Night Vision Range Finders

[Night Assassin]

Hi All , I just want to share my experience I have so far with the Wilcox RAPTAR S/ES version. To start I would like to say I'm not very good and reports so bear with me.
First off getting the RAPTAR aligned with the day scope optic was very easy as all 4 lasers of the RAPTAR are slaved together, Using the visual laser I was able to preform the 100 yard zero easily. The second, fine tune zero is done at 1000 yards, which I did in the evening to make it easier to see the laser.
You can calibrate the RAPTAR's cant once it is mounted on the rifle, you also set the inclination at level.

The unit is the one with Civilian power IR Illuminator so to cover that right off the bat it isn't very impressive compared to a Full power PEQ 15 but that is fully understandable and not one of the reasons I purchased it. On a positive note for the IR illuminator the light it provides is cleaner that that of the PEQ, just not as powerful.
The main attraction for me was the Ballistic solver along with the range finder. I find one of my weaknesses is remembering my DOPE while shooting at several unknown distances. Especially if I'm switching calibers between the 6.5 and the 308. The RAPTAR is able to store several guns in its library.
The RAPTAR also has a built in weather station that helps with the ballistic solution, also using the compass for heading and a built in Cant and Inclination meter it helps with the long shots.
So setting up the ballistic solver was easy to get it trued to my Shooter APP and checked the numbers with the Ballistics AE app.
The RAPTAR allows you to fine tune the Solver. You can enter seen impacts at two- five different locations, it asks you to do it at MACH 1 and MACH 2.
After some minor adjustments I was getting first found impacts on a MOA plate at 1000 yards.
Some daytime use on a sunny morning I was able to range a cell phone tower at a little over 2000 yards. The Ballistic solver actually gave me a hold!
Very impressed with that, its advertised as a 1550 Meter . I was able to hit a telephone pole at 2100 yards, in direct sun!
I took it out one night so far on a Coyote hunt, was running my PVS 30 and it was nice to be able to range get a drop and engage targets at unknown distances instantly. I didn't think to try it out past 2000 at night but I'm sure its possible easily!
So sorry for the unorganized review, pics to follow and if I missed anything or if there are any questions hit me up.

 

[Night Assassin]

 

[Night Assassin]

Picture #3 this was the cell phone tower, on the display of the RAPTAR you can see on the left, Dope for elevation, and wind ,there was no value entered, that was accounted for spin drift. On the right hand of the display the five horizontal bars will change to hash marks it the rifle is canted in either direction.

The second picture is the range of a telephone pole, No shots were taken.. LOL

 

[wigwamitus]

Thanks NA !

And to reader, NA and I agreed to collaborate on this thread and dump all the data we have on range finders in here. We're prejudiced towards night shooting and probably towards rifle mounted range finders, but didn't want to restrict ourselves.

And we also hope to do a detailed comparison between the RAPTAR S/ES, the VSO and the Radius, etc.

And of course all are more than welcome to jump in and participate !!!

 

[wigwamitus]

Thoughts regarding Range Finder, flavors and use cases:


Handheld range finders
These work well during the day time for general scanning and ranging. For ranging specific small targets, such as steel at long distances sometimes a means of steadying is required, though often ranging the ground near the target is sufficient.
Handheld range finders can also be used at night in conjunction with PVS-14 to spot the ir-laser and guide it on to the target. A magnifier on the front of the 14 can extend the distance the ir-laser can be spotted and hence the ranging distance. I've been able to get out to 800yds max with this method.
I've used my Bushnell 16 00 Arc Elite for 4.5 years both day and night, extensively and to be honest, it can do probably 95% of what I need to do, day or night. And it was around $400 shipped back in April 2014.

Binocular range finders can add improved image and CA for improved detection. A question for me is whether it is better to separate binos and range finders with the thought the bino lens technology changes more slowly than RF technology. I see a lot of 3-6 year old RF binos for sale out there. One guy I talked to solved this issue by deciding to sell his RF binos every 3 years and get a new pair. I'm not sure RF binos are high enough priority for me to do that, but I admit I realize I've been doing that with thermals. So with the gear you prioritize #1, if might be worth doing frequent tech refreshes. But due to the higher cost of the RF binos this is an open question.


Ballistic range finders can add information for holds. But non standard algorithms do not always match with industry standard solutions such as Applied Ballistics. Though they may match close enough for shorter distances. I'm looking hard at the SigAB2400.

