Range session: Hits on target vs ammo cost

[brianf]

With components becoming more and more expensive:

most people go to the range with a certain amount of ammo

that amount of ammo is a combination of range time and cost


so, all things being equal:

would you pay 2X per round but hit percentage was 2X etc

simple example:

20 rounds at $2 = $40 = 10 hits

vs

10 rounds at $4 = $40 = 10 hits

while you get the same amount of "hits" you are spending more per shot and are puling the trigger less


doing a little research

thanks

 

[Supersubes]

Seems arbitrary and/or oversimplified? I didnt vote be because of this. Can you give an example of either the ammo cost comparison, or an instance where cheaper ammo cuts your effectiveness in half?

 

[just browsing]

This is what you’re looking for:

IDTS-Dryfire System

Indoor Dryfire Training System consist in a retractable and portable roll banner that you will install at a distance of approximately 12 feet

idts-dryfire.com

…profit???

 

[brianf]

its research so its theory

if i put all the possible variables it will be a mile long post

cheaper vs expensive ammo example:

wolf paper pack 223 vs federal gold medal

one you wont hit a barn at 500 and the other you can shoot for groups

 

[brianf]

This is what you’re looking for:

IDTS-Dryfire System

Indoor Dryfire Training System consist in a retractable and portable roll banner that you will install at a distance of approximately 12 feet

idts-dryfire.com

…profit???

thanks but no, simply

would you pay more to hit more

yet in doing that you will have less trigger time (unless you rich lol)

and how many rounds per session

 

[b6graham]

Id pay what I need to in order to properly train

If I'm shooting a 223 at 400y with a 6" target I need 1moa capable ammo. Whatever that may be

I need to know it was me missing and not poor ammo

For me. Training ammo is the same as match ammo. So in some cases its 223 versus 6XC/6.5CM. This year its all 223 for training and match

 

[Supersubes]

its research so its theory

if i put all the possible variables it will be a mile long post

cheaper vs expensive ammo example:

wolf paper pack 223 vs federal gold medal

one you wont hit a barn at 500 and the other you can shoot for groups

Imo hits are all that matter. Never considered a round count as a requirement for a session.

 

[brianf]

Imo hits are all that matter. Never considered a round count as a requirement for a session.

please fill out pole

thanks

 

[Supersubes]

please fill out pole

thanks

Done

 

[MarshallDodge]

I shoot a lot of my 223 reloads because it's cheap fun. They have a much lower chance of hitting the 12X12 at 1000 compared to my 6x47L but it makes it more challenging.

 

[brianf]

I shoot a lot of my 223 reloads because it's cheap fun. They have a much lower chance of hitting the 12X12 at 1000 compared to my 6x47L but it makes it more challenging.

question though

how do you know its not you puling a shot or making a bad wind call if you knowingly are shooing ammo that is not "perfect"

thanks

 

[b6graham]

question though

how do you know its not you puling a shot or making a bad wind call if you knowingly are shooing ammo that is not "perfect"

thanks

You don't

And thats why cheap ammo needs to have set expectations or be distance limited

 

[Snuby642]

Is this a one way range?
Are you filling the freezer?
Paper or steel?
Plinking or competition?

Seriously are you restricted to factory ammo or buying the cheap stuff for the brass?

Too many variables for a blanket response.

I buy cheaper bullets to work on loads and experiment with things.
When that is exhausted I fork up for better bullets and don't have to start from complete scratch.

After " perfecting" a baseline load evaluating premium components is easier for me with less money wasted.

Every once in a while you find a great load for your gun with less expensive components.

You have to decide if 1 moa is an acceptable goal or must be beaten.

Cheap factory ammo is not going to hit a 1 moa goal often.

Imho

 

[isofahunter]

If paying less to miss more makes sense, reevaluate the game you are playing.

 

[Snuby642]

I use 223 ar loads to play with variables of brass prep, setups and the like. Cheap fun and reduced learning cost than everything else I own.

Admittedly I have not got my 223 ar loads to 1k yet. I blame that on the magazine restricted OAL to make myself feel better.

 

[brianf]

Is this a one way range?
Are you filling the freezer?
Paper or steel?
Plinking or competition?

Seriously are you restricted to factory ammo or buying the cheap stuff for the brass?

Too many variables for a blanket response.

I buy cheaper bullets to work on loads and experiment with things.
When that is exhausted I fork up for better bullets and don't have to start from complete scratch.

After " perfecting" a baseline load evaluating premium components is easier for me with less money wasted.

