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Question of the Day - WHY Zero at 100yards
- Thread starter GunnyUSMC
- Start date
Mike is getting roasted tonight and doesn't even know it.
Don't be like Mike.
Don't be like Mike.
Hey guys. Mike here. Stop roasting me. Well known that if you shoot hollow points then 168s are better sleepers. 175s are fitful. At 140 yards they wake up but doze again at 220.
As a Palma enthusiast, I shoot the 155s. Do they have any sleep patterns I should be aware of?
They have apnea. Brief nap but sometimes they don’t wake up and you worry they have died.
"Mike went on to share that with today's bullets and advanced ballistics that goes into making them, many of those bullets do not stabilize until after 100yards. For that reason, he said he gets tighter groups at 200 vs 100 yards so that is where he sets his zero."
Oh look, the old 303 Brit bullshit has resurfaced with a new look.
The short answer is zero the fucking gun wherever you want. There's no law saying you have to use 100 yards.
The long answer is because its easy, in multiple aspects.
- Getting a good/accurate zero at 100 is a a lot easier than at 400, 500, etc because of the downrange wind variable, un-trued BC variable and a bunch of other random things that can have you chasing your ass.
- 99.99% of shit you'll shoot will be > 100 yards, so just dial or hold up. You're focused on 1 direction to adjust to. Done. Re-set/zero stop and rinse/repeat.
- If you want to do a far zero, do what I call a target zero. If you think most of the stuff that you'll be shooting at will be in and around a certain distance, find out what that adjustment is and dial it. Then make small holds off of it. For example, you may have to engage multiple targets at around 550 yards. Your 550 adjustment for your 100y zero is 2.2mil. Dial 2.2 and notate on your range card what the small holds off of 2.2 are as well as a 10mph full value wind for the total distance.
You need to just break up with Mike.
Come to Utah. Bring money. I'll change your life.
Oh look, the old 303 Brit bullshit has resurfaced with a new look.
The short answer is zero the fucking gun wherever you want. There's no law saying you have to use 100 yards.
The long answer is because its easy, in multiple aspects.
- Getting a good/accurate zero at 100 is a a lot easier than at 400, 500, etc because of the downrange wind variable, un-trued BC variable and a bunch of other random things that can have you chasing your ass.
- 99.99% of shit you'll shoot will be > 100 yards, so just dial or hold up. You're focused on 1 direction to adjust to. Done. Re-set/zero stop and rinse/repeat.
- If you want to do a far zero, do what I call a target zero. If you think most of the stuff that you'll be shooting at will be in and around a certain distance, find out what that adjustment is and dial it. Then make small holds off of it. For example, you may have to engage multiple targets at around 550 yards. Your 550 adjustment for your 100y zero is 2.2mil. Dial 2.2 and notate on your range card what the small holds off of 2.2 are as well as a 10mph full value wind for the total distance.
You need to just break up with Mike.
Come to Utah. Bring money. I'll change your life.
I do the same with my 280 Ackley but differently. I zero my rifle at 100 yards then when I hunt I check my dope for the day’s environmentals and dial to 300. I am now effectively zeroed at 300 for the days environmentals. That is my walking around zero for the day. That said, I almost always dial my actual dope for a shot anyway.
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What Max said.
I do that hunting in open areas of Eastern WA, zero at 100 and change the drop for 200 in the field.
And I dial if I have time.
I do that hunting in open areas of Eastern WA, zero at 100 and change the drop for 200 in the field.
And I dial if I have time.
@sirhrmechanic
Here you go P.
You can use this next time and it'll cut down on at least two, maybe three people wondering if it's sarcasm or not...
Just swinging by to say that whoever is pushing “bullets aren’t stable until X distance” is fucking retarded. Has no one ever seen a slow mo video of a bullet leaving the muzzle or on ballistics gel? If you “instructor” is saying that, please for the love of all that is holy, do not waste your time with them.
Mike's target at 99yds?
And then the green marked indications at 200?
And then the green marked indications at 200?
My bullets are always sleepy. And often a bit drunk!
