Suppressors Question about suppressors and paperwork

Thud

Thud

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Sep 14, 2007
    1,848
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    Fort Worth, Texas
    #1
    At the range I go to there is one guy who has one and boasts he is special. Don't ask me what that means.
    I know you must carry your paper work with you what you are using it.
    My concern is if he has the suppressor with him and is shooting who has the legal authority to ask him where the paperwork is. And if he refuses to produce it what is the ranges recourse and what are the issues will fall into the ranges lap if he fails to produce the p/w.
    Thanks
     
    #2
    He may be a LEO and it may be issued to him by his Department, thus no paperwork. This comes up all the time in academic discussions. In my experience, LEOs aren't walking around asking folks for suppressor paperwork unless there is some other underlying reason for the LEO interaction..(Illegal Hunting being the most common that I see).

    If the private range requires it and he doesn't produce it, then they can kick him off the range.

    If the LEO ask for it (under lawful circumstances) and he can't produce it, then there are several options they can pursue depending on the state.
     
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    #8
    I believe at the Federal level only ATF can randomly ask for paper work without seeing the NFA item first. Not 100% on that.

    In TX it is a 3 deg felony to be in possession of and unregistered NFA item, if a law officer sees your NFA item they can ask if it is registered or not. If you do not have your docs with you how can you prove it is registered? Granted eventually you could prove it was registered but why risk an extended stay with LE? IMO it is easier to carry PDF copies on your phone for your NFA items.
     
    #11
    LSUbeatUby40 said:
    I thought the ATF already noted that the forms must only be produced for an ATF agent. LEO has no right to ask for personal tax info which is what the form is. Has that changed?
    Click to expand...

    It depends. Some states they are illegal but it is defense to prosecution to have them registered through the nfa. So legally they only one that can request your docs are the feds. But a range can require they see them to shoot and not allow you to use their private property if you do not show. Also a local Leo can not inspect them but they can arrest you and make you defend yourself.


    I don’t understand the big deal with Leo’s seeing paperwork. A) it rarely happens and b) you may be the rap but you won’t beat the ride. Showing Leos respect will go along way to resolving whatever the issue is.
     
    #12
    cleric said:
    It depends. Some states they are illegal but it is defense to prosecution to have them registered through the nfa. So legally they only one that can request your docs are the feds. But a range can require they see them to shoot and not allow you to use their private property if you do not show. Also a local Leo can not inspect them but they can arrest you and make you defend yourself.


    I don’t understand the big deal with Leo’s seeing paperwork. A) it rarely happens and b) you may be the rap but you won’t beat the ride. Showing Leos respect will go along way to resolving whatever the issue is.
    Click to expand...
    I understand the reasons. What I'm saying is legally you dont have to show leo shit. They cannot arrest you either. All they can do is contact the atf and request info on if the can is registered or not.

    Also there is no big deal showing leo paperwork. The problem I have is if I tell them no it should be no big deal since legally I dont have to and for most that would probably be an issue.
     
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    #13
    LSUbeatUby40 said:
    I understand the reasons. What I'm saying is legally you dont have to show leo shit. They cannot arrest you either. All they can do is contact the atf and request info on if the can is registered or not.

    Also there is no big deal showing leo paperwork. The problem I have is if I tell them no it should be no big deal since legally I dont have to and for most that would probably be an issue.
    Click to expand...

    Depending on the state, a local Leo can arrest you for having it if you don’t show the paperwork. You will then go to court and presumably use your paperwork as a defense to prosecution. Ergo they will see it.

    What is Defense to Prosecution? (DTP)

    Defense to Prosecution Statutes are bad laws that turn our system of justice on it's head, requiring proof of innocence instead of proof of guilt.
    www.nfafa.org
     
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    #14
    LSUbeatUby40 said:
    I understand the reasons. What I'm saying is legally you dont have to show leo shit. They cannot arrest you either. All they can do is contact the atf and request info on if the can is registered or not.

    Also there is no big deal showing leo paperwork. The problem I have is if I tell them no it should be no big deal since legally I dont have to and for most that would probably be an issue.
    Click to expand...

    In Texas you do, as stated above.
     
