Re:S&B prices - Any foreign exchange traders on here?

[carbonbased]

So, Schmidt und Bender’s has absurd USA pricing as of 10/12/22. We all know that.

In a ten year timeframe, the worst the dollar has been against the euro is $1 = €0.72, or €1 = $1.39. The dollar was weak.

But the Euro is currently about $1 = €1.03, or €0.97 = $1. The dollar is strong, and things made in the Eurozone should be a LOT cheaper now.

So why haven’t S&B’s scopes (and others) gotten cheaper?

I can guess, like the way companies structure selling to their subsidiaries and disallow selling scopes from Germany to the USA.

But if the strong dollar continues, this cannot hold, right?

Don’t comment if you, like me, are guessing, ok? Financial people speak up.

 

[beetroot]

So, Schmidt und Bender’s has absurd USA pricing as of 10/12/22. We all know that.

In a ten year timeframe, the worst the dollar has been against the euro is $1 = €0.72, or €1 = $1.39. The dollar was weak.

But the Euro is currently about $1 = €1.03, or €0.97 = $1. The dollar is strong, and things made in the Eurozone should be a LOT cheaper now.

So why haven’t S&B’s scopes (and others) gotten cheaper?

I can guess, like the way companies structure selling to their subsidiaries and disallow selling scopes from Germany to the USA.

But if the strong dollar continues, this cannot hold, right?

Don’t comment if you, like me, are guessing, ok? Financial people speak up.

Not a financial person but I know for a fact that many pricing differences come down to the importer and industry agreements. If you have a sole importer they can set the price as no competition means it can be whatever they like.


I'm in New Zealand where everything is expensive and some importers/distributors have been caught out price gouging.
The most notable being the Vortex importer ended up threatening legal action against a few retailers "grey importing" scopes and selling them at greatly discounted prices.

The argument is always that it cost the distributors lots of money to exist but if a small business (or even and individual) can import low numbers of stock, without bulk shipping, and without bulk buying power and still make a healthy profit then that is all just BS.

*This part is just me rambling *
S&B might be a different story in that they have a service center to run that isn't cheap. Or it is just that they sell plenty of scopes through big contracts and don't need civilian sales.
Kinda like when a project goes to tender and a contractor doesn't need the work so puts a crazy price on that should someone be stupid enough to pay, then they'll be happy to do it.

 

[captain_toad]

Fixed retail prices are a sales decision, not a financial markets decision. Clearly, S&B US sets distributor/dealer/wholesale prices and recommend retail prices for each market at some interval. Prices may drop at the next interval. They also might not.

If we elect to overanalyze, let's float both the unit cost and the wholesale price and fix the retail markup at, say 25%. It's possible that S&B products will get more expensive instead of less since currency strength doesn't determine pricing by itself. Yes, the dollar strengthened relative to the Euro, but S&B's input costs have likely soared beyond any potential currency offset. Anything energy intensive in European manufacturing is a shitshow currently, and that's on top of COVID economy supply chain woes.

 

[Huskydriver]

I don't think it's coincidence why they lowered their prices on euro a week or two ago on some in stock models.... Still high AF but we will see...I don't know anyone looking up for a 6 k sb to be a beta tester

 

[Budrichard]

My understanding is that S&B went to a sole distributer that also retailed thier scopes.
CameraLand and others dropped S&B.
Doug did manage to order me a nice S&B before the change exactly how I wanted the scope at a discount.
Since then I have purchased a Leica PRS and Leica digital issued in a Limited Number from CameraLand.
Joel and doug are good on their word and deliver.
Currently waiting on the new Zeiss 636 from them.
No S&B for me at this time.
-Richard

 

[carbonbased]

I knew that the price of non-commodities (like “luxury”-class scopes) can be more easily fixed by strictly enforcing a retail price and by limiting distribution. But I didn’t know that prices of the same goods can be sort of uncoupled from exchange rates (EUR to USD), at least in the short-term. Never really thought about it…just considered exchange rates sort of immutable.

Come to think about it, I’ve seen this with German cameras, especially. Leica, looking at you. I’m sure it happens all over and I’ve not paid any attention as I blithely go about my day.

But if the dollar stays strong against the Euro for years, luxury Euro manufacturers still have to sell stuff as they slide into recession, right? I think it would be suicide for them to effectively say, “Pay no attention to the man Euro behind the green curtain,” and keep their USA prices where they are now.