Rifle mounted range finders
At night, rifle mounted range finders can range much further and more accurately. Farther, because the darkness improves the performance of the range finders and more accurately because the use of the day scope reticle in conjunction with either a NV or thermal clipon provides more magnification and hence smaller aiming point for the range finder. I've been able to detect and range cattle out to 5,300 yds at night with rifle mounted range finders and a thermal clipon.
In my case, in particular, ranging between small gaps in the vegetation is very useful and something that is easier for the rifle mounted range finders because they have more magnification to enable more precise aiming of the range finder.

Adding Ballistics to the rifle mounted range finders, might be mostly a speed thing. I have a lot of hills around me. The VSO displays the elevation hold including the adjustment for inclination. So no calculations required. Just read the hold, hold and shoot. So for multiple targets at different ranges and hilly terrain, the probably of getting more hits is increased.

Summary: Day or night, handheld range finders can be used to quickly range a group of targets and terrain features without requiring setting up a tripod or gun.
Ranging binos add additional detection and PID capability during the day.

Rifle mounted range finders used in conjunction with NV or thermal clipons allow precision ranging at night over great distances and can be used in the day as well, over shorter distances. Ballistics range finders can increase the speed of making shots due skipping additional referencing to DOPE and calculations due to wind and inclination.

In general I've gotten about 2-3 times as much ranging distance at night as I have in the day time. I've gotten the greatest detection and precise ranging distances with thermal clipon.

So actually all these widgets have their place, the handheld ranger, the bino ranger and the rifle mounted ranger.

 

[Night Assassin]

I know I didn’t mention that the RAPTAR has Bluetooth and can be linked to the Kestrel 5700 series. Once connected you have two choices of operation one is using the Ballistic Solver from the RAPTAR , and only using the wind and weather readings from the kestrel. Or you can use the ballistic solver in the kestrel and it will read on the RAPTAR screen.

 

[wigwamitus]

We need to do up a feature comparison check list !!!

 

[Night Assassin]

We need to do up a feature comparison check list !!!

Agree

 

[wigwamitus]

here's the first draft

==
Ballistics RIfle Mounted Range Finder Feature List

01 - Bluetooth connection to Kestrel 5700: VSO(yes)
02 - Bluetooth connection to phone app for SW updates and rifle/ammo ballistics data entry and transfer to LRF: VSO(yes)
03 - Internal weather station, also configurable to default to manual entries or to default to kestrel: VSO(yes)
04 - Meters or Yards: VSO(yes)
05 - Displays holds for elevation and wind: VSO(yes)
06 - Displays wind speed and direction: VSO(yes)
07 - Displays cant: VSO(yes)
08 - Displays inclination: VSO(yes)
09 - Displays compass heading: VSO(yes)
10 - wireless remote contro;: VSO(yes)
11 - wired remote control: VSO(no)
12 - ranging laser frequency: VSO(960nm)
13 - Adjustable pulse count for ranging: VSO(yes, 6 settings)
14 - maximum ballistic ranging distance: VSO(2734yds)
15 - Maximum observed ranging distance day: VSO(1545yds)
16 - Maximum observed ranging distance night: VSO(5300yds)
17 - Maximum observed battery life - at temp X: VSO(19 hrs @70F)
18 - Weight: VSO(14.5 OZ)

NA, please feel free to copy into the post below this and update and then I will update mine. I guess we have to have two versions, one for you and one for me, since we cannot both update the same one?

 

[wigwamitus]

Non-Ballistic Rifle Mounted Range Finder Feature List

01 - Meters or Yards: RAPTAR ES (yes), Radius (yes)
02 - Wired Remote: RAPTAR ES (yes), Radius (yes)
03 - Ranging laser frequency: RAPTAR ES(1550), Radius(nv visible)
04 - Maximum observed ranging distance day: RAPTAR ES(750yds), Radius(750yds)
05 - Maximum observed ranging distance night: RAPTAR ES(1850yds), Radius(3300yds)
06 - Maximum observed battery life - at temp X: RAPTAR ES(n/a), Radius(n/a)
07 - Weight: RAPTAR ES(10.9 OZ), Radius(18.2 OZ)

 

[Night Assassin]