    #15
    I'd bet that even if they can only ask ATF if you are the registered owner of it, without showing them the approved paperwork, you'll end up sitting in the graybar hotel until it's cleared. The ranges recourse involves kicking him out or calling law enforcement to determine it isn't illegal. Sometimes it doesn't pay to be the hard ass.
     
    #16
    cleric said:
    Depending on the state, a local Leo can arrest you for having it if you don’t show the paperwork. You will then go to court and presumably use your paperwork as a defense to prosecution. Ergo they will see it.

    What is Defense to Prosecution? (DTP)

    Defense to Prosecution Statutes are bad laws that turn our system of justice on it's head, requiring proof of innocence instead of proof of guilt.
    www.nfafa.org
    Click to expand...
    isofahunter said:
    In Texas you do, as stated above.
    Click to expand...
    https://www.ammoland.com/2015/06/nfa-weapons-now-legal-in-texas/#axzz5l1a7r29R
     
    #17
    If I was asked to produce paperwork i would first ask for some officlal form [LEO} of id if not in uniform AND in a marked car. then would show the paper work. But otherwise no, no need for anyone to know anything else about me. Stan

    PS like I have posted before I carry and downsized and laminated copy of the form,I don't leave home without it!
     
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    #19
    #20
    isofahunter said:
    Senate Bill 473 which this is referencing clearly states that it is a 3rd degree felony to possess machine guns, silencers etc... in TX, UNLESS THEY ARE REGISTERED NFA items with records kept by the ATF. You can't produce your docs you might go to state pen. In short you can own NFA items in TX but you have to be able to show they are registered with ATF.
    Click to expand...
    I guess somewhere something got lost in translation. I've never stated that unregistered nfa items were legal. I dont know why you and the other guy keep referencing it like I did.

    I simply said an LEO has no lawful right to expect you to show him your paperwork. It's not an Leo's place to request or see it. It's a federal tax document. The LEO can contact and request information from the ATF while you are detained but they cannot arrest you just because you wont show them the form.

    This link directly contradicts you and the other guys statement about DTP. That is now over in Texas as you stated earlier in this thread that it wasnt.
     
    #21
    As most states have laws regarding NFA items (I can't vouch for them all), failure to show a LEO proof of legal ownership will result in your detention. If you can not prove you are not committing a felony to the officer, you give him no choice but to arrest you on suspicion of a crime. If the RSO asks for your paperwork and you don't produce it, expect to be asked to leave. I'd guess you'd also get pulled over on the way home or get a visit from the local authorities after your tag number gets turned in. Purely speculation on my part though.
     
    #22
    Maxduty said:
    As most states have laws regarding NFA items (I can't vouch for them all), failure to show a LEO proof of legal ownership will result in your detention. If you can not prove you are not committing a felony to the officer, you give him no choice but to arrest you on suspicion of a crime. If the RSO asks for your paperwork and you don't produce it, expect to be asked to leave. I'd guess you'd also get pulled over on the way home or get a visit from the local authorities after your tag number gets turned in. Purely speculation on my part though.
    Click to expand...
    Again for semantics of the argument (I do not advocate doing this)

    There is no Texas law, like most states, that requires you to show the LEO any form 4.

    The bill states that it's only illegal if the item is not registered. Y'alls argument about him not knowing without proof while logical is not completely accurate. Clearly if he/she is asking you about it, you have the item in possesion with all information needed for confirmation from the atf.

    A quick call with a serial number, name and address will confirm the registry for the item. A form does not need to be produced, and by law is not required. In the event that is not enough, yeah you might take a ride but maybe not.

    A lot of officers are cool if you forget your DL at home as long as you give them the info required to confirm your in good standing. Again it's about knowing your laws.
     
    #24
    @LSU you and I are arguing the Spirit of the Law vs Letter of the Law. Which leads to high legal fees in court. Add in the fact we are on the internet it can run off the rails.
    You are correct in saying there is no specific law in TX saying you must have docs on you and present them to LE. However I believe the Spirit was intended to have people provide docs when asked.
    The ATF suggests keeping copies of docs with the item during transportation.

    Many moons ago I was a guest of the Coppell PD because I was in wrong place at wrong time and I crossed paths with a LEO that thought I had an NFA item. After 8 hours of back and forth at the station it was determined I did not possess an NFA item and was released. If one can avoid extended engagement with LE by carrying copies of docs I suggest they do so.

