Random PRS scope recital question

[186thFCo]

Hello everyone,

Just more of a curiosity question but for PRS matches are competitors starting to trend back to more conventual scope recitals? For example Leupold's PR3 or ZC's MPCT1X. I know the majority of shooters still use Xmas tree but recently I have seen more than a few people switch to the MK4HD with that PR3 recital. Personally I don't see any advantage the PR3 has on the PR2 especially if there is any amount of wind and I'm shooting a stage where it is better to hold over than to dial. What do you guys think?

Side note the MK4HD/MK5HD with the PR2 recital deserves an illuminated recital.

 

[Rob01]

Not that I have seen. Who are the more than a few? Maybe they just got the Mk4HD in that reticle

But some advice to anyone reading this and saying "hey this top guy changed so I should too!". Don't be a sheep. Use what works for you. Just because someone else goes to something doesn't mean you have to if it doesn't seem like it offers any advantage for you and actually takes some advantage away.

 

[kthomas]

I would be really surprised if this was the case.

 

[Covertnoob5]

I mean yes most top guys are doing non trees. Does that work for everyone? No, but also trending back toward simplistic reticles is definitely a thing. Mostly to free up the most space possible to see trace and impacts. The PR2 and PR3 are very minimal for a reason. The 1X, JTAC, etc are the same. Even the gen3xr is pretty simple.
When shooting my dasher I’ve actually had to move my reticle out of the way on purpose cause it’s blocking my impact down range. Getting rid of the tree portion for some of those guys allows just that much more. Granted they’re also dialing both elevation and wind age for the most part so if that’s not you then maybe those reticles won’t work. They never hold over unless they have too by design but I haven’t seen a mandatory hold over stage at a 2 day in a couple years.

Different strokes for different folks but yea the top guys are doing it so there will be a good amount of people that will switch also.

 

[186thFCo]

I should have clarified that these are not top shooters, I'm not saying that Team MDT is switching to these but just more like people that compete regionally. I didn't mean for it to come off as me saying that this is the newest greatest thing. Just something that I had observed.

 

[Rob01]

They never hold over unless they have too by design but I haven’t seen a mandatory hold over stage at a 2 day in a couple years.

Because that would be a rifle skill set that's not needed in barricade benchrest. LOL

 

[oldrifleman]

I have several of the ZCO 1x scopes but am definitely not a top shooter. I have them on guns that are mostly range use. It frees up so much space for times I don’t need to hold over.

 

[Rob01]

 

[oldrifleman]

View attachment 8469546

exactly, my son gets distracted (Squirrel) and this helps, my daughter has no idea how to use the tree, so just trying to make it easier.

 

[kthomas]

I mean yes most top guys are doing non trees. Does that work for everyone? No, but also trending back toward simplistic reticles is definitely a thing. Mostly to free up the most space possible to see trace and impacts. The PR2 and PR3 are very minimal for a reason. The 1X, JTAC, etc are the same. Even the gen3xr is pretty simple.
When shooting my dasher I’ve actually had to move my reticle out of the way on purpose cause it’s blocking my impact down range. Getting rid of the tree portion for some of those guys allows just that much more. Granted they’re also dialing both elevation and wind age for the most part so if that’s not you then maybe those reticles won’t work. They never hold over unless they have too by design but I haven’t seen a mandatory hold over stage at a 2 day in a couple years.

Different strokes for different folks but yea the top guys are doing it so there will be a good amount of people that will switch also.

I don't compete in PRS anymore, but I guess this makes sense.

Moving away from once commonly tested skills will drive different decisions in gear selection.

 

[Covertnoob5]

Because that would be a rifle skill set that's not needed in barricade benchrest. LOL

Lol it’s a give and take I think. I’ll never forget a stage in Utah 2019 I had a TT with the gen2xr reticle. Had to hold over expect I didn’t have a tree where I needed to hold so it was out in empty space. Sold the TT as soon as I got home and I believe I went back to a Vortex or NF for a better tree option.
Now, because of reticle design and or dumb luck of dope, some would argue it’s not fair to have to shoot in empty space and creates a disadvantage on a stage like that vs some guy that has an h59 or something with every mark under the sun. Same with spinners, guys shooting 6mm and smaller would always complain the big calibers had the advantage, but off the wobbly stuff it’s vice versa. I do agree tho that spinners are hard to make fair because of the prop itself.
True KYL racks are all but gone because the point swing is too big.

