Rifle Scopes Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

[Moadrifter]

Questions for LR/ELR shooters who have used the S&B PM II 5-25x56 &/or 3-20x50:

Just about to pull the trigger on an S&B PM II 5-25x56.

At distance I'm just about 20-20 with glasses.

Priorities:
(1) As much useful vertical holdover as possible with 0.5 mil increments for snap shots.
(2) Subtension dimensions that don't cover too much of the target at long range, but don't want to completely lose the reticles on 8X.

Based on looking at the reticles online, the P4L or P4L fein look good and the H2CMR and Klein look pretty good. Others have less holdover.

Which FFP reticle do you prefer and why?

The P4L and P4L fein jump from 0.05 mil reticle widths to 0.035 mil - which do you recommend?

Do the H2CMR and Klein also come in two subtension widths or just one?

If you have time to make a suggestion or observation, thanks in advance!

 

[jasonk]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

Not a fan of the fine, too thin for me at lower powers.

P4 is thicker than .05, more like .067 I think.

H2CMR and MSR I think I both .05. I like .05 as it's what's in my 2 S&Bs and the 3 SWFA SS 5-20's I own. I also have a P4 and would take that over the fine each and every time. The P4 isn't a concern at long distances, it's actually more of a pain when shooting tiny dots or thumbtacks at 100 yards. I was shooting a 30"x30" steel plate at 1715 yards a couple weekends ago with the P4, the reticle was great. If shooting farther then your targets will be large enough that the reticle subtension won't matter that much.

I haven't used the Klein yet so can't comment. You really can't go wrong with the P4, H2CMR or the MSR. Just pick the one that you think looks best. If you plan to range with the reticle much, then look more at the MSR and H2CMR for sure.

 

[Moadrifter]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not a fan of the fine, too thin for me at lower powers.

P4 is thicker than .05, more like .067 I think.

H2CMR and MSR I think I both .05. I like .05 as it's what's in my 2 S&Bs and the 3 SWFA SS 5-20's I own. I also have a P4 and would take that over the fine each and every time. The P4 isn't a concern at long distances, it's actually more of a pain when shooting tiny dots or thumbtacks at 100 yards. I was shooting a 30"x30" steel plate at 1715 yards a couple weekends ago with the P4, the reticle was great. If shooting farther then your targets will be large enough that the reticle subtension won't matter that much.

I haven't used the Klein yet so can't comment. You really can't go wrong with the P4, H2CMR or the MSR. Just pick the one that you think looks best. If you plan to range with the reticle much, then look more at the MSR and H2CMR for sure. </div></div>

Thanks jasonk!

 

[Moadrifter]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not a fan of the fine, too thin for me at lower powers.

You really can't go wrong with the P4, H2CMR or the MSR. </div></div>

S&B website doesn't show the MSR as an option for this scope. Can you order it?

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

I really, really like the horizontal subtensions on the H2CMR. Its about the right thickness for all round shooting.

 

[6XC]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moadrifter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
S&B website doesn't show the MSR as an option for this scope. Can you order it? </div></div>

Yes..

http://www.eurooptic.com/schmidt-bender-pmii-5-25x56-msr-mrad-dt-cw.aspx
http://www.eurooptic.com/schmidt-bender-pmii-5-25x56-msr-mrad-dt-ccw.aspx

http://www.cstactical.com/Rifle-Scopes/Schmidt-Bender/Schmidt-Bender-PMII-5-25x56/LP-Illum.html

 

[Rob01]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

The H2CMR and P4F have the same line thickness. The P4 is too thick in that scope in my opinion. The MSR is thicker than the P4F but not as thick as the P4. Some like it but for the extra money it costs I don't see the advantage over the H2CMR which also has the break downs into .1 mils like the MSR has on the "L" in the lower left quadrant.

I have been using the H2CMR in my 5-25 for over a year at matches and really like it alot. It would be my choice in that scope.

 

[Jeeprider]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The H2CMR and P4F have the same line thickness. The P4 is too thick in that scope in my opinion. The MSR is thicker than the P4F but not as thick as the P4. Some like it but for the extra money it costs I don't see the advantage over the H2CMR which also has the break downs into .1 mils like the MSR has on the "L" in the lower left quadrant.

I have been using the H2CMR in my 5-25 for over a year at matches and really like it alot. It would be my choice in that scope. </div></div>

Agree with Rob01 I own both a 3-20 with the P4F and a 5-25 with the H2CMR. I love both reticles. For shooting steel I prefer the H2CMR, but if I'm hunting game the P4F is my preferred reticle.

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

H2CMR. Slightly thinner than the MSR. Doesn't cloud FOV like the MSR. Still gives the ability to range to 0.1 mil. Gives a wind hold inside of 0-1.0 mil where the P4F doesn't. Seriously doubt you'll ever dial windage with a H2CMR.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

My bad on the H2CMR, sorry, thought they were both the same.