    PS I am looking forward to 11-30-19
     
    #25
    isofahunter said:
    @LSU you and I are arguing the Spirit of the Law vs Letter of the Law. Which leads to high legal fees in court. Add in the fact we are on the internet it can run off the rails.
    You are correct in saying there is no specific law in TX saying you must have docs on you and present them to LE. However I believe the Spirit was intended to have people provide docs when asked.
    The ATF suggests keeping copies of docs with the item during transportation.

    Many moons ago I was a guest of the Coppell PD because I was in wrong place at wrong time and I crossed paths with a LEO that thought I had an NFA item. After 8 hours of back and forth at the station it was determined I did not possess an NFA item and was released. If one can avoid extended engagement with LE by carrying copies of docs I suggest they do so.

    PS I am looking forward to 11-30-19
    Click to expand...
    I don't disagree with anything you said, but the question asked was who has the authority to ask for your papers and I answered that question according to the laws of the State of Louisiana and also ATFs official notifications sent out previously some years back. I just happen to find the Texas stuff for the arguments sake.

    Like I said in another post, I don't recommend being a dick, but by the letter of the law in most states, there is no law that says a form 1/4 or any other ATF paperwork needs to be produced to an LEO. That's all I was trying to get across.

    As for that 11-30-19. We owe yall.
     
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    #26
    You’ll beat the rap but you might not beat the ride. At a fed level, only ATF can ask to see paperwork. State level is more complicated. In Virginia, silencers aren’t regulated at all so no worry there. MG, SBR and SBS do need proof of legal ownership so the form 4, or Virginia’s machine gun registration form, is your defense.
     
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    #29
    If Jonny Law comes asking about your NFA items and you claim DEA or FBI you had better have your DOJ credentials. If you fail to produce those you will accrue unpaid leave and a very uncomfortable conversation with a station chief.
     
    #30
    Felhammer said:
    If Jonny Law comes asking about your NFA items and you claim DEA or FBI you had better have your DOJ credentials. If you fail to produce those you will accrue unpaid leave and a very uncomfortable conversation with a station chief.
    Click to expand...

    I never said I worked for the doj or the Fed in any capacity...I am a simple civilian and if any joe Snuffy or local leo asked for my tax paperwork I would tell you both to get lost.
     
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    #33
    Local law enforcement under Pred Far agreement can lawfully detain any persons under the suspicion of violations of any Federal law in compliance with state constitution. The federal agencies in that area of enforcement would then determine if you are within compliance of federal code. If you are found to be in lawful possession of an NFA item but failed to cooperate with local authorities the ATF may reevaluate your stamp authorization and take possession of those items. Lots of “I know my rights” inmates at USP Florence for federal firearms charges. They have an entire unit dedicated to them.
     
    #35
    isofahunter said:
    Senate Bill 473 which this is referencing clearly states that it is a 3rd degree felony to possess machine guns, silencers etc... in TX, UNLESS THEY ARE REGISTERED NFA items with records kept by the ATF. You can't produce your docs you might go to state pen. In short you can own NFA items in TX but you have to be able to show they are registered with ATF.
    Click to expand...

    The intent of SB473 was to remove the burden to "PROVE" you are not guilty. In Texas, If you do not show your docs to the local LEO, nothing should happen as the LEO has no probable cause, nor even reasonable suspicion it is unregistered, to make an arrest. If you know of ANYONE arrested for legal possession of an NFA item by a Texas Peace Officer, please forward that info to TSRA and NFA/FA.

    I agree with the logic though it is easier to show docs, than fight it later.
     
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    #36
    Felhammer said:
    Local law enforcement under Pred Far agreement can lawfully detain any persons under the suspicion of violations of any Federal law in compliance with state constitution. The federal agencies in that area of enforcement would then determine if you are within compliance of federal code. If you are found to be in lawful possession of an NFA item but failed to cooperate with local authorities the ATF may reevaluate your stamp authorization and take possession of those items. Lots of “I know my rights” inmates at USP Florence for federal firearms charges. They have an entire unit dedicated to them.
    Click to expand...