Ballistics RIfle Mounted Range Finder Feature List RAPTAR S/ES

01 - Bluetooth connection to Kestrel 5700: RAPTAR (yes)
02 - Bluetooth connection to phone app for SW updates and rifle/ammo ballistics data entry and transfer to LRF: RAPTAR (NO appears to only connect to Kestrel but i could be wrong)
03 - Internal weather station, also configurable to default to manual entries or to default to kestrel: RAPTAR (yes)
04 - Meters or Yards: RAPTAR (yes)
05 - Displays holds for elevation and wind: RAPTAR (yes)
06 - Displays wind speed and direction: RAPTAR (yes)
07 - Displays cant: RAPTAR (yes)
08 - Displays inclination: RAPTAR (yes)
09 - Displays compass heading: RAPTAR (yes)
10 - wireless remote contro;: RAPTAR (no )
11 - wired remote control: RAPTAR (yes)
12 - ranging laser frequency: RAPTAR (1550nm) LRF can't be seen with NV.
13 - Adjustable pulse count for ranging: RAPTAR(yes normal and enhanced)
14 - maximum ballistic ranging distance: RAPTAR (2107yds) because I'm limited in sight distance, will update this!
15 - Maximum observed ranging distance day: RAPTAR(2107yds) a telephone pole
16 - Maximum observed ranging distance night: RAPTAR(2107 yds) limited distance...
17 - Maximum observed battery life - at temp X: RAPTAR(haven't left it on all day but have used it for two weeks on same battery. AV Temp 50 )
18 - Weight: RAPTAR (11. OZ)

 

[wigwamitus]

This ^^ is a typical setup I use for zeroing an LRF (whether it be RAPTAR, Radius or VSO). And here is the proocess:

01 - Take rifle as above, and tripod outside at night.
02 - Setup tripod and mount rifle.
03 - Remove Thermal clipon.
04 - Power up PVS-14 and aim at zeroing target, ideally a relatively small hard man made object as far away as possible. I typically use a mineral feeder at 415 yds from my setup position. This is not perfect. I'd rather have something 1,000yds away. But 415yds is a balance. The object is highly available. I can setup right outside my house and zero to that object. Whereas zeroing to an object 1,000yds away takes much more effort. Also many objects and critters I am ranging are under 600yds. So the 415yd zero works from a practical perspective, even though it is not perfect.

05 - CO-witness the aiming laser in the LRF to the center of the day scope reticle. This process approximates the "inifinity zero" which is the goal. There are other processes which can be used. This is the one we use and trust because we've seen it work in the field many times.

06 - Reinstall thermal clipon and test again multiple known distant objects. Repeat if required.

==
Now there are a few variations we use:

11 - If an i2 clipon is being used, the no PVS-14 is required. Otherwise the process is the same.

21 - If you want to zero the LRF to a thermal SCOPE, the way we do that requires 2 people with radios. But it is totally do-able.

 

[wigwamitus]

Process used last night to zero 2nd radius to Trijicon Mk3 60mm ...

==
01 - Setup 5.56(10.3) on RRS tripod
02 - Setup 7.62(22) on Manfrotto tripod just to the right of the 5.56(10.3)
03 - Aim reticle of mk3 60mm on 5.56(10.3) at center of mineral feeder at 415yds.
04 - With PVS-14 on rear of NF scope, aim center of 7.62(22) reticle at the mineral feeder.
05 - Turn on the radius aiming laser.
06 - Adjust the radius aiming laser so it is pointed at the mineral feeder, use helmet mounted 14 to get into the ball park.
07 - Keep checking the 5.56(10.3) to make sure the center of the thermal reticle is aimed at the center of the mineral feeder.
08 - Fine tune the Radius on the 5.56(10.3) by checking on the 7.62(22) with the 14 behind.
09 - Once the Radius on the 5.56(10.3) is zeroed, test several known distance targets. Aim the 5.56(10.3) thermal reticle at the target and check the range. Repeat steps 07, 08 and 09 if needed
==

 

[Squibbler]

Anybody try a Newcon?

http://www.newcon-optik.com/products/laser-rangefinders/seeker-m/

 

[Night Assassin]

Anybody try a Newcon?

http://www.newcon-optik.com/products/laser-rangefinders/seeker-m/

I looked into that briefly, if I recall it was about 3K, for the money I thought the RAPTAR ES was a better option if you don’t want the ballistic solver. I’m sure there are way more RAPTARS being used compared to it!

 

[Squibbler]

I looked into that briefly, if I recall it was about 3K, for the money I thought the RAPTAR ES was a better option if you don’t want the ballistic solver. I’m sure there are way more RAPTARS being used compared to it!

Yeah the "S" version is 3k and the "M" more like 6k. I'm all about buying "value" ...and if the Raptar is it, then count me in.
My next rangefinder purchase is going to be in the 1550 nm class. I want to purchase an ELR capable rangefinder, so in my mind that means being able to range targets during the day at 2k+. My thoughts are that a weapon mounted option will be my best option due to being able to use the scope magnification to achieve precise aiming points at distance. Essentially using the weapon as your stabilizer vs a tripod and a scope as your mag vs the spotter. Also with a weapon mounted LRF I can double duty as my night time LRF, thus killing multiple birds with one purchase. I have the radius and love it...if only Silencerco would develop an option in the 1550nm class.. .. I'd be all over that!

