Carry your side by side. If you can tote it, then it’s legal.
Why we can't have nice things,
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The problem is that then we just become a run and gun.
Also, there’s the issue of some MD’s not knowing why we make something 90s and then making 90s the standard time for things it shouldn’t be.
The only way we get back to pure marksmanship is either field matches or equipment restrictions.
Jesus......it’s an extreme example to prove a point.
So, replace the side by side with a step ladder if you want to nit pick.
NRL 22 has a bag size limit... 1 vollyball sized bag. (insert some examples).
1 Bag, 1 Rifle, 1 Bipod, Mags and Ammo.... easy enough. Local matches make tripod deployment be on the clock, forces you to really think about it (usually better off without).
1 Bag, 1 Rifle, 1 Bipod, Mags and Ammo.... easy enough. Local matches make tripod deployment be on the clock, forces you to really think about it (usually better off without).
If you are going to look like a jackass then you better get hits. Rules have always stated all gear in hand. Some need a side by side for confidence others need a game changer. In the end some are out to win others are there to have a good time. We are all paying to make it happen.Jesus......it’s an extreme example to prove a point.
So, replace the side by side with a step ladder if you want to nit pick.
Marksman Class:
Rifle: 18lbs
Bag: 5lbs
Mag: any stage over 10rnds requires mag change
Nothing wider than 2.5” (rifle or attachments)
Bipod: nothing over 18” (can use longer, but can’t be deployed longer than 18”)
Only allowed a rear bag and one other bag for the match. Not 5 bags to choose from depending on stage.
At large matches, there’s a postal scale at each stage (they aren’t expensive) and the RO can weigh your rifle and/or bag at anytime they see fit.
Rifle: 18lbs
Bag: 5lbs
Mag: any stage over 10rnds requires mag change
Nothing wider than 2.5” (rifle or attachments)
Bipod: nothing over 18” (can use longer, but can’t be deployed longer than 18”)
Only allowed a rear bag and one other bag for the match. Not 5 bags to choose from depending on stage.
At large matches, there’s a postal scale at each stage (they aren’t expensive) and the RO can weigh your rifle and/or bag at anytime they see fit.
Exactly right. This is another reason why the competition has gotten so close at the top, and only a point or two separate the top 10 places. Light recoiling rifles, super heavy rifles, light triggers and sand bags all make it easier to "get away" with bad fundamentals and still shoot well.
And I don’t necessarily have an issue with it.
But, what are we trying to test at a match?
Again, that’s not how a league will rise.
The formula is already there for every other major game or sport. Everyone doing their own thing doesn’t achieve anymore than we already have.
There’s nothing wrong with MD’s doing their own thing. But, if you want to participate in a league, you need to conform to league rules. Which as it sits, are non existent rules since it basically just says “do whatever you want”.
See, this is a great example to speak to. The answer to whether this is "gaming" or "cheating" rests with the objective of the competition. Are you trying to test specific skills, or are you trying to test an individual's ability to adapt and overcome to achieve a goal?
There are already 10 position 90 second stages, they were at the previous two PRS finales in 2018 and 2019. In 2019 you had to run and gun shooting out of 10 different windows along the length of two conex boxes. I think there was even a 12 position 90 second stage in a match at one point last year. Still doable even with a heavy rifle and heavy sandbag/gamechanger.
@djarecke Curious on your thoughts on this, as someone who plays the game at the highest level. Do you think it's something that should be regulated? Gun weight, bag weight, trigger pull weight? Or does it get sorted out naturally by shooters who make the choice to move towards a practical rifle and keep on winning?
It's something I think about. I took 2nd place behind @CaylenW at a club match earlier this year. He was running a mid-weight 6.5 creedmoor and I was shooting my heavy 6mm. A clean win on his part with no games needed.
For those 10 position stages 90 second stages, how many actually had to deploy a tripod on the clock? Considering it takes 20-25+ seconds to deploy a tripod and break a shot, that burns up a ton of time. That practically eliminates it as an option for the vast majority of shooters. 1 bag rule also eliminates a lot of other shenanigans.
And weight is all relative. I've said it before, for someone reasonably fit, a 6+ lb gamechanger and 22lb rifle don't weigh that much. Might feel like a ton for someone who's 120 lb, but otherwise it's a complete non-factor to move around.
Gear might matter for the low-to-mid pack shooters, but it seems the top shooters will rise to the top regardless. Top finishers of 2 day matches seem to be fairly consistent, especially considering the entire field has access to any equipment they choose to use.
For many, nothing. For many others, we will not waste time and money investing in a sport where rules are different everywhere you go.
I might go to an occasional shoot like that if there's nothing else to do. But investing money and time it takes to make it a dedicated pursuit? NOPE.