    BS guy... So is florance supermax some sorta gluag now where you get sent for excercising your rights legally? Nobody gets sent to florance for simply requiring local leo for operating within the law.

    We all should know our rights so you guys who think you are God working for the fed can get held in check.

    I never said I wouldn't cooperate, I said I would tell you to get lost. If my local pd decided to get on a power Trip, because just randomly asking me for my "papers" while legally shooting if no crime is being committed is exactly what that would be. I would tell you I have stamps and would provide my name and Id as required. They could then decide if we want to play the let's go downtown game and if they did I would kindly remind them that all of my forms were politely and legally mailed to the chief so go ask him what he did with his copies. If they would like to get someone down with atf credentials I would be happy to produce my stamps as required by law.

    I am not a sheep. I am a hog and will die on my feet as a patriot not some boot licker or some big gov yes man. Nothing wrong or illegal for making leo follow the law just like I'm expected to.
     
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    #37
    isofahunter said:
    IMO it is easier to carry PDF copies on your phone for your NFA items.
    Click to expand...


    This. I really doubt that anyone will ever ask to see my paperwork for mine, but there may be some ATF agent come to the range one day with nothing better to. Just too easy with today's technology to keep a pdf saved either directly on your phone or in a cloud storage folder you can access anywhere.
     
    #38
    So, Probable cause and reason of suspicion is why you are approached in the first place. As a Fed im not going around randomly patting people down for a lottery chance that they have federally prohibited items. However, if someone says to local authorities “he has a weapon and I feel threatened.” Some state consider that as menacing. It’s a shit move by spineless people but the process still has to play out. Most cases it goes nowhere. But if during an interview the person in question say “I ain’t showing you shit” that changes the game. All they have to do is contact the ATF and your case is suspended for review.
     
    #40
    Huskydriver said:
    BS guy... So is florance supermax some sorta gluag now where you get sent for excercising your rights legally? Nobody gets sent to florance for simply requiring local leo for operating within the law.

    We all should know our rights so you guys who think you are God working for the fed can get held in check.

    I never said I wouldn't cooperate, I said I would tell you to get lost. If my local pd decided to get on a power Trip, because just randomly asking me for my "papers" while legally shooting if no crime is being committed is exactly what that would be. I would tell you I have stamps and would provide my name and Id as required. They could then decide if we want to play the let's go downtown game and if they did I would kindly remind them that all of my forms were politely and legally mailed to the chief so go ask him what he did with his copies. If they would like to get someone down with atf credentials I would be happy to produce my stamps as required by law.

    I am not a sheep. I am a hog and will die on my feet as a patriot not some boot licker or some big gov yes man. Nothing wrong or illegal for making leo follow the law just like I'm expected to.
    Click to expand...

    I wasn’t intendinding to question your internet toughness. I’m sure you are the one guy that will triumph against the evil oppression of enforcement. All the villagers cheared and he received blow jobs from all the old ladies.”

    For starters the ADX has not been mentioned anywhere in this thread. Fix your tinfoil hat bud. You can say BS all you want. You can talk up your 3% internet persona but we both know that when the interview process starts 99% butter is what comes out. But again I’m sure that you will clam up and resist while opting to take the lesser charge of failure to comply with a federal investigation.
     
    #41
    1. My attorney informed me, in an unrelated subject, that a photograph of "legal documents" is considered the same as a photocopy of "legal documents". So a photo in your phone should suffice presenting legal documentation for your NFA item.

    2. Ranges, in general, are private property so they can institute pretty much any rules they want. Including changing their policies on the spot.

    3. Mind your own business unless you have proof someone is doing something wrong and or dangerous to others. He's a fucking loudmouth, leave being an ass to him.
     
    #42
    Ok, so we clearly got sidetracked and I apologize for that. I work with local PDs a lot and when I see how hard they have it and then see the “I’ll tell a cop to fuck off” mentality.... I start seeing red. My original reason for responding was was the you had mentioned the the FBI and DEA don’t have to carry anything to accompany a suppressor and that’s not true. The DOJ Credentials are the authorization for those items. Again I apologize it has been a stressful 40 hours.
     
    #43
    Felhammer said:
    I wasn’t intendinding to question your internet toughness. I’m sure you are the one guy that will triumph against the evil oppression of enforcement. All the villagers cheared and he received blow jobs from all the old ladies.”

