Advanced Marksmanship "Reading" wind

[Ledzep]

While shooting longer ranges, my plan of attack is to take note of the wind at my location, and measure it with a kestrel if I have one. Then I'm left with mirage and lots of it. I don't really know of anything else to look at (mind you, I'm in the desert. Not much veg). So I guess my question to those of you who are more experienced than me, is it just a matter of experience watching mirage then "sensing" the correct windage hold?

I can definitely tell what direction the wind is blowing down range based on mirage. And I think I've noticed that as the wind blows harder, the target looks more and more like the exhaust from a jet (blurry and more rapidly shimmering). In between a boil and a light breeze is hard for me to tell exactly how hard it's blowing, and once it gets real blurry, I have issues determining if I need 1 mil or 1.3-1.5 mils hold. In short, I got a general idea, but I'm not seeing exactly what shows specificity to get me exactly on target.

Is it just a "pay attention and shoot more" solution?

I've also noticed that within 600yd I have a much easier time. Beyond 600-700yd.. who knows... Case in point;

533yd fairly consistent light winds, I held 0.2-0.3 mils right depending on what I saw. Here's 5 rounds

And 772yd. Crapshoot. At least double-triple the angular horizontal dispersion. All of the rounds that hit were within about 4" of vertical spread. Wind at my location was fairly consistent. 4-6mph coming from my rear. Down-range it was variable speed and direction. I had hits holding 1 mil left, dead center, and 1.4 mils right...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIDJYMqGjPc

 

[sinister]

I can definitely tell what direction the wind is blowing down range based on mirage. And I think I've noticed that as the wind blows harder, the target looks more and more like the exhaust from a jet (blurry and more rapidly shimmering). In between a boil and a light breeze is hard for me to tell exactly how hard it's blowing, and once it gets real blurry, I have issues determining if I need 1 mil or 1.3-1.5 mils hold. In short, I got a general idea, but I'm not seeing exactly what shows specificity to get me exactly on target.

Is it just a "pay attention and shoot more" solution?

Buy or make a wind flag (or flags -- the more you have, the better). Put them out halfway or maybe 1/3 and 2/3 of the ranges you think you want to shoot that day.

Of course there are no wind flags in combat. There are also no Hajjis on rifle ranges shooting, rocketing, or mortaring your ass, nor (usually) IEDs trying to blow your shit up on your way to and from your favorite shooting spot (I could be wrong -- I no longer live east of the Mississippi).

Science and money will give you a precision firing solution but cannot replace practice, experience, and familiarity with your equipment, ammunition, and ability to consistently fire the weapon.

From an old post here:

You can make or buy wind flags. Joann's or Hancock's in town usually has red and yellow flag nylon, or you can buy it online at Sailrite.

Here are some flags (besides Creedmoor) on-line:

Of course you'll never find them in the field whether shooting at game or booger eaters shooting at you -- I've never been on a range (yet) where someone was deliberately trying to kill me while I was practicing, checking out a gun, or developing loads, either.

If you have the luxury to take a second shot after you miss with an initial "Spotter" round good on you. If you miss or wound a moose, bull elk, caribou, mulie, or pronghorn (or the folks you aimed at start shooting at you) you have different calculus.

Use them or don't, they're just another training aid or tool. They can help you save ammo and aggravation by helping you judge your wind calls. If you don't know why you're missing what's the point? If you're not using flags what are you taking your visual cues from? A Kestrel gives you winds where you are.

Crawl - walk - run. You certainly don't NEED them, and in the field you won't have them. Only you can determine if they'll be helpful at your present state of technical proficiency.

If you just got started they can help. If you can teach classes at a Master Instructor level, hungover, before your first cup of coffee at 12,000 feet on a Taliban hunt after a bar fight last night before you bedded two smoking hot stewardesses you probably don't.

 

[Ledzep]

Hmm that is a good idea! The problem is that I go out and shoot on BLM land, so every time I go, I pack everything out, and back in. If I leave it there, there's a good chance an ATV/bike rider is gonna go screw with it, and I'm not sure the legality of putting poles in the ground. I'd have to rig something up that will collapse down to fit in my Jeep Patriot.