 

[Rob01]

Lol it’s a give and take I think. I’ll never forget a stage in Utah 2019 I had a TT with the gen2xr reticle. Had to hold over expect I didn’t have a tree where I needed to hold so it was out in empty space. Sold the TT as soon as I got home and I believe I went back to a Vortex or NF for a better tree option.
Now, because of reticle design and or dumb luck of dope, some would argue it’s not fair to have to shoot in empty space and creates a disadvantage on a stage like that vs some guy that has an h59 or something with every mark under the sun. Same with spinners, guys shooting 6mm and smaller would always complain the big calibers had the advantage, but off the wobbly stuff it’s vice versa. I do agree tho that spinners are hard to make fair because of the prop itself.
True KYL racks are all but gone because the point swing is too big.

Yup people complained about having to hold over/under and they caved. Same with KYLs but difference is holds are a useful skill that people should know how to do. We did them years back before there were tree reticles and no one complained. I remember those cries about the KYLs though. Mostly from guys who didn’t understand the reason for it and always lost points trying to clean it. I usually brought 2 maybe three rounds to the line with me.

Never shot a lot of spinners at matches but as long as it was weighted right it’s pretty fair but don’t miss them. Lol Shot one a month or so back at a regional match but see them more in Rimfire now.

 

[kthomas]

Yup people complained about having to hold over/under and they caved. Same with KYLs but difference is holds are a useful skill that people should know how to do. We did them years back before there were tree reticles and no one complained. I remember those cries about the KYLs though. Mostly from guys who didn’t understand the reason for it and always lost points trying to clean it. I usually brought 2 maybe three rounds to the line with me.

Never shot a lot of spinners at matches but as long as it was weighted right it’s pretty fair but don’t miss them. Lol Shot one a month or so back at a regional match but see them more in Rimfire now.

The neutering of the sport.

 

[Taylorbok]

I ended up with a MCT1 reticle second hand because it was a good deal.
I haven't had a chance to use it yet but I started thinking it might be nice to have a less cluttered sight picture. Also 99% of my misses are windage only so it's rarely of benefit. If your data doesn't line up perfect it might take some time truing to get everything spot on but really I rarely use the tree anymore.

 

[Rob01]

If your data doesn't line up perfect it might take some time truing to get everything spot on but really I rarely use the tree anymore.

Your reticle hold is the same as what you would dial on. There is no trueing to the reticle.

 

[Taylorbok]

Your reticle hold is the same as what you would dial on. There is no trueing to the reticle.

I meant if your solver doesn't match up properly to actual dope causing elevation and windage misses it's harder to see exactly where that went without a Christmas tree. So may have to true your solution if there is errors

 

[Rob01]

I meant if your solver doesn't match up properly to actual dope causing elevation and windage misses it's harder to see exactly where that went without a Christmas tree. So may have to true your solution if there is errors

So you mean just holding the correction?

 

[Jcarpenter223]

I went jtac reticle because of how open it was and it made seeing any misses a bit clearer. Generally I’m not a MIL off and corrections aren’t more than 4 tenths to dial it back in center. If I ever am that much off, my dumbass didn’t dial when I was supposed to. I’ve had the ebr7c, skmr3, pr2 and have settled on jtac, not because someone else did but because it’s what my eye liked. Generally that’s the best way to choose a reticle

 

[Taylorbok]

So you mean just holding the correction?

I mean that's an option for sure but even if you are going to dial it, the tree makes it much easier to estimate the correction if it's elevation and windage vs if you hit down in no where land on a more typical reticle with just the 2 stadia.

 

[Rob01]

I mean that's an option for sure but even if you are going to dial it, the tree makes it much easier to estimate the correction if it's elevation and windage vs if you hit down in no where land on a more typical reticle with just the 2 stadia.

