Suppressors Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

[Glock45]

Hello all,

Okay, I'm *NOT* starting or intending to start a pissing match about caliber, or who's better, etc. But I would like a clean debate about this question that has had me going back -n -forth for last year.

From an operator's AND armorer perspective, why carry a 1911 vs. a Glock/M&P/Sig, etc?

Here is why I ask. I am LE. I am an armorer(which I know is a fancy word for gun take-aparter/gun put together-er dude) and yes I did make up those words.

Anyhow, I'm an armorer for the Glock and 1911's. I love them both for their own reasons. About the time I convince myself of one, then I start convincing myself of the other. But I can't help but look at, from a mechanical standpoint, if the 1911 breaks, a fair number of its parts need to be fitted. A Glock, one reaches in the parts bin, slaps it in, off the gun goes, back in service.

I also realize preventitive maintenance is performed so after "x" thousand rounds fired, parts 3,7,12 and 23 get replaced, regardless. Buuuuuuutttt, as we know Murphy is a very busy guy in all our lives and our guns.

So again, NOT a war about caliber, round-count, plastic vs. metal. This may be a poor choice of words, but how do you "justify" one over the other? I look forward to your responses.

-G45

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

you don't... the only people who shoot a 1911 over a Glock are people who just LIKE the 1911 more... this coming from a dedicated 1911 fan... the 1911 only has 2 points over a Glock (IMHO) ergonomics (which doesn't really matter unless you're used to/prefer a 1911's feel) and trigger... very few people could ever say any pistol has a better trigger than a 1911.

 

[244]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

Both are fine pistols, but have different strong points. I have had officers turn in Glocks who have obviously not cleaned them at all after years of use. The exterior MAY have been wiped off, but they were not field stripped to be cleaned. One even had the factory copper grease mixed in with all the firing residue and dust bunnies. These pistols also shot just fine.

I have less experience with the 1911 and cannot make more than an educated guess, but I doubt their reliability would be as good as a Glock, given the lack of maintenance.

The DAO, lack of a purposefully manipulated safety, reliability (with or without PMCS), reduced costs of parts, and reduced labor cost of repair all bode well for Glock. For these reasons it is my opinion that Glocks (and similar pistols) make good choices for the vast majority of LE.

The 1911 really shines for those that are willing to extract the best from themselves and their pistol. I can see them being excellent choices for operators who will take care of it and train.

They are tools. For many a ruler is close enough, others can use a caliper.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

The 1911 vs. the rest.... Hmmmm, interesting. Here is my perspective from a manipulation point of view.

The 1911 is not the best choice for the layman shooter or that officer/service member that goes to the range once or twice a year for their qual and it stays in the holster the rest of the time. You must practice with it often to ensure proper manipulation of the thumb safety in a high stress situation. If the shooter trains often (once or twice a week minimum) then it is just fine, but otherwise it is not the best choice.

Yes, of course everyone who carries should train that often, but let's be honest about what really happens here. You can get away with less carrying a striker or DA weapon.

I also cringe every time I see someone lowering their hammer on a loaded chamber. It's a ND waiting to happen and is also something that the novice thinks is perfectly acceptable because they see it done in the movies all the time. This is the whole reason decock levers were invented and why a 1911 is carried cocked and on safe, and should never be decocked on a loaded chamber.

Finally, personalization is fine and great, but I believe weapon uniformity amongst a unit is important as far as baseline functioning and ammunition of a weapon is concerned. If you have an eight man team with four carrying 1911s, two carrying Glocks, one with a Beretta and one with a Sig that can be real bad if Murphy comes knocking. I have the same mindset on long guns as I won't intermix side charging ARs with standard and they're all 5.56. Everyone must agree on or at least accept one platform.

 

[Lefty06]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

If I was to pick between a 1911 or a Glock it would be 1911 all the way. Not saying there's anything wrong with the Glock it's a proven firearm, but I don't like the feel of the Glock.

 

[nw911guy]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glock45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A Glock, one reaches in the parts bin, slaps it in, off the gun goes, back in service.

-G45 </div></div>

Unless the takedown lever spring breaks off flush with the frame. That seems to necessitate a trip to Glock.

Ok, my view of the 1911

vs. The Glock.Simple for me the Glock's stupid little lever plastic crappy safety thing is not a sure release for me after a draw. So, the slim grip of the 1911, the trigger, the fact it has a deliberate manual safety, and I really appreciate the lines. That said, its not a beginners gun. It is very unforgiving of neglect and negligence in handling.

Vs. The Sig. Sig builds amazing firearms. Very high quality. And rarely do they create a market failure. That said, I started out with an H&K USP40C and was taught to ride the thumb safety. Unfortunately, that technique is so ingrained in me now, that I've been unable to break that habit. It just happens to be where the slide catch is located on a Sig, so the slide doesn't lock back on the last round for me.

Vs. The M&P. The trigger. Period. Reminds me of the Sigma. Spongy and vague.

VS. H&K. These guys are capable of turning out amazingly reliable guns but they wouldn't know a good trigger if it fell on them. And there customer service.....oh wait, I'm sorry, I almost used H&K and customer service in the same sentence. And frankly, their ergonomics have historically kind of sucked. Long days of shooting a USP tend to leave fingers blistered from the non-commital checkering molded into the front strap.