I would think I'd want something tall enough to get 10-20ft off the ground for my max ordinant. Maybe a good project for this week/weekend.

 

[MikeeBooshay]

Here is a simple suggestion, try just tying a couple feet of surveyors tape to your target. A little breeze moves it a lot, it's cheap, and available. If you want to take it one level higher, a couple 4 ft pieces of dowel or PVC, with a bit of that on top works well. If the breeze is higher, use a length of heavy ribbon instead.

Don't worry about getting higher, you are going to use this to refine your mirage reading skills, dust, read anything that moves.

Oh, and there are wind flags in Haji-land, walking wind flags, man dresses can be used for wind read too!

 

[sinister]

For a jeep or pickup you can build very portable wind flag poles.

Go to Home Depot and get a steel fence post; a big swingin' hammer; a collapsing painter's pole; and a roll of duct tape.

Hammer the picket into the ground perhaps a foot deep. Tape your wind flag to the painter's pole and extend the pole to full length. Tape the pole to the fence picket.

Once you're done the pole comes down, you cut the tape and roll the flag up into a ditty bag, and collapse the pole. Pull the picket out of the ground and you've left no trace.

Steve and Willie on Utah BLM land:

 

[djskit]

I can definitely tell what direction the wind is blowing down range based on mirage. And I think I've noticed that as the wind blows harder, the target looks more and more like the exhaust from a jet (blurry and more rapidly shimmering). [/url]

This may be a fine point, but from your description, you are looking at the target not the mirage. Play around with your parallax and focus away from the target to get a better read on the mirage at different distances.

it just a "pay attention and shoot more" solution?[/url]

YES!

also noticed that within 600yd I have a much easier time. Beyond 600-700yd.. who knows...[/url]

Welcome to long range shooting! I didn't note your round, but if its a 308 with 175, things really get challenging past 600.

You are on the right track, an do need some coaching on what to look for - but really, the only thing that can increase your wind skill is time behind the rifle, watching the signs and seeing what that does to your bullet. There are no short-cuts

 

[Ledzep]

That seems easy enough (flag construction). It's a bit of a pain, pounding stakes into the gravel out here, but it can be done. Worst comes to worst I can pile rock up at the base of it. I'll see about getting some of those materials this week.

Skit, I'm sorry for the confusion, but when I look at mirage I generally go a touch to the left or right of the target. I should have said "sight picture" instead of just the target. I look for hill-tops in between myself and the target. I'm generally lost shooting over big valleys, though. There is not a lot of mirage to see. I have not had the best luck focusing on mirage at various distances in between myself and the target, either. At least, I haven't ever focused at one distance and seen it blowing one way, then seen anything different at different ranges. The day that the video above was made, I remember watching the mirage go steadily R-L, then slow down, boil, and flip flop a bit either way, then go L-R and increase in strength. Mirage is sort of an all-inclusive single frame thing. I couldn't notice different ranges doing different things. I have to go back to base for 2 more days before I get out on terminal leave this week, but I'll take my spotting scope and just watch around on base.

 

[M40_A1]

Remember, too, to be sure that you are focusing ahead (closer) of any object you are using as your background. If you take the focus beyond your background reference, the mirage will often appear to flow the opposite direction.

 

[tnichols]

What causes this or how can it be? ^^^^

 

[Sterling Shooter]

What causes this or how can it be? ^^^^

It could be that the wind at greater distance is indeed blowing in another direction. At any rate, focusing the spotting scope on the target and then turning the focus knob a 1/4 turn counter clockwise will focus on the mirage at mid range and provide an average of wind velocity and direction from shooter to target, while still allowing for spotting disc placement to be seen on target.

 

[M40_A1]

What causes this or how can it be? ^^^^

I don't know, but I can say that I didn't believe it when I first heard about it. Try it for yourself. Find a berm with a good mirage signature in front of it, and focus one way, then the other. When you go out of focus "past" the berm (though obviously not really looking past the solid berm), the mirage often looks to be running the opposite direction from when you focus ahead of it (usually by turning counter-clockwise, like Sterling said). The reverse mirage has a more grainy look to it, for lack of a better description. Once you see the difference take note so you can recognize it if you make the mistake later on.

