the classifieds for X number of days, and PMs you a warning. Do it again and escalates from there an account suspension for X number of days. Not sure how easy that would be to implement on this forum software.
I've been on other forums where sellers are limited to one active "for sale" thread per classified subforum, and while that does help with some of the clutter it also makes it much more difficult to find what you're looking for as a buyer as the item you're looking for may be buried in a very long thread title or even shortened to a contraction to fit within the maximum thread title length.
If tags/flags such as "for sale" and "sold/closed" can be added to the threads in the PX, the forum software may be able to automatically limit the sellers to a certain number of active "for sale" ads in each PX subsection at any given time to cut down on the clutter and those abusing the system.
In the end it's Frank's forum and he has to do what is best for him and the site. I'd sure miss the PX though, I've talked to a lot of good people and bought and sold a *lot* of cool stuff here over the last several years because of it.
Bump only if you delete previous bump. One bump per thread is the result.
Easier to navigate.
I'm going to guess that buyers raise as many issues as sellers.
Seller not gonna be shipping unless they gots the money.
Some buyers might buy stuff completely over their heads and not know how it works.
It's a buyer beware world, can't get past it. Can't fix stupid.
Sometimes the buyer acts FAST so the deal doesn't get scooped up by someone else.
Time delays, like sleep time sometimes extends PM questions and answers.
Snooze you lose mentality.
Some have no idea how to navigate history. Maybe clickable education section that must be completed before selling anything.
Hard to automate but a review by mods could get you tossed before something goes bad and a mod has to toss you anyway.
As far as commercial an employee (shill) of a business will be difficult to confirm.
Man, I like this place. So many free answers to questions I never thought to ask.
I tell all my friends I'm a member here.
Easier to navigate.
I'm going to guess that buyers raise as many issues as sellers.
Seller not gonna be shipping unless they gots the money.
Some buyers might buy stuff completely over their heads and not know how it works.
It's a buyer beware world, can't get past it. Can't fix stupid.
Sometimes the buyer acts FAST so the deal doesn't get scooped up by someone else.
Time delays, like sleep time sometimes extends PM questions and answers.
Snooze you lose mentality.
Some have no idea how to navigate history. Maybe clickable education section that must be completed before selling anything.
Hard to automate but a review by mods could get you tossed before something goes bad and a mod has to toss you anyway.
As far as commercial an employee (shill) of a business will be difficult to confirm.
Man, I like this place. So many free answers to questions I never thought to ask.
I tell all my friends I'm a member here.
As you know, I have reached out to you numerous times when I saw the multiple ass hats whom surfaced doing what they shouldn’t. Having said that, you have nothing to worry about in coming off to harshly.It has to be both. I've nabbed a couple of scammers and spammers who sign up and come back months later.
I'd be fine with a year as well. I just didn't want to diminish my reputation as a kind and thoughtful mod and come off too harshly.
In general, can some of us help marshal the buy/sale forums as a start?
It’s a nice part of what makes the Hide what it is, and I as well hate to see it change.
Yeah, I don't deal with folks that have been here for two weeks, have just 100 posts or not even that, etc.
I'd ask that if you do make restrictions, please choose years as a member multiplied by the number of posts to come up with a metric --those over a certain number are exempt. That would be totally fair too since it's based on two separate variables. See, to some of us this is a true community and I've NEVER had a problem with a member here that has a thousand or more posts and/or been here since 2009 or whatever.
The people I deal with on here are for the most part people I wouldn't mind visiting with and people with whom I do communicate with on here. Not a big wheeler and dealer anyway, but I do appreciate it and it does help us all around get better deals for the most part.
Also could just monitor the PX and delete accounts for the rule breakers, the newbies that obviously don't give a fuck. It wouldn't be like we'd be losing anything we wanted to keep, right? We could report the ones we come across, and you guys could look at it and decide. That'd be an easy way. We can police ourselves for the most part if you want us to.