I think that covers why I shoot a 1911.

 

[Zebra644]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I am a member of a County Regional SWAT Team. My Chief allows us to carry 9MM, .40S$W, or .45 ACP. But we are issued the Glock. I carry the Glock 21 with a Streamlight TLR 2 in .45 ACP. I have allways been and will be a .45 ACP man. Right now I am temporarily assigned to investigations and I am allowed to carry my Springfirled Armory Champion Operator, which is also my off duty gun. The County SWAT Team leader and many of my fellow brothers are 1911 men all the way, but the County wont allow them to use them on SWAT so we all use Glocks.
1911 vs. other fire arms, well the 1911 to me fits my hand the best, well balanced and a sweet smooth consisant trigger pull,and pointablity make it in my #1.Combine that with the fact that a handgun designed pre WW1 and issued to our troops then and is still a perferred weapon system by many operators in various areas speaks volumes to me, again my 2 cents.
A couple of Dept.'s in my area have switched to the M&P and yeah they shoot good, just another Glock Clone but I have a bit of difficutly fealing the reset when letting the trigger return for another shot unlike the Glock where I have shot it so much that I can pick one up at random and take up the slack on my first squeeze, then feal the trigger rest. Glocks are Glocks, they may be ugly but they sure do work. The problem I have is that the Glocks chambered in the .40S&W are bit snappier than say the M&P. Also when I went through HAZSWAT and we were shooting in those NBC suits with the thick rubber gloves, not much room in the trigger guard and the gloves kept getting stuck in the trigger guard, so you hade to be very carefull when switching to shoot with the weak hand and not let those damn gloves cause an accidental discharge. The nice big long trigger guard on a HK USP would have solved that problem, or my 1911 so I could have engaged the thumb safety.

 

[gunnut284]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

From a LE perspective there is no reason to issue anything other than a Glock or M&P. If you have to be different a Sig or H&K is also acceptable. The durability, reliability and user friendly/ease of use factors make them top choice. If the department want to allow officers to carry personally owned alternate sidearms that's fine but for general issue Glock/M&P/Sig/HK. IMHO the Glock 17 is the best choice for an issued sidearm.

In my experience, many officers who carry 1911s view them as "the expert gun" and carry it as an image thing (yes, I know there are many who don't fall into this generalization, don't get butt-hurt). I like 1911s but a heavy, maintenance intensive, 7 shot .45 that cost $1000+ is not the best fit for a duty gun.

 

[tip2oo3]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I carry a glock, it is a tool for the job and gets treated as such. It gets rained on and usually never wiped off, it's been submerged and so forth. Simple and effective is just the way I like it. I don't complain if I nick or scratch my glock. Also having 15+ round magazines is a big advantage in an OIS situation.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

The custom 1911 .45 with a slick trigger and 1.5" 25yd accuracy has a place in terms of rapid precision placement of rounds for hostage rescue teams.

Otherwise the Glock 17/19 is a better choice for anyone who can run hollowpoints. The lower cost, ease of repair, greater magazine capacity, and lighter weight, combined with the simplicity, accuracy, corrosion resistance, and reliability of Glock make for a great combat pistol.

 

[Oregonlaw76]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I own, shoot and work on both. You can debate the two endlessly, but specifically when it comes down to which is easier to maintain when you are talking about 1000+ agency guns, the Glock wins hands down.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Glock.Simple for me the Glock's stupid little lever plastic crappy safety thing is not a sure release for me after a draw.</div></div>

what safety do you speak of that is affecting your draw?

 

[nw911guy]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Glock.Simple for me the Glock's stupid little lever plastic crappy safety thing is not a sure release for me after a draw.</div></div>

what safety do you speak of that is affecting your draw? </div></div>

Uh, more like the draw affecting the safety. If I'm not on the grip exactly right when I clear the holster, when I attempt to fire, I many times can't reach the trigger quite enough to hit the stupid trigger safety. Sucks when doing draw and fire drills. I spent enough time on it with a G19 that I decided I should ultimately stick to what works for me. Sometimes, it sucks having small hands.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Glock.Simple for me the Glock's stupid little lever plastic crappy safety thing is not a sure release for me after a draw.</div></div>

what safety do you speak of that is affecting your draw? </div></div>

Uh, more like the draw affecting the safety. If I'm not on the grip exactly right when I clear the holster, when I attempt to fire, I many times can't reach the trigger quite enough to hit the stupid trigger safety. Sucks when doing draw and fire drills. I spent enough time on it with a G19 that I decided I should ultimately stick to what works for me. Sometimes, it sucks having small hands. </div></div>

oh ok i thought you were saying there gun had issues.. but just a tip... the first step in a draw IS a good grip. if you dont achieve that youve already messed up. but if the gun dosent fit your hands when gripped properly its deffinatly not the pistol for you so like you said stick with what works.