 

[tnichols]

I've personally noticed this on a couple of occasions, hence why I asked. Nice way of saying/admitting that I've been fooled by the same illusion. Basically mind f-#^ed it to the point I held on the wrong side. Both times at extended ranges, barren terrain, no flags, etc... Even talked a shooting buddy into believing me once...I was wrong

 

[Ledzep]

I went back out this morning at like 3:30am to sight in a night vision scope on my AR. I brought along the .260 in hopes of catching some time without mirage as the sun came up. It was plenty windy, however, there was no mirage. This week got stupid hectic so I didn't have time to rig up wind flags. "Next time"...

The really fortunate thing about not having mirage is that I could watch what little foliage that is out here very clearly. A couple of types of bushes are especially useful for determining direction and speed. I set the target at 730yd, 6500ft DA, wind was blowing 7-10mph at my position coming from about 10:30. I watched a bush next to me for a while and saw what was moving at what speed the kestrel said, then looked through my binos toward the target. There's a 200yd wide washout right in front of me, but from about 240 to close to 400yd was a level plane between me and the target. Across all of that level plane I could see the bushes doing almost exactly what the one next to me was. At the target I could see the veg very clearly but it didn't appear to be moving at all. No flickers, no sways, nothing.

I held 0.3 mills left for my cold bore shot and hit. 3 of the next 4 also hit. The miss was my fault, getting used to how I set the Jewell. I kept shooting as the sun came up and windspeed increased. The majority were hits. I think of 15 rounds fired 3 missed, all just right of the plate (~2 moa wide). Later on I brought the plate in to 560yd but in a different direction to get full value wind. By then, the wind had picked up a lot-- 10-15mph where I was in the bottom, 15-20mph+ on top of the hill where the plate was. My ballistic computer was giving me 1.2 Mils correction for wind and I didn't believe it could be THAT much. I was wrong. The wind was steadily increasing and by the end of 10 rounds I was holding 1.6 to get center hits. It was 14-18mph with gusts over 20 at my location. That's when I called it a day and packed up.

Quite a bit learned. Flags are 1st on the to-do list before I head out again. I keep thinking back to how helpful it would have been this morning to have them.

 

[M40_A1]

... I didn't believe it could be THAT much. I was wrong.

Most people underestimate wind value. It's against human nature to deviate from target center when the center is the goal. Believe your calculations. Sometimes our gut says to fudge the numbers, but more likely than not we end up underestimating. Realizing that helps to speed the learing curve. Sounds like you had a great day at the range, and learned a lot.

Remember that flags are just another learning tool for field shooting. Don't neglect your observation skills just because the flags make things "easier". Couple the flag readings with your observation of the other "tools" of mirage, feel, and movement of objects, so you can make good calls when you don't have the flags down range.

 

[Ledzep]

Absolutely. I only want solid feedback to confirm what I think I see in the foliage or mirage. It happens regularly that I'm convinced something is happening, go balls to the walls with it, then throw a shot way off. Likewise, I'll believing nothing is happening, and the wind takes it. It would be nice to have an accompanying check method to attempt to resolve those occurrences.

 

[BGE541]

While shooting longer ranges, my plan of attack is to take note of the wind at my location, and measure it with a kestrel if I have one. Then I'm left with mirage and lots of it. I don't really know of anything else to look at (mind you, I'm in the desert. Not much veg). So I guess my question to those of you who are more experienced than me, is it just a matter of experience watching mirage then "sensing" the correct windage hold?

I can definitely tell what direction the wind is blowing down range based on mirage. And I think I've noticed that as the wind blows harder, the target looks more and more like the exhaust from a jet (blurry and more rapidly shimmering). In between a boil and a light breeze is hard for me to tell exactly how hard it's blowing, and once it gets real blurry, I have issues determining if I need 1 mil or 1.3-1.5 mils hold. In short, I got a general idea, but I'm not seeing exactly what shows specificity to get me exactly on target.

Is it just a "pay attention and shoot more" solution?