It's still the best damn site on the internet. Fact.
My simple thoughts
P.S. Frank is also constantly pitching the new products either here or in his Podcast so all these folk are getting free ads already.
- This entire forum is intended to be a knowledge base for precision shooting
- This forum is not meant for sales (Frank has mentioned this multiple times)
- If you came here to sell and not contribute then buy 500 posts for $500
- If you came here to discuss, learn, and argue in the Bear Pit then reaching 500 posts will take no time at all
- Valid posts should be greater than 50 words.
P.S. Frank is also constantly pitching the new products either here or in his Podcast so all these folk are getting free ads already.
My sympathies regarding the stupidity that you have to deal with.
A suggestion that I have is maybe it would be worth it to make the requirement to sell as follows:
No buy in, posts only
Posts accrued must be outside of the sales section.
That would effectively limit it to contributing members.
I have bought several things of the PX and it helped me out a lot because I was able to get some items that had been on my list for a long time and I got them at good prices. Not the reason I visit the site, but it is a nice benefit.
Best of luck with this.
A suggestion that I have is maybe it would be worth it to make the requirement to sell as follows:
No buy in, posts only
Posts accrued must be outside of the sales section.
That would effectively limit it to contributing members.
I have bought several things of the PX and it helped me out a lot because I was able to get some items that had been on my list for a long time and I got them at good prices. Not the reason I visit the site, but it is a nice benefit.
Best of luck with this.
I want to mimic what @MK20 said. If we want the community to remain tight and with mostly pure motives, then "NO BUY IN" for the PX. I was on Scout in the Pre-Scout era. Life happened and and I missed the community. I'm back and I had to create a new account.
If you look at my posts, you will see that there is substance and I have a lot of likes. I don't want to be punished for the guys that "buy in" and scam people nor do i want to be punished for the people who have 100 BS posts.
Whatever you decide @Lowlight , please consider my words. I know there is a lot of work involved for the mods and you and I appreciate what you do.
I just got to the point again where I can be in the PX section and I have bought a couple of things. I've been able to talk with members and I feel like I'm part of the team. Limiting me because of some douchebags seems penal. Anyway, those are my thoughts and I'm not going anywhere.
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I also hate the idea that you buy posts or likes that would show up on your profile. That’s what I use to see if the people seem legit.
However, I am not against changing them enough to make it worth Franks time.
But I do think, not buying in and having real posts and surviving without getting shelled, helped make the Hide what it is.
In the end Frank should be able to better monetize the global value of this site by not allowing buying in, rather than have sneaky reatailers compete with his site sponsors and advertisers, devaluing the site to them.
However, I am not against changing them enough to make it worth Franks time.
But I do think, not buying in and having real posts and surviving without getting shelled, helped make the Hide what it is.
In the end Frank should be able to better monetize the global value of this site by not allowing buying in, rather than have sneaky reatailers compete with his site sponsors and advertisers, devaluing the site to them.
The PX is a great tool but it has become abused by commercial guys and the people that just post links back to their shops. I think a bump limit should be enforced and remove any of the aforementioned. I don't post a lot on here but am friends with a lot of the members and shoot a lot of disciplines. ( I started when the website was on the other sports server). I am sure the admins will improve the PX but hopefully it doesn't hurt the average user like myself. I love this site for the knowledge and having a resource to find parts for builds. Thanks, going back to my coffee now.
100 posts
And 6 months
And only 3 bumps per week
And Posts in PX don’t count toward post count.
And commercial sales limited to their section and must buy in or buy ads or something that matches your business model.
II recognize this must be a nightmare to ‘manage’ . I’ve learned a ton here and appreciate all the dialogue with regular joes’s and industry folks. A unique and valuable resource would hate to see it change.
And 6 months
And only 3 bumps per week
And Posts in PX don’t count toward post count.
And commercial sales limited to their section and must buy in or buy ads or something that matches your business model.