 

[dbateman]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

1911 wins they are not maintenance intensive they go bang every time the only time I have had a failure was when I was learning to drive them ..just keep them lubed they run dirty and that go's for the tight customs as well , if you are not capable of that then you deserve to get you ass shot

practice malfunction drills no matter what you use practice they all fail eventually

as for 15rd's of glock well my 38super hold's 9 and if I cant sort it with 9 rounds I should probably have a rifle or a shotgun with me instead

I think glock suck they are made for the lowest common denominator
I dont like them and probably never will

1911 is heavy if that is a reason for you to have a sook and not want to carry it
well you must not ever need it , you probably are better off with your Tupperware

oh yeah and don't train with it ether and use all 15 round plus a reload on an angry squirrel


me I am staying with my 1911's

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

There is absolutely no doubt that from an LE Perspective the Glock is the better choice.

Lawmen are not high-speed shooters. They spend a lot of time driving a car and settling arguments. Some may go weeks without ever drawing a firearm. Those guys need something that will shoot when they haven't oiled it and last month's dust bunnies are still in the barrel.

The armorer who maintains them may or may not be a shooter. He may just be the guy who pissed the Chief off the least that year. He needs to be able to grab a part out of the box, cram it in the pistol and have it back to 100% factory function without stoning, welding or fitting of any kind.

Cost IS a factor for any department. It shouldn't be, but it is. Cheap 1911's suck. That's all there is to it.

I AM a 1911 fan. I carry one off-duty (Colt Combat Commander). I carry a G21SF on duty and am glad that I do. It's not the most ergonomic. It's not the most accurate. It will go bang anytime I need and I can make headshots with it on the move from reasonable distances. It just plain works.

If everyone on our department was scoring 100% on our qual and had the chance to shoot weekly AND we could have a skilled 1911 smith on staff, then my choice might be different. However few departments have that luxury.

 

[LSOSGT1109]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I agree with Lonewolf. As a 15 year police officer and a firearms instructor, I can't think of a valid reason for any officer to carry anything but a Glock on duty. In fact, I tell our guys they can carry anything they want, as long as it is a Glock 22, 23, or 35! LOL.

I started my career carrying my issued Sig 229. Then I switched agencies and was issued a S&W 1076 10mm, which was a giant piece of shit! Then we transitioned to Glock 35's. With the Sig, I had the occasional malfunction, with the S&W I had numerous malfunctions! I have been carrying a glock since the transition in 2004 and I have yet to have a malfunction! Now I'm not saying they won't malfunction, I know they will, I have seen other officers have them, but it has been very rare and many times I think it was operator error.

The Glock is stupid simple, idiot proof you might say. Draw it, aim it, pull the trigger, it goes bang, stop the threat, re-holster. There's no decocking lever or safety for the officer to have to remember to manipulate in a high stress situation. As Lonewolf said, most officers are not high speed shooters. I would venture to say that the majority of officers are not even what I would call "good" shooters. Many of them only fire their weapons during their mandatory qualifications which is usually only 3 times per year. Then they clean them, if we are lucky, put them back in their holster, and forget about them until the next range or God forbid they actually have to use them on duty.

I'm not bashing the 1911. I have a couple Kimbers and they are really nice pistols but I just don't think they are suited for the average officer to carry on duty. I know that LAPD SWAT carries them and that's great. Those guys train day in and day out with that pistol and the function of that weapon is engrained into their muscle memory. I don't really understand why they want a weapon that limits them to 8 round mags but that's just me.

A pistol such as a Sig that has to be decocked is kind of the same in my opinion. It's just another step that an officer under stress must remember.

A Glock is kinda like an AK-47, it may not be pretty, but it just flat out works! It's very simple to manipulate, easy to maintain, accurate, reliable, and it costs much less than most other pistols that are used in law enforcement.

As far as 9mm vs .40 vs .45 goes, shoot which ever you or your department likes! Just shoot it out of a Glock! LOL

 

[dbateman]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

yes you are right Glock's are good they work I am not saying they don't
you need to be happy with what you are using and for me that is the 1911
now I am not saying I will never use any other type of pistol but for me the 1911
is where it's at

i just get a bit sick of hearing that the 1911 is an unreliable weapon and isn't reliable out of the box a 1911 will run dirty very dirty you just need to oil it it take's 2 seconds

I know that you don't need me to tell you that I am not having a go at any one but like I said I am getting sick of ppl saying the 1911 is no good for duty or defence when it has been doing it well for 100yr's and had a reputation for running
dirty with little maintenance just oil it every now and them , I just find that the most ppl who keep saying the 1911 is no good have never used one long enough to form a honest opinion

there is nothing wrong with Glock I just trust a good 1911

 

[kentactic]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

i dont understand where you guys are getting that a 1911 is more ergonomic then a glock... a glock destroys a 1911 in ergonomics. if you looke up ergonomics in a dictonary theere would be a picture of a glock. i remember holding a 1911 in the gun store i couldnt find the slide lock with my thumb without turning the gun sideways and locating it.

i had never even shot a handgun before when i first held a glock and i looked like i had been handling one for years the way everything was so obvious and accessable its just right.