I've also noticed that within 600yd I have a much easier time. Beyond 600-700yd.. who knows... Case in point;

533yd fairly consistent light winds, I held 0.2-0.3 mils right depending on what I saw. Here's 5 rounds

And 772yd. Crapshoot. At least double-triple the angular horizontal dispersion. All of the rounds that hit were within about 4" of vertical spread. Wind at my location was fairly consistent. 4-6mph coming from my rear. Down-range it was variable speed and direction. I had hits holding 1 mil left, dead center, and 1.4 mils right...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIDJYMqGjPc

Only from personal experiance can I say that when winds pick up I tend to underestimate things (in terms of wind speed). But also as wind picks up I have to focus on the basics because if I try and speed things up and only focus on wind, the 3* of Cant that I dont notice can really make my dialing/holding for wind a LOT more complicated... YMMV.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

I won't claim to provide all the answers, but I will throw in my 2 cents. First, know that wind closer to the shooter has the greatest effect upon the path of the bullet. As the bullet gets closer to the target, wind does not have the opportunity to "redirect" as it does when it's close to the shooter. Moral of the story: Pay more attention to the winds AT your position than AT the target. What goes on in between is more of a judgement call, and thus, the reason why experience will make the difference!

Second: I have yet to disprove this. The mirage always changes before the wind flags will tell you of a change. Moral of the story: pay more attention to the mirage AND mirage change, than to wind force. Now, for any arm-chair shooters, don't bother chiming in on this one. But, if you're a bad-ass, hard core trigger puller and you've seen differently, please PM me and let me know your thoughts.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

My contribution is only worth a penny, but here it is:

B/c I shoot in middle of the nowhere forest and I am almost always shooting across / up / down a draw with numerous significant elevation changes in the immediate area -

A) I can not put up flags and therefore have to rely on sound (indicator of a change in wind velocity), movement of veg - grass to big tree limbs, or mirage.

B) I have to come to an understanding of the impact of terrain on the observed wind. The net effect of significant topo changes that culminate in a draw are akin to a funnel - ie all preceding topo induced disruptions are concentrated coming up / down / across the draw. Secondly depending on the location of the target in relationship to the top of the draw vs the next vertical, or a significant narrowing of the draw itself (think of a back wall for the wind to hit once it comes up the draw), may effect the wind by either slowing (due to competing wind vectors) or reversing it.

As a self taught person I have come to see wind as 50% art, 50% science. I look at the area terrain, make a call on what it means to the wind based on wind direction. While I take a wind reading at the shooter's position it means virtually nothing. Next I look for movement of veg both above and below the elevation of the target, then look at the mirage at the target and @ 3/4s of the way to the target. I tend to go off of simple calls and gut feel - at 3/4s of the distance, angle of mirage * 4 = speed, 0.25 MILs per 100 yrds for a full value 10 mph wind (.308). Those are the jump off points for what I feel is the correct call.

Here is last Saturday: 1072 yards, 11.2 Mil E, with 2.0 - 2.5 of left wind hold, of note - wind at the shooting position was 1 - 3 mph, 10 rounds were fired at this target. I was checking the spotter between each shot. Wind was hitting the back wall and reversing then shifting back to the prevailing direction every 30 - 45 seconds. Obviously I missed 3 or 4 shifts.

 

[sinister]

Wind flags tell you what air has done (as far as recent history) while mirage is telling you what it's doing as you're watching it.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

<--- question RE: reading wind flags


So I have read about reading wind flags but rarely shoot in locations where they are present. Since I don't know much about them I tend not to pay any attention to them when I am around them.

My my question is: How do you know what the wind speed is from the flag when there is no standard weight and size of a flag?(maybe there is a standard and I am just clueless).


TIA

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

I won't claim to provide all the answers, but I will throw in my 2 cents. First, know that wind closer to the shooter has the greatest effect upon the path of the bullet. As the bullet gets closer to the target, wind does not have the opportunity to "redirect" as it does when it's close to the shooter. Moral of the story: Pay more attention to the winds AT your position than AT the target. What goes on in between is more of a judgement call, and thus, the reason why experience will make the difference!