But some are big medicine!
Sirhr
So ... @GunnyUSMC ... did you ever think this would get to a second page?
Nawwww.....
You guys are brutal. I am relatively new to the sport and wasnt trying to throw anyone under the bus. I heard something that I had not heard before and just wanted to understand better as part of my never ending quest to continually learn and grow in the sport.
This thread has been a learning experience for sure.
It provided a lot of entertainment and the guy doesn't know we're laughing about him so no harm done really. The site owner has even made a couple joke videos on people you see doing long range instruction.
I get where Mike’s coming from…hell, if I’m going LONG, say out to 2700 yards, I zero at 1500 yards so I can dial my elevations without using hold-overs.
The only way this works/ makes a difference is if you have the ability to cant the scope to zero at that distance, like a different rail or era-tac base etc. otherwise you are still using up the elevation in the scope to dial to that distance
Exactly this. It’s the point I’ve been trying to get across that is being missed. If you can zero at 1500 and then dial to 2700 yards, then you have changed something to allow the scope to do that. If you do not have to change anything in order to do that (rail, rings or mount) then it doesn’t fucking matter. SMDH
Maybe I’m missing something but if you zero at 1000, even without special equipment, you no longer have to spin through the first 8~ish mils to shoot an 1100 yard target. You don’t get any more total up from your turrets but you don’t have to dial as far either….right? So if you needed to make no-dial shots beyond 1000, it makes sense to zero at 1000 and hold over a few mils instead of zeroing at 100 and having to hold over what could easily become more than ten mils.
Okay…give me an example of when this would be required that you would take the trouble to actually zero at 1000 yards? I’m interested. Why would one not just dial the requisite 1000 yards up front and then hold the additional 100?
And we have a winner!!! My primary zero is at 100 but by dialing the maximum cant setting on the Era-Tac, it creates a secondary zero at 1500 yards allowing me to dial to 2700 yards which is all the elevation my scope can give me…anything farther is TARAC time
No such example. Just a thought. If you had a match with no targets under 600, you could theoretically zero at 600 and maybe save yourself from accidentally leaving a rev on the dial, for example. I dont know. I’ve always just zeroed at 100 but there might be some not-unreasonable situations for a different zero. There was just a two day match in Wyoming with the nearest target at around 650 and the farthest out past 2300. There was plenty of time to pre-dial the first target so it didnt really matter but a 600 yard zero would have worked all weekend too.
I can understand what this "Mike" guy meant only to say that at 200yds you can hold a similar POA dot and manage to get your groups smaller in MOA terms since wind isn't REALLY effecting path yet...
BUT
I completely disagree with the reason having anything to do with spin I say its to do with optics. That said, we are talking prone shooting which is [...]. Once you get off your belly if you can maintain a 1MOA group we all know thats an amazing standard so could give 2 shits about anything better than that for positional.
#400yd
BUT
I completely disagree with the reason having anything to do with spin I say its to do with optics. That said, we are talking prone shooting which is [...]. Once you get off your belly if you can maintain a 1MOA group we all know thats an amazing standard so could give 2 shits about anything better than that for positional.
#400yd
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A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, this old grunt purchased a box of .224 90 grain Sierra MatchKings to shoot in my XP-100 that was chambered in .221 Fireball. It was a full custom with an HS Precision stock and a 1-7 twist barrel. For those who know, the 90 grain Sierra required a twist of 1-6.5 and the Fireball cartridge in its best day was Never Ever gonna push that bullet with enough velocity to overcome this difference (even with a 15 inch barrel)
So, I shot it paper at 50 yards and the holes through the paper….hold on….were slightly oval shaped. Meaning that the bullet was not stabilizing, (Imagine that)
So, for fun, I shot it the swinger Ram I had at 200 meters. The real surprise, all five rounds hit and the grouping was not so bad. Nothing like what that handgun shot with 69 grain MatchKings or 80 Grain Berger VLD’s (which were already really pushing the envelope of what that little case could “push.”)
never could figure that anomaly out. Of course this was shooting Creedmoor and grouping was never going to be PRS rifle perfect, but it did not make sense. What did make sense is that the 80 Bergers worked pretty good enough and that’s where I stayed.