Again, I'd just pick the one you like and rock on, both will serve you well. Heck, get one of each, problem solved.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

In stock....

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3449619#Post3449619

 

[Jerry R]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

Rob is right, the H2CMR and the P4fine both subtend .035 MRAD or 3.5mm in the 5-25. The MSR subtends .05 MRAD and the P4 subtends .07 MRAD.
For some reason unknown to me the H2CMR in the 3-20 was made slightly thicker and looks to me to be somewhere between .05 and .07 MRAD but I haven't had the opportunity to measure one yet to determine the exact thickness. I asked a few people about this and was unable to get an explanation. I am only assuming this was done to increase reticle visibility on lower power. However, the P4fine in the 3-20 remains the same thickness as in the 5-25.

 

[Moadrifter]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerry R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rob is right, the H2CMR and the P4fine both subtend .035 MRAD or 3.5mm in the 5-25. The MSR subtends .05 MRAD and the P4 subtends .07 MRAD.
For some reason unknown to me the H2CMR in the 3-20 was made slightly thicker and looks to me to be somewhere between .05 and .07 MRAD but I haven't had the opportunity to measure one yet to determine the exact thickness. I asked a few people about this and was unable to get an explanation. I am only assuming this was done to increase reticle visibility on lower power. However, the P4fine in the 3-20 remains the same thickness as in the 5-25. </div></div>

Thanks. Can you point to or provide a good PDF or decent resolution image with the H2CMR subtensions? There is a good PDF for P4Lf on the S&B website but nothing on the H2CMR. The images I can find on the Hide or web are poor resolution that don't do justice to the reticle.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

I think the Klein is the best reticle S&B has, and been using them since early 2000s,

I use the P4 (thicker) and I have no issue with it, I can get sub moa accuracy.

Recently I got an MSR and it's pretty good if you like the P4 style and want to bridge the GAP between the P4 and P4F, I don't find it any busier than any other reticle.

 

[Jerry R]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moadrifter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Thanks. Can you point to or provide a good PDF or decent resolution image with the H2CMR subtensions? There is a good PDF for P4Lf on the S&B website but nothing on the H2CMR. The images I can find on the Hide or web are poor resolution that don't do justice to the reticle. </div></div>

I have not seen nor do I have a good PDF on the H2CMR or anything that actually shows reticle subtensions. The measurements I have I obtained from the engineering drawing which shows the actual measurements on the reticle substrate used for production purposes.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

Moadrifter here is a thread where I posted some pics of the P4F and H2CMR

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3176374

 

[Moadrifter]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Moadrifter here is a thread where I posted some pics of the P4F and H2CMR

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3176374 </div></div>

Awesome! Really helpful thanks. The pic of the H2CMR gives a way better feel than the low res web postings out there. Pic shows what Brandon05_88 and tylerw02 said - great windage marks inside of +/- 1 mil that don't get in the way at all.

The P4F has half-mil holdover marks out past 10+ mils (>500yds snap shots with 338 LM). It looks like the H2CMR goes to full mil marks after 5 mil (~350 yards snap shots). Trying to figure out if this will be an issue while hunting - estimating in a hurry with half mil marks vs full mil probably would only cost a couple tenths max - might even be easier because there is less "counting" to do and less chance of mistaking one bar for another in a rush.

For hunting where you usually get one shot and target clarity against tough color/contrast backgrounds is important, I can see why Jeeprider likes the P4F - zero clutter for +/- 1 mil and a really clean/thin reticle. But the tradeoff is no windage marks inside a mil so you either need to estimate more accurately or dial if windage is less than a mil. The extra windage marks and the extra half-mil mark on the vertical seem better for fast LR follow up corrections too.

The P4F looks like it just illuminates the +/- 1 mil cross hair - is this correct? The H2CMR seems to have +/- 5 mil reticle illumination - correct? Hmmm... pluses and minuses for both.

So far the only thing I can find with "maybe" delivery in 2 weeks (vs 10-20) is the P4F...

 

[Rob01]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

Think you are mistaken mils and moa. 10 mils should get you to around 1000 yards and 5 mils would be about 700 or so. Are you going to be making 700 yard snap shots on game? You can also dial on an intermediate range and use hold overs and undersea if you need more of the reticle.

Anything the P4F can do the H2CMR can do. You do get full reticle illumination out to the heavy duplex as well which would help hunting in darker terrain.

There is only preceived clutter. After using it you will see that is not a concern.

 

[Moadrifter]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Think you are mistaken mils and moa. 10 mils should get you to around 1000 yards and 5 mils would be about 700 or so. Are you going to be making 700 yard snap shots on game? You can also dial on an intermediate range and use hold overs and undersea if you need more of the reticle.