    For starters the ADX has not been mentioned anywhere in this thread. Fix your tinfoil hat bud. You can say BS all you want. You can talk up your 3% internet persona but we both know that when the interview process starts 99% butter is what comes out. But again I’m sure that you will clam up and resist while opting to take the lesser charge of failure to comply with a federal investigation.
    Click to expand...

    How am I being charged with failing to comply with a federal invs? I said if and when we go downtown I am suspected of committing a federal crime and a ATF agent requests my stamps sure, I will provide them because that is what is required no more no less.
     
    #44
    Huskydriver said:
    How am I being charged with failing to comply with a federal invs? I said if when we go downtown I am suspected of committing a federal crime and a ATF agent requests my stamps sure I will provide them because that is what is required no more no less.
    Click to expand...

    Right, that is my fault. A very stressful case and lack of sleep has caused me to skim read through this and make some key inaccurate assumptions about what you were suggesting. I clearly have presented an over reaction based on misinterpretation. Thus making myself look foolish. The assumption was that you was suggesting that you would tell me to “get lost” upon request for authorization. My sleep deprived brain did not take into account that you had no way of knowing that I am a Fed. I apologize again for this.
     
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    #45
    Felhammer said:
    Right, that is my fault. A very stressful case and lack of sleep has caused me to skim read through this and make some key inaccurate assumptions about what you were suggesting. I clearly have presented an over reaction based on misinterpretation. Thus making myself look foolish. The assumption was that you was suggesting that you would tell me to “get lost” upon request for authorization. My sleep deprived brain did not take into account that you had no way of knowing that I am a Fed. I apologize again for this.
    Click to expand...

    Whether he knew you were a Fed or not, it wouldn't matter. But good on you for owning up to your mistake. You said it, LEOs especially Federal Special Agents do not go around patting people down or asking to see their Tax Stamps. It just doesn't happen. For a couple of reasons, which I am happy to discuss through PM.

    As a matter of good practice, I carry my paperwork with me when I have my personal cans and SBRs with me and of course I make sure that I have my credentials with me anytime I have cans that The Man owns. For the personal cans, it is mainly so I have the information with me in the unlikely event they are stolen and I need to provide information to the responding officer....not because of the shakedown scenario above. I have been all over this wonderful country and many different ranges with suppressors, SBRs, and all kinds of weird stuff and not one time have I ever been asked for any proof. I suspect that is the way it is for the overwhelming majority of NFA owners.
     
    Last edited:
    #46
    i shoot at a state park range where the park rangers come down to ck up on things randomly. And have been shooting suppressed and never have been asked to show papers. A few asked what brand it was and what cal I was shooting. NOW if it was homemade maybe their eyes would be looking closer but that is pure spec. Stan
     
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    #47
    Some of you guys crack me up. You won't show your NFA paperwork to the law, cause it's no one's business what you have, then you get on the internet and post pictures of everything in your safe when someone posts a "show 'em" thread.......… SMH.
     
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    #48
    You are better off just keeping the paperwork with the NFA item. I am pretty sure only the ATF can actually require you to show your paperwork. That being said in the case of a LEO for some reason wanting to see it then you might as well show them it, no harm done really. No reason to have to go through a brief court process for a petty reason. Now that being said I would be even more surprised if a LEO actually knew what a Form 1/Form 4 was. Not all LEOs are gun people, and some have no idea what the legalities revolving NFA items actually are.
     
    #49
    Felhammer said:
    Local law enforcement under Pred Far agreement can lawfully detain any persons under the suspicion of violations of any Federal law in compliance with state constitution. The federal agencies in that area of enforcement would then determine if you are within compliance of federal code
    . If you are found to be in lawful possession of an NFA item but failed to cooperate with local authorities the ATF may reevaluate your stamp authorization and take possession of those items
    Click to expand...
    . Lots of “I know my rights” inmates at USP Florence for federal firearms charges. They have an entire unit dedicated to them.
    Click to expand...

    Bullshit
     
    #50
    Great rebuttal. I clearly have met my match. I had no idea I would be debating against a tenured Yale professor. Please spare me the embarrassment, I concede sir. Take pity on me I am but a lowly officer.
     
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