Why we can't have nice things,
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If your bag cannot fit inside the carry on size tester at the airport it probably shouldn’t be used on a stage. 
So are we blaming Jersey Boys, the PRS, the MD or the RO who allowed it. Any of us who have been around competition understand why we have umpires or referees. Imagine all the money that could be saved if all competitors were honest and our little leagues no longer needed a mediator.
That’s a tiered answer.
First and foremost, if a stage is obviously intended to have the rifle resting on a rope, putting what is essentially a table under the rope and supporting the rifle on the table/bag is without question against the intent.
And yes, the RO shouldn’t have allowed it or called the MD. However, the problem still stemmed from the shooter/s.
And there is the argument “well, the MD should be more specific.” Well.....at what point are we getting into sheer absurdity? What if a cof for a stage says:
Equipment: No restrictions
Can I drive a side by side or a tractor up and prop up a barricade that is otherwise pretty shaky? The cof says no restrictions right??
Why don’t you see shooters using this bag on literally every stage at every match? Except for rare circumstances, you never see a bag size restriction in a match book. Yet you almost never see this bag. If it was even remotely considered acceptable, shooters would be using it on literally every stage that isn’t spelled out they can’t. (You don’t see it because everyone knows it’s ridiculous)
And, we get into a very dangerous area if we take the approach: “if it’s not specifically stated in the stage or cof description, it’s allowed.”
As that translates to telling people it’s ok to try to find any loophole possible.
In baseball for example, if a player cheats and doesn’t get caught, who’s fault is it?
Short version: the blame is squarely on the shooter despite the RO not disallowing it.
Shooting disciplines are pretty funny. What everyone else calls cheating, we call “gaming”.
(I am in no way calling the shooter/s cheaters. As I don’t believe they had any ill intent as far as that goes)
When points matter more than keeping in line with the intent of the competition, we have jumped the shark.
And everyone needs to keep in mind, Rifles Only is first and foremost a training facility. The goal is to make people great marksman. Not just shooters who can balance a 22lb rifle on an 8lb bag and time their slap on a 6oz trigger.
This goal extends into the competitions held at RO.
So, when a training deficiency is identified, the cof can/will be modified accordingly. The use of this bag highlighted the training deficiency of being too dependent on bags. So the cof was adjusted accordingly on day two to not allow any bags at all.
This goal extends into the competitions held at RO.
So, when a training deficiency is identified, the cof can/will be modified accordingly. The use of this bag highlighted the training deficiency of being too dependent on bags. So the cof was adjusted accordingly on day two to not allow any bags at all.
Terrible example/comparison. You would never get that stable from an Alice pack in that position.
I was one of the RO’s for that stage. There’s a reason I allowed it. But I’m not wasting my time explaining/ justifying my decision in letting it fly.
But, y’all can come at me. I love entertainment.
The funny and telling part was, how guys are so dependent on a front or even rear support bag.
We (RO’s) shot the roof top stage on Day2 cause we wanted to know why guys were missing a nice size target at 400y. We couldn’t come to a conclusion cause that stage was f*ing easy.
out of 53 guys, only 1 guy cleaned it. The last shooter too. 10 round stage.
It’s over with. If you’re crying that your placement got screwed up because of the no bag on Day2 or even taking that stage completely off the scores, how about you suck less.
This x1000.
We have moved past the “no matter what you do, the best shooters will still be at the top.”
That statement was absolutely true until things evolved to balancing a rifle on a bag as the main skill set.
I will personally be adding in no bag stages to future matches after watching people struggle.
So, I think you're proving the point that, to the average shooter, what happens with the PRS as an organization makes exactly ZERO difference. Glad your match was no drama - that's as it should be. Ya know, a less trusting person than I might suspect that you're trying to stir the pot...
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I'm a newb and my opinion doesn't matter one bit on any of this, but seems as though prs isn't all that well liked and enjoyed by those who shoot??? If not, then what's the point of it? Isn't there a way to just have local/regional matches with a simple way to validate points? Such as "MD + 2 shooters sign the card" type of thing? Then upload to a national public forum? I would think it would be pretty easy to get many sponsors to pay for the minimal cost of such a forum to simply keep track of points??? Is this not the case? Again, I'm a newb and I don't pretend to know the ins and outs with any of this stuff.
Hells yeah. I'm really digging how RO handled this, though I wouldn't expect anything different from Jacob.
The lines between intent and gear have been blurred a long time ago, though this episode is a bit over the top. Gamer plates make me feel the same way - in my mind an impractical implement that makes otherwise unsteady positions into an almost benchrest steady position.