1911 FOR ME feels horrible in my hands. i could make a better feeling pistol out of lego's. and i feel like i have to break my wrist to get the sights to line up its like a perfect right angle grip.

all personal preferance though... if you were born on glocks youll likely stay with them...same goes for 1911's

 

[flascot007]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

Glock hands down and I like the 1911. But I have too many great experiences with the Glock and know it will go bang if it inadvertently gets dropped and hits hard. The 1911 might have an issue after this event. They are just too finicky for me. I shot one in IPSC for years and loved it. But the Glock 21 or 30 are all I have carried on duty and to this day since they came out.

 

[Glock45]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

Geeez, I didn't expect this to be sooooooo nearly 50/50!!

Our SWAT team (I'm not on the team) carries their duty pistols, which are Glocks, but NOT same make. Most are 9's, some .40's, maybe 2 .45's. I agree with one of the posters that a team should all have the same. In that "oh shit" situation, at least mags can be swapped out and such.


some of you strayed a bit with the round count caliber debate, which isn't what I wanted to start, as I'm sure all of us have had those battles a plenty!! But, it's a passionate topic to be sure. It's all good!

I don't think the 1911 is a bad pistol, but from a mechanical standpoint, as an armorer, I think the Glock makes a bit more sense. NOT because I think the 1911 breaks more, just from a "get it back into service" perspective.

Now, anyone that can at least kind of shoot, if I put them behind a 1911 it seems their group at 25yds shrinks by a few inches. i'd chalk that up to trigger.

My department requires us to have 8# on our Glocks, either by medium connector w/ NY1 OR "+" connector with coil 5# spring. I personally like the latter of the two. BUT. . . . if ya needed to take that hostage head shot from across a restaurant, or at high-risk stop distance, could that extra weight be *NOT* helpful? training and practice? perhaps.

I carry a G21SF for uniform, G30 for my plainclothes and G36 as BUG for uniform duty. My Dept's SWAT team has talked about the 1911's, but haven't. My county's Sheriff's office has the 1911 option for their SWAT operators.

I don't think either of them "suck", but I know 1911's cost more for any of them worthy of duty-carry. I wanted to know how any of you justified that to your managers, or your team even if you can individually purchase.


I always have found it amazing what some agencies are able to get for equipment, and others struggle just to get gas for their patrol cars!! Our latest sweet toy is a .338 lapua for one of the lead snipers. I was shocked that got through our management!!! buh-bye engine block on escape vehicle of bad-guy!!!!!!

thanks for your input everyone, and thanks for not slashing each others throats!

-G45

 

[300WSM]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

get rid of that nickel plated sissy pistol and get yerself a GLOCK

 

[Phylodog]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

Our department issues Glock 22, 23 & 27 pistols. They have been sold on the necessity of an 8lb trigger for years. I just went back to the firearms training unit and have a new Lieutenant and we both agreed that an 8lb trigger requirement is bullshit. I received fifty 5lb connectors from our Glock rep to test them last week.

So far I've run a quick test with half of the SWAT team and five members of my staff (a total of 24 shooters so far). Only one of them failed to show an improvement in their proficiency after having the 5lb connector installed.

The 8lb connectors weren't such a bad idea when departments were transitioning from revolvers to the Glock pistols but probably half of my 1750 member department has never fired a revolver so it is now a training issue rather than an equipment issue. We still have a few hold outs on the 8lb triggers but they didn't know what to say when I informed them that every personally owned Glock pistol (all 1000 of them) which is being brought to and trained with at our facility has a 5lb connector and no one has managed to unintentionally shot themselves or anyone else with one yet.

The 8lb connectors are a ridiculous handicap justified by those who don't have to carry a pistol as a requirement of their jobs.

 

[nw911guy]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Glock.Simple for me the Glock's stupid little lever plastic crappy safety thing is not a sure release for me after a draw.</div></div>

what safety do you speak of that is affecting your draw? </div></div>

Uh, more like the draw affecting the safety. If I'm not on the grip exactly right when I clear the holster, when I attempt to fire, I many times can't reach the trigger quite enough to hit the stupid trigger safety. Sucks when doing draw and fire drills. I spent enough time on it with a G19 that I decided I should ultimately stick to what works for me. Sometimes, it sucks having small hands. </div></div>

oh ok i thought you were saying there gun had issues.. but just a tip... the first step in a draw IS a good grip. if you dont achieve that youve already messed up. but if the gun dosent fit your hands when gripped properly its deffinatly not the pistol for you so like you said stick with what works. </div></div>

Oh you're not telling me anything I don't already know. Let's face it though, things don't always go right and for my hand there is 0 forgiveness from the glock, where even if it isn't bang on with the 1911 I can still get solid hits with proper sight picture and trigger squeeze.

Like many others however, I have to agree that for general rank and file LEOs, the Glock is a better option for reasons of cost, simplicity, reliability, and easy to swap parts.

 

[Tflhnd1]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

Hahaha,I love these debates, but good inputs.

For several reasons, COST, ease of REPAIR, the Glock wins and for any agency the money reasons as a result will win.