I thought the opposite was true. Isn't most of the wind drift of a bullet occurring in the second half of it's flight because it is not going as fast anymore and is in the air longer than the first half of it's flight?

I was at the range the other day, shooting 600 yards. Due to the vegetation and the configuration of the berms on all sides of the range, wind was almost nil at the shooting line and about 10-12 mph down range. Almost everyone underestimated the wind drift because they were using the wind at the firing line, which was almost nothing.

I think you're dead wrong.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

So what do you do if you're shooting out in "the wild" with no wind flags, etc.?

 

[fargo007]

I like where it went with 50% science and 50% art.

I would say it's 1/3 art, 1/3 science and 1/3 experience.

Shooting "out in the wild" you learn to look for wind indicators. Sometimes you have to look harder than you want to, and it's amazing what you find when your original five second assessment was that there was nothing there to help at all....

Wind flags definitely work, and while good for initial training, they are a crutch in that they don't force a shooter to learn to actually *LOOK* for wind indicators. At least for a shooter who intends to develop the skill of shooting where there are no wind flags present. If all you shoot is F-Class, etc then it doesn't matter.

--Fargo007

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

While shooting longer ranges, my plan of attack is to take note of the wind at my location, and measure it with a kestrel if I have one. Then I'm left with mirage and lots of it. I don't really know of anything else to look at (mind you, I'm in the desert. Not much veg). So I guess my question to those of you who are more experienced than me, is it just a matter of experience watching mirage then "sensing" the correct windage hold?

I can definitely tell what direction the wind is blowing down range based on mirage. And I think I've noticed that as the wind blows harder, the target looks more and more like the exhaust from a jet (blurry and more rapidly shimmering). In between a boil and a light breeze is hard for me to tell exactly how hard it's blowing, and once it gets real blurry, I have issues determining if I need 1 mil or 1.3-1.5 mils hold. In short, I got a general idea, but I'm not seeing exactly what shows specificity to get me exactly on target.

Is it just a "pay attention and shoot more" solution?

Ledzep,

I shoot in very similar conditions in the same BLM land you shoot in. You are on the right track.

It is pretty simple. Shoot as much as you can and learn from your mistakes. A log or data book is very helpful. Do not try and make wind flags and such. That is a waste of time. In all of the competitions that I have competed in, there was no flag in sight. The competitions with flags are not realistic and should only be used for practice. Take for example this years Sniper's Hide Cup. All of our situations were considered "problems" that required the shooter to think about how to solve the "problem". There were many different solutions and it was the most versatile shooter that won the match.

So by trial and error, you will get an understanding of what you observe and what its effect on the bullet is. There is a saying, trust the bullet because the bullet does not lie. Use the Kestrel to gauge the wind. Just look at the conditions and then guess at the wind value, both in direction and speed. Then go out with your Kestrel and measure. Over time, you will gain an understanding of what you perceive and what is actually happening. Think about shooting from various distances in various positions. This will make you a much better shooter.

With all of that said, have you looked at the Kestrel with Applied Ballistics?

 

[sinister]

Relying on ANY gadget besides your eyeballs and your cumulative shooting experience is a crutch. Forget a Kestrel or have batteries die and you're hosed.

Flags are a training aid -- you won't have them in combat. Games (where real objectives and lives are not at stake) are a different story. I've never had someone shooting back at me from the target line.

True, you may be competing at Olympic levels, but even then it comes down to the trigger puller. All a matter of perspective -- if you kill that rock chuck at 776 yards do you win a $10,000 check? If you completely jack up that first 445-yard shot do the guys you're providing overwatch protection to get unmasked for machinegun and RPG fire?

There is usually SOME kind of wind indicator out there, be it leaves and limbs, dust, grass, or water. I've given wind calls based off mirage coming off the hoods of idling cars, judging direction using lengths of yarn.

Use them or not. If you choose not to, don't be surprised of it takes longer for you to get a clue.

On the exaggerated other end benchresters are shooting for smack-talking points, stacking bullets into itty-bitty holes 100 and 200 yards downrange.

