Rifle Scopes Quick Tangent Theta turret comparison vs. nightforce atacr ... and a quick review

[Renomd]

@Covertnoob5 did a great write up on the TT525p http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/tangent-theta-vs-minox-zp5-5-25-review.6529754/

I'll give my impressions and a quick comparison video. hkdave also did a great video comparing a ton of high end scope turrets. Scopes I've owned:
-Schmidt Bender 5-25 PM II (TWO) , Ultra-short 5-20 H59 (TWO)
-Kahles K624i SKMR3
-Minox ZP5 MR4 5-24 (TWO)
-Vortex razor 5-20, Vortex Gen II razor 4.5-27, Vortex viper PST II 6-24 (my first "high end scope"... bad bad gateway to spending more money on the above scopes)
-Leupold Mark 5 5-25.
-US optics ER 5-25 h59

Scopes I currently own:
-Nightforce 7-35, nightforce 5-25 atacr F1
-Tangent Theta

It's only fair to not do a direct comparison to prior scopes (I'll try hard to not do that but everyone always wants to know your opinion on comparisons) that I sold and no longer own. I'll tell you though, that I sold all the above scopes as I completely fell in love with nightforce. For my eyes, I just saw EVERYTHING with the nightforce. It's amazing when you find that scope that does that to you. I mean everything... not sure if it's psychological or not; but, I even feel it does make me a better shooter in competitions (and it shows with my results). This is not to say all the above alpha glass didn't allow me to see... but to the scope snobs out there, you guys probably know what i'm talking about. When you find that scope, and it just aligns perfectly with your vision... not sure how else to really describe it.
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To fill the gaps for other reviews (and there aren't very many out there on the tangent theta b/c it's probably too expensive ... more on my rationale later on this), I'm focusing on points I feel put the Tangent Theta over the edge compared to nightforce, Schmidt, Vortex, Minox, Kahles....barely over the edge.

1) Parallax - Tangent stomps the competition... I'm not sure what they did in regards to optical engineering and glass coating; but, they figured out a way to negate or severely reduce parallax past about 250 yds or so. I read about it; but, when I actually used the scope. It's for real.... it's incredible. It's a tactical competitor's dream in fact. To not have to touch that parallax ever, to have the confidence that if you dropped a shot it's not b/c your parallax was off going from 800 yds to 350 yds in the same string/stage.

2) Glass clarity/brightness - I'm not an optics expert, just a guy who loves seeing clearly downrange. I will admit that I did have that wow "pop" with nightforce when I compared it to vortex and schmidt... I remember that feeling with Minox as well, and I kind of did with Kahles until I saw that horrible chromatic aberration (please keep your comments to yourselves on this subject it's been beat to death and I've pre-ordered a K525i to emphasize I'm not a biased hater). But when I looked into that Tangent theta for the first time, I had it again... and this was compared to both my 7-35 and 5-25 atacr (to each his own). I did not see chromatic aberration in any of the scopes I had for direct comparision; but, where I really really saw a difference after nearly an hour (total not straight in a row) of back and forth comparison was micro-contrast. To better explain this, it is the detail in the details. It's like looking at 1080p compared to blu-ray compared to 4k TV. Tangent blew me away.

3) Reticle choice - I've not been a big fan at all of the Gen2xr, I was strongly opposed to buying this scope for this reason; but, when the opportunity came knocking, I took it. I'll tell you what, I like the gen2xr, this is coming from someone who's favorite reticle is the MR4 or EBR-7B. I'm a big fan of the small center dot; but, man there is something about the simplicity and the thin nature of the Gen2xr. Would it be nice if the gen2xr had a center dot and an open center yes... (I hear there's another version coming out soon... this year).