Glocks are easy to shoot, and easy to TRAIN on, thus costs go down. but in these cost savings there are hidden issues. Yes they are easy to repair. They have to because they break, and often when used well. I have had four slide rail shear off of the frames, (Handled well by Glock though). On the line, I have had to stop my training to repair a fellow operators weapon, (firing pin broken, recoil spring broken, trigger return spring broken, slide catch spring broken, polymer cross pin and locking block pins broken). It happens. Not good when your shooting on move, failure drills, etc. I can honestly say they do not go bang every time is yours is worked out.

As I believe Lonewolf stated...."Cheap 1911's suck!". So true. And that is a big downfall. There IS a slightly higher learning curve on the 1911 than a Glock, but nothing that should count it out.

For ME, I shoot the Glock because I have to for SWAT. Don't get me wrong, it is a good system, but it took me awhile to learn to drive it well, versus a Sig or 1911.

For ME, the 1911 ergonomics are better, fits my hand well, and has natural pointability for ME. The Glock does not.

ME:

Patrol duty: Glock 22
SWAT: Glock 22
Narcs: Glock 27

In Safe:

Springfield Armory LTWT Champ OP
Colt Gold Cup
Sig 245

Springfield PRO on order.

For the argument of all operators having to have the same mag system is damn archaic in my mind. At least on SWAT, the handgun is a secondary and defensive weapon, (Unless HK MK23 is your game). Primary weapons , (rifles/long guns) should be the same, and since most use an AR platform of some sort, not an issue. So if I go through my 3-6 30 round 5.56 mags, and transition to handgun, go through 3 15rd .40 cal mags and relying on my buddy to hand me one of his, I'M IN THE WRONG F'ING FIGHT AND SHOULD HAVE TACTICALLY DONE SOMETHING ELSE. SERIOUSLY!!!!

Both systems have their merit. As also being an instructor, I am a fan of a shooter having a platform that FITS them well, is of obvious quality (and I would say Glocks are), and the shooter can perform proficiently with it.

That is my nickel, I didn't have two cents. And of course, YMMV. Jeff

 

[HoustonPdLt]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

When I grab my glock, shove it in my pants and run to the store I've got 16 rounds vs. 8. That's why. 1911's are cool as crap, but 16 beats 8 every time.

Lt.

 

[Guest]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HoustonPdLt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I grab my glock, shove it in my pants and run to the store I've got 16 rounds vs. 8. That's why. 1911's are cool as crap, but 16 beats 8 every time.

Lt. </div></div>

Know a guy that was carrying a 32 acp that killed a guy that was spraying a Mac-10. It's about hitting your target first, not what your carrying or how much it holds.

 

[fasteddie565]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HoustonPdLt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I grab my glock, shove it in my pants and run to the store I've got 16 rounds vs. 8. That's why. 1911's are cool as crap, but 16 beats 8 every time.

Lt. </div></div>

Know a guy that was carrying a 32 acp that killed a guy that was spraying a Mac-10. It's about hitting your target first, not what your carrying or how much it holds. </div></div>

Gunfighter,

You open up a whole new side of this discussion that actually brings us right back to the same place.

Carrying and fighting with a weapon with which you are comfortable is critical in having confidence in a fight. Having confidence is critical in maintaining situational awareness and following your training. If the entire time you train, you are worried about whether or not your weapon will fire properly, that will carry over into the fight.

While both guns have pros and cons, just like shoes, we, the ones wearing them, have to make the decision which ones best suit our needs. That helps build confidence in training as well as on the street.

I agree wholeheartedly that a discharged bullet has no birthrights, there is however a lot that goes into the PROPER discharging of that bullet of which confidence in the weapon plays a big role. IMHO

 

[JFCisme]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I'll take the military side, I'm even in the desert, Thank goodness for satellites!

The 1911 is a historically important firearm. It proved that the 45 acp is a timeless man stopper. But the 191l came out 100 years ago. Better platforms have evolved from the 1911. I carry an HK USP Tactical and in another 100 years there will be something better than that.

My 2 cents,

JFCisme

 

[sw99]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I toss in my two cents...

I have carried several 1911's over the past several years. Kimber, S&W 1911's, Sig 1911, and a Colt 1991A1 1911. I have also carried several Glocks as well (21, 21SF, 22, 17, 19, 23, 27, 26, 30). I have more problems with 1911's than I care to think about. It got to the point where I find myself always going back to the Glock. It's to the point where I would not even consider trusting my life to one. Yes, it has it's history which I love, but there is a fine line here. For SWAT/LE/Military, i truly believe that the Glock is the way to go.


It's a fine blend of balance that all comes together for a working man's gun, a tool if you will. Durability, simplicity, accuracy. What more could you ask for in a combat handgun.

In our busy modern day society, I have no time to fit, fluff and buff my gun to make it work. I also don't like having to worry about what ammo I am going to practice with because it may FTF in my 1911 because of the feed ramp...

If the poo hits the fan, and I am transitioning to my sidearm from my long gun, I know that my Glock will work. I have a healthy amount of ammunition for the task and I wont have to do unnecessary magazine exchanges.