Every once in a while you find a great load for your gun with less expensive components.

You have to decide if 1 moa is an acceptable goal or must be beaten.

Cheap factory ammo is not going to hit a 1 moa goal often.

Imho

one way range

stated in initial post, not AR, SBR stuff...plinking is for 10/22's and pistols

when i shoot my bolt guns i plan to hit what im aiming at

personally i still shoot paper with bulls and x rings, i like getting mad at myself when im in the 7 ring even though id still be on steel

buying cheap ammo for the brass but at the end of the day putting berger in it...its still not "cheap ammo"

accuracy is accuracy no matter what and how you shoot

additionally sorting and more brass prep than needed because its cheaper brass has a cost...might be you personal time at the bench but its a cost

 

[Snuby642]

Well that answers lots of things.

If you start with premium brass and premium bullets for bolt guns and expect x ring hits good.

I cannot figure where you expect any cost savings running top tier components though.

And for your use, I also can't figure you would find any suitable for your needs.

So your original post now is confusing me. I thought you were trying to save money?

I also setup brass, dies, and major adjustments for bolt guns with cheap bullets to conserve shooting funds.

Edit: Time is the one thing my pockets are full of so even 223 plinkers get the same attention to detail.

 

[brianf]

Well that answers lots of things.

If you start with premium brass and premium bullets for bolt guns and expect x ring hits good.

I cannot figure where you expect any cost savings running top tier components though.

And for your use, I also can't figure you would find any suitable for your needs.

So your original post now is confusing me. I thought you were trying to save money?

I also setup brass, dies, and major adjustments for bolt guns with cheap bullets to conserve shooting funds.

Edit: Time is the one thing my pockets are full of so even 223 plinkers get the same attention to detail.

I’m not trying to save money at all

just trying to see if people will pay more for excellent Ammo which will reduce the amount of rounds for s given budget

personally I’d pay more than most people

 

[Im2bent]

Seriously? Took 19 posts to say go be poor somewhere else?

 

[Snuby642]

Well I will offer a peronal perspective on that endeavor.
It may not be worth the price paid or what you want to here.

Cheap factory stuff is extremely dissapointing. Emergency crap.

Mid tier " hunting, target" ammo is popular and usefull but not to compitition levels.

Premium hunting ammo worth the piece of mind and performance / consistancy, too expensive to plink.

Premium target centerfire, not competitive for high level competition generally requiring custom worked up loads.

In general I think a very small niche market. If you could work with one barrel manufacturer or rifle maker that might be an option for success?

IMHO and not at all intended as a slight.

 

[theLBC]

i shoot way more m80 ball out of my 7.62 than match ammo.
even with m80, i can manage around 1.5 moa, which is fine for practicing setup and recoil management.
i don't need match ammo unless i am shooting a smaller targets beyond 600 yards.

 

[Bandit320]

With components becoming more and more expensive:

most people go to the range with a certain amount of ammo

that amount of ammo is a combination of range time and cost


so, all things being equal:

would you pay 2X per round but hit percentage was 2X etc

simple example:

20 rounds at $2 = $40 = 10 hits

vs

10 rounds at $4 = $40 = 10 hits

while you get the same amount of "hits" you are spending more per shot and are puling the trigger less


doing a little research

thanks

If ammo that costs twice as much doubles the hit rate can I buy ammo at tens times the cost that will give me 100% hit rate?

 

[Snuby642]

That's where everyone has different expectations.

1 1/2 moa ammo is infuriating to me in most calibers.

My last batch of plinking 223 ar was 1 1/8 average and a few better . Maybe my reloading sucks or maybe I cop out and blame it on 52gr bulk factory secconds.

Maybe next batch I weight sort and check ogive on each first.

I can shoot the culls in my sbr for center mass at 50 yards. lol

 

[brianf]

If ammo that costs twice as much doubles the hit rate can I buy ammo at tens times the cost that will give me 100% hit rate?

I you could would you?

serious question

 

[Snuby642]

If ammo that costs twice as much doubles the hit rate can I buy ammo at tens times the cost that will give me 100% hit rate?

Yes I can accommodate you for that price.

I'm sure it will 100% hit something if fired.

 

[brianf]

Well I will offer a peronal perspective on that endeavor.
It may not be worth the price paid or what you want to here.

Cheap factory stuff is extremely dissapointing. Emergency crap.

Mid tier " hunting, target" ammo is popular and usefull but not to compitition levels.