I dislike how our guns are evolving away from practicality and into the realm of a super specialized sport with really specialized (and impractical) gear, like IPSC.
But I guys that's "evolution". Who am I to say what's right and what's wrong. But we are certainly getting away from our roots, for better or worse.
The lines between intent and gear have been blurred a long time ago, though this episode is a bit over the top. Gamer plates make me feel the same way - in my mind an impractical implement that makes otherwise unsteady positions into an almost benchrest steady position.
I dislike how our guns are evolving away from practicality and into the realm of a super specialized sport with really specialized (and impractical) gear, like IPSC.
But I guys that's "evolution". Who am I to say what's right and what's wrong. But we are certainly getting away from our roots, for better or worse.
Not me...just adding perspective.
a friend once said. “You can’t stir shit without getting some on you”
a friend once said. “You can’t stir shit without getting some on you”
On the contrary, your opinion, and the opinions of those like you, are the key to the ever elusive goal of "growing the sport". Good on you for speaking up and asking questions...
I’d argue that a plate that’s very thin, and weighs very little, is pretty practical. Pretty easy to keep in a pack for a working rifle and throw on your rifle when/if needed. It also doubles as a table on your tripod if needed.
I put them in the category of tripods. They “look” the gamer aspect, but are very practical when you think about it.
As opposed to things that don’t *look* gamer, but a pretty impractical such as:
Any bag over 4-6lbs (really anything much more than 2-4)
Pillows (you’d use your pack or jacket)
Large bipods like a triple pull ckyepod
etc etc
It's a game. Gaming is what you do.
If the stage designer didn't want that part of it gamed, he should have just tossed a bag into the helo and stated in the stage description that the only allowed bag was already in the aircraft.
"Spirit" or "intent" of a stage is BS that is ripe for inconsistent application because it's, guess what, subjective.
And before you go there, gaming isn't cheating. It's taking advantage of what the rules allow, sometimes in ways that others don't see ahead of time. It's how a game is played.
The only time gaming is confused with cheating is when you have hazy, cloudy, ill-written sport rules that include "intent". That goes double when a "sport" can't make up its mind about whether it is a sport or "training".
I've seen all this before. I've seen it all play out already.
A private, for profit
It's called IDPA and it's a joke. Anyone who's serious about being a handgun competitor spends very little time there and ends up in USPSA.
Pro tip: if a stage gets materially changed after the match has started you either make everyone who's shot it already re-shoot it or you throw it out of the results. Anything else is bush league.
Like Bill Engvall says.........."here's your sign"
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So, if a stage says no gear restrictions........
I can back up my side by side and shoot it off that right? I mean, it’s not in the rules?
Also, the stage was thrown out. That’s not the discussion at hand.
At some point, things get to the point of ridiculousness and when a sport is still developing, it’s not in the rules yet.
Going outside of what is the obvious intent when these situations arise makes you an asshole at best.
If a sport has a cohesive rulebook that explains what each equipment division is allowed to use and not use as a baseline, then there would be no need to clutter up a stage description with 20,000 if, ands, or buts.
I would go along with your outline of whats reasonable. However until there's such an outline we are kind of stuck.
I shot a match a couple yrs ago and almost gamed it big time. Car stage multiple positions. Everyone bypassed the inside positions and took a loss of a few points. The side you shot from still had glass in the window... during the stage my mind said shove the muzzle through and break the glass and get the points.. I didn't! But there was nothing saying I couldn't. Its a slipper slope at times.
Ya, the more you outline, the better it is.
This is also why an national organization isn’t going to work as current unless there’s a national MD that goes to every match.
As it sits, any MD can do basically whatever they want
This is also why an national organization isn’t going to work as current unless there’s a national MD that goes to every match.
As it sits, any MD can do basically whatever they want
LOL. One team brought bikes to Mammoth and asked if they could ride them instead of walking. The rules didn’t say anything about not using them...
Shame because precision rifle shooting has potential. If things continue as they are, it will always be a fractured, disjointed hobby. Just like 3 Gun.
Your opinion and others coming into the sport are EXACTLY the opinions we need honestly. Fresh perspective from people who can share their experiences at matches, etc. From my experience at matches I have shot, RO'd or MD'd the shooters do not dislike PRS. Most shooters are not in the forums discussions. A smaller group is who shares in topics like this. The local/regional idea is great and works for the majority of our matches. It is nice to host a larger sanctioned event from time to time to draw shooters from outside your Region...