Yeah of course but I was just a little confused by you saying true your solution versus make a correction.

 

[carbonbased]

Just more of a curiosity question but for PRS matches are competitors starting to trend back to more conventual scope recitals?

Are we talking about nuns giving recitals? Or about conventional scope reticles?

If not, hopefully we’re not discussing PRS rectals. Yeesh.

 

[Taylorbok]

Yeah of course but I was just a little confused by you saying true your solution versus make a correction.

Yes If your solution is spot on then you should only be making minor (hopefully) wind corrections and not have to worry about elevation. Those minor wind corrections should be easy to pick up on the main horizontal stadia and not need the Christmas tree

 

[beetroot]

Yup people complained about having to hold over/under and they caved. Same with KYLs but difference is holds are a useful skill that people should know how to do. We did them years back before there were tree reticles and no one complained. I remember those cries about the KYLs though. Mostly from guys who didn’t understand the reason for it and always lost points trying to clean it. I usually brought 2 maybe three rounds to the line with me.

Never shot a lot of spinners at matches but as long as it was weighted right it’s pretty fair but don’t miss them. Lol Shot one a month or so back at a regional match but see them more in Rimfire now.

I've been watching a few videos of recent PRS matches (I'm not in the US so not up to date with all things PRS).

Gotta say the matches were pretty dull, virtually no one ever timed out, only 8 or 2 shots per stage, more than enough time to dial every shot.
Every stage was the exact same with a different shaped barricade, no need to use a sling, all targets shot in order so no need to make decisions under time pressure.

Looked boring as hell TBH.

Need to throw in some off hand, sling shooting, actually movement (not 2 steps between barricades), and some short time limits.

 

[186thFCo]

I've been watching a few videos of recent PRS matches (I'm not in the US so not up to date with all things PRS).

Gotta say the matches were pretty dull, virtually no one ever timed out, only 8 or 2 shots per stage, more than enough time to dial every shot.
Every stage was the exact same with a different shaped barricade, no need to use a sling, all targets shot in order so no need to make decisions under time pressure.

Looked boring as hell TBH.

Need to throw in some off hand, sling shooting, actually movement (not 2 steps between barricades), and some short time limits.

I don't know what PRS match you were watching but all the matches I have been competed in had a minimum of 9 rounds per stage, mostly 10 rounds, and up to 12 rounds per stage and with the majority of the stages had several targets at varying ranges. Also I haven't ever had the need for a rifle sling for a stage, your not shooting off hand, the targets are way too far for that not to mention the rifles are too heavy to shoot off hand safely.

 

[Mike Casselton]

I've been watching a few videos of recent PRS matches (I'm not in the US so not up to date with all things PRS).

Gotta say the matches were pretty dull, virtually no one ever timed out, only 8 or 2 shots per stage, more than enough time to dial every shot.
Every stage was the exact same with a different shaped barricade, no need to use a sling, all targets shot in order so no need to make decisions under time pressure.

Looked boring as hell TBH.

Need to throw in some off hand, sling shooting, actually movement (not 2 steps between barricades), and some short time limits.

Ha! You just wanna see grown "men" crying like little girls.

Some of the complaints I've heard from competitors would blow your mind.

 

[Rob01]

Yes If your solution is spot on then you should only be making minor (hopefully) wind corrections and not have to worry about elevation. Those minor wind corrections should be easy to pick up on the main horizontal stadia and not need the Christmas tree

But corrections after a shot are only one reason for the tree. If you have limited time on a stage to engage multiple range targets then having the tree helps also when holding them all. Many other reasons also and especially when you get into Rimfire matches. It’s up to the shooters to figure what they want but I have never had a tree reticle stop me from seeing a miss and make a correction.

 

[Taylorbok]

But corrections after a shot are only one reason for the tree. If you have limited time on a stage to engage multiple range targets then having the tree helps also when holding them all. Many other reasons also and especially when you get into Rimfire matches. It’s up to the shooters to figure what they want but I have never had a tree reticle stop me from seeing a miss and make a correction.

That's fair. I try my best to not hold elevation.

