Reading the wind for beginners

[Lowlight]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

There is an ART and Science of wind reading...

At the SHOOTER is the SCIENCE Dept, it is the only place across the flight of the bullet you can read the wind better than 1 MPH. (1 MPH @ 1000 yards with a 308 is 10", and you are not reading the wind within 1 MPH downrange alone)

Everything not at the SHOOTER is the ART Dept.

On a KD Range where a shooter, like Sherry is looking at mirage and changes downrange is misleading. She has already established a baseline reading at the line before even looking through the scope. She is then simply noting the changes and making small changes based off what she already knows... from the line.

We use our Eyes, Ears, and Body to feel to the wind. We hear it, we see what it is doing to things around us and we feel it. We immediately begin to establish an estimation the moment we walk on the range. Either by looking at the flags, hearing what others are calling it, or seeing what we are reading it. We don't establish a call in a vacuum, and you CANNOT begin to learn the wind without have a real number, from the SCIENCE DEPT to establish the estimate downrange to the ART DEPT.

KD ranges are, in a word a different animal from the field. It's the same... you need a base line which is wind at the shooter or behind the line. It cannot work any other way regardless of what anyone says. Even trial and error needs a number to reference, that comes from our position.

We need a number, especially new shooters. As our experience grows we can then project that estimate further downrange, but it takes time and practice. It doesn't just begin downrange --- that never works.

Also there are a host of situations where downrange wind doesn't work, like at night, you can't see the mirage, you can't see the fine movements of objects, which is why they have Night Vision Capable Kestrel weather stations.

Establish a baseline at the shooter where you can read it better than 1 MPH and then you can begin to move your calls downrange. That is the logical order ...

 

[treebasher]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is an ART and Science of wind reading...

At the SHOOTER is the SCIENCE Dept, it is the only place across the flight of the bullet you can read the wind better than 1 MPH. (1 MPH @ 1000 yards with a 308 is 10", and you are not reading the wind within 1 MPH downrange alone)

Everything not at the SHOOTER is the ART Dept.

On a KD Range where a shooter, like Sherry is looking at mirage and changes downrange is misleading. She has already established a baseline reading at the line before even looking through the scope. She is then simply noting the changes and making small changes based off what she already knows... from the line.

We use our Eyes, Ears, and Body to feel to the wind. We hear it, we see what it is doing to things around us and we feel it. We immediately begin to establish an estimation the moment we walk on the range. Either by looking at the flags, hearing what others are calling it, or seeing what we are reading it. We don't establish a call in a vacuum, and you CANNOT begin to learn the wind without have a real number, from the SCIENCE DEPT to establish the estimate downrange to the ART DEPT.

KD ranges are, in a word a different animal from the field. It's the same... you need a base line which is wind at the shooter or behind the line. It cannot work any other way regardless of what anyone says. Even trial and error needs a number to reference, that comes from our position.

We need a number, especially new shooters. As our experience grows we can then project that estimate further downrange, but it takes time and practice. It doesn't just begin downrange --- that never works.

Also there are a host of situations where downrange wind doesn't work, like at night, you can't see the mirage, you can't see the fine movements of objects, which is why they have Night Vision Capable Kestrel weather stations.

Establish a baseline at the shooter where you can read it better than 1 MPH and then you can begin to move your calls downrange. That is the logical order ... </div></div>

This is the best explanation of reading wind that I have ever read.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Do you mean that having read Frank's post you now know how to read the wind? Or does it mean that wind reading is now easier for you? I'd like to know if any post or posts here have helped you actually know what to do? Here's a scenario: the target is at 600 yards and you're on a square range. The wind at your firing point is 9 to 3 at 10 mph and the wind at mid range is at 10 mph but the direction is now 11 to 5 on the wind clock or half value. You are shooting a .223 with an 80 grain Berger bullet at 2750 fps. How much favor, or hold off in MOA do you need to make to get a good hit on the target. BTW, the wind at the target is also 10 mph and half value. This is not a trick question and requires no more than you inputting information from posts here but I don't think from the ones you may suspect, I may be wrong. If you want to use a constant of 10 for simplicity go ahead.