I think the wide variety in matches is part of the beauty of the sport, and makes people more adaptable. The current rules for PRS, NRL, etc just set a framework for basic velocity & caliber restrictions, classes, etc. The MD's get to set any specific match or stage rules to suit their own range, course of fire, etc. Don't want to allow a gamer plate, tripod, huge bag, *any* bag, for a specific stage or even entire match, it's been done. But if you want to talk about a league "owning" a game, setting national rules that dictate weight or size of a bag, specific gear use, target sizes and distances, etc etc would crush innovation and make the matches a lot more similar than they are now, which folks like Frank are railing against already. Let the match directors come up with their own course of fire, along with whatever stage rules are applicable. If the MD's turn it into barricade benchrest, ok. If they want to ban any bags, ok. Getting trapped into one shooting style that isn't adaptable is an issue, but national rules won't fix that.
You couldn't be more wrong.
First, I've avoided going into too much detail about what should and shouldn't be regulated/standardized in precision rifle shooting. So please don't attribute to me things I haven't said.
Second, no pistol shooting sport (what I am most familiar with) has spurred more creativity and innovation in equipment, stage design, and shooting technique than USPSA despite the fact that it has a (by PRS standards) a very detailed rulebook.
I'm going to stop here because this is like trying to describe sex to a virgin.
If someone within the sport is interested in my opinion, they can ask me. Otherwise, I'm fine too.
As many others have said local matches are successful because of local shooters and excellent MDs that create a fair and fun environment.
This past weekend we had a great match based on Scott's ability to create and manage fair and fun events. It was a mix of people most who don't care about points or national measuring, and some that do.
Regardless there were 40 shooters for a Feb club match that used to be 20. That interest has grown from PRS events, our UKD match, shooters, and forums like this and others that share the experience and invite others.
It's always the experience not the outcome.
I'm not new to shooting but I'm very new to this type of shooting. Honestly, it was after this whole "stuff" that happened this past year when I saw how the sports teams that I've supported (substantially directly supported!) Actually feel about me. That's the truth. I decided to look into furthering my shooting, which I've always enjoyed. I figured it was something I could do with my boys, instead of spending Saturday's at a football or basketball venue, and use the money I was spending on shooting stuff ect...
That's what lead me to look hard at prs type matches and competitions and I suspect that I'm not alone in this line of thinking.
For me, I would prefer to have some standardized rules in place and adhered to, BUT the idea of a private business controlling it all, does not appeal to me what so ever! I own and operate a business, and I understand the dynamic very well. It's just a bad idea for many reasons.
This thread lessens what little draw I did have towards trying 2-day matches. After reading this, I damn sure don’t want to give Shannon Kay a single cent of my money. I love the local matches, but I would love to see more practical matches start up at a local level. The outdoor/practical part of me is drawn to the idea of blind stages, find/range/engage it.
As far as “growing the sport”, how about modified stages for hunters so you can introduce your friends to it without trying to convince them to invest a ton of money? Something that isn’t soul crushing for a guy with a pencil-barrel .30-06/.270 and duplex reticle, limited to maybe 3-4 shots at the most and distances no longer than maybe 350-400 yards. @lowlight mentioned something like that in one of his podcasts so full credit there; I’m not claiming to have any original ideas here. It seems like that could be an easy gateway to get these long time hunters and shooters into the sport.
As far as “growing the sport”, how about modified stages for hunters so you can introduce your friends to it without trying to convince them to invest a ton of money? Something that isn’t soul crushing for a guy with a pencil-barrel .30-06/.270 and duplex reticle, limited to maybe 3-4 shots at the most and distances no longer than maybe 350-400 yards. @lowlight mentioned something like that in one of his podcasts so full credit there; I’m not claiming to have any original ideas here. It seems like that could be an easy gateway to get these long time hunters and shooters into the sport.
Very solid points. I think a lot is based on who and where you shoot with that may determine the experience. I think one entity controlling the sport is not ideal. I think options are what will (in the words of my dad) "keep honest people honest" ...I think having some sanction bodies who can bring large events is a good thing and brings some options to shooters who want to compete at a higher level either "full-time" or occasionally. My local matches are open to all, offer a family friendly atmosphere mixed with solid competition. They are my bread and butter and honestly how I have earned the respect of shooters. Great input!
Something that has worked here is our "Hunter" division which was our Prone division until this year. It introduces shooters to the target engagement process with multiple targets, a little longer time per stage and offers the shooter to pick a position that works for them (bags, bipod, tri-pod etc) and can be done without running out to buy a "tactical" rifle. It is also a great division for the shooter who wants to come shoot, get ready for a hunt or just likes to shoot his guns and challenge him/her self. As far as giving anyone $$$. All sanction bodies collect fees from matches...some per shooter, some per match....But all collect a minimal fee. And it is paid by the MD from the Match fees. Memberships are not mandatory to shoot any of the events. My local matches are $40. And I know employees for PRS and other bodies...and they BUST THEIR HUMPS behind the scenes to make sure things run. This is not about ONE MAN.