 

[Guest]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I use to be all 1911a1, then I picked up a G-27 for everyday carry. Thought I had everything down until, one day I pulled the 27 at the range and tried to flip off the safety thinking it was the 1911. I made a choice that day and now own no 1911's. All the Glock's I now own all operate the same. Nothing to think about or re-learn between the 21, 35 or 27 but sights and pull/bang.

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

Military wise...

Unless you are in a "special" unit, you really don't get that much of a choice in your sidearm.

It quite simply ends up being what is comfortable for you.

Yes some have glocks and rightfully laud its reliability. But others complain about how slick the grips get when wet with water, sweat, blood, etc.

Some love the 1911, and it is reliable, nice, and running strong. Others bring it down and say it's too old and outdated, too many parts(I've heard that ONCE), etc.

Its a very funny thing when you ask a question like "Which pistol is best?".

I'm honestly surprised that nobody has talked about the merits of a Colt Single Action Army, or a Detective Special!

You could honestly go for a century of discussion and end up at the same conclusion...

User Preferance.

 

[dbateman]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

This a bit O.T

O.K so somthing that keep's popping up is "in this modern age we don't have time to train"

To me shooting is a life skill and need's to maintained no matter weather you are
useing a Glock , 1911 wheel gun it dose not matter we need to train.

The same as we do with our rifle.

I hope that I never get into a situation where I need to call on my skill as a marksmen , but if I ever need it I know I'm better prepared than most.

Don't get me wrong I still have a lot to learn I am not clamming to good I know
there are a lot of people better than me more than a few on this Forum.


For me it is pretty hard to get to the range as well I work a rotating roster
but I usually get to the range every week, one week I shoot rifle and the next hand gun and some time's both

I guess I am just saying people seem to me to be neglecting an essential life
skill .

Sorry it's probably not the right spot for this but ....

.Dave

 

[nw911guy]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFCisme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll take the military side, I'm even in the desert, Thank goodness for satellites!

The 1911 is a historically important firearm. It proved that the 45 acp is a timeless man stopper. But the 191l came out 100 years ago. Better platforms have evolved from the 1911. I carry an HK USP Tactical and in another 100 years there will be something better than that.

My 2 cents,

JFCisme </div></div>

I'm going to have to respecfully disagree on any platforms being necessarily "better" than the 1911. Its not that the 1911 is 100 years old, its that the metallic cartridge it uses hasn't yet been replaced by something significantly more technologically advanced. Otherwise, we're arguing over bullets throwers and I would argue that where the throwers are concerned, the technology has essentially matured.

 

[Graham]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is absolutely no doubt that from an LE Perspective the Glock is the better choice.

Lawmen are not high-speed shooters. They spend a lot of time driving a car and settling arguments. Some may go weeks without ever drawing a firearm. Those guys need something that will shoot when they haven't oiled it and last month's dust bunnies are still in the barrel.

The armorer who maintains them may or may not be a shooter. He may just be the guy who pissed the Chief off the least that year. He needs to be able to grab a part out of the box, cram it in the pistol and have it back to 100% factory function without stoning, welding or fitting of any kind.

Cost IS a factor for any department. It shouldn't be, but it is. Cheap 1911's suck. That's all there is to it.

I AM a 1911 fan. I carry one off-duty (Colt Combat Commander). I carry a G21SF on duty and am glad that I do. It's not the most ergonomic. It's not the most accurate. It will go bang anytime I need and I can make headshots with it on the move from reasonable distances. It just plain works.

If everyone on our department was scoring 100% on our qual and had the chance to shoot weekly AND we could have a skilled 1911 smith on staff, then my choice might be different. However few departments have that luxury. </div></div>Nothing there I disagree with. Well said.

 

[hpic55]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I guess I'll chime in here FWIW.

I have to agree that the Glock is a good firearm for a department. We carry the 21SF with a TLR-1 for duty. The guns have a great track record and I have seen an improvement in scores over the G22's we came from. That is not to say anything about cal. or gun difference.

Many of the guys on our team carry the Glock, most of them being .40 cal. I carry a custom Caspian 1911 with the light rail. The gun has performed along side the Glock’s and it has yet to embarrass me. Most of the guys on the team accuse me of cheating when they shoot my 1911 as the thing is a laser and has a great trigger. Having said that, there are some guys who cant hit shit with it. Why? Because they don’t train with it.

Now the 1911 did cost about 3.5 times the cost of a Glock but I will say that if I have to make a shot count, with my secondary, I have all the faith in the world when I put pressure on my trigger.

So to sum my point up, the Glock is the better gun for a department and the typical LE shooter. If you are someone who trains and loves to shoot and or is an operator then spend the cash for a good 1911 and train with it.


Semper Fi
1*

 

[Downzero]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

For me, it's a no brainer. I shoot a single action faster and more accurately than any striker fired gun. I am faster with a .40 caliber 2011 than even a 9mm striker fired gun.

Officers, or anybody for that matter, should carry the gun that they can drive the best. I wouldn't run a race in shitty shoes, I wouldn't race around a track in a car with an engine half the size allowed by whatever class I was in, and I don't trust my life to a gun that the timer says will take me more time to put into use quickly.

For years, so-called "experts" have told departments that they should carry one handgun, for various reasons, the most compelling of which is that they can share magazines in a firefight.