 

[Erud]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Seriously? I know the question wasn't directed towards me, but I will take a stab at it anyways. I would ignore everything you just typed(cuz my brain doesn't work like that, when it comes to shooting), look at the available wind indicators, make an estimate based on my experience shooting in same or similar conditions, dial in my educated guess, and shoot my first shot, just like I always do. It's usually pretty darned close. I'd then make corrections for subsequent shots based on the info received from the first.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seriously? I know the question wasn't directed towards me, but I will take a stab at it anyways. I would ignore everything you just typed(cuz my brain doesn't work like that, when it comes to shooting), look at the available wind indicators, make an estimate based on my experience shooting in same or similar conditions, dial in my educated guess, and shoot my first shot, just like I always do. It's usually pretty darned close. I'd then make corrections for subsequent shots based on the info received from the first. </div></div>

My question is not about estimating wind velocity or direction but rather what to do with the number once you've figured it out. And, since my scenario provides wind velocity and direction all you need to do is calculate the wind counter from information given. How many MOA of drift will you take on the sight?

 

[Erud]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Like I said, my mind doesn't work that way in regards to shooting, and I doubt if yours does either. I do not lay down and begin doing math calculations. I could theoretically have an actual wind value at my firing point if I were to measure with a wind meter(which I don't use when shooting), but how in the real world would I ever acquire actual quantifiable values at mid range and at the target? What about wind 1/4 of the way down? 1/3? What about the wind higher above the ground that I can't see where the bullet will actually travel? It's all estimation, and your question is meaningless, except as a math test.

Let me pose toyou a similar challenge:

You are a bicyclist. You are riding a 1987 Schwinn 10-speed touring bike. You see that ahead is a hill with a 6% grade that makes a 47° right-hand turn 100' from the bottom. You are riding into a steady, 10 mph headwind as you begin down the hill. How many pounds of force must you apply to the brake levers and at what angle will you lean your bicycle to successfully negotiate the hill and corner?

If you can't answer the question with scientific data, does that also mean that you cannot complete the task?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like I said, my mind doesn't work that way in regards to shooting, and I doubt if yours does either. I do not lay down and begin doing math calculations. I could theoretically have an actual wind value at my firing point if I were to measure with a wind meter(which I don't use when shooting), but how in the real world would I ever acquire actual quantifiable values at mid range and at the target? What about wind 1/4 of the way down? 1/3? What about the wind higher above the ground that I can't see where the bullet will actually travel? It's all estimation, and your question is meaningless, except as a math test.

Let me pose toyou a similar challenge:

You are a bicyclist. You are riding a 1987 Schwinn 10-speed touring bike. You see that ahead is a hill with a 6% grade that makes a 47° right-hand turn 100' from the bottom. You are riding into a steady, 10 mph headwind as you begin down the hill. How many pounds of force must you apply to the brake levers and at what angle will you lean your bicycle to successfully negotiate the hill and corner?

If you can't answer the question with scientific data, does that also mean that you cannot complete the task?

</div></div>

Here's what I suspect, all the words here on this thread have not helped you to better understand wind effects. I thought the whole thread was becoming too abstract and it appears I may be right. No matter how your brain works, you must counter for wind and that means you must execute a wind formula.

If interested, here's how I do it: distance divided by 100 times wind value divided by constant equals MOA of drift. If you want to convert MOA to inches: distance divided by 100 times MOA equals inches of drift.

Now, I have provided you with distance to target (600 yards), a constant (10), and a wind at the shooter, mid range, and at the target. You don't need to estimate anything. You don't need to get in touch with the art of it. You have enough information to answer this question in all of about 2 to 5 seconds without the aid of a calculator You do not even need to look up the ballistics for the bullet since I said you could use the constant of 10. What you will need to do is choose a wind value to place in the formula. There have been a lot of words on that in this thread. I have stated I take the mid range wind as my experience with it is good. You seem to have an idea on what wind is important or you have some sort of method to weigh winds so just do that for how ever your brain works for what wind you know and come up with a number. Your answer may be different than mine. You might be right and I may be wrong. Who knows? One thing for sure, doing nothing will assure a miss as well as doing too much. And although most folks can get it right on the second shot wouldn't it be better to get a good hit on the first round? This is not difficult.

All of this stuff is fun. Learning is fun, but, when all this stuff gets too abstract it's difficult for a beginner to grasp. Remember the beginner just wants someone to show him how to do it. The beginner does not want wind theory.

 

[Erud]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Sterling Shooter,
With all due respect, your suspicions have no bearing on reality. I can shoot ok at 600. In regards to your "first round" statement, I would argue that any round is like the first round if conditions are changing. Clearly you are(or were) a Highpower shooter, so here's a HP scenario for you. Let's say the scenario you described above was the condition at the start of your 600 string. You successfully gauge the precise wind speed and heading at your 3 specified locations and use the information to dial your first sighter into the "x" ring. Same for your 2nd. After that, the wind flops over and you have a new condition to shoot for your first shot for record. Now what? You are not likely to have the option of sending your assistants down to mid-range and the target to get you new accurate readings. Do you just stop shooting? If you continue, you are forced to make an estimate on what the new condition is worth, because you really can't know for sure. So what are you going to do?