 

[Cody S]

it depends a lot on the match director.
the recent one I attended in jackson was most excellent. tough enough to challenge and discern at the most talented, but still allow new people to make hits on most of the 10 stages. it was called the prone punisher. the punisher part is the spicy July weather.
I don't know where you find these boring easy matches, I'd love to try one or two as practice lol.

 

[Cody S]

Ha! You just wanna see grown "men" crying like little girls.

 

[beetroot]

Ha! You just wanna see grown "men" crying like little girls.

Some of the complaints I've heard from competitors would blow your mind.

It's a shame MDs bow down to that kind of behavior. I know any of the ones I know wouldn't.

 

[Taylorbok]

It's a shame MDs bow down to that kind of behavior. I know any of the ones I know wouldn't.

Meh. KYL went to TYL across the board

 

[Rob01]

Meh. KYL went to TYL across the board

But it's not the same. The crying was due to losing points in a KYL which is the reason for the stage and planning for it.

 

[Mike Casselton]

The KYL should be called, Face it, you suck.

People practice the stuff they are good at instead of practicing the stuff they suck at.

 

[carbonbased]

Meh. KYL went to TYL across the board

But it's not the same. The crying was due to losing points in a KYL which is the reason for the stage and planning for it.

What’s a TYL target? “To the limit” or something?

And it seems Rob is saying people don’t lose points now on this stage? Like, there’s no penalty for missing?

I seem to remember hearing the KYL stage punished people who didn’t stop at their limit (and missed).

I’m not a competitor so I don’t know what the rules are to begin with. I just find this stuff interesting. I own a some KYL targets and the little targets are haaard with 22LR.

 

[Taylorbok]

What’s a TYL target? “To the limit” or something?

And it seems Rob is saying people don’t lose points now on this stage? Like, there’s no penalty for missing?

I seem to remember hearing the KYL stage punished people who didn’t stop at their limit (and missed).

I’m not a competitor so I don’t know what the rules are to begin with. I just find this stuff interesting. I own a some KYL targets and the little targets are haaard with 22LR.

Test your limits.

That is correct, they stopped taking away points when you miss so it's no longer a Know your limits because there's no consequence if you miss.

 

[lash]

What’s a TYL target? “To the limit” or something?

And it seems Rob is saying people don’t lose points now on this stage? Like, there’s no penalty for missing?

I seem to remember hearing the KYL stage punished people who didn’t stop at their limit (and missed).

I’m not a competitor so I don’t know what the rules are to begin with. I just find this stuff interesting. I own a some KYL targets and the little targets are haaard with 22LR.

Test your limits.

That is correct, they stopped taking away points when you miss so it's no longer a Know your limits because there's no consequence if you miss.

In my PRS22 matches a tyl rack will often be ‘must hit to move on’. As such, while there are no points removed for missing, the penalty is there in the point you don’t get. Round count for the stage is usually the same as the number of targets you need to hit.
It definitely rewards taking time to break the correct shot.

 

[Cody S]

used to be back in like 2017 when I started dabbling it was the wild west. MD's devised all sorts of ways to brutally screw you over if you didn't know exactly how good you were.
did one where you got up to so many shots or until you missed.
did one where I think it was if you missed you got a 0 on the stage. I'm a bit fuzzy on the current rules now but that one aspect may be tame and there's no split second decision making about which target is most advantageous and guaranteed.
there is still plenty of potential for a great match.
me personally, I preferred wild west style. let the MD's use the targets and environment to the match's advantage however they see fit.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I've been watching a few videos of recent PRS matches (I'm not in the US so not up to date with all things PRS).

Gotta say the matches were pretty dull, virtually no one ever timed out, only 8 or 2 shots per stage, more than enough time to dial every shot.
Every stage was the exact same with a different shaped barricade, no need to use a sling, all targets shot in order so no need to make decisions under time pressure.

Looked boring as hell TBH.

Need to throw in some off hand, sling shooting, actually movement (not 2 steps between barricades), and some short time limits.

If its so easy you should be able to come out and clean everyone's clock. I bet baseball is boring too watching the future hall of famers hit a 500 foot home run off the best pitches in the world with ease.