II recognize this must be a nightmare to ‘manage’ . I’ve learned a ton here and appreciate all the dialogue with regular joes’s and industry folks. A unique and valuable resource would hate to see it change.
I've found myself spending mode time moderating the PX lately than anything else. Mostly bumping violations. Guys bumping shit 3-4 times the same damn day they posted the item for sale. Then to argue with. I think bans instead of warnings are going to come out more frequently.
Maybe just treat it like the LEO/Mil sub-forum? Limit the access by having to approve access to the forum on a by name basis. More time and energy spent up front, but less in managing it long term.
JMTCW...
JMTCW...
Frank,
Just shut the fucking thing down, that place has been a on an off shit storm as far back as I can recall. Don't butter knife it if you keep, it make it painful for those here for that shit only.
Just shut the fucking thing down, that place has been a on an off shit storm as far back as I can recall. Don't butter knife it if you keep, it make it painful for those here for that shit only.
I don't think shutting it down is the answer. This is a great site with the best exchange out there. I still think a paid per year site sponsor type deal to get in the PX for everyone would be an easy solution. Couple that with minimum post count and you would take out half the crap right there.. 25 bucks to a year or something to buy or sell anything.
I find it intersting to see who is saying what, once you look at where the bulk of their posts are at.
Just ban the abusers for 6 months first offense and permanent the second time.
Punishing the the masses for the actions of a few assholes has become the norm.
Punishing the the masses for the actions of a few assholes has become the norm.
Maybe don't warn, just ban, say starting for a week the first offense, then month, then premanent. They get an automated pm stating they violated the rules of the site. Limit bumping to once per week. Violate=ban. Don't think it would take to long to weed out the problems. Charge for listings comes to mind. I belong to a few fishing sites, that to list u have to pay. Then it's a very modified listing.
Ive been a member since 2013. I seldom post. I learned long ago to keep quiet and let others teach. I do spend a lot of time reading through other's posts. Much of the equipment discussed here is not readily available in NE (and maybe anywhere) and this forum is the only way I can reasonably compare equipment and see what people like and whats new.
I haven't sold anything in the PX but I have bought a few things. I just missed a S&B scope on the PX, but ended up having a long series of email discussions with the seller on what he liked about that scope and his impression of how it compared to others he has used. I have also learned a lot by READING the PX ads. And lets be honest, the PX is THE place to look for high end precision rifle equipment. The PX adds knowledge and value to this community. So my humble suggestions.
-Don't eliminate the PX and don't limit READ access or buying access to the PX. There is a lot to learn there even if you're not selling.
-Use years in as the criteria for selling. You can boost posts but you can't speed up time. At the rate I post I'll be dead before I accrue 1,000 posts.
-Maybe limit sales posts to 1-2 rifles or scopes a month? Past this get an upgrade account. This gives the hobby guys a way to sell and upgrade equipment. This doesn't solve the ad bumping problem but at least slows the hidden commercial sellers.
I can see the PX is a PITA to admin and is being abused. Usually only valuable things are abused.
Jim
I haven't sold anything in the PX but I have bought a few things. I just missed a S&B scope on the PX, but ended up having a long series of email discussions with the seller on what he liked about that scope and his impression of how it compared to others he has used. I have also learned a lot by READING the PX ads. And lets be honest, the PX is THE place to look for high end precision rifle equipment. The PX adds knowledge and value to this community. So my humble suggestions.
-Don't eliminate the PX and don't limit READ access or buying access to the PX. There is a lot to learn there even if you're not selling.
-Use years in as the criteria for selling. You can boost posts but you can't speed up time. At the rate I post I'll be dead before I accrue 1,000 posts.
-Maybe limit sales posts to 1-2 rifles or scopes a month? Past this get an upgrade account. This gives the hobby guys a way to sell and upgrade equipment. This doesn't solve the ad bumping problem but at least slows the hidden commercial sellers.
