Advanced Marksmanship R.O. teaches to align bore with spine-question

[capacitor]

Hello,

After reading many posts by Jacob and Lowlight regarding shooting prone with bipod (and doing some experimenting on my own) I'm convinced they are 100% dead on that getting straight behind rifle with heels down is the only way to go. Also, their amazing results more than prove this.

Question,

Seems to me the only way to get the bore in-line with the spine is to place the top part of butt pad on the collar bone as close to center of chest as possible.

I have a fairly pronounced collar bone but can handle it just fine with my .308 bolt action. I'm guessing this technique is an no go with an M1a metal butt plate and magnum calibers!!!

Just wanted to inquire with others regarding the collar bone technique before I break something. Any advice appreciated.
Thanks.

Cap

 

[Lindy]

Re: R.O. teaches to align bore with spine-question

You're misinterpreting what you're reading.

They do not advocate getting the bore in line with the spine.

The instruction is to get the bore <span style="font-style: italic">parallel</span> to the spine - which can be done with the butt of the rifle in the "pocket" formed below the collarbone by the end of the pectoral muscle and the anterior deltoid muscle.

My experience has been that under some circumstances, like a heavy-recoiling rifle being shot off a bipod sitting on a hard surface, you may have to angle the body slightly toward the shooting side, which serves to get the center of gravity directly behind the bore of the rifle. If you do that, the rifle will not move laterally under recoil.

To re-iterate, don't put the butt of the rifle on the collarbone.

 

[Garvey]

Re: R.O. teaches to align bore with spine-question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're misinterpreting what you're reading.

They do not advocate getting the bore in line with the spine.

The instruction is to get the bore <span style="font-style: italic">parallel</span> to the spine - which can be done with the butt of the rifle in the "pocket" formed below the collarbone by the end of the pectoral muscle and the anterior deltoid muscle.

My experience has been that under some circumstances, like a heavy-recoiling rifle being shot off a bipod sitting on a hard surface, you may have to angle the body slightly toward the shooting side, which serves to get the center of gravity directly behind the bore of the rifle. If you do that, the rifle will not move laterally under recoil.

To re-iterate, don't put the butt of the rifle on the collarbone.
</div></div>

+1

The spine and the rifle are on the same heading, if you will. But you cannot get the center of your spine on the same line as the rifle.

 

[capacitor]

Re: R.O. teaches to align bore with spine-question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're misinterpreting what you're reading.

They do not advocate getting the bore in line with the spine.

The instruction is to get the bore <span style="font-style: italic">parallel</span> to the spine - which can be done with the butt of the rifle in the "pocket" formed below the collarbone by the end of the pectoral muscle and the anterior deltoid muscle.

My experience has been that under some circumstances, like a heavy-recoiling rifle being shot off a bipod sitting on a hard surface, you may have to angle the body slightly toward the shooting side, which serves to get the center of gravity directly behind the bore of the rifle. If you do that, the rifle will not move laterally under recoil.

To re-iterate, don't put the butt of the rifle on the collarbone.
</div></div>

Part of what was confusing me was listening to an interview with Lou Andrews (instructor, designer of the Nightforce R2 reticle, and I believe works for Light/Nightforce) clearly stated they are currently teaching snipers:

-top of butt plate as close to the center of chest as you can, possibly on collar bone (as opposed to the shoulder pocket).

Thanks for the info Lindy. Makes sense.


Cap

 

[Lindy]

Re: R.O. teaches to align bore with spine-question

Lou Andrews doesn't work for Rifles Only. I don't know what he teaches. I know what is taught at Rifles Only - and I know what works.

 

[capacitor]

Re: R.O. teaches to align bore with spine-question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lou Andrews doesn't work for Rifles Only. I don't know what he teaches. I know what is taught at Rifles Only - and I know what works.
</div></div>

Didn't think Andrews worked at RO. Guess I misinterpreted some of Jacob and Frank posts as you said. The Andrews interview is what got me thinking this must be what the RO guys meant.
Thanks for the clarification Lindy.

Cap

 

[Lindy]

Re: R.O. teaches to align bore with spine-question

You're welcome.

And you don't have to know precisely what that angle is - let the rifle tell you. If the rifle moves laterally under recoil, change the angle until it doesn't. Simple.

 

[Powder_Burns]

Re: R.O. teaches to align bore with spine-question

If you take your arm and extend it forward like you are pushing a door or giving someone a hi-five, with your other arm feel your chest near the shoulder and under the collarbone..you should feel a pit that forms there which is insensitive to pressure. That is a good spot to stock your rifle, once you find that sweet spot its just a matter of muscle memory and getting used to the rifle being there.
I had to go through that for awhile when training myself to shoot weak-side.

 

[vman]

Re: R.O. teaches to align bore with spine-question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And you don't have to know precisely what that angle is - let the rifle tell you. If the rifle moves laterally under recoil, change the angle until it doesn't. Simple.
</div></div>

Yup. It makes for a world of difference

 

[maladat]

Re: R.O. teaches to align bore with spine-question

A kind-of related question - my experience has been that when shooting unsupported or slung-up prone angling away from the strong side is very helpful to finding a stable shooting position. What do the more experienced shooters say? Do you still recommend straight back parallel to the gun?

My experience with unsupported or slung-up prone is a lot of 4-position smallbore and a little bit of high power service rifle if it makes a difference (heavy, low-recoiling rifles).

 

[Lindy]

Re: R.O. teaches to align bore with spine-question

This is the web site for serious tactical marksmen. Given that, there is no reason to ever shoot prone from a sling. That's what bipods are for. Get straight behind the rifle.

My advice for shooting unsupported is do what works. Having the rifle pointed where your natural point of aim is in a given position will help ensure that you hit the target. Having as much of your body behind the rifle will help ensure that it stays pointed in the direction of the target.

But sometimes you've got to use a position that's not optimum.

There's lots of good advice, cheap, in the Online Training on this site.

 

[maladat]

Re: R.O. teaches to align bore with spine-question

Fair enough, thanks. I am a paid member of the online training section of the site and there is definitely a lot of good stuff there.

I have an Atlas bipod and it's great on my AR-15. I'm restocking a Sako Quad with a stock that'll have a rail up front for the Atlas, and I'm ordering parts for a precision rifle that will also have a rail up front. I like shooting prone off the bipod better than off a bench and rests and bought a Harris for the hunting rifles I have that only have sling swivels up front.

Even so, I suppose it's possible to have a bipod break, or come loose and fall off and be lost, so it may not be a TOTALLY useless skill.

 

[Lindy]

Re: R.O. teaches to align bore with spine-question

Well, I'd stuff a pack or something else to support the front end of the rifle if my bipod broke.

I practice with a sling sitting and kneeling, but not prone. A sling position cannot be maintained for very long, and that's something a tactical marksman may have to do.

 

[maladat]

Re: R.O. teaches to align bore with spine-question

Sounds good. I guess I'll practice more "improvised rest" shooting.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, I appreciate it.

I have done a ton of smallbore and a fair amount of short-range rifle shooting as well as a fair amount of "practical" pistol shooting but am new to the long range tactical arena.

When I get this rifle built I'll have to try to make it out to Rifles Only for a class.