Not sure what matches you are watching, but that is nothing like a typical PRS match, local or National.

 

[Cody S]

also the title says "Recital" not reticle if that's what op was going for.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Test your limits.

That is correct, they stopped taking away points when you miss so it's no longer a Know your limits because there's no consequence if you miss.

People got tired of the gimmicky shit. Same as shooting off ropes, floating platforms or any other dumb shit that has mostly (I say mostly because there are still shitty MD's out there....the vast majority who DO NOT SHOOT MATCHES) been weeded out. The rules and expectations have been more normalized like a sport. You dont play a football field that is 75 yards one week and 110 yard next week or requires 15 yards for a first down or 5 points for a field goal. Standardization is good, and helps normalize matches so points from one are somewhere near fair and equal to points at another match.

 

[lash]

Yes, we used to do negative points for hitting a hostage target instead of the BG, we used to mix rifle and pistol in a stage, we used UKD targets that had to be figured using your reticle an what information you had (Range Finders screwed that up), we used to make you run between sections of a stage to bring up heart rate, prone sideways, loophole, swinging platforms, weak side shooting, required mag changes on the clock, a single bag or no bag allowed, shooting off a hanging rope or pipe, and etc.

Then there began trends to triggers less than 2 lbs., which used to be the minimum for safety while moving, then heavy rifles and heavy competitors. Top guys would stretch the rules and they allowed competitors to argue their score on a stage or stages.

All in the name of “fairness” and to ensure a continuous flow of shooters at the big matches. Now a “skills test” is seeing how fast the top guys can complete a predetermined and heavily practiced stage that must be the same from venue to venue.

Changes come and no matter how many people swear that they want wildcat matches, attendance at same is abysmal unless some big name runs them with plenty of advertising beforehand.

 

[lash]

People got tired of the gimmicky shit. Same as shooting off ropes, floating platforms or any other dumb shit that has mostly (I say mostly because there are still shitty MD's out there....the vast majority who DO NOT SHOOT MATCHES) been weeded out. The rules and expectations have been more normalized like a sport. You dont play a football field that is 75 yards one week and 110 yard next week or requires 15 yards for a first down or 5 points for a field goal. Standardization is good, and helps normalize matches so points from one are somewhere near fair and equal to points at another match.

Sad…

 

[Cody S]

I like the no exercise stuff ive been to lately. im going to  shoot not hike 2 miles in the woods with 50lbs of shit on my back lol.
plus there's a lot of older gentlemen who like playing in the positional game but definitely don't have the body left to hike any significant distance and I'm all for them enjoying a good match.
I like hard shots, not a hard day, if that makes sense.

 

[Rob01]

Yes, we used to do negative points for hitting a hostage target instead of the BG, we used to mix rifle and pistol in a stage, we used UKD targets that had to be figured using your reticle an what information you had (Range Finders screwed that up), we used to make you run between sections of a stage to bring up heart rate, prone sideways, loophole, swinging platforms, weak side shooting, required mag changes on the clock, a single bag or no bag allowed, shooting off a hanging rope or pipe, and etc.

Then there began trends to triggers less than 2 lbs., which used to be the minimum for safety while moving, then heavy rifles and heavy competitors. Top guys would stretch the rules and they allowed competitors to argue their score on a stage or stages.

All in the name of “fairness” and to ensure a continuous flow of shooters at the big matches. Now a “skills test” is seeing how fast the top guys can complete a predetermined and heavily practiced stage that must be the same from venue to venue.

Changes come and no matter how many people swear that they want wildcat matches, attendance at same is abysmal unless some big name runs them with plenty of advertising beforehand.

Ah the olden days! LOL Definitely a different time for sure.

20" .308 and for anyone wondering what that thing hanging under the rifle is that is a sling. LOL

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Sad…

Why? People vote with their wallets and Attendance.

People shoot PRS matches because there are standards and an expectation of some level of parity.

People are free to shoot any wildcat matches they want.....its mostly shitty and new shooters who think all that bullshit is fun anyway. Its not practical, half of it is luck and there is a reason they have been pushed out of the dominant league.