4) Turret - Let's get down to why I'm doing this mini-review (or not so mini). I'll start by saying my elevation turret was slightly mis-aligned and it's obvious when you look at my video. The marking is slightly off from the arrow indicator... and yes I've tried realigning it using the instructions; but, if you don't own a tangent theta you won't know that doing this (like on other scopes ) is not that straightforward... and yes TT and armament (their distributor) already is aware. What separates the TT turrets from the other high end players, is the feel and appearance. It's large... like the size of the vortex gen2 and or minox. It feels good in the hand; but, the knurling is machined to feel comfortable, with just enough grip. The actual movement of the elevation turret I find to be just "ok". I find the windage turret to be "something special" in the words of a fellow optics reviewer. It's incredibly crisp, incredibly crisp...imagine the best feeling turret you've ever felt (I thought nightforce was it for my hands).... TT blows what you felt out of the water. Now I exaggerate a bit, the reality is we are splitting hairs, and it's all personal preference. The elevation turret of the TT feels similar to my schmidt's and kahles when it comes to actual movement, precise, basically no play, that dull "thunk" that says it moved confidently to the next setting.
The windage turret feels like this and more. The line spacings on the elevation turret are perfect, they aren't cramped like they are on the schmidt PM2 DT, or the minox zp5. Even with the 15 mils on the elevation turret, the diameter is perfect. Would it be nice if they were 10 mils per rev like the gen 2 and with adequate spacing like the gen 2 razor...yeah I think it would have been nice; but, not necessary.




The turrets do spin more easily on the nightforce atacr in comparison, which maybe a nice feature in tactical comps b/c I would rather dial, and I spin fast. I'll have more input the next time I shoot a local comp.
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Echoing covertnoob's sentiment, really the extra $1500 for this scope (actually its' more like extra $1000-1200 b/c retailers are discounting these FYI) is for the refined aspects and characteristics compared to the schmidt, minox, kahles, nightforce. The machining time that plays into the turrets, scope body, ocular adjustment etc. The design and engineering time behind it. For those of you whom are scope snobs, beware... buy once cry once is bullshit.

Hopefully this helps others make a decision on whether or not they want to blow $4k plus on a tangent theta. Also I found on several threads there is a lifetime forever warranty; but, I don't see that exact terminology in the manual or tangent's website (unless I'm blind). Armament states they "stand by" their products.

 

[918v]

Don’t you just love how the elevation turret clicks in between hash marks?

 

[kujuak]

Thanks for the write up! I am now looking for a scope for a new rifle. I am an old coot and shoot for fun , not competition. Have an AI/AT 308 with a Kahles K624i(SKMR3) which I am very pleased with. Getting an AX and am torn between waiting for the Tangent Theta with new reticle or K525i with SKMR3. I shoot out to 600-1000yds, leisurely. No Ninja fantasies, just enjoy fine tools. Your thought on voice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Renomd]

Thanks for the write up! I am now looking for a scope for a new rifle. I am an old coot and shoot for fun , not competition. Have an AI/AT 308 with a Kahles K624i(SKMR3) which I am very pleased with. Getting an AX and am torn between waiting for the Tangent Theta with new reticle or K525i with SKMR3. I shoot out to 600-1000yds, leisurely. No Ninja fantasies, just enjoy fine tools. Your thought on voice would be greatly appreciated.

I’m sure you will love the kahles, I talked t the guys at @CSTactical and I hear it’s amazing. I’m sure it will give the tangent a run for its money.... BUT if you have an AI platform and it’s a quick change you will love the tooless rezero.

Also if your someone who loves the best and obviously you can afford it if your buying an AX, go Tangent theta, I guarantee you will not regret it.

 

[CSTactical]

Thank you for your feedback, you have (and had) a great collection of high end scopes

 

[Renomd]

Thank you for your feedback, you have (and had) a great collection of high end scopes

Thanks to you guys, it's christmas in July! The Kahles k525i is stateside and coming to you then to me

 

[CSTactical]

Thanks to you guys, it's christmas in July! The Kahles k525i is stateside and coming to you then to me

You're very welcome! You'll need to let us know your impression when you get it

 

[Glassaholic]

Thank you for going through the effort and sharing Reno, greatly appreciate your time to do this to provide a benefit for the community. In regard to turrets, for me, most turrets get the job done; however, I must admit I have been impressed with how tactile and audible the Leupold Mark 5 turrets are, it sounds like TT is even more, so I understand why some rave over them. Makes me really curious how the new ZCO turrets will behave with their dual detents?