I understand. My local matches are in the SE PRS region, and the match directors are awesome people. Some of them are probably even friends with Shannon, and they shoot at K&M a lot. That’s fine and it is what it is.
I’ll continue to pay my match fee and attend these local matches because they’re run well, friendly, inviting and don’t have contrived stages. I have no doubt they could run these matches with the same attendance without the PRS. There’s no prize tables, and people keep coming back because the guys are good people and bust their butts to put on a good match.
That email that went out seems like fucking cancer to the sport, so what I will not do is buy a PRS membership or spend any money at K&M.
If you are not lazy like the PRS and actually design stages and consider the equipment carried, this is not very hard to figure out.
Spell it out, a Full Kit for Shooters:
A full load out consists of the following items
1 Rear Bag
1 Front Rest not exceeding 10LBS
1 Tripod
1 Pillow not exceeding X” x Y”
Define a bipod
9” vs 18” etc just use height
Then you can break down stages
Stage 1 through 10 - Full Kit
Stage 11 through 15 - One bag, one bipod, not other accessories
Stage 16 through 20 - Open call, secondary accessories included,
You just map Primary, Secondary, and even you can add Experimental if you want for bigger matches.
This is the processes that are missing, is that rifle legal, what makes a rifle legal, why do we define equipment, and where do we open and limit their use?
These are the repeatables, the stuff that might change via event or yearly but really don’t change in the course of an event. This way you can change it, keep people on their toes or if they start to take advantage you can adjust it
Spelling out a reason way is not bad thing, they use match booklets, if people are just doing what the book say, spell it out out in the booklet.
It’s a weekend to make a list of how and why you’ll carry X, Y, Z, at any given event, just don’t be lazy
Spell it out, a Full Kit for Shooters:
A full load out consists of the following items
1 Rear Bag
1 Front Rest not exceeding 10LBS
1 Tripod
1 Pillow not exceeding X” x Y”
Define a bipod
9” vs 18” etc just use height
Then you can break down stages
Stage 1 through 10 - Full Kit
Stage 11 through 15 - One bag, one bipod, not other accessories
Stage 16 through 20 - Open call, secondary accessories included,
You just map Primary, Secondary, and even you can add Experimental if you want for bigger matches.
This is the processes that are missing, is that rifle legal, what makes a rifle legal, why do we define equipment, and where do we open and limit their use?
These are the repeatables, the stuff that might change via event or yearly but really don’t change in the course of an event. This way you can change it, keep people on their toes or if they start to take advantage you can adjust it
Spelling out a reason way is not bad thing, they use match booklets, if people are just doing what the book say, spell it out out in the booklet.
It’s a weekend to make a list of how and why you’ll carry X, Y, Z, at any given event, just don’t be lazy
The top shooters shoot with one bag. Most don’t use a pillow type bag. They have a solid understanding of the position to get their body in and how their body dictates how their rifle responds. Kinda cool watching the strategy.
I’m not gonna bite on the other part. But I’ve seen people show up that are used to typical flat ranges carry all their crap and see in my COF I typically don’t allow tripods and limit bags. Lol.
I’m not gonna bite on the other part. But I’ve seen people show up that are used to typical flat ranges carry all their crap and see in my COF I typically don’t allow tripods and limit bags. Lol.
That argument for skill held water when bags weight a few lbs with poly fill, rifles were 16-18lbs max, and forearms weren’t 3-4” wide (be it the chassis or a plate on it).
Now, with 22lb rifles, 8lb+ sand bags, and 6oz triggers......it’s literally a who can balance rifle and slap trigger the best while making a decent wind call.
We have progressed into a spot where we have all but taken the shooter out of the equation as far as positions go. Your body used to be part of the position as you were part of the support system.
Now, there’s nothing “wrong” with what this has evolved to. But, as MD’s and competitors we have to ask ourselves what do we want to test or what do we want to be tested on.
I remember the first “pillow” bag I saw at a match. Our former MD and founder of our match had his wife make him a bag...Spider-Man material.
Seems like you can help mitigate the reliance on gear with more movement and shorter stage times. Heavy rifles, tripod rear support, and extra bags become a whole lot harder to use with 4-5 positions and 90 second stage times.
For as long as i can remember We have been shooting matches that require starting with all gear in hand.
Not sure where you quoted my post from. I didn’t say anything at all about gear in hand or not.
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