So, I shot it paper at 50 yards and the holes through the paper….hold on….were slightly oval shaped. Meaning that the bullet was not stabilizing, (Imagine that)
So, for fun, I shot it the swinger Ram I had at 200 meters. The real surprise, all five rounds hit and the grouping was not so bad. Nothing like what that handgun shot with 69 grain MatchKings or 80 Grain Berger VLD’s (which were already really pushing the envelope of what that little case could “push.”)
never could figure that anomaly out. Of course this was shooting Creedmoor and grouping was never going to be PRS rifle perfect, but it did not make sense. What did make sense is that the 80 Bergers worked pretty good enough and that’s where I stayed.
That’s actually understandable and explainable and not at all the same as groups getting better at distance than up close. Your situation is about excess yaw close in and there is a paper on here somewhere in resources (or was) that addresses this phenomenon.
The other is about actual group size and implies that groups will actually improve, which is not the same thing.
Now, it is very possible that Mike was trying to discuss the same thing as in your situation and maybe even likely. If so, he used the wrong explanation in an attempt to dumb it down for the students.
Here’s a link to the download of that article by Jim Boatright, at least I believe this is the one of Jim’s that discusses what you describe.
Hyper Stabilized Rifle Bullets - Jim Boatright
Correctly understanding how their fired bullets actually fly through the air can be advantageous for serious riflemen, especially those competing in Extreme Long-Range (ELR) matches. The obsolete idea that a rifle bullet flies through the air...
www.snipershide.com
Oh great! just great! I have to 100 yd z??
Got a CQB course with Mike coming up next week. Help pls
Got a CQB course with Mike coming up next week. Help pls
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Just zero at 1000 and hold under or dial down. Haven't you been paying attention?
You people are so short sighted! The latest Speer reloading manual gives the maximum range of each round. So, put your rifle at that angle, shoot your group and then your are good to go to whatever range your heart or match director desires you to shoot. Simple right.
Still have that bridge in London, England. Hasn’t sold yet and I got a really good price on the bridge. Call me.
Imagine if a Mike told you the "projectiles from 5.56 cartridge can't penetrate the human skull. The human skull is like helmet armor"...In addition, Mike, says this with a Fallujah/Ramadi Marine Vet as assistant instructor. (History lesson, those particular Marines were accused of executing the enemy due to all the head shots, turns out them devils just dialed in with their ACOGS and sand crickets were only exposing their heads to chirp before getting clapped)
I swear, I didn't make this up...like, who could?
I, literally, don't post on Benchrest anymore because I told one of the kingpins on the site that bullets going to sleep was bullshit. All those stupid, non-marksmen, fuggers dog piled me and said I should shut up because he knew what he was talking about and I didn't have enough posts to disagree with him. I linked to the Litz test proving stability at the muzzle deteriorated at range, and they spent the next five pages trying to internet-disprove his findings. No need to get any more information or advice from people that stupid and that unwilling to embrace the truth even if it goes against their gun mythos.
Their reloading tips are good, but they know nothing about shooting or marksmanship whatsoever. You may as well go on some other non-shooting fud chatroom for information/advice.
I’m not trying to make a joke or be funny, but bullets going to sleep? All those years of never missing a chicken at 50 meters, including half scale chickens (which I swear could duck) with bullets that were asleep.
what does a bullet do when it sleeps…snore…roll over and fall off of the bed, wear Star Wars jammies?
Trust me, in my day I was a fair shot, and these targets are not large, and these handguns are not shot from a bench, how can sleepy bullets, run true enough for me and many others to achieve International Class.
what does a bullet do when it sleeps…snore…roll over and fall off of the bed, wear Star Wars jammies?
Trust me, in my day I was a fair shot, and these targets are not large, and these handguns are not shot from a bench, how can sleepy bullets, run true enough for me and many others to achieve International Class.
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