I get that lowering prices on luxury goods is quite a tricky thing to pull off without hurting the brand, but with Schmidt especially, they are going to have a hard row to hoe with their current wack-job prices.

I mean, they crossed the line from “we’re worth it” to insulting the consumer.

Even though I can afford it, I sort of want them to burn to the ground.

Or at least, smolder a bit lol.

I guess it’s an awesome time to travel to Europe now, price-wise. Sort of doubt I could pick up a scope over there and bring it back. Or could I?

 

[308pirate]

I knew that the price of non-commodities (like “luxury”-class scopes) can be more easily fixed by strictly enfkrcing a retail price and by limiting distribution. But I didn’t know that prices of the same goods can be sort of uncoupled from exchange rates (EUR to USD), at least in the short-term.

I’ve seen this with German cameras, especially. Leica, looking at you.

But if the dollar stays strong against the Euro for years, luxury Euro manufacturers still have to sell stuff as they slide into recession, right? I think it would be suicide for them to effectively say, “Pay no attention to the man Euro behind the green curtain,” and keep their USA prices where they are now.

I get that lowering prices on luxury goods is quite a tricky thing to pull off without hurting the brand, but with Schmidt especially, they are going to have a hard row to hoe with their current wack-job prices.

I mean, they crossed the line from “we’re worth it” to insulting the consumer.

Even though I can afford it, I sort of want them to burn to the ground.

Or at least, smolder a bit lol.

I guess it’s an awesome time to travel to Europe now, price-wise. Sort of doubt I could pick up a scope over there and bring it back. Or could I?

You conveniently ignored the post where it was explained to you that the cost of goods sold has likely increased far more than any currency exchange fluctuations in your favor.

You seem to also gloss over the fact that some companies prioritize government and institutional customers and that is reflected in their pricing structure.

Giving some customers and or market segments fuck you pricing is real and happens everywhere. I'm not saying S&B is doing that. I'm saying it's possible.

 

[carbonbased]

You conveniently ignored the post where it was explained to you that the cost of goods sold has likely increased far more than any currency exchange fluctuations in your favor.

I get it. I didn’t want to even more frantically splash in the deep end of the pool by talking about that. I’m not sure I buy that argument…our material prices have gone up stratospherically too, but I suppose our energy prices have climbed less than Germany’s.

But I’m out of my depth. I can’t make a cogent argument in this area, so I’ll take it as it stands. I’m trying to learn something.

You seem to also gloss over the fact that some companies prioritize government and institutional customers and ghat is reflected in their pricing structure.

Giving some customers and or market segments fuck you pricing is real and happens everywhere. I'm not saying S&B is doing that. I'm saying it's possible.

Maybe S&B is giving us the flying Hensoldt finger and is just concentrating on gov/mil contacts. But I sort of doubt it. They have to support their consumer lineup (hunting scopes, etc), but maybe they don’t care? Good point though.

What’s driving me to discuss this is that historically, it seems that the USA’s broad goal has been to always encourage a weak dollar in order to sell exports abroad.

When the tables are turned, I’d like to reap some rewards and I’m a bit puzzled why it isn’t happening.

Maybe the gas pricing sector is a model here? Fast to rise, slow to fall…whatever. Any finance experts should chime in.

 

[308pirate]

I get it. I didn’t want to even more frantically splash in the deep end of the pool by talking about that. I’m not sure I buy that argument…our material prices have gone up stratospherically too, but I suppose our energy prices have climbed less than Germany’s.

Whether our material prices have gone up or not is completely irrelevant to a manufacturer in Germany. All that matters to S&B (as far as materials and conversion costs) is that theirs have gone up.

Maybe S&B is giving us the flying Hensoldt finger and just concentrating on gov/mil contacts. But I sort of doubt it. They have to support their consumer lineup (hunting scopes, etc), but maybe they don’t care? Good point though.

Not every product line has equal value to a manufacturer. That's all I got to say about that.

What’s driving me to discuss this is that historically, it seems that the USA’s broad goal has been to always encourage a weak dollar in order to sell exports abroad.

When the tables are turned, I’d like to reap some rewards and I’m a bit puzzled why it isn’t happening.

Because A) currency valuations are often not the most important factor and B) not every country has the same economic policies we do.

Asking for advice from finance experts isn't going to get you much useful information because this is a product costing and pricing problem not a finance problem. Product costing and pricing is a big part of my job. I'm offering you some general insights based on subject matter expertise.