Premium hunting ammo worth the piece of mind and performance / consistancy, too expensive to plink.

Premium target centerfire, not competitive for high level competition generally requiring custom worked up loads.

In general I think a very small niche market. If you could work with one barrel manufacturer or rifle maker that might be an option for success?

IMHO and not at all intended as a slight.

No prob but truthfully your looking into more than you should…lol

this is step one of many

 

[Bandit320]

Yes

 

[brianf]

Seriously? Took 19 posts to say go be poor somewhere else?

Actually its interesting to see what’s more important to shooters.

this site is all about shooting accurately

so I’m also getting a feel if people really want to do:

the x ring

or

just bang steel “all day”

 

[Snuby642]

I suppose for enough money you could have load development rounds delivered or just send in your gun.

Then buy enough rounds to burn through your barrel.

Maybe cheaper to hire a retired guy for your pit crew. Lol

 

[Snuby642]

Actually its interesting to see what’s more important to shooters.

this site is all about shooting accurately

so I’m also getting a feel if people really want to do:

the x ring

or

just bang steel “all day”

Maybe the x-ring culls would be good enough for steel banging?

One setup.

 

[brianf]

Maybe the x-ring culls would be good enough for steel banging?

One setup.

Thanks for the reply’s but I don’t think your getting it. Lol

this pole not about reloading to different specs or max accuracy

it’s about would someone pay for superior performing ammunition

or

are they ok with better than average accuracy at distance for a lower price (current market pricing)

 

[brianf]

I suppose for enough money you could have load development rounds delivered or just send in your gun.

Then buy enough rounds to burn through your barrel.

Maybe cheaper to hire a retired guy for your pit crew. Lol

There are a few guys who do that service already McCourt is one of them.

 

[MarshallDodge]

question though

how do you know its not you puling a shot or making a bad wind call if you knowingly are shooing ammo that is not "perfect"

thanks

The 223 ammo is good and so is the rifle, the difficulty is the wind. My 6X47L loads have less deviation, according to the chrono, so that helps some but on a 12X12 target at distance, it's more about bucking the wind.

 

[theLBC]

Actually its interesting to see what’s more important to shooters.

this site is all about shooting accurately

so I’m also getting a feel if people really want to do:

the x ring

or

just bang steel “all day”

yeah, i am probably far from typical on the site.
while accuracy is important, i only shoot a gas gun and my focus is in rapid effective fire and being able to engage multiple targets quickly, or sending follow up shots downrange before the first shots hit the target.
cheaper ammo allows me more shots to practice fundamentals, and i can use match ammo when it matters.

if i wasn't a poor, i'd probably shoot match ammo all the time, if i could find it.

 

[brianf]

The 223 ammo is good and so is the rifle, the difficulty is the wind. My 6X47L loads have less deviation, according to the chrono, so that helps some but on a 12X12 target at distance, it's more about bucking the wind.

Ok so if you could still shoot your 6x47 (nothing changes…magic) and have the same hit percentage on a 8x8 plate would you pay double

thanks

 

[MarshallDodge]

Ok so if you could still shoot your 6x47 (nothing changes…magic) and have the same hit percentage on a 8x8 plate would you pay double

thanks

Based on the bullets, powder, brass and primers that I use to reload the ammo, I do pay more for accuracy. It isn’t double but probably 20-30% more than the lower cost option.

 

[brianf]

Based on the bullets, powder, brass and primers that I use to reload the ammo, I do pay more for accuracy. It isn’t double but probably 20-30% more than the lower cost option.

Would you pay 30% more again for better Ammo?

 

[Snuby642]

So your just a salesman?

 

[Steel head]

I get more satisfaction shooting big stuff/ magnums and tend to shoot less rounds per trip with them compared to my 223 or 260.

 

[brianf]

So your just a salesman?

Nope…again trying to hard lol

research
Inquisitive
Pushing boundaries
Favorite hobby

 

[brianf]

I get more satisfaction shooting big stuff/ magnums and tend to shoot less rounds per trip with them compared to my 223 or 260.

Your a “long range” guy

and you shoot the big stuff

would you pay 2x for 50% more hits at 1 mile

 

[nn8734]

its research so its theory

if i put all the possible variables it will be a mile long post

cheaper vs expensive ammo example:

wolf paper pack 223 vs federal gold medal

one you wont hit a barn at 500 and the other you can shoot for groups

Compute the unit cost per hit at 100m increments starting at 400 or 500m on a man-sized target (for short action cartridges) for each make of ammo used

Cost of one 20-round box of ammo / number of hits out of 20 = unit cost per hit.