Crying and bitching because you and 5 other people want to shoot some 2015 bullshit esq match doesn't accomplish anything. If people wanted to shoot those matches, there would be a market for them. Those types of matches and Shitty Match directors are highly correlated.

 

[Cody S]

Why? People vote with their wallets and Attendance.

People shoot PRS matches because there are standards and an expectation of some level of parity.

People are free to shoot any wildcat matches they want.....its mostly shitty and new shooters who think all that bullshit is fun anyway. Its not practical, half of it is luck and there is a reason they have been pushed out of the dominant league.

Crying and bitching because you and 5 other people want to shoot some 2015 bullshit esq match doesn't accomplish anything. If people wanted to shoot those matches, there would be a market for them. Those types of matches and Shitty Match directors are highly correlated.

People stopped shooting prs because they couldn't find funpowder and primers imho.
that and college is why I personally didn't shoot since about covid.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I like the no exercise stuff ive been to lately. im going to  shoot not hike 2 miles in the woods with 50lbs of shit on my back lol.
plus there's a lot of older gentlemen who like playing in the positional game but definitely don't have the body left to hike any significant distance and I'm all for them enjoying a good match.
I like hard shots, not a hard day, if that makes sense.

Exactly. Think of it as bowling or darts or Golf. Something you can do for fun or take really seriously and get good at it. Different people get different things but making something that is accessible to everyone (as well as approachable for kids, women and old folks) is the best way to grow it.

 

[lash]

Why? People vote with their wallets and Attendance.

People shoot PRS matches because there are standards and an expectation of some level of parity.

People are free to shoot any wildcat matches they want.....its mostly shitty and new shooters who think all that bullshit is fun anyway. Its not practical, half of it is luck and there is a reason they have been pushed out of the dominant league.

Crying and bitching because you and 5 other people want to shoot some 2015 bullshit esq match doesn't accomplish anything. If people wanted to shoot those matches, there would be a market for them. Those types of matches and Shitty Match directors are highly correlated.

You are a funny little man that loves to start calling names when someone doesn’t agree with you 100%, aren’t you? And you obviously didn’t read what I wrote previously, because only what you say matters.

Sound about right to you?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

People stopped shooting prs because they couldn't find funpowder and primers imho.
that and college is why I personally didn't shoot since about covid.

No they didn't. People who shot PRS continued to shoot PRS. The numbers went up in fact. You can look at Sheldons spreadsheet he has been tracking since 2020 or 2021. Matches still fill up and people who wanted to shoot, found a way to get components and other shit needed to compete. I'm sure a few lazy or poor people stopped shooting, but for every one of them, 2 or 3 new people showed up. Match attendance through the "hard times" never really went down.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

You are a funny little man that loves to start calling names when someone doesn’t agree with you 100%, aren’t you? And you obviously didn’t read what I wrote previously, because only what you say matters.

Sound about right to you?

No I read it you just made a bunch of half hearted complaints about how things used to be. I didn't call you any names. We know what the sport used to be, and if you want that kinda shit go shoot mammoth or something similar.

I shot an outlaw match with all kinds of snipery school shit this winter. Ended up winning the match, beating one of the best shooters in the country. Why? It was gimmicky as shit and 99/100 that shooter would clean my clock even at a gimmicky match. At a real match, I dont have a chance. I didn't feel good after winning, in fact, i felt kinda shitty. The best shooter didnt win, I just got super lucky.

Your Midpack shooters today are MUCH better marksman than your average PRO or top 20 guy was back then. The game has evolved. Equipment has gotten much better. There are way more resources for people to get better. Targets are smaller and par times are shorter, yet we see more impacts.

You can make the game "hard" ( and anyone who doesnt think PRS is a challenging and hard sport, feel free to go shoot one and see how you stack up) in other ways without a bunch of silly shit.

-People dont want gimmiks
-People dont want wobbly props
-They dont want to have to use a sling or shoot offhand

None of those things really increase peoples marksmanship. Its some luck and some risk. The way you make better shooters is by making the targets smaller and reducing the time to shoot. You still have to have all the fundamentals, build a good position, Read the wind, break clean shots, follow through and have good decision making if you want to be successful at all.