By general I mean I don't work for Schmidt & Bender so I don't know their exact situation/policies/stragey.

 

[carbonbased]

Product costing and pricing is a big part of my job. I'm offering you some general insights based on subject matter expertise.

Damnit broseph, you have the market cornered on torque-related stuff and NOW you tell me you also are a cost/pricing ninja?

I guess I’ll stick to jokes, boobs, and punctuation.

But seriously, didn’t know you did that stuff too. Glad to hear your analysis.

 

[TheOE800]

Schmidt may simply not want to be in the US commercial market and their pricing could reflect that.

 

[308pirate]

Damnit broseph, you have the market cornered on torque-related stuff and NOW you tell me you also are a cost/pricing ninja?

I guess I’ll stick to jokes, boobs, and punctuation.

But seriously, didn’t know you did that stuff too. Glad to hear your analysis.

Not a ninja, but it is a significant part of my job.

Ask the finance guys, but they're more interested in getting good deals on capital, real estate, stock valuations, etc.

 

[RobbinsHGray]

In 1974 when I ran A foreign exchange department we called things premium currencies when their value relative to the currency we were talking about was going up we called the ones going down discount currencies. When we were looking at those things the primary difference was the inflation rate, believe it or not. It was a way of understanding that if you bought 1000 dollars worth of Swiss francs and $1000 worth of euros and US$1000 and essentially just put them on the shelf what would their worth be in a week a month a year in two years.

We are in a really strange economic time at the moment. The last time we had these kinds of rate increases was in 1981 and 1982. This kind of economic turmoil could certainly be affecting a manufacturers pricing. I am dealing with a bank right now that does over $2 billion worth of loans in a year. They have told me they really don’t want to do any business right now because if they lock a loan on application by the time they close it they could’ve bought five your treasuries instead.

Bad economic time to try and understand pricing concepts.

 

[carbonbased]

Not a ninja, but it is a significant part of my job.

That’s pretty neat. I wish I had some biz chops. And engineering chops.

A little aside here:
You can be a cranky SOB, but I’ve always sensed that you tend to know what you’re talking about. Maybe I agree or disagree, maybe you put it out there in a raw way, but regardless you can construct a logical argument.

I work with a number of smart prickly guys that rub some the wrong way, but I really appreciate their technical expertise. So, I roll with their punches and enjoy their company despite the porcupine quills.

And then I give them shit.

Same with you, man, same with you. Thanks for the good info throughout the years. I mean that.

Keep on torquin’ in the free world!

 

[308pirate]

That’s pretty neat. I wish I had some biz chops. And engineering chops.

A little aside here:
You can be a cranky SOB, but I’ve always sensed that you tend to know what you’re talking about. Maybe I agree or disagree, maybe you put it out there in a raw way, but regardless you can construct a logical argument.

I work with a number smart prickly guys that rub some the wrong way, but I really appreciate their technical expertise. So, I roll with their punches and enjoy their company despite the porcupine quills.

And then I give them shit.

Same with you, man, same with you. Thanks for the good info throughout the years. I mean that.

Keep on torquin’ in the free world!

Liquor me up and I'm a lot nicer

 

[cjs88]

I don't think it's coincidence why they lowered their prices on euro a week or two ago on some in stock models.... Still high AF but we will see...I don't know anyone looking up for a 6 k sb to be a beta tester

A lot of the models on sale on EO are discontinued models making way for the new models with illum built in to the parallax and such. I am a fan of S&B scopes, maybe because it was my first nice scope that I had for a small time before upgrading to TT, which I then sold lol. Currently have the 520 US I bought last week that I am still contemplating on if I want to keep or return.

 

[Dogtown]

I have a number of S&Bs and most of the ones I purchased in the last few years were used, which turned out to be a really good deal. If you don’t need the latest models/turrets/reticles and can be a little patient, you can often find them used at reasonable prices. Of course that can be said for most top quality optics.

 

[Huskydriver]

A lot of the models on sale on EO are discontinued models making way for the new models with illum built in to the parallax and such. I am a fan of S&B scopes, maybe because it was my first nice scope that I had for a small time before upgrading to TT, which I then sold lol. Currently have the 520 US I bought last week that I am still contemplating on if I want to keep or return.

I'm aware....

 

[cjs88]

I'm aware....

K. Lots of good deals on there for older models. The newer model prices are redonkadonk! For those who are curious:

End-of-Life Products - Prices Reduced!