 

[Night Assassin]

Well as you can see in the pictures above I purchased the one with the ballistic rangefinder a built-in and I’m very happy with it. In direct sunlight I was able to range a telephone pole at a little over 2000 yards

 

[Squibbler]

Well as you can see in the pictures above I purchased the one with the ballistic rangefinder a built-in and I’m very happy with it. In direct sunlight I was able to range a telephone pole at a little over 2000 yards

Good to know. Can you get out to 3k with the unit? And if so, what size target/reflectivity? Does the unit hold POA/zero well? I know that is one of my complaints with the radius is the mounting system and a small amount of flex in horizontal/vertical adjustment mounts. If you don't mind me asking what the unit cost you and where is a good place to get one?

 

[Night Assassin]

Good to know. Can you get out to 3k with the unit? And if so, what size target/reflectivity? Does the unit hold POA/zero well? I know that is one of my complaints with the radius is the mounting system and a small amount of flex in horizontal/vertical adjustment mounts. If you don't mind me asking what the unit cost you and where is a good place to get one?

So where i live i can't get past 2100 yards. I was able to get a first try reading on a wood telephone pole.
The RAPTAR has a redesigned mount that is solid I'm my opinion. I have carried it around in a drag bag for a week, in and out of the truck for hunting and i haven't had to re zero it ever.
I was able to get a great deal at Optics planet. It was on sale for i think $6500 and i found a 13% off so it was $5700. My state charges sales tax on internet purchases now which sucks so that brought it to $6100.....
I have a 12% off code if needed..

 

[wigwamitus]

As to the radius “flex” ... yes there is some ... but I have not found it to make it any less accurate over time than the raptor or the vso. I had the radius retain zero on a 556(18) for 3 months and I take my guns to the field and fall down and bang them on the ground, get them muddy, etc. that said whether a raptor or a radius or a vso, I check the zeros often. And sometimes they are dead on and sometimes they need to be adjusted. Same as with my ir aiming lasers. I check them. I don’t expect any two devices to retain alignment given the way my guns get banged around in the field.
And I can buy 8 radiae for the price of one raptor or maybe 10-11 ballistics raptors. So for me the radius definitely has a spot in my line up.
Compared to the raptor es ... I would definitely rather have 6 to 8 radiate.

as to ballistics lrfs ... they are nice but are they worth the extra cash ?
I am still trying to wrestle with that question.
I can memorize my DOPE at 50 yd increments ... my elevation DOPE and if I am using wind dot reticle, then I don’t need to do any calculations for my wind holds. Make my wind call in mph and hold that mph. So all I need is the elevation DOPE out to 1000 at 50yd increments and I can memorize that for my primary ammo. Then it is temperature and inclination. And on my land 97% of my shots are under 4 degrees and I can use my own HPR (heading, pitch and roll) which displays cosine and d that calculation if needed for the 3% ... I am just talking out loud. But wondering why I really need a ballistic range finder.

it is nice but do I really need it . Still asking myself that.

Now some range finders, like the vso can range farther than others. I do most of my ranging and shooting at night where is ranging conditions are much enhanced. I have ranged 5,300yds and many distances over 3,000 yds with the vso. The radius I have ranged with over 3,000 yds many times. Is that good enough? How accurate to I need to know a distance over 2,000 yds at? If I am not going to shoot a distance or call in artillery (I was in the artillery) or air strike, knowing whether a hill is 3,500 yds or 4,000 yds is probably enough. I can plan my actions accordingly .. and I can get that close with a map.

So do I need a vertronix 5,000 or 10,000 or 20,000 yd range finder ? It would be nice but maybe I don’t.
Shooting critter at night will probably not ever happen over 500yds and rarely over 300yds ... and will a radius and a wind dot reticle and memorizing my elevation DOPE at 50yd intervals get that done ? I think so. So still cogitating on why I need ballistic range finders or even long distance range finders.

All discussion on these topics welcome !!!

 

[Squibbler]

So where i live i can't get past 2100 yards. I was able to get a first try reading on a wood telephone pole.
The RAPTAR has a redesigned mount that is solid I'm my opinion. I have carried it around in a drag bag for a week, in and out of the truck for hunting and i haven't had to re zero it ever.
I was able to get a great deal at Optics planet. It was on sale for i think $6500 and i found a 13% off so it was $5700. My state charges sales tax on internet purchases now which sucks so that brought it to $6100.....
I have a 12% off code if needed..

Thanks for that... I might take you up on that offer. Just haven't decided yet. Otherwise as you use the unit more, please continue to share your findings. Thanks!