I already answered your question about your 600 yard scenario. Taking that particular scenario any further is silly, because there just isn't a real situation where you would ever have that info. Even if I did have it, my answer is still the same as I stated above. You have not answered any of my questions, and I've asked you a fair number of them. I'd particularly like to hear your thoughts on my bicycle questions. If you don't like those, I can re-phrase to reflect golf, tennis, frisbee, or whatever you prefer. Even shooting. The concept will be the same.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Jeepers creepers dude, just answer the friggin question. What favor will you take, 1 MOA?, 2 MOA?, 3 MOA?, 6 MOA?. Instead you've just danced around it like it's gonna bite ya. BTW, your protests for why you can't answer the question are really novel. Thing is if you are sincere it means you might want to ask for a refund for what ever wind reading instruction you've paid for.

BTW, as I said in earlier posts, for a 600 yard target on a square range I want to understand the wind at mid range. I will focus my spotting scope somewhere at about 300 yards. I will determine wind value by appraising mirage when possible. I will enter this wind value into my wind formula and adjust sight accordingly. Since EIC tournaments have no sighter shots making first round hits is very important. I have been very successful with EIC events. In my last tournament at Camp Perry I posted a 196 and something which helped me to leg out. At any rate, what you allude to as being difficult or in need of a sprinkling of art is not difficult but does require immediate action. For the pontification you have taken the wind could have changed velocity and direction by the time you had confidence in taking a shot. You remind me of a guy I met on the range a few years ago. He was coaching a beginner on wind. Looking through the spotting scope he advised the shooter after most every shot that the wind got him. I asked the coach what he recommended the shooter do about it. He had no answer. He did not have a clue about what to do. It was a case of the blind leading the blind. The coach replied, "certainly, "being a good shot you know what to do". I said yes I do know what to do the question is do you know what to do? Right now, I'm getting the feeling you may not know what to do even when all you need to do is pick a wind and put it in the formula.

 

[Erud]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

I've answered your question with the way I would actually approach the situation. I have never shot in a scenario where I have been fed exact wind speed and heading at 3 different points on the range, so the numbers don't really mean much to me. I look at the conditions on the range and all available wind indicators - flags, mirage, trees, grass, etc. Make my wind call, and shoot. First sighter is almost always inside the "9" ring. It's not unlikely to be a 10 or X. I make wind calls at the range, not from my desk.

Look up my 600 yard scores from Camp Perry this year if you are convinced I can't shoot. I'll PM you my last name if you like. I could even scan and email you copies of my High Master card and Distinguished Rifleman badge if it would make you feel better.

You still haven't answered a single one of my questions.....

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Gee, this question should be a complete no brainer for you.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Almost makes me glad the range we shoot at has so many wind changes/variables, every shot is the same as a first shot. Been really interesting to watch shooters show up that have shot on flat level ranges and try to calculate what wind to use across all the valleys/hills/tree lines/streams and fields and not even be close. Like some others have mentioned, it's basically a science that you use with all your own senses and experience to make an educated guess that gets easier with real world practice.

For that shot, probably crank or hold off to the left about 4 to 4 1/2moa and let her rip. Hope to see the hit/miss and get off the other shots before conditions change again.. Our LR pistols are a LOT slower than comparable caliber rifles so we have to pay more attention to the wind and can't go on what we see a previous rifle shooting using.

These types of threads start off with good info trying to help others then somehow get turned into what is the exact science used to solve the problem. It just ain't always so in the real world. At some of the stages at Rayners at our 1000 yard matches we've seen ALL indicators in between the targets and shooter showing solid strong winds in one direction but somewhere in that bullets path there is an opposite wind that'll take it the other direction and have even the "experts with all the fancy titles" baffled.

Experience at "home ranges" is a great plus and sometime you take your best Wild Ass Educated Guess and let her fly and then make up for it with better hits on the other shots. Sharing knowledge and experience with others is a great thing here on the Hide and other sites but beating up on others with ones knowledge usually don't help answer questions or help others learn.

Topstrap

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Yep, no question that one can have a "home range" advantage. Which is exactly why all this "calculation" nonsense makes my head hurt. Way too much talking about it and not enough doing it. The best way to learn how to shoot in the wind is to actually shoot in it. There hasnt been jack posted in this thread thats actually going to make you good at it. Get out and play in it, shoot as many different ranges and conditions as you can and then when you think yo got it, the wind is going to up and beat your ass the next match. Just the way it is, deal with it.