Act fast - discontinued product is on sale, moves quick, and isn't coming back. Get the best prices and services at EuroOptic.com.

www.eurooptic.com

 

[XTREM HTR16]

Most of it is probably due to the single distributor you can buy them from here in the US...

I'm also looking forward to seeing the prices on the new 3-18x42 hunting scope, that one has my interest...

 

[Darayavaus]

Schmidt & Bender Hunting Rifle Scopes - Optics-Trade

Schmidt & Bender Hunting Rifle Scopes

www.optics-trade.eu

I bought one of my S&Bs from these guys 6 or 7 years ago

 

[TheOE800]

We keep blaming EuroOptic. Can we just ask them?

 

[Heretoimproveforhunting]

nat gas prices i think are in the $5 to 6 ish dollar per MM mmbtu range at henry hub of late. last i heard the same figure was fluctuating $120 to $160 in Germany. lots of upward pressure on costs in germany at the moment.

 

[XTREM HTR16]

Optics Trade is EU

 

[TheOE800]

nat gas prices i think are in the $5 to 6 ish dollar per MM mmbtu range at henry hub of late. last i heard the same figure was fluctuating $120 to $160 in Germany. lots of upward pressure on costs in germany at the moment.

They came out with these prices a good long while ago.

 

[vinniedelpino]

I'll be in Germany in two weeks. I just checked the closest gun shop to my hotel and here are the prices in USD after VAT refund for what they have in stock:

PMII 5-25 P4L: $2392.91
PMII 4-16x P4L: $1881.01
Steiner MX5 5-25 Tremor3: $2314.17

Seems like there aren't too many tactical oriented scopes for sale. I'm finding tons of hunting style scopes, but this is about it. For comparisons sake, a VX3-HD 3.5-10 Duplex runs $807 and runs $499 from Eurooptic.

Looking at the 5-25x, I'd be in the hole for $3295.06 through Eurooptic after mandatory shipping insurance and tax. Not a bad deal, but not really crazy either.

So.... do I pick one of these up or pass?

 

[cjs88]

I'll be in Germany in two weeks. I just checked the closest gun shop to my hotel and here are the prices in USD after VAT refund for what they have in stock:

PMII 5-25 P4L: $2392.91
PMII 4-16x P4L: $1881.01
Steiner MX5 5-25 Tremor3: $2314.17

Seems like there aren't too many tactical oriented scopes for sale. I'm finding tons of hunting style scopes, but this is about it. For comparisons sake, a VX3-HD 3.5-10 Duplex runs $807 and runs $499 from Eurooptic.

Looking at the 5-25x, I'd be in the hole for $3295.06 through Eurooptic after mandatory shipping insurance and tax. Not a bad deal, but not really crazy either.

So.... do I pick one of these up or pass?

The shipping insurance isn't mandatory, you can uncheck it. If anything happens to it, you'll probably be SOL though.

 

[vinniedelpino]

The shipping insurance isn't mandatory, you can uncheck it. If anything happens to it, you'll probably be SOL though.

It's only $30. Not a deal maker/breaker.

 

[TheOE800]

I wouldn’t buy a P4* PM II 5-25x with illumination tumor in 2022 for $3300.

 

[18Echo]

I lucked out a few years ago and scored two PMII’s from Euro when they were blowing out the DT P4F’s for $2400. Sent them to Jerry Ricker at S&B USA (he received Monday) and got notified my reticle swaps to MSR 2’s was complete on Thursday. Should have them next week. Even with cost of the reticle swap, I still think I did well.

 

[Vynz]

I haven’t bought alpha glass before; highest I’ve hit is the Vortex Razor tier. However if/when I do buy alpha-glass it will be from a manufacturer who is interested in the US market like ZCO. S&B seems like the Pink Floyd of the rifle optics world - huge, well known, great, but ultimately not interested in their customers here.

 

[hlee]

I know for a fact that my company sets prices based on local markets, in that currency.

Ie, US prices are based on the US market and set in dollars. Euro-zone prices are set based on euro-zone market conditions and in euros. The European prices do not fluctuate based on exchange rates. And, the euro price does not equate to the US dollar equivalent.

I would expect other consumer markets to behave similarly.

 

[JakeM]

Optics trade EU told me 5-25x56 DT MSR2 is 3.509,00 € with VAT included ( $3,431.61 ), but they aren’t allowed to ship outside of the EU “due to the manufacturer's restriction policy”.