 

[Squibbler]

As to the radius “flex” ... yes there is some ... but I have not found it to make it any less accurate over time than the raptor or the vso. I had the radius retain zero on a 556(18) for 3 months and I take my guns to the field and fall down and bang them on the ground, get them muddy, etc. that said whether a raptor or a radius or a vso, I check the zeros often. And sometimes they are dead on and sometimes they need to be adjusted. Same as with my ir aiming lasers. I check them. I don’t expect any two devices to retain alignment given the way my guns get banged around in the field.
And I can buy 8 radiate for the price of one raptor or maybe 10-11 ballistics raptors. So for me the radius differently has a spot in my line up.
Compared to the raptor es ... I would definitely rather have 6 to 8 radiate.

as to ballistics leafs ... they are nice but are they worth the extra cash ?
I am still trying to wrestle with that question.
I can memorize my DOPE at 50 yd increments ... my elevation DOPE and if I am using wind dot reticle, then I don’t need to do any calculations for my wind holds. Make my wind call in mph and hold that mph. So all I need is the elevation DOPE out to 1000 at 50yd increments and I can memorize that for my primary ammo. Then it is temperature and inclination. And on my land 97% of my shots are under 4 degrees and I can use my own HPR (heading, pitch and roll) which displays cosine and d that calculation if needed for the 3% ... I am just talking out loud. But wondering why I really need a ballistic range finder.

it is nice but do I really need it . Still asking myself that.

Now some range finders, like the vso can range farther that others. I do most of my ranging and shooting at night where is ranging conditions are much enhanced. I have ranged 5,300yds and many distances over 3,000 yds with the vso. The radius I have ranged with over 3,000 yds many times. Is that good enough? How accurate to I need to know a distance over 2,000 yds at? If I am not going to shoot a distance or call in artillery (I was in the artillery) or air strike, knowing whether a hill is 3,500 yds or 4,000 yds is probably enough. I can plan my actions accordingly .. and I can get that close with a map.

So do I need a vertronix 5,000 or 10,000 or 20,000 yd range finder ? It would be nice but maybe I don’t.
Shooting critter at night will probably happen over 500yds and rarely over 300yds ... and will a radius and a wind dot reticle and memorizing my elevation DOPE at 50yd intervals get that done ? I think so. So still cogitating on why I need ballistic range finders or even long distance range finders.

All discussion on these topics welcome !!!

All extremely valid points and many of the same arguments in my head as well. Hence, my suggestion of a radius with 1550nm with improved mount and maybe shave a little weight at a $2-3k price. I simply want the 1550 nm to get the distance no matter what the conditions--bright sunlight, haze, mist, non-reflective, smaller size aiming points, etc. And if that can be done with consistently at 2k+, then I'm "all in". As far as ballistics, it's
not a deal breaker for me, I see advantage either way. With ballistic--provides a scenario with less "thinking" involved and constant awareness of environmental changes--especially even those little differences matter. Without ballistic--its good to know the rifles trajectory and not become electronic dependent and easier on the wallet.

Wig -- off the topic-- I finally picked up a patrol from Jay per your suggestion... great recommendation!! Thanks for that!?

 

[wigwamitus]

Wanted to document night ranging process I've used since late 2013 (5 years) ...

This involves using Bushy 1600 Arc Elite range finder (it was $350 to my door back then) and PVS-14 on head. Note for me, I mostly did this with a dual bridge with 2 PVS-14s. The process would have to be modified slightly if using a single PVS-14 or the left or right eye. Basically you want the range finder on the eye without the PVS-14 ... leaving the PVS-14 alone to function normally on the other eye.

==
Assumption - ModArmory/IC bridge with two PVS-14s is on head. Bushy arc elite 1600 in pouch on belt.

01 - Look at target
02 - Remove LRF from pouch
03 - flip up right side PVS-14
04 - Anchor LRF against ic bridge and left side pvs-14
05 - aim lrf at the ground and observe the ir-pulses with the pvs-14
06 - continue to pulse, guiding the ir pulses onto the target
07 - range the target 3 times to be sure the distance is accurate. Guiding the ir pulse with the pvs-14 and read the resulting distance with the other, unaided eye.
08- When done ranging all targets, return LRF to pouch and flip down 2nd PVS-14

 

[wigwamitus]

For those interested in conditions under which range finders (LRF) perform better or worse, here is a nice chart of the manual for new (to me) Zeiss 10x45 RF binos. I'll do a review on them once I've gotten some more time outside with them.
Anyway, here is the chart showing the performance changes due to environmental conditions.