A wind flag can be as simple as an M16 or 60/249 cleaning rod with a streamer made from the strap of an M16 ammo bandolier or 7.62 ammo bag (if you're in a .mil infantry unit they're always around somewhere). It's already in neutral .mil color and are relatively cheap to fabricate.

You can build a few wind flags with poles and buy a jacket zipper-pull thermometer for what it costs for a basic Kestrel.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Relying on ANY gadget besides your eyeballs and your cumulative shooting experience is a crutch. Forget a Kestrel or have batteries die and you're hosed.

There you are interjecting truth, with your experience hammer, onto that nail of perception, again.

 

[Jaeger308]

Wind is a female she can love you and or hate you, she needs to be figured out, caressed, softly talked too, pampered, squeezed and at times manhandled, but in the end, can still be a bitch. (Any females reading this please reverse the analogy into a bastard).

For new shooters a suggestion is first make wind calls at your firing position, use what you have and come up with a solution. Keep a log/record of these personal solutions and over time look for tendencies of over calling or under calling. Next step is start to judge changes in the wind at your position; this is a major learning step in the process. Learning what a wind change feels or looks like will allow for better down range calls.

Down range wind calls, it is not voodoo, black magic, waving a bag of chicken bones, but just attention to detail, patience and practice. Indicators vary, use what you get. Mirage will not lie to you flags will. This time of year cottonwood is floating, good stuff. If you get nothing down range to read wind, go to school on your first round, quickly firing a second before conditions change. Also learn how to reverse call wind, after sending a round use its impact, center or not, run numbers for that impact and get a picture of what that wind condition looks like. Ballistic programs work well for this reverse calling drill especially in ELR with multiple wind zones.

Time permitting, be patient, on training days look and judge more before sending rounds.

 

[fargo007]

Well....... you want the kestrel for density altitude much more than the wind. I don't think I have ever used it for wind reading other than to make sure it worked when I bought it. LOL

/Fargo007

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I use my VX6R for DA it's close enough for gov work as they say. W/ como being vital option SU-1 allowed shedding dead weight
Yaesu VX-6R VX6R Amateur HT
Yaesu SU-1
Yaesu VC-24 VOX Headset

 

[LRShooter101]

Wind flags tell you what air has done (as far as recent history) while mirage is telling you what it's doing as you're watching it.

Leave it to the Master, you need to get that one Copyrighted and/or Trademarked! As always your comments are worth their weight in gold.

Hope all is well with life outside of the Military.

 

[LRShooter101]

I won't claim to provide all the answers, but I will throw in my 2 cents. First, know that wind closer to the shooter has the greatest effect upon the path of the bullet. As the bullet gets closer to the target, wind does not have the opportunity to "redirect" as it does when it's close to the shooter. Moral of the story: Pay more attention to the winds AT your position than AT the target. What goes on in between is more of a judgement call, and thus, the reason why experience will make the difference!

Second: I have yet to disprove this. The mirage always changes before the wind flags will tell you of a change. Moral of the story: pay more attention to the mirage AND mirage change, than to wind force. Now, for any arm-chair shooters, don't bother chiming in on this one. But, if you're a bad-ass, hard core trigger puller and you've seen differently, please PM me and let me know your thoughts.

Sorry for not PMing you, but since you threw this out in the public, then I figure it deserves a reply in the public.

Not sure if my credentials qualify as a bad-ass hard core trigger puller, but here goes:

ALL WIND between the shooter and target MUST be taken into consideration. Ignoring any of it can result in a missed call and a missed target.

Examples:
- What is more important, a 3-5 mph wind closer to the shooter or a 10-15 mph wind closer to the target. Answer, they both are.
- What about a 3-5 mph wind closer to the shooter blowing Left to Right, and a 3-5 mph wind closer to the target blowing 3-5 mph Right to Left? Will they just cancel each other out? No. Which one matters, they both do.
- BC is velocity dependent, and as the bullet slows at distance the BC drops. What is going to have more impact, a 5 mph wind on a bullet with max velocity and BC or a 5 mph wind on a bullet with a minimum velocity and BC. Once again, they are both important.
- The path of a bullet will travel an arc in some cases placing it hundreds of feet in the air. What is more important, the wind conditions at ground level closer to the shooter, or the wind conditions higher up midway to the target? They both are.