 

[carbonbased]

Optics trade EU told me 5-25x56 DT MSR2 is 3.509,00 € with VAT included ( $3,431.61 ), but they aren’t allowed to ship outside of the EU “due to the manufacturer's restriction policy”.

Too bad. Not surprising. Was it the newest version? In the US, they start with model #689, has no tumor, no tunneling, and have a metal zoom ring. #677 are the older versions that tunnel, with tumor, rubber zoom ring.

$3500-$4k is what I would expect to pay for the new version. In the US, the newest version of that scope is $5200 with MSR2 reticle and DT II+ turrets. A ZCO 5-27 is $4k.

Schmidt Bender 5-25x56mm PM II LP MSR2 1cm ccw DT II+ MTC LT / ST II ZC LT Riflescope 689-911-812-L7-I5

FREE SHIPPING on Schmidt Bender 5-25x56mm PM II LP MSR2 1cm ccw DT II+ MTC LT / ST II ZC LT Riflescope 689-911-812-L7-I5

www.eurooptic.com

Pro tip: To find all of their new 689 model 5-25 S&Bs, search Eurooptic for “689 Schmidt” as their site sort of sucks. Can’t find them via the regular page here.

 

[acudaowner]

when you can over price your product and still people will pay that higher price , I am sure they care that you think the price is too high . Buy used , Start your own company and give them a reason to lower there prices as you compete directly with them sad as it is every related to firearms is over priced it's the nature of the industry and most others to make money . If it's just a rant over the price the best thing you can do to get back at them is go fishing , invest in burlap sacks to throw the kids in while you teach them to swim ( nothing is as much fun as bonding time with the family ). best of luck finding used snb glass at a price your looking to spend .

 

[carbonbased]

Hey, this thread is a safe space to vent lol

I get it. I started this thread primarily to puzzle through international pricing schemes and not to bitch.

But I can’t resist giving Schmidt a couple stiff uppercuts, ok? Give me that.

They (probably) don’t care; I don’t care that they don’t care. We’re all happy.

We keep blaming EuroOptic. Can we just ask them?

I do remember reading that Eurooptic was quite unhappy about Schmidt’s current price regime. I’m certain EO is not to blame.

 

[vinniedelpino]

So... is a new PMII 5-25x P4FL at $2409.78 OTD worth it or not? I'm not going back to Germany anytime soon.

 

[Lowlight]

Yes that is a good price

 

[carbonbased]

So... is a new PMII 5-25x P4FL at $2409.78 OTD worth it or not? I'm not going back to Germany anytime soon.

Pick me up a 689-911-812-L7-I5 while you’re over there in Germany haha!

It looks like buying one there and bringing it back is ok?

Rifle Scopes - Going to Germany... are Zeiss/Hensoldt scopes cheaper for US citizen to purchase

Any advice... going to visit family in the Netherlands and going to Germany when Covid is done... is it cheaper to buy German optics in Germany than here in the US. I am not military but a federal employee... any advice? Thank you in advance.

www.snipershide.com

 

[Lowlight]

I was able to buy one of the first 5-25x PMIIs when they originally hit the US,

I paid $2350 at that time

 

[vinniedelpino]

Pick me up a 689-911-812-L7-I5 while you’re over there in Germany haha!

It looks like buying one there and bringing it back is ok?

Rifle Scopes - Going to Germany... are Zeiss/Hensoldt scopes cheaper for US citizen to purchase

Any advice... going to visit family in the Netherlands and going to Germany when Covid is done... is it cheaper to buy German optics in Germany than here in the US. I am not military but a federal employee... any advice? Thank you in advance.

www.snipershide.com

Guess there's only one way to find out. They're running $3039 which includes 19% VAT that is refundable when you go through customs. WIth the exchange right now I figure it might be worthwhile, especially if prices are going up.

Only the P4L/P3 available over the counter in Munich, unfortunately.

 

[Lowlight]

Get the P4L

the P3 is the straight Mil Dot, old school reticle

 

[JakeM]

I was able to buy one of the first 5-25x PMIIs when they originally hit the US,

I paid $2350 at that time

In 2016-2019 people were buying them from the dealers at $2,400. They destroyed their own value and then marked it up double, that’s why nobody can get rid of used 5-25s for anything over $2,500 on just about every forum.

 

[18Echo]

I think that depends on the reticle^^