Don’t you just love how the elevation turret clicks in between hash marks?

I noticed that too 918, in the video the arrow on the elevation is aligned between 0 and 1 and not on 0, does TT have a way to reset the outer turret housing to align properly with the numbers?

 

[Black max]

Don’t you just love how the elevation turret clicks in between hash marks?

You must be seeing and hearing things, Orkan said that would keverbjappen on a TT...

 

[Renomd]

Thank you for going through the effort and sharing Reno, greatly appreciate your time to do this to provide a benefit for the community. In regard to turrets, for me, most turrets get the job done; however, I must admit I have been impressed with how tactile and audible the Leupold Mark 5 turrets are, it sounds like TT is even more, so I understand why some rave over them. Makes me really curious how the new ZCO turrets will behave with their dual detents?



I noticed that too 918, in the video the arrow on the elevation is aligned between 0 and 1 and not on 0, does TT have a way to reset the outer turret housing to align properly with the numbers?

Yeah for sure, I feel it's difficult for anyone to be able to get behind a variety of scopes, and it's not easy to just blindly throw money at a scope based on scant reviews and hype. I'm always happy to share my impressions.

Yeah I reached out to both TT and armament about the elevation turret marking not lining up. It's for sure a warranty issue in my mind. On the inside of the scope cap, it's obvious they don't want people messing with the turret mechanisms b/c there's adhesive on top of the screw almost similar to what timney does to prove whether or not someone tried messing with the mechanism to void a warranty. I hope it's an easy fix that I don't have to mail in but I'm almost positive it's not an easy one (or at least not one described in the manual).

I'll do a comparative review on the K525i when it comes in, in about a week and a half-2 weeks.

 

[Renomd]

You must be seeing and hearing things, Orkan said that would keverbjappen on a TT...

Oh boy.... haha

 

[Glassaholic]

Yeah for sure, I feel it's difficult for anyone to be able to get behind a variety of scopes, and it's not easy to just blindly throw money at a scope based on scant reviews and hype. I'm always happy to share my impressions.

Yeah I reached out to both TT and armament about the elevation turret marking not lining up. It's for sure a warranty issue in my mind. On the inside of the scope cap, it's obvious they don't want people messing with the turret mechanisms b/c there's adhesive on top of the screw almost similar to what timney does to prove whether or not someone tried messing with the mechanism to void a warranty. I hope it's an easy fix that I don't have to mail in but I'm almost positive it's not an easy one (or at least not one described in the manual).

I'll do a comparative review on the K525i when it comes in, in about a week and a half-2 weeks.

Surprised this passed QC with TT, but it happens so I'm not going to hold that against them. It seems like there's been more chatter of late over manufacturers and issues needing warranty work and I wish more shooters understood these things happen, the question is how good is the company's response in taking care of the issue, I just had to send my brand new Schmidt in because the parallax required a wrench to turn, hoping they'll turn it around quickly.

I'm looking forward to your review of the TT, NF and Kahles... it's all making me anxious at the silence from ZCO as that is "the" scope I have most anticipated this year.

 

[steve123]

I'm sure TT will fix that completely unacceptable elevation turret problem.

I guess this goes under the "no scope is perfect" category but takes it a step further.

Nice review though, you were honest.

 

[CSTactical]

Unfortunately every and any scope can have issues, the great thing is that Armament Technology has great customer service will definitely take care of you on it.

 

[kujuak]

I’m sure you will love the kahles, I talked t the guys at @CSTactical and I hear it’s amazing. I’m sure it will give the tangent a run for its money.... BUT if you have an AI platform and it’s a quick change you will love the tooless rezero.