 

[Erud]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Sterling Shooter, you are one of he weirdest dudes I've ever gotten into an Internet argument with. Keep hammering the same question that's already been answered while not even acknowledging numerous questions directed specifically AT YOU. Constantly editing all of your posts to change content, etc. Whatever, I'm bored with arguing with you if it only goes one way. You can be the resident guru of "Shooting Fundamentals".

A 196 is a decent score, and one that a lot of guys would be happy with. I just wouldn't have expected that someone who lives on "the highest plateaus of good shooting" would be satisfied with it.

Thanks for all the advice, I will look into getting a refund for the wind reading instruction I've received(?), as you suggested.

Regards,
Erik

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

The key word here is BEGINNER. The beginner begins with basics. The basics are: the bullet is effected by wind and the amount of this effect is determined by the velocity of the wind, the direction of the wind, and the time the bullet is exposed to the wind. The beginning shooter must know how to appraise the wind's value or worth for the purpose of entering such value into a formula to determine the counter for the wind's effect. Since there may be multiple ever changing winds between the shooter's firing position and the target, from which a value would be quite speculative, a formula is often supported with a wind value appraised at mid range exclusively. This is known to work and is a place where the beginner can get off to a good start by simply understanding what a particular wind velocity and direction looks like to the naked eye or through a spotting scope; and, by memorizing a very simple formula, which can be worked without a calculator. That's it. But, this thread has treated wind as if it were something that only the luminary can understand. Abstract thoughts and the suggestion that only by getting out there will one come to understand the wind is just not true. The SDM classroom covers wind and weather. The session is about 15 minutes of lecture. Folks can leave the class and without ever having had any earlier success at 600 yards they can call the wind good enough for a hit on a target that 15 minutes earlier they would not likely have been able to hit for having no knowledge regarding the effect of wind. At any rate, once again, this thread got off to a good start but at some point, perhaps where art was introduced, it got off track I think as being helpful to beginners. Also, if beginners can't answer a basic wind counter problem with all parts required for assembly and more what makes anyone here think they're going to understand the art of it.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling Shooter, you are one of he weirdest dudes I've ever gotten into an Internet argument with. Keep hammering the same question that's already been answered while not even acknowledging numerous questions directed specifically AT YOU. Constantly editing all of your posts to change content, etc. Whatever, I'm bored with arguing with you if it only goes one way. You can be the resident guru of "Shooting Fundamentals".

A 196 is a decent score, and one that a lot of guys would be happy with. I just wouldn't have expected that someone who lives on "the highest plateaus of good shooting" would be satisfied with it.

Thanks for all the advice, I will look into getting a refund for the wind reading instruction I've received(?), as you suggested.

Regards,
Erik</div></div>

No, you have not answered the question. The answer asks for MOA of drift. What is it? And, regarding my scores at Camp Perry, 196 is my average service rifle score. I've only shot match rifle once at Camp Perry but had a 200 clean and 9x as I recall. It was worth a 4th place and 17th finish out of 154 High Master shooters on the line that day. My overall LR score stood at a 198 average with irons until I began shooting my AR based service rifle at 1000 yards a few years ago. With that rifle my average score is about 93 percent.

 

[ashland]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Do you shoot any tactical matches?

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Mountainman308, just happened to notice you are from WV. Not sure which part but if you're anywhere near close enough to want to drive up to Rayners here in Ohio we'd be glad to have you join us for a day of range time. None of us in our lil group are professionally trained or experts and hold no ranking titles in anything but we do manage to hit our share of pretty small targets in very challenging wind conditions. Spending a day with us might help a lot then you can compare what you've learned/seen by doing with what you read in a book or see on a video.

Just another option for you if you're interested. Be just a fun day with no pressure, we go to tweak and spend fun time together and hopefully learn more each time we go out.

Topstrap

 

[_Windrider_]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mountainman308, just happened to notice you are from WV. Not sure which part but if you're anywhere near close enough to want to drive up to Rayners here in Ohio we'd be glad to have you join us for a day of range time. None of us in our lil group are professionally trained or experts and hold no ranking titles in anything but we do manage to hit our share of pretty small targets in very challenging wind conditions. Spending a day with us might help a lot then you can compare what you've learned/seen by doing with what you read in a book or see on a video.