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I know it has been an awfully long time since I have posted on this forum, but it has been an awfully long time since I have cared to compete at a match. I left the precision long range match competition thing a long time ago, and it was for this exact reason. It became a totalitarian regime that said one thing and did another. Those at the top aren’t there to grow the sport, they are there to line their pockets. The arms race has done nothing but reinforce that very belief. People should be able to attend any match they choose, and MD’s should be able to host any match they want. If they want to host a PRS match, cool. If they want to host a NRL match, cool. If they want to host a match that isn’t affiliated with either, thats cool too. It that isn’t what the people at the top want. This section of the shooting sports is turning into a huge ponzi scheme. Those at the top line their pockets, while the new guys coming in don’t have a chance... It is truly sad...
Frank, you are 100% correct. I know I haven’t agreed with everything you have said in the past, but on this, you are right for sure.
Dave is one of the most stand up humble guys I have ever had the pleasure of shooting with. People like him are the reason people like me attended matches early on in their shooting careers...
Little League and Cal Ripken do not sent umps to every event. The are locals trained on rules and values.
in what I see as the closest example to us, racing, the national bodies sanction the tracks, require us to follow a national set of rules and may send a rep (from our area) to check in occasionally.
the true “touring series” sends a small team to enforce their program.
but we also have a regional promoters workshop (MD’s/range owners in this case) every year where we sit and talk schedules, special events and have the sanction bodies at the table.
I would be happy to help organize such a thing.
in what I see as the closest example to us, racing, the national bodies sanction the tracks, require us to follow a national set of rules and may send a rep (from our area) to check in occasionally.
the true “touring series” sends a small team to enforce their program.
but we also have a regional promoters workshop (MD’s/range owners in this case) every year where we sit and talk schedules, special events and have the sanction bodies at the table.
I would be happy to help organize such a thing.
I think you made the exact point I was trying to make. Let me explain.
I hadn't shot my .308 or 6.5 in a while, and decided to pull them out (largely so I don't burn up my small rifle primers). I was amazed at:
1. How many hits on target I had with my suppressed .308 out to 800 yards. Even on small targets. However, once the wind got switchy, it was a gamble past 800. The biggest surprise? I was watching trace and spotting impacts from 400 - 800 yards. According to recent trends, this should be impossible. I guess on some level I had thought it was impossible because of all of the "anti-.308" trends of late.
2. How little my "light" 6.5 gave up in terms of control and spotting impacts. Again - the 6.5 was amazingly-accurate and I was spotting trace and impacts nearly as well as with my heavy 6BR. The 6.5 did have a Maverick on it, but still...
None of this should be shocking, but I hadn't shot those rifles in earnest in several years and was amazed at how well they did, and what an extremely minor advantage the 6BR is.
What we have done is create a game, and people are shooting within the rules (or lack thereof), and they have created a subculture that follows the trends of the game. Light triggers, heavy rifles, low recoil, big sandbags, straight taper barrels, use of tripods on stages...
People don't want to work on fundamentals. They want to do the "Western Culture Thing" and buy a piece of gear, slap a 6 ounce trigger and hit targets. This thought process is not unique to PRS. It's pervasive in our culture.
The impression is that you NEED those things to do well at a match, and this is simply not true. You do need those things if you don't have good fundamentals and cannot use your fundamentals under timed pressure. The top guys don't need those things to shoot well, but they use them as "insurance" or "assurance" to raise their hit probability. Chris Kutalek won a match this year with a pencil-barreled 6.5 shooting MOA against the very best, so gear had nothing to do with his win. Another example is the AG Cup where shooters used tripods on 80% of all of the stages, even the PRS barricade. I hadn't seen that in years.
Personally, I don't like using those things and don't feel they are needed. It almost takes some of the fun out of the stage to have the rifle on a tripod or tac table and I feel like a "driver", not a shooter.
So should we mandate a rifle weight and a trigger pull weight? Eliminate the use of tac tables and tripods?
In my opinion, yes.
But nobody asked me LOL...
That question is precisely why I got into PRS. F Class and Highpower were the wrong tests and didn't develop the right skills to make a better field shooter, which is what *I* was after. Rifle weight and gamer gear be damned, I'm 10x better at practical field shooting for having competed in this sport the last 3 years, and I see a lot of translation to my hunting and overall shooting ability. YMMV.
It's going to be interesting to see if trends change when a bunch of grown men get skull drug this year by an 80lb girl shooting a light weight 6 creedmoor and a heavy trigger.
i'll let ya know how that goes this weekend hahaha. same venue she whipped all of us at last year.
Yes sir. It could be as subtle as people covertly removing weight from their rifles, or as overt as people dry firing in their basements in yoga pants.