To me no issue overcomes the fact that the gun that you can drive faster and more accurately is objectively superior for that individual. For me, that gun is a 1911 variant. For others, including some pro shooters who could kick my ass all day long, the answer is a striker fired gun.

When milliseconds count, I know what I'm going to want in my hand.

Is my philosophy different than may instructors and experts? Maybe. It works for me. It seems that the variable that is most difficult to control is the shooter. I think the shooter needs every advantage he can get. Others spend forever talking about ammo, mechanical accuracy, trigger weight, etc.

I think the only thing that matters is the shooter and the timer. Others feel differently.

BTW: that's also why I carry a 9mm.

 

[Graham]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...When milliseconds count, I know what I'm going to want in my hand.

Is my philosophy different than may instructors and experts? Maybe. It works for me. It seems that the variable that is most difficult to control is the shooter. I think the shooter needs every advantage he can get. Others spend forever talking about ammo, mechanical accuracy, trigger weight, etc.

I think the only thing that matters is the shooter and the timer. Others feel differently.</div></div>I agree that, assuming serviceable arms, the main variables in a gunfight are the participants. However, and even in a match, I've never had milliseconds count because neither is scored on the split between shots. When you say "It works for me", on what is your conclusion based?

 

[Downzero]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...When milliseconds count, I know what I'm going to want in my hand.

Is my philosophy different than may instructors and experts? Maybe. It works for me. It seems that the variable that is most difficult to control is the shooter. I think the shooter needs every advantage he can get. Others spend forever talking about ammo, mechanical accuracy, trigger weight, etc.

I think the only thing that matters is the shooter and the timer. Others feel differently.</div></div>I agree that, assuming serviceable arms, the main variables in a gunfight are the participants. However, and even in a match, I've never had milliseconds count because neither is scored on the split between shots. When you say "It works for me", on what is your conclusion based?
</div></div>

I'm not talking about splits. I'm talking about overall time.

If I have to draw and fire, say, 8 shots, I'm just faster with a single action. As I stated before, I'm even faster with a major PF single action than I am with my M&P9.

 

[Schlafftablett]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I think the 1911 is a great gun for what it is and if it's used to play to its strengths. For SWAT, SF, CCW holders it may fit the bill to a "T" but for general issue it's always going to be the Glock. All of the reasons have been enumerated already and I really don't think there's a lot of dissention on any of the points presented thus far so I’m not going to add more to that end of the conversation.

That said, I get SOOOO tired of hearing guys tell me about how much better they shoot with a 1911 than a Glock or a M9. PLEASE! I'm the armorer and range master and I see how they shoot and how they take care of their guns. Of the several hundred guys we have there are maybe 10 or 15 that MIGHT benefit from a better trigger/grip etc. Bottom line is that if you can shoot then WHAT you shoot really doesn't matter all that much. Personally I can shoot almost any gun you put in my hands to about the same level (not that I'm all that impressive or anything

but still). As was stated earlier, they are tools and it's the mechanic not the wrench.

 

[KeithR41]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I have both. I carried a G22 on duty for my first 5 years. I've now carried a S&W 1911PD for the last 2.5. I switched to the 1911 because I wanted to carry a .45 but the G21 is to big for my hands. I still carry a G27 off duty because I spend too much money on rifles and scopes to afford a [Quality] compact 1911.

I recently held the M&P .45 and I really liked it, might just switch again.

41

 

[Double-edged]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

Love the points of view and opinions. It's sorta funny to see people who are professional armorers and such who are NOT familiar with a 1911 except through what they've heard online and in gunshop anecdotes. It's also funny to hear that a 1911 is an "expert's gun". Remember that Jeff Cooper, who spent a considerable amount of time on the issue, thought that the 1911 was the best gun not because it took an expert to use but because it was the simplest gun to shoot easily.

I shoot 1911's and Glocks with equal relish. I probably prefer a 1911 because of the trigger but my Glocks have awesome triggers, too, at least after I've done what I do to them. For LEO's? Yeah, there's really no question that the average copy doesn't need something that will corrode without care but that's about the only reason to differentiate. 1911's are NOT "maintenance-intensive" in general. That's something that's come about recently as people have monkeyed with the basic design. Keep in mind that it was the standard military sidearm for 70 years and it did NOT acquire a reputation as a maintenance hog during that time.

 

[huntin1]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

Officers, or anybody for that matter, should carry the gun that they can drive the best.

+1, I have been an LE firearms instructor since 1991 and I preach this constantly. And for this reason I don't like department issued firearms, unless the officer is free to choose from several different makes. Glocks may be fine weapons, if you shoot it well, great. To me they feel like a piece of 2x4 in my hand, and the trigger sucks. I like my Sigs a whole lot better, and I shoot them better.

For years, so-called "experts" have told departments that they should carry one handgun, for various reasons, the most compelling of which is that they can share magazines in a firefight.

I can't count the number of times I've heard this. Here is my response, If we are in that kind of fight and you burn through your ammo, better dig yourself a hole, cause I ain't giving you any of mine, I need it.

Selfish, I know.