Just another option for you if you're interested. Be just a fun day with no pressure, we go to tweak and spend fun time together and hopefully learn more each time we go out.

Topstrap </div></div>

that right there is what its all about. Helping the next generation. Spreading the knowledge. No ego's. Just having fun with fellow sportsman.

Class act right there Topstrap.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Who knows what it's all about, the thread's subject is however "Reading the wind for beginners" so I kinda thought it might be all about showing the beginner how to do it. It seems there are many folks here who want to help out; but, as one poster alluded, there has been little said here that promotes the beginner's understanding for the effects of wind on external ballistics. Study of the instruction posted here has not, it appears, helped to enlighten beginners or make them knowledgeable about anything they can do about the wind. But, of course, like any thing in this world you get what you pay for. What's any free advice worth? I'm just here for the entertainment. Although now when anyone asks me how to do it at my local range I might be tempted to say, "but don't you see darling it's an art".

Topstrap,

You're a good sport. Thanks for taking a stab at it.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Ya now, I'm getting really tired of this bickering BS.

Why don't you guys just drop trou, lay 'em out on the table, and be done with it.

Enough.

Greg

 

[Erud]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ya now, I'm getting really tired of this bickering BS.

Why don't you guys just drop trou, lay 'em out on the table, and be done with it.

Greg </div></div>

Ok, but I'm only going to lay out enough to win...

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Gee Greg I did not know you were so sensitive. Must be that art thing coming out of ya.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Har!

 

[mountainman308]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

To start with, I had no idea that something seemingly as straight forward as reading wind could cause this kind of debate. I always figured that it was as simple as plug an estimation of wind value into formula "X". Thank ya'll for the information, it was mind opening, especially the exegesis from Lowlight.
Topstrap: Thanks for the invitation, but I'm along the Virginia border, a ways off from Ohio, but if I'm ever in the area I'll be happy to take you up on the offer. I do appreciate it. Heck, I almost trekked up that way to see my best friend in Columbus and go to ya'll's Veterans Day machine-gun shoot. Hold a F class match some time so I have an excuse to get off campus for a weekend and road-trip up that way.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Sorry no F class matches at Rayners, we love hearing that distant ring with a hit too much. The matches are pretty challenging and the wind is as tough to decipher as you'll find anywhere. Range is open about anytime for shooters to use for $10.00 each for the day.

Topstrap

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mountainman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To start with, I had no idea that something seemingly as straight forward as reading wind could cause this kind of debate. I always figured that it was as simple as plug an estimation of wind value into formula "X". Thank ya'll for the information, it was mind opening, especially the exegesis from Lowlight.
Topstrap: Thanks for the invitation, but I'm along the Virginia border, a ways off from Ohio, but if I'm ever in the area I'll be happy to take you up on the offer. I do appreciate it. Heck, I almost trekked up that way to see my best friend in Columbus and go to ya'll's Veterans Day machine-gun shoot. Hold a F class match some time so I have an excuse to get off campus for a weekend and road-trip up that way.
</div></div>

It is as straight forward as you thought. You may not plug in a wind value which gets an exacting result but plugging in a number to your formula and then clicking or holding off is what you do.

My surprise is that even after posting how to do it, allowing for the shooter to judge the wind value using any science/art from the firing point to the target, the only one here who took a stab at answering the question was Topstrap. BTW, Topstrap's favor would result in about 6 to 9 inches more counter for drift than what my calculation using the mid range value would yield. If either one of our calculations was "right on" the other incorrect calculation would still get a hit on something like an E target.

 

[lash]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

As much as this thread and others like it get sidetracked sometimes, the information that can be gleaned from them is still great. As a novice, I take the time to read and practice.

Thanks to all you experienced shooters who do chime in and take the time to expound, no matter how tense it can sometimes get, lol.

 

[mountainman308]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

I'm up for steel matches as well topstrap. When is your first match after Christmas?

 

[calling4life]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mountainman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To start with, I had no idea that something seemingly as straight forward as reading wind could cause this kind of debate. I always figured that it was as simple as plug an estimation of wind value into formula "X". Thank ya'll for the information, it was mind opening, especially the exegesis from Lowlight.
Topstrap: Thanks for the invitation, but I'm along the Virginia border, a ways off from Ohio, but if I'm ever in the area I'll be happy to take you up on the offer. I do appreciate it. Heck, I almost trekked up that way to see my best friend in Columbus and go to ya'll's Veterans Day machine-gun shoot. Hold a F class match some time so I have an excuse to get off campus for a weekend and road-trip up that way.
</div></div>

It is as straight forward as you thought. You may not plug in a wind value which gets an exacting result but plugging in a number to your formula and then clicking or holding off is what you do.