Also if your someone who loves the best and obviously you can afford it if your buying an AX, go Tangent theta, I guarantee you will not regret it.

Thanks! My new rifle arrive next month . The new Kahles and obviously the Tangent Theta reticle scope are not available.Soooooo. I am going to make a bunch of popcorn and wait for your opinion on the K525i. I'll put my chips down when I see what you feel about the new Kahles.

 

[Stoweit]

If the 5-25i is similar to 3.5-18 I think people will be very happy. 3.5-18 is by far the best scope I’ve ever owned.

 

[Rhed]

Great write up. I have the same thoughts with my 315P, except, my hash marks lines up perfectly on the arrow. I’ve played with the re-zero more then a few times with out misalignment. Anyways, best scope I have to date. Though I’ve only own 3 NF atacrs.

 

[Renomd]

Great write up. I have the same thoughts with my 315P, except, my hash marks lines up perfectly on the arrow. I’ve played with the re-zero more then a few times with out misalignment. Anyways, best scope I have to date. Though I’ve only own 3 NF atacrs.

Yeah interesting I saw orkans YouTube review on his tangent and his elevation turret marks were off as well haha... oh wells mine is in the mail heading towards them. Just sucks I had to flip the bill on shipping and insurance when it’s clearly a manufacturer issue

 

[Rhed]

Yeah interesting I saw orkans YouTube review on his tangent and his elevation turret marks were off as well haha... oh wells mine is in the mail heading towards them. Just sucks I had to flip the bill on shipping and insurance when it’s clearly a manufacturer issue

Have you tried emailing them.? Just curious if they’ll service the problem. If it was me, paying 4K + is not something I would just let go. Especially ill be looking at it every time I get behind the tool. Btw, on a side note, recently I’ve been having problems with the front Tenebraex cover. It would pop off a bit when I flip to cover from fully open. I emailed them asking where can I purchase another cover. They responded the next day asking for the # of the cover, my address, and phone #. Saying they’ll send a replacement. After I sent the info, never got a response back. I’m thinking they’re just gonna send it without notice. Well, I’m hoping so. I’ll post as if I get it or not..

 

[Renomd]

Have you tried emailing them.? Just curious if they’ll service the problem. If it was me, paying 4K + is not something I would just let go. Especially ill be looking at it every time I get behind the tool. Btw, on a side note, recently I’ve been having problems with the front Tenebraex cover. It would pop off a bit when I flip to cover from fully open. I emailed them asking where can I purchase another cover. They responded the next day asking for the # of the cover, my address, and phone #. Saying they’ll send a replacement. After I sent the info, never got a response back. I’m thinking they’re just gonna send it without notice. Well, I’m hoping so. I’ll post as if I get it or not..

Yeah took them 3 business days to respond, it’s already halfway to them. My thoughts exact, I don’t want to keep having to send this scope in if it occurs again. My personal opinion is something like this should be end user adjustable but understandably the tooless rezero mechanism is quite complicated probably

 

[Iron Worker]

Where are Tangent Theta scopes made ? German glass ?

 

[Renomd]

Where are Tangent Theta scopes made ? German glass ?

100% Canada haha

 

[phillip61]

Where are Tangent Theta scopes made ? German glass ?

Schott glass to be exact. ....I can't believe they would send someone a $4000+ scope with the hash marks mis-alinegned??

 

[Renomd]

Schott glass to be exact. ....I can't believe they would send someone a $4000+ scope with the hash marks mis-alinegned??

They did not I bought it secondhand

 

[918v]

So the previous owner misaligned the hash marks?

 

[Renomd]

So the previous owner misaligned the hash marks?

Negative there is no way for an end user to misalign, you will need to look at the internals of the turret cap to understand. It’s factory set. And the mechanism of how the elevation turret zeros is based on the internals. Once I get my second tangent this wed I’ll take a pic and show you what I mean.