 

[wigwamitus]

Squib, so u think 1550nm will range better in poor ranging conditions ? Tell me more !! Why do you think that !? That's new to me !!
Might make me more interested in the 1550 devices, right now they just look more expensive.

 

[Squibbler]

Squib, so u think 1550nm will range better in poor ranging conditions ? Tell me more !! Why do you think that !? That's new to me !!
Might make me more interested in the 1550 devices, right now they just look more expensive.

I learned something trying to answer this question. I was under the assumption the reason military grade lasers used the 1550 nm wavelength was due to superiority in wavelength comparative to the 905nm. When in actuality it has to do with eye safety.

So just in comparison of wavelength, the 905 nm wavelength performed better in adverse conditions compared to the 1550 nm. The smaller 905 nm wavelength had anywhere from 10% to 60% better performance for a variety of adverse environmental conditions compared to 1550nm. This was due to the smaller wavelength and it's inherently natural penetrative ability. See attached reference by Jacek Wojtanowski--Comparison of 905 vs. 1550 nm.

So why do military grade lasers use 1550nm then? Cal Zant answered this question perfectly in his write-up. Very simply, since 905 nm is not an eye safe wavelength it has be pushed with a low wattage of power. Whereas, 1550 nm is an eye safe wavelength, it can be pushed with extremely high power of wattage. According to Zant's article it can be a 10,000x order of magnitude difference in wattage.

Here are the screenshots of the the article that highlights the information and here is the link.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/08/26/extreme-long-range-tips-spotting-shots-ranging/

 

[wigwamitus]

Very cool !!! Thanks for the data !!

 

[cake5150]

Good info here, thanks gents. Yesterday I was able to get out to ~2630 yards with both my Radius rangefinders during the day with cloud cover. That is the furthest I've ever been able to get a return before dusk/nighttime. Both were attached/zeroed to the same spotting scope and read to within a few yards of each other... at almost a mile and a half. Nighttime personal best was ~3500 yd. It's even a ton of fun to play with them not attached to a rifle. I love these things

 

[wigwamitus]

The farthest for sure ranges I have gotten from the rifle mounted range finder during the day is 750yds with the VSO and the raptar. With the radius only 550yds
Now I don't use them much in the day, I use them a lot at night. I did try real hard to range some galvanized tin buckets at 900yds and could not. This on a day where the VSO was able to range out to 1500yds. It was mist that day.
There is a ridge to my west with a few trees on top and once I ranged a tree there with bushy 1600 arc elite in the day at 1858. But otherwise only at night with other range finders
I have gotten false readings of a mile and a half with the radius on many occasions. I think when it doesn't know, it shows a number around 2450 ... Even for something under 100yds away. Well at least mine do and I have two.
So I think a lot depends on the conditions.
We should all keep using these devices and report any interesting results !!

 

[Night Assassin]

Some very good info in this thread Thanks Sqibbler,
WIG, Im surprised at the 750 range with the VSO and your RAPTAR.
Very interesting

 

[wigwamitus]

... surprised at the 750 range with the VSO and your RAPTAR ...

Again, I haven't tried much in the day time. I will try more and report back !

 

[wigwamitus]

After zeroing radius on new 7.62(20) + Bravo and firing 200yds in the past week ... the mount screw for the radius DID come loose ... and that did affect the zero of the radius ... I am actually still able to use the radius ... I was able to figure out it is low ... about 10yds low at 500yds ... but I will need to re-zero. So net/net, this means I'll need to add it to the "check every time before you go out" list of screws ...
And on the Bravo that is a Lot ... the sling/stock mount comes loose every 3 days ... usually it comes loose in the house, but today it came loose in the field. I was very lucky and able to recover the hardware. I finally broke down and followed massoud's recommendation to use loctite ... we will see how long it lasts with the loctite. Unfortunately, I use the hecque out of my slings ... today I took the bravo gun out to the pasture for the first attempt at 500yds steel (4 out of 5 hits) ... and so I'm riding on the 4 - wheeler with the gun slung on my chest ... that's a posture where you are trusting the sling won't come loose ! And the harris bipod is also coming loose every time I fire it ... so apparenly 7.62 rounds by the 100s are shakin' the trees !!

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Y’all are doing it all wrong..... lol
The farthest range that I’ve gotten thus far is only 6200 yards.

 

[wigwamitus]

Are you sure you got all the parts pointin' in the right directions !!

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Are you sure you got all the parts pointin' in the right directions !!

Haha it took me a while to get it redneck collimated but it’s way better than I expected it to be honestly. I’ve used it before but with a different mount I made, I just made this mount and it’s better.