My surprise is that even after posting how to do it, allowing for the shooter to judge the wind value using any science/art from the firing point to the target, the only one here who took a stab at answering the question was Topstrap. BTW, Topstrap's favor would result in about 6 to 9 inches more counter for drift than what my calculation using the mid range value would yield. If either one of our calculations was "right on" the other incorrect calculation would still get a hit on something like an E target.

</div></div>

Let me see if I've got YOU correct, only having just read through this now, never having seen your formula before.

600/100=6 * 10/10(1)=6 now you like a mid range hold which was half value or 3MOA

Is this correct? I didn't go back and check your equation or numbers, but I have an artistic incling I am getting an A.

I'd give it 4'ish though, but my spidey sense doesn't work when I'm not actually there for it to work.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

It's not my formula. I don't know who claims ownership; but, I learned it from the AMU. I use it for HP and LR with 223 and 308 with the constant of 10 and find it more effective than alternatives, even though the constant of 10 is not exact. And, yes, I would put 3 MOA on my sight. The so called wind at the muzzle is not considered in my calculation. I do wonder however how those who do consider it take it into account. I wonder what math they apply for averaging multiple divergent winds. I also wonder when the wind at the firing point is what appears to be opposite mid range wind what the shooter who places emphasis on the wind at the muzzle would do.

 

[_Windrider_]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Here is a no no nonsense great video to help with this.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/p026Y0WUy6Q&feature=channel&list=UL"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/p026Y0WUy6Q&feature=channel&list=UL" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

get the basic information and tools (wind meter, a few observation tips) then get a .22lr and shoot 200 ish yards on a breezy day.

econimical lesson in wind reading, environmental observation, ballistic guestimates, and execution of the shot.

note the way the blades of grass move, the angle of leaves falling, the amount of sway in the trees.

in practice setup several survey ribbons on wood stakes, not ethe angle and direction they are blowing. (angle to the ground will give an estimate of wind speed).

direction of mirage and the speed of the "wiggle"

check out both centerfire and rimfire benchrest techniques. for ARA, as the rifle are bsically some sort of contraption dropped off by martians using alien technology, it's almost all about reading the wind.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

SS, the number you need for multiple winds is the total crosswind component. For example, given a 600 yard target and a .308 shooting 175's, if you have a R-L wind of 10 MPH from the muzzle to 300 yards and a 10 MPH L-R wind from 301 to 600, the net value is not null, it's 4.6 MPH of R-L, requiring .5 MOA right to correct.

With multiple wind values, you look over the whole of the range and use the net effective crosswind value.

Your previous example does not enough information to provide an accurate answer, since it does not have the 'depth' of each wind zone. It's possible that the wind at the shooter is only a yard past the muzzle, or the 'mid range' wind is only a 100 yard band, etc.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

A new shooter has to have a solid baseline, they will not get a solid baseline that builds an effective personal database by constantly guessing the wind downrange, mid-range or anywhere else. You have to start somewhere and unless you are gonna have a coach get you started before you begin shooting, you need a real, quantifiable number, which all begins at the shooter. It's the only place you can read wind to any degree within 1 MPH of actual value.

New shooters, starting off, especially without the aid of others, are best served doping the wind at them and then noting and recording any differences or changes downrange in their datebook.

Once is a blue moon examples of multiple winds at specific, private or public ranges not withstanding, this is the best course of action. Dope the shot at you and then believe the bullet and not what you see. This way you build experience so when those one off situation occur you can effectively adjust.

It all has to start somewhere, starting at the shooter is the smart answer...

Can you dope the wind at you, apply a value to it and then look downrange where your focus is, absolutely. but trying to guess and apply value when you don't have the experience is the hard way to operate. You have to know what you are gonna start with, that means you need a number for the wind speed better than 1 MPH, you can't get that, 300 yards away, 600 yards away, especially 1000 yards away unless you start with the wind at you. A guess that swings, 8 - 10MPH from R-L is not gonna help you when 1 MPH will blow you off more than 10"... guess 8 when it is 10MPH that is a miss, guess 10 when it is 12, that is the miss, read the wind at you then look downrange to determine shifts, gusts, and changes.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

The juxtaposition of the last two posts, one indicating multiple winds require a recognition of the depth of each for accuracy, while the other, which recognizes the former is not possible as a practical matter, assumes the wind at the shooter is the most important wind reading point for the purpose valuing wind, appear to be at odds with one another. Neither is sufficient. It's why I simply attempt to take a wind reading at the mid range point exclusively.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Strange, I don't see anything in Frank's post that indicates that getting the depth of wind zones is not possible. Since he was here just a few weeks ago, doing exactly that and getting first round hits on MOA targets at 1400+ yards, I'm fairly sure it is in fact possible.