Example:
Box of 20 rounds of FGMM $20/15 hits @ 800m = $1.33 per hit. Box of

Box of 20 rounds of Brand X ammo $15/5 hits @ 800m = $3 per hit

what costs more per unit? The more expensive FGMM or the cheap ass brand X?

In a perfect world, you’d bat a thousand and keep a 1:1 ratio between unit cost per round and and unit cost per successful round (ie hit).
Spread the results on a sheet and/or in a side by side column graph, one column (cost per hit) for each ammo used.

That should get you closer to an answer to your question.

 

[brianf]

Compute the unit cost per hit at 100m increments starting at 400 or 500m on a man-sized target (for short action cartridges) for each make of ammo used

Cost of one 20-round box of ammo / number of hits out of 20 = unit cost per hit.

Example:
Box of 20 rounds of FGMM $20/15 hits @ 800m = $1.33 per hit. Box of

Box of 20 rounds of Brand X ammo $15/5 hits @ 800m = $3 per hit

what costs more per unit? The more expensive FGMM or the cheap ass brand X?

In a perfect world, you’d bat a thousand and keep a 1:1 ratio between unit cost per round and and unit cost per successful round (ie hit).
Spread the results on a sheet and/or in a side by side column graph, one column (cost per hit) for each ammo used.

That should get you closer to an answer to your question.

Thanks

I know my answer, I’m wondering what the consensus of the hide is.

 

[Steel head]

Your a “long range” guy

and you shoot the big stuff

would you pay 2x for 50% more hits at 1 mile

Lol
I’m already paying it!

 

[nn8734]

I know my answer, I’m wondering what the consensus of the hide is.

^^ this belongs in your OP.

And no, your expressions aren’t computing cost per hit (which is what you should be using to make this decision) unless you are assuming a 100% hit rate at all times regardless of ammo selection. If so, then always buy the cheaper box assuming each option contains the same amount of rounds or common-size if the amount of rounds per box varies among the ammo choices.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Would you pay 30% more again for better Ammo?

Not unless I was shooting competition, which I rarely do. In the couple of competitions that I have attended, I have placed near the top, and better than several guys who had spent substantially more on ammo and their rifle/gear.

I believe my success was because I practiced more and had a better understanding of the data.

 

[brianf]

^^ this belongs in your OP.

And no, your expressions aren’t computing cost per hit (which is what you should be using to make this decision) unless you are assuming a 100% hit rate at all times regardless of ammo selection. If so, then always buy the cheaper box assuming each option contains the same amount of rounds or common-size if the amount of rounds per box varies among the ammo choices.

I actually asked the question that I wanted to, not the one you think I want

It’s not cost per hit, it’s relative

it’s not how many in a box

it’s not I need help making a choice

it’s would you pay more for more hits

I specifically left exact distance and exact dollars out of it

people get caught up in the price ( as you can see by several replies already).

for this particular exercise, it’s would you pay significantly more for more hits (not talking a increase of 75 cents a round)

 

[nn8734]

I actually asked the question that I wanted to, not the one you think I want

It’s not cost per hit, it’s relative

it’s not how many in a box

it’s not I need help making a choice

it’s would you pay more for more hits

I specifically left exact distance and exact dollars out of it

people get caught up in the price ( as you can see by several replies already).

for this particular exercise, it’s would you pay significantly more for more hits (not talking a increase of 75 cents a round)

Relative to what? If you’re asking whether people would pay more for more hits, you have to a better job of define “more” so that it means the same thing to everyone.

You may have (in your mind) asked the question you wanted to ask but framed it poorly based on the responses you’re getting. You’re further tripping over yourself by using subjective terms like “significantly more” which means different things to different people.

I empirically grounded your question so that it’s actually answerable and where people’s answers would be directly comparable but you’re not looking for an objective analysis.

You’re engaged a confirmation bias exercise. You want to see what % of the Hide is aligned with your thinking on this particular question/issue.

Nothing wrong with all that, you aren’t hurting anyone.

It is what it is.

Carry on.

 

[Snuby642]

All bullshit aside not many here buying box ammo from anyone for anything other than 22lr and the occasional fudd gun.

 

[Im2bent]

Isn't that why we reload? Better ammo at a cost savings over premium off the shelf ammo? So how many switched to rolling their own for this very reason? Better ammo more hits same or less money?