 

[wigwamitus]

First real field use of the Zeiss 10x45 LRF binos today, at least in a shooting scenario.

The binos were able to range all the targets accuracy and easily. Including the 750yd target which is thru the tops of some trees, so a rather narrow shot to lase thru those tree tops. I'm shooting down hill across the creek into another (of my) pastures on the other side.

I also used the 3x multiplier on the left barrel. That way I had 30x on that barrel and the 10x LRF on the right barrel.

I was able to see splotches on the steel targets from the hits, though it one case a preexisting non-shot related nik in the paint was called as a hit splotch, when the real splotch was much harder (impossible) to see. Since I painted the targets grey, seeing the targets and the splotches is much hard !

So the binos saw the yellow (paint underneath that weather wore away) as the hit splotch on this 500yd target, whereas you can see the real splotch to the right of it. This caused me to double my wind hold for the next shot, which was the more difficult "face" shot (these are ipsc (2/3) with 6x6 face and 12x18 body). I almost missed too far to the right, but barely did not.

This "game" scores penalty points for a miss and you have to get one hit on each target before you can progress to the next. A score of 0 is perfect. My score today was "2" as I missed the first shot at 750yds.

So, the above error was not the binos fault, it was mine, I should've at least studied the target with the binos before shooting it. I actually should've inspected and repainted the targets before shooting !!

The comanche bag works. I got the real tripod mount, but apparent need a mount to mount the mount on and I don't have that so using the commanche bag for now.

 

[wigwamitus]

I forgot to try to take thru lens pics thru the binos, but here is one thru the rifle scope.

Today, I was using the MP/Rem700/7.62(22)/Criterion Barrel with xtr2 3-15x scr-mil on top and testing some "Colt Match" sierra 155gr TMK by "double tap" ... the MV was 2774 at 28F yesterday. Today the temp was right around 25F all day.

The scope worked fine and I didn't have to dial for any of the shots, I was able to hold both the elevation and the wind.

Oh, that shot is from the 500yd FP at the 500yd targets and the scope is on 15x.

 

[Strykervet]

I'd love to have a rifle mounted LRF but they stopped production on the Radius, right? And the Wilcox is just too expensive for me, especially with the watered down illuminator. That just won't fly with a PVS30. Those two are the only real contenders, right? Really should've bought a couple Radius when they came out, didn't see that coming.

I went through a divorce so it changed what I was gonna be able to do regarding a spotting setup. I wanted a Hensoldt and a Vectronix but wound up with a USO observation scope in 10-40x and an LRR-104 MK5 LRF good to six miles, both for $1000 shipped. So far I'm pleased with it. I'd still like a nicer spotter but I don't think a better LRF for the price can be had, not at $400.

A few members on the 'Hide kicked in some support and help and made the SS mount it all connects to, another fellow made an industrial plastic USO to PVS14 adapter and I threaded it with helicoils and installed polymer bolts. Some other mods were made and it's not finished but here's what I have so far:

The idea is to take the PEQ's laser and zero it to infinity on the observation scope's reticle. It'll all be off a little, but I'm hoping at range it won't matter. Eventually a kestrel and a PDA will be added for ballistics calculation.

So the idea is to look through the observation scope with the PVS14 and when I can laze the target with the PEQ, I should be able to tap the LRF and get a reading despite not being able to see through it. So far it seems to need some work as at 100m it came close to burning in. Not sure if the scope magnifies the laser radiation or if it sat in one place too long. But it's a solid idea, if I can get it to work like I want at night. During the day it's a very solid setup indeed. The LRF has a 7x day viwer and a Class 4 laser, an Nd:Yag @1064nm and 500mW to 1Watt I'm guessing in power. It's capable of ablating the retina completely off, has an optical density of 14 on the viewer, and at that power it's just dangerous to anyone around. The 1550's and others came literally the year after mine was made, so they stopped issuing these. But that powerful laser did solve the problem of lasing a truck size target at 10,000m within +/- 10m and it not be visible w/night vision. I just have to be careful as hell with it. But it's not something you see everyday. Was like winning the Ebay lottery IMO.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

These things turn up from time to time, if you buy one just be damn careful with it.

 

[wigwamitus]

... idea is to take the PEQ's laser and zero it to infinity on the observation scope's reticle. It'll all be off a little, but I'm hoping at range it won't matter.

He's my theory.
I infinitely zero to my mineral feeder at 415 yds with the day scope reticle ...
So my range finder center is offset on the rifle by x inches from the day scope center. If I am "dead on" at 415 yds in terms of my co-witness ... then by twice that distance, 815yds .. the divergence of the zero will be back to approaching that same x inches.
Short version ... I think I'm good out to double the distance of my infinity zero target. And will I be shooting at night farther than that? Not likely !
And I can range terrain much farther and know things like "those cows are at 1852yds ... and if I needed to take action on that, I'd know the distance. But such action would be moving, not shooting.