Seriously, whatever you are reading to get wind at mid-range you can just as well read at any point along the line of the shot, AND YOU SHOULD! All the wind needs to be accounted for, since it ALL has an effect. If all you see is a mid range value, you are missing most of the picture. I can also tell you for a fact, you will not be having much success with first round hits at 1400+ yards when the target is 12" to 18" wide.

What Frank is saying is that the wind at the shooter is the only wind which we can measure with any absolute precision, since we can use a wind meter. By using the meter, then compareing the effects on things like grass, trees, dust, etc., we then get a better estimate of the down range values.

Without some way to calibrate the shooter's observations to an actual measured value, it's very difficult to understand the wind read process. Suppose there were wind flags placed every 100 yards, but you had no idea of their construction and how they react to any specific wind value. Other than noteing the direction, how would they be of any use? Well, you could shoot, then from the impact point work backwards to determine the actual wind value, then assign than to the flag angles. After enough shots, you'd have a pretty good basis for getting a read off the flags.

You could also use a wind meter and compare that to a flag. Now you KNOW how the flag responds, it's not a guess. We do exactly this process, just without the flags. Granted the downrange natural indicators are not as precise to read as somthing like wind flags, but the process is the same.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The juxtaposition of the last two posts, one indicating multiple winds require a recognition of the depth of each for accuracy, while the other, which recognizes the former is not possible as a practical matter, assumes the wind at the shooter is the most important wind reading point for the purpose valuing wind, appear to be at odds with one another. Neither is sufficient. It's why I simply attempt to take a wind reading at the mid range point exclusively.</div></div>

You are missing a KEY distinction..

My post clearly addresses a NEW SHOOTER...

What Cory is talking about is to accurately predict multiple winds, which a new shooter will have some issue with.

The fact you have years of experience and feel Mid Range wind calls are optimal for you, is neither here nor there, as you took years to develop that skills, years of trial and error, with more error than anything else.

What is your mid range wind call in that case, are you swinging more than 2 MPH with the call ? That is the question and was addressed why downrange calls without an appropriate baseline will fail. More than a 1 MPH errors is a miss on a man sized target at distance.

Nothing spoke of is at odds, even in the XLR Class taught by Cory at Gunsite we use Wind Meters at the shooter to launch a projectile over 2000m. We use that as a baseline and then adjust across the course as required, it all starts at the shooter because a bullet is effected the moment it leaves the bore and does not return to course. So time of flight dictates that first wind will have the greatest long term effect... you can't argue that, ever... nothing supports any other thinking on the subject. Even a small deviation at the muzzle will increase with distance. So knowing what that is first and most accurately helps.

Things have changed since 1978... for the better. Kestrels didn't exist then, now they do and using them are smarter than not.

 

[jolofree]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SS, the number you need for multiple winds is the total crosswind component. For example, given a 600 yard target and a .308 shooting 175's, if you have a R-L wind of 10 MPH from the muzzle to 300 yards and a 10 MPH L-R wind from 301 to 600, the net value is not null, it's 4.6 MPH of R-L, requiring .5 MOA right to correct.

With multiple wind values, you look over the whole of the range and use the net effective crosswind value.

Your previous example does not enough information to provide an accurate answer, since it does not have the 'depth' of each wind zone. It's possible that the wind at the shooter is only a yard past the muzzle, or the 'mid range' wind is only a 100 yard band, etc. </div></div>


Is this answer in this example scenario correct in that the 10mph R to L wind from 0-300 has what is apparently almost Twice the effect as the 10mph wind 301-600 L to R wind resulting in the need for a .5 moa R correction?
It seems like the wind at 301-600 would have more effect on the projectile as it's velocity decreases over time, ie seems like the wind would blow a bullet further from line of sight or POA at 900-1000 rather than 0-100.
am I thinking illogically?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

It's not going as slow as you think, and its based on TOF and the fact once the bullet is blown off course, it stays off course, so deviations at the muzzle have more time to work, as the angle opens it up further, the longer it is in the air. It has more time to drift off target. i

The idea that wind at the target is moving the bullet more because it has slowed down is false, it's too short a distance, with not enough time. Remember in these cases it is still supersonic.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

If you go to JBM and put some numbers in you'll see with a 175gr going 2650fps you have about 1.5 seconds TOF from the muzzle and only .2 seconds from 900 to 1000.