Time will tell.
But either way, it doesn't look good.
WTF what??? I didn't do it
it would have been a fun argument if they didn't like it. I have avideo of it somewhere.
That was my last 3 gun match and I loved all the matches run like that. I finished mid A flight and thought the way they did it was spectacular. Was a great match too...
I did random draw like a raffle two years ago at a Regional. I let winner walk then drew everyone else. It’s was kinda cool. And everyone walked away with something. RO’s included!
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I don't think adding 5 pounds to your gun is going to help lol.
You know, there's always those individuals, no matter what the rules state, or if the rules don't cover it, are always going to complain about someone else and the equipment they have or use.
In one breath, they say such and such shouldn't be used, but then say in the next breath it doesn't make a difference, then complain about it.
For example, if you don't like using a tripod, don't use one, how much more simple can it be?
If you think a 22-lb rifle is too heavy, no one is forcing you to have one, so keep shooting your 12-lb rifle and stop complaining.
I just don't get all the drama that's created?
I like to keep rules to the minimum, and the ones in place should be there to protect and keep everyone safe during the match. I'm a firm believer, if you can carry it (the entire match), then you can use it in the match, no matter how anyone else feels about it being practical or not.
Less Rules = More Fun
I can get behind this statement. But how many have started to see these at local matches. Does this count as carrying it?
At a 3 gun match, yes. At a long range precision match nope. Carry means carry...
You know, all those stupid Tank Traps they are using at matches, they would be better served to put up a row of those between stages, that would stop stupid shit like that.
I'm all for change! I can't wait to shoot Production Class with my Accuracy International ATX.
No, it's literally a big ass bag you can use as a cuddle pillow, shooting pillow, or a hump pillow.
Google Armageddon Gear Numero Uno.
Should I be embarrassed that I was actually debating buying one? As a hump pillow?
Shooting multiple positions off a single prop like a tank trap is not movement
taking four steps forward dropping a bag on a tank trap, is not movement, sliding over 2ft on a barricade is not movement
weight = stability anyway you slice it
movement means hustle, i have not shot a match that required hustle since 2016
the meaning behind displacement is not adjusting your firing position 8” from the previous shots, it means displace or die
taking four steps forward dropping a bag on a tank trap, is not movement, sliding over 2ft on a barricade is not movement
weight = stability anyway you slice it
movement means hustle, i have not shot a match that required hustle since 2016
the meaning behind displacement is not adjusting your firing position 8” from the previous shots, it means displace or die
Just my $0.02...If the rules waste money (or cause general inconvenience), this isn't true. People don' want to "buy in" to a game that is rigged in favour of other people who have "bought in" to some arbitrary system that rewards the performance strictly in proportion to the money spent on X (or the inconvenience willing to be borne, by some to maximize X...etc).
I like matches with hustle.
Last months club match had a long run up a hill to start the stage, jump on the gun and engage 4 different targets 2 shots each, only 90 second time limit with the run included.
My favorite though was the JC Steel match where we had the run-n-gun stage. That was about 1/2 mile of running and shooting, 8 different stages along the way 2 shots each, and you had to ruck everything that you were going to use at the match. Score was a combination of hits + total time. Great stage.
Last months club match had a long run up a hill to start the stage, jump on the gun and engage 4 different targets 2 shots each, only 90 second time limit with the run included.
My favorite though was the JC Steel match where we had the run-n-gun stage. That was about 1/2 mile of running and shooting, 8 different stages along the way 2 shots each, and you had to ruck everything that you were going to use at the match. Score was a combination of hits + total time. Great stage.
Those type of stages sound great, but it goes back to the question of what skills are you trying to test in a stage or match. That type of stage absolutely favors stronger, more physically fit competitors, and would disadvantage people who are older, out of shape, or are physically incapable of moving with that type of speed.
If the test is for pure marksmanship with multiple positions that require competitors to rebuild positions, then physical stages like that with lots of non-shooting time aren't really the best option. And the difference of moving 2 feet or 20 feet really isn't that big of a difference; you break a position, and set up again.
I mean, I'd have no qualms about making it more physical, but I bet a lot of other people would. If the intent is to grow the sport, not sure how making it more physically demanding is going to do so.
A combination of physical fitness and marksmanship is something else entirely than the PRS/NRL, and seem to already be really popular with the Competition Dynamics, Mammoth, Vortex Sniper Challenge, etc.
A lot of club matches I shoot include partially to totally disabled vets, older folks, in wheelchairs, etc. Making matches physically demanding would alienate a lot of people. I wouldn't mind it, for example, but my buddy (who is blind in one eye and missing half his left leg) would not show up to matches anymore.
There is already a venue for physically demanding matches...
There is already a venue for physically demanding matches...
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