 

[phillip61]

So the 1st owner didn't do it, and the company didn't send it out that way????............whatever you say man, I'm with ya all the way.

 

[arm017]

Very nice review. Thanks for putting this together.
I have come to very similar conclusions. TT is just beautiful.
It is impressive how forgiving the parallax is.
It balances fantastically especially for a PRS rifle.
Turrets are just fantastic; all around. - you'll have the misaligned turret in your rear view soon enough.

I had a similar buying philosophy as you, originally about to jump on the 7-35 atacr, but then an extra 800-1000 would get a TT second hand. So glad I went the way I did.

But I'll keep my 624i even with all it's shitty CA... lol
IF your game is PRS, I still think Kahles is one of the best options at this point based on it extremely forgiving "eyebox" even over the TT - think about it: we forgo ballistically superior calibers for sake of recoil management and spotting shots. You can make that ground up in the optics too, not just caliber selection. That I don't cry as hard when I put a new scratch on my kahles vs. TT.

 

[Renomd]

So the 1st owner didn't do it, and the company didn't send it out that way????............whatever you say man, I'm with ya all the way.

Misalign implies purposely trying to misalign the turret markings. He didn’t alter the sealed screws on the inside of the turret cap in anyway to induce this misalignment. It’s very much a manufacturing defect in my mind. Unfortunately tangent I hear never says what actually the defect is.

Anyways I’m a bit surprised considering these are supposed to be “unfailing ruggedness, mechanical precision and unsurpassed image quality. ” http://www.tangenttheta.com/Model-TT525P

 

[Renomd]

Very nice review. Thanks for putting this together.
I have come to very similar conclusions. TT is just beautiful.
It is impressive how forgiving the parallax is.
It balances fantastically especially for a PRS rifle.
Turrets are just fantastic; all around. - you'll have the misaligned turret in your rear view soon enough.

I had a similar buying philosophy as you, originally about to jump on the 7-35 atacr, but then an extra 800-1000 would get a TT second hand. So glad I went the way I did.

But I'll keep my 624i even with all it's shitty CA... lol
IF your game is PRS, I still think Kahles is one of the best options at this point based on it extremely forgiving "eyebox" even over the TT - think about it: we forgo ballistically superior calibers for sake of recoil management and spotting shots. You can make that ground up in the optics too, not just caliber selection. That I don't cry as hard when I put a new scratch on my kahles vs. TT.

If you have the time can you post detailed pics of the inside of the elevation turret mechanism? If no time no problem I can do it in a few days.

 

[Renomd]

Pics of the inside of the turret cap and erector. As you can see the screws have blue marking that’s likely threadlocker and a way for the company to determine if the end user tampered with the elevation turret. This will help explain to others why it’s not possiblw to purposely misalign the elevation turret markings from the arrow indicator. All the screws have that tamper sealant... . Notice how the cap and elevation erector are connected by teeth. That is not adjustable at all by the end user. I’m quite certain It’s factory set and I’m not messing with it. This is a second tangent btw with nothing wrong with it.

My other scope that I sent in for factory servicing I hope to have back soon from tangent theta with perhaps an explanation to why this $4500 scope had a simple elevation turret issue and hopefully a simple fix with directions??

 

[jeffbird]

Interesting and thoughtful writeup. The video is particularly interesting for the loudness of the turret adjustment. Turrets that are that audible are ok for matches, but a real negative in the field for hunting, and potentially lethal for a LEO or military user.

 

[Glassaholic]

Interesting and thoughtful writeup. The video is particularly interesting for the loudness of the turret adjustment. Turrets that are that audible are ok for matches, but a real negative in the field for hunting, and potentially lethal for a LEO or military user.

Maybe in CQB situations but I don't think you'll hear those clicks beyond even 100 yards, these are "long range" scopes with engagements typically well beyond the hearing limits of human or animal. If I zero at 100 yards then I'm not making adjustments until 200y and beyond and even that big eared deer is not going to hear turret clicks at that distance even on the stillest of days/nights.