I can see the PX is a PITA to admin and is being abused. Usually only valuable things are abused.
Jim
I've started making a spreadsheet recently of who I warned so bans come the second time cause the forum does not keep track of that. But guess what, thsts a shit ton of work that I shouldnt have to be doing so you break the rules ban.
Everyone says I thought it was 1 per day, the rules say 1x every 24hrs. Or I didnt realize or I wasnt paying attention. If this thread isnt an awakening to read and know the rules then oh well.
I agree, the PX is a great place to trade/sell quality gear by contributing members but I find more and more every day people in the PX that have NEVER posted outside the PX. I'm not going soft anymore. Let's try and clean this up real fast before we loose something that really supports contributing members
Having bought, sold, and participated in discussions here for a while, what I value is the (mostly) honest sellers and buyers who are in the hobby/sport. It’s a time investment to get to the 100 post mark, and tells quite a bit about the legitimacy of the person on the other side of the keyboard. When considering that time investment, I don’t think a $100 or even $200 price point to buy 100 posts is unreasonable. It would make someone think if it’s worth it to pedal knock off items that are turning minor profits, and I believe that is what you are trying to prevent. I assume you don’t want dilute or debase those in community who you value (which I am assuming are the legitimate and active members).
D
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I check new posts more than once a day most days and have noticed an uptick of User IDs that only post in the store. There are some that are trusted dealers sort of speak. I call them old fashioned traders. But there is a bunch of overpriced bullshit going on by some for what amounts to things I would just donate to somebody else that needs it locally.
I come and go from this site as my interests rotate between rifles, pistols and archery. I have used the PX to learn and purchase pieces that I would not attempt buyin at new prices. I always check the posts of who I am looking to buy from and make sure that they seem like they value this community with posts and commentary. Generally guys who post a lot here value their online reputation and are good to work with especially concerning high value items. I would pay a yearly fee to continue to have the benefit of the PX and the forums that are fairly hospitable when I ask stupid questions.
After catching up on this thread I’ve read some quality ideas. Others, not so much. I’ve bought, sold & traded a few items over the years w/ zero issues.
These transactions range from $100 to $3G+ on each side. There really is an element of trust required by both parties. For some transactions I feel more comfortable discussing terms over the phone. This is an interview as much as it is bartering. If it doesn’t seem above board, I tell the other party I’m no longer interested. If all seems legit & we come to an agreement, I’ll take the time to type said terms in a pmail so the terms of the transaction are very clear. If mods should be needed, everything is explained clearly. I spell it out in the simplest of terms so that any dumbass can figure this out. Zero ambiguity helps.
The PX really is badass. That being said, I realize people take advantage of the site / rules. Posting in the PX shouldn’t count at all toward your post count. What if there was a way to access past history such as a transaction history? List a few ‘Hiders you’ve dealt w/ in the past who’re willing to vouch for you?
Ultimately Frank & the mods will do what they must for the benefit of the site. Those who don’t contribute meaningfully in other ways won’t be missed anyway.
These transactions range from $100 to $3G+ on each side. There really is an element of trust required by both parties. For some transactions I feel more comfortable discussing terms over the phone. This is an interview as much as it is bartering. If it doesn’t seem above board, I tell the other party I’m no longer interested. If all seems legit & we come to an agreement, I’ll take the time to type said terms in a pmail so the terms of the transaction are very clear. If mods should be needed, everything is explained clearly. I spell it out in the simplest of terms so that any dumbass can figure this out. Zero ambiguity helps.
The PX really is badass. That being said, I realize people take advantage of the site / rules. Posting in the PX shouldn’t count at all toward your post count. What if there was a way to access past history such as a transaction history? List a few ‘Hiders you’ve dealt w/ in the past who’re willing to vouch for you?
Ultimately Frank & the mods will do what they must for the benefit of the site. Those who don’t contribute meaningfully in other ways won’t be missed anyway.
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