... be damn careful with it

... totally agree ... that is a weapon !!!

 

[Strykervet]

Thanks man, you've always got quite the night setups and I enjoy your posts. Like you said, it's only good for so far at night, the PVS30 usually hits it's limit around 1k, 1.2k depending. I could probably zero the laser out to 2000m and superimpose that on the reticle with the help of a buddy and a radio. That's probably what I'll do. That and keep exposure down so I don't get burn in. A flip cap that'd fit that USO scope would be awesome but nobody makes one, not anyone I know of.

 

[wigwamitus]

Aye. With a buddy and a radio ... getting an accurate zero on the LRF at distance X, will make you as accurate as the offset on the device out to double that distance.

And if you see any reflective surface in your FOV, like a street sign ... avoid it ...

 

[wigwamitus]

Am adding this one to the list ... I've asked about it off and on for several years ... I've only been able to talk to one person who actually used it in the field. I didn't get much detail, but he "liked it".
If you have either a Zeus Std or a Zeus Pro (or Apollos) and the right cable (must be specified when ordering) then you can connect the LRF to the thermal and see the range displayed on the thermal screen.
They are 905nm. And no ballistics. So closer to the Radius is form and fit.

http://www.nightvision4less.com/armasight-amrf2200-advanced-modular-range-finder.aspx

 

[wigwamitus]

Christmas in March ... I traded in the VSO on a RAPTAR S/ES back in January ... and to my surprise the RAPTAR finally arrived today ... Thanks Jason at Euro for being so accomodating !!!

Now NA has to teach me how to used the danged thing !!

 

[wigwamitus]

I realize I did not post about new (to me back in Nov 2018) LRF binos. These are Zeiss Victory 10x45.

In shown configuration, the range finder is usable via the right side barrel and there is a 3x multiplier on the left barrel which provides a net 30x on that side. So this critter is usable as pure binos ... as a range finder ... and as a spotting scope. That flexibility is why I picked Zeiss.

I got an Alaska Guides chest pouch to go with it.

This is a good pouch if you are only doing day things and not planning on much lifting ...

... more to come ...

 

[wigwamitus]

Ok, so the Zeiss 10x45, as binos, are top tier. I've looked thru Liecas and Swrorowskis and for me they are all the same ... really GREAT !
The field of view of the Z 10x45 is also amazing ... almost like your eyeballs are magnified.

With the 3x multiplier attached I can see splotches on steel out to 750yds ... as far as I've tried ... the image is not as pristinely clear as I expected, but I don't know if that is to be expected or not. If without the mutliplier these binos are a 5 out of 5 on resolution, then with the 3x they are about a 4.5. Still very useful in 30x mode.

The 3x can fit in the little pouch on the pouch to the front of the Alaska guide.

The mount and tripod would have to be carried separately in a pack and would not be something I would routinely carry when on foot.

As to ranging, I can consistently range out to 1,100 yds during the day and that is plenty for shooting purposes. Newer units can range out farther, but life is full of trade-offs and I was able to get these binos for half the cost of new ones. Optically wise, I think they are the same.

So, I am very happy with them and take them out a lot just to look. I'm learning how to "triple scan" ... how to observe during the day (since my last six years have been spent learning how to see at night - now it is time to learn how to see in the day - and I find day scanning to be harder - since you can see so much !) First scan for movement, second scan for shape, third scan for color.

 

[wigwamitus]

Z 10x-45 in the field on commanche bag on RRS tripod. The 3x is attached on the left barrel.

 

[wigwamitus]

@SkyScrapin and I have been tossing around the idea of converting a patrol into a thermal range finder ... I'd already tried attach both a raptar and a radius to the patrol to no avail (integrated patrol rail too short) ... but Skyscappin's persistence made me go after a "rail on rail" solution ... and the good news is ... we got a weiner !!

And this will work on the REAPs as well ...

 

[Frog05]

I like it!

 

[wigwamitus]

Here's the "rail on rail" being used in the above pics with the range finders mounted to the patrol ...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0758S8QSY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You screw the riser on to the patrol and then mount the raptar or radius to the riser.

 

[wigwamitus]

The REAP2 riser looks elevated in the pics and may not need the riser for a RAPTAR, but a riser would probably still be advisable for the Radius as it might be more stable with a longer mounting surface.

The REAP1 and Patrols need the riser as their rail is recessed into the body of the housing.