That is why, wind at the muzzle has a lot more time to continue off course.

 

[jolofree]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not going as slow as you think, and its based on TOF and the fact once the bullet is blown off course, it stays off course, so deviations at the muzzle have more time to work, as the angle opens it up further, the longer it is in the air. It has more time to drift off target. i

The idea that wind at the target is moving the bullet more because it has slowed down is false, it's too short a distance, with not enough time. Remember in these cases it is still supersonic. </div></div>



"once the bullet is blown off course, it stays off course" That makes much more sense to me now. Duh the light came on! If I understand what you meant was the first 10mph wind blew the bullet 1moa (3in) Left at 300 and that would have continued to the 600yd line making it strike 1moa (6in) left, except for the resulting 10mph now blowing the bullet 1moa right from 300-600 which equals 3inches or .5moa of correction needed at 600!
Your statement "once the bullet is blown off course, it stays off course" makes more sense than most of what I've heard or read about wind correction in years. Now I Might be able to better figure the swirling winds at BadLands, Thanks jl

 

[jolofree]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Clear Thanks

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Not sure I agree.

Taking my 168 A-max, 2550 fps, out of my M1A takes .699 sec. from the muzzle to 500 yards, 1.7 sec. to 1000.

So between 500 & 1000 it has about 1 sec more exposure to the wind then it does from 0-500 yards.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

1.7 (total TOF to 1000) - .699 (0 to 500) = 1.001 (TOF for 500 to 1000), so the difference is .302, not 1 second.

So, the 500 to 1000 would move the bullet more in inches than the 0 to 500. BUT, the angular error at 500 continues the rest of the way to 1000.

Using a 175 at 2730 at my altitude, 10 MPH from 0 to 500 and 0 from 501 to 1000 means I need 5.3 MOA, 0 from 0 to 499 and 10 MPH from 500 to 1000 needs 2.8 MOA.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure I agree.

Taking my 168 A-max, 2550 fps, out of my M1A takes .699 sec. from the muzzle to 500 yards, 1.7 sec. to 1000.

So between 500 & 1000 it has about 1 sec more exposure to the wind then it does from 0-500 yards.</div></div>

Kraig,

Maybe pictures will help, if you take Cory's numbers and overlay them to this image you can see the slight difference, but not enough to overcome the TOF from 100 yards to 1000 yards.

I scaled this as best I can, the Angles are identical and I simply moved the 100 yard angle to 500 yards (using inches here) and while at the same place, 500 yards, the angle at 1000 increases, it only increases a small amount. The total 100 to 1000 yard angle is still bigger.

The Red Line is the width at 1000 yards when you start at 100, the green is the same angle but starting at Mid Range (500) and ended up at 1000. It has a small Width increase over the original angle starting at 100, but it's not huge, unlike what happens when the angle plays out completely. So the slow down makes a difference if you bring both to 500, black angle vs green line, but if you see the end results, Red & Green, the original angle is greater.

It's why, technically, Wind at the Shooter has the greatest influence because once it starts off course it stays off course and has the most amount of time in the air to deviate... no where else is the time the same so the angle remains smaller.

The bullet just isn't slowing down as much as people think, unless you start talking subsonic vs supersonic, but in all these cases it is still supersonic and only changes a little... like Cory said, .302, not 1 second. You can subtract the time from half to 1000, but still remember, the bullet has all the TOF to move from 100.

Not perfect, but at least some what visual ...

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

tag

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Frank & Cory - The diagram explains it better. (Yeah I was a bit off on my math).

Still, seems like you get more drift between 500 & 1000 then 0 - 500.

But it looks like I'm wrong.

I'm gonna take my gongs out and get a wind reading at the Firing point and again at 500 and see what happens.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Well, in pure inches over 500 yards of travel, yes, you do get more movement from 500 to 1000 than from 0 to 500.

Look at the green line at 500. The angular value from 0 to 500 is less than the green line, which is the deviation value from 500 to 1000. But the error continues for another 500 yards, hence the bigger total error over the full distance.

 

[Callidus98]

Re: Reading the wind for beginners

Listening to the guys here is a good place to start. As a newb myself I found the NSSF Youtube videos helpful. There is about a dozen and each is 4 to 8 minutes long and gives a very basic tutorial. the topics range from mounting a scope to cleaning a rifle to reading wind.

Has anybody else around here seen these? Any thoughts?