And yes, in my opinion this all applies to swat teams as well. Choose the handgun that fits you best.


Rob Opp

 

[nw911guy]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Schlafftablett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That said, I get SOOOO tired of hearing guys tell me about how much better they shoot with a 1911 than a Glock or a M9. PLEASE! I'm the armorer and range master and I see how they shoot and how they take care of their guns. </div></div>

The M9 is probably not the best example of the point you're trying to make. Hard for anyone with a small hand to maintain a proper firing grip and reach the trigger at the same time. lol

But I do get your point. When I used to manage an indoor firing range, all the time people would bring targets out and look at me and say, "didn't I do great?" I didn't have the heart to be a dick about it. But truthfully, their targets looked like they'd been peppered with #4 buck at about 15yds.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I will preface this by stating I am a retired LEO and worked as a POST Firearms Instructor. We were issued the G22 in 1998, in 1997 we made the transition to the G22 40 S&W from the "Carry whatever you want from this approved list" concept. At the time of the transition we were between the G22 and the S&W counterpart. From a contractual basis, Glock won the bid. I would also be remiss to say I was not a Glock enthusiast, my personal opinion when we went through the process was "Great a toy gun, it probably has Hasbro written on it!"

As an academy instructor, most LEO recruits either never held a firearm, had very little experiance, or had a lot of experience with too many bad habits. As a weapon of choice for durability, ease of training, easy acclaimation, and redundancy it would be the Glock. Remember we are talking about government bureaucracies, so if its cheaper to operate, maintain parts, and train personnel, its a win, win. I personally believe the 1911 is a great platform, however its tempermental, has a higher degree of maintenance required, and requires a greater degree of initial training for the uninitiated, not to mention the departmental investment is greater. It is also not the best gun to put in the hands of a fresh recruit who has never handled a firearm before. I hate to say it but K.I.S.S. is crucial with law enforcement. Though I do agree with DZ that you should carry what you drive best, I also believe the needs of the many outway the one. For the department, having a solitary sidearm issued is a better way to spend lean tax revenues for needed equipment. Less parts to maintain, less money spent in training, and a reduction in vicarious liability. Though I agree the whole magazine arguement was really overdone. Regarding the NY1, there is so much documentation behind it from a legal aspect its a no brainer for departments.

I have seen the full gambit of conditions of Glocks brought in for in-service; from never cleaned to the finish being scrubbed off. If you want something absolutely destroyed don't call the Marines, give it to a cop to maintain. Case in point, I had a female sergeant bring in her personal G27 for in-service, when she dissassembled it, the internals were completely blue. Yes blue, she would carry it during UC work in her back pocket, and the gun was completely dry and caked in blue denim lint from her jeans. A years worth of lint, since by her own admission, she hadn't cleaned it since she qualified the previous year. It fired flawlessly.

I submit for your viewing pleaseure below, my personal G22 that I purchased new in late 1997 through my Department. It is all original, except for the Meprolights. I just replaced them last month because they finally went dead. For those Glock aficionados its serial begins with CPT.

The above pistol has been my personal test gun, it has 30,000 rounds through it, and still shoots 3-4" groups at 25 yards. Though recomended part replacements could be done, it doesn't need it.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Regarding the NY1, there is so much documentation behind it from a legal aspect its a no brainer for departments.
</div></div>

I intend to change that unless someone convinces me it's a bad idea to allow our officers to carry the same 5.5lb connector in their duty gun that they're already carrying in their personal guns. The same connector that every Glock in every gun store in this country came from the factory with.

 

[Graham]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I'm still getting over the fact that he found a Glock accurate enough to shoot 3-4" groups at 25 yards.

Seriously, though, no one needs a NY trigger in a Glock to cut down on some sort of phantom 'liability': Your finger should not be on the trigger unless the facts and circumstannces indicate that deadly force is necessary.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Regarding the NY1, there is so much documentation behind it from a legal aspect its a no brainer for departments.
</div></div>

I intend to change that unless someone convinces me it's a bad idea to allow our officers to carry the same 5.5lb connector in their duty gun that they're already carrying in their personal guns. The same connector that every Glock in every gun store in this country came from the factory with. </div></div>

Good luck, that is an uphill battles with many years of documentation

 

[Phylodog]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Seriously, though, no one needs a NY trigger in a Glock to cut down on some sort of phantom 'liability': Your finger should not be on the trigger unless the facts and circumstannces indicate that deadly force is necessary. </div></div>

You would be absolutely amazed at the resistance I am getting to that very idea. A combined total of 70 years of firearms training experience telling me we need 8lb triggers for the past week. Not one of them has provided a reason why.

I see it as an unnecessary handicap preventing our officers from performing as well as they could. I have been testing 5lb connectors for the past week. So far out of twenty six shooters, two have failed to show improvement when a 5lb was installed and one of them simply failed to have any misses on both tests. We have numerous officers every year who fail their first attempt at qualification with their duty guns yet have no problems passing the same course of fire with their personal, 5lb trigger equipped pistols.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Good luck, that is an uphill battles with many years of documentation </div></div>

If you've got access to any of it I'd love to get copies.