Anything the P4F can do the H2CMR can do. You do get full reticle illumination out to the heavy duplex as well which would help hunting in darker terrain.

There is only preceived clutter. After using it you will see that is not a concern. </div></div>

My way bad!

Should have looked at the charts instead of thinking off the top of my head. Thanks! Agreed no-issue.

 

[Scotch_egg]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

Can any one point me in the direction of a reticle with a floating dot that I can have fitted to my PM11 a la MP8 dot?

 

[Moadrifter]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

Is there a good place to buy S&B that has some stock on 5-25s?

 

[Shoottothrill]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

I really like the MSR for width of the main cross hair, and for the ranging ability. There is a 5-25 MSR for sale right now in the optics for sale section. Go to FinnAccuracy.com and watch the video on how to use this reticule and you will be a believer. It may be on youtube as well. Awesome reticule.

 

[Moadrifter]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 78steeler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really like the MSR for width of the main cross hair, and for the ranging ability. There is a 5-25 MSR for sale right now in the optics for sale section. Go to FinnAccuracy.com and watch the video on how to use this reticule and you will be a believer. It may be on youtube as well. Awesome reticule. </div></div>

Very cool reticle - best ranging system I have seen.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

Sent you a pm moadrifter.

 

[Moadrifter]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

Found a few S&B retailers with 12-16 week lead time. If anyone knows a retailer with new S&B's with good reputation and shorter lead time, please let me know. Otherwise I will place an order with one of the options I have now and probably get another scope (likely Razor) to use until the S&B comes in - then use the second scope to replace a Leupold VX-3 on one of my Armalite AR-10s.

Thanks in advance if you can help out on a source for new in box S&B.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

Euro Optics usually has that stuff in Stock, contact them.

If not them, Mile High has a few S&Bs in stock.

 

[Opticsspecialist]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

we have some schmidt and bender scopes in stock

 

[Moadrifter]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Euro Optics usually has that stuff in Stock, contact them.

If not them, Mile High has a few S&Bs in stock. </div></div>

Thanks Lowlight! Deal done and paid for - H2CMR, CCW, no MTC, no later than end August - $3499 all in shipped and insured. With the extra time, I think I'll get an HS-precision stock and get a custom bedding and tuning - should be done about when the scope comes in. Will send some pics when it's all built.

Thanks very much for all the help everyone - awesome community of experts! I can't wait to shoot this new 338 LM with awesome glass

 

[Moadrifter]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Opticsspecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we have some schmidt and bender scopes in stock </div></div>

Nice to talk with you just now Jay - next time.

 

[evilcoon]

Re: Questions: S&B PMII 5-25/56 FFP Reticle

Tyler has spoken very highly of the H2CMR and has answered a lot of my questions in regards to that scope. Now where's that brown truck?

Jay was great as well. I bombarded him with questions!

 

[DropinLead]

I think the Klein is the best reticle S&B has, and been using them since early 2000s,

I use the P4 (thicker) and I have no issue with it, I can get sub moa accuracy.

Recently I got an MSR and it's pretty good if you like the P4 style and want to bridge the GAP between the P4 and P4F, I don't find it any busier than any other reticle.

Was thinking I like the p4 over the fine. When you say you get sub moa, can I ask at what magnification and range? I can see 12x at 200 yards but what about at higher power, the reticle seems to get thick. I was thinking my atacr was thick.

How thick is the P4L (thicker one) in inches at 1000 yds so I can come apples to apples.
I find in the online manual it states .24 in at 100 yds but they fail to mention at what power they reference that at.
Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[DropinLead]

Never mind, I messed it, manual does say .23" at 100 yds at 25x making 2.3" at 1000 yds.

 

[jtrax]

Questions for LR/ELR shooters who have used the S&B PM II 5-25x56 &/or 3-20x50:

Just about to pull the trigger on an S&B PM II 5-25x56.

At distance I'm just about 20-20 with glasses.

Priorities:
(1) As much useful vertical holdover as possible with 0.5 mil increments for snap shots.
(2) Subtension dimensions that don't cover too much of the target at long range, but don't want to completely lose the reticles on 8X.

Based on looking at the reticles online, the P4L or P4L fein look good and the H2CMR and Klein look pretty good. Others have less holdover.

Which FFP reticle do you prefer and why?

The P4L and P4L fein jump from 0.05 mil reticle widths to 0.035 mil - which do you recommend?

Do the H2CMR and Klein also come in two subtension widths or just one?

If you have time to make a suggestion or observation, thanks in advance!

If possible try to take a look at each of the reticles in person. I have S&B 5-25's in the reticles you are interested in. I sold a S&B 5-25 MSR because I could not get used to the thickness. I believe that the H2CMR may be one of the best reticles offered by Schmidt for a competitive shooter. Although I really like how clean the P4F is.

Much of this is subjective. You must like what you see when you put the scope to your eye.