The newer / better ballistic programs will allow you to enter multiple wind values and directions at multiple distances between the shooter and target. This will give you the best firing solutions possible, assuming you can get good data to enter into the program.

Bottom line, you should take ALL wind conditions between the shooter and target into account if you want an accurate firing solution.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Bottom line, you should take ALL wind conditions between the shooter and target into account if you want an accurate firing solution.

I agree whole heartedly. Thank you for pointing this out.

 

[LRShooter101]

On the subject of wind:

- Whatever you put out like flags, should be a learning aid, helping you to read/judge wind conditions, but per above they should not become a crutch that you become dependent on because they may not always be there when you are shooting. You have to learn how to translate what the flags are showing you into other indicators present wherever you are shooting.

- Remember not all flags are created equal, and they do not all show wind speed and direction the same. Make sure you understand how the design of whatever you are actually using is responding to the wind.

- Portable weather stations can help reading/judging wind conditions. Direction that some folks are going:
WSA | Applied Ballistics, LLC
There are obviously simpler / cheaper options out there on the commercial market.

- Remember wind is like water, it flows and follows terrain, and it can also do some very unpredictable stuff. Using smoke can help you see what it is actually doing and can show things that you would never be able to see or understand otherwise. Check out Lowlight's DVD:
Sniper's Hide Day One DVD

- Good resources on wind:
Reading the Wind ? USAMU Tips within AccurateShooter.com

Jim Owens Books

http://www.amazon.com/The-Wind-Book-Rifle-Shooters/dp/1581605323

Prone & Long Range Rifle Shooting - Home

Per above, it takes a solid academic foundation, coupled with a real world skill set, honed putting it all together sending many rounds down range.

 

[mcfred]

I don't have much to contribute other than I pay attention to my firing position, obstacles that can affect local preception of wind and I look for things (including mirage) to give me an indication of what the wind's doing near and far.

I have seen head winds and tail winds over hills cause vertical drift and I have noticed that shooting in the montains versus the plains is much harder with additional turbulence from terrian features.

This was over at Accurate Shooter. I've not noticed vertical displacement from a boiling mirage, but it could explain some of my misses:

South Texas Marksmanship Training Center - Reading Mirage

Lastly, smooth, quick technique when shooting can help you get more rounds off in a shorter period of time which helps in shifting wind conditions. At the Raton Sporting Rifle Match some of the FNGs take all 4 minutes to get their rounds off and conditions over that period can and will change if you dally.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

- Remember not all flags are created equal, and they do not all show wind speed and direction the same. Make sure you understand how the design of whatever you are actually using is responding to the wind.
e.

This is is at the heart if my question above. If different flags give different reads based on differing size and materials (heavy cotton vs thin nylon), enjoying even differing rates of evaporation when wet - they seems to be 'local' wind indicators unlike mirage. So for those that utilize flags, esp those that shooting in multiple locations - is the nature of the flag something you investigate when you first get to the 'new' range?

The newer / better ballistic programs will allow you to enter multiple wind values and directions at multiple distances between the shooter and target. This will give you the best firing solutions possible, assuming you can get good data to enter into the program.

How many that have a handle on wind screw with this (is this something I should be?) I guess part of this would depend on the terrain nearest the shooters position. I can see the value if it was a Mesa or a wide plain where a level of consistency is possible, but I am not sure how this works where there are numerous and diverse topo features in close proximity - all of which can create (or not create) independent vortices / eddies that are individually or cumulatively driven by both variables of speed and direction.

 

[LRShooter101]

There are a number of references (I listed some above) that will give you general values for flags. Obviously the values listed are only good for a given set of conditions which you will have to verify. If I have the chance, I am going to look at a flag, reference what that flag behavior should mean, and come up with a wind speed. I am then going to check the wind speed with a Kestrel as close to the flag as I can, and see how the 2 jive. That will give me a working model for that particular situation. Speed is hard to get 100%, but with enough practice reading flags, you can generally get it fairly close. IMHO, the big thing with flags is that they can give you a clear picture of direction and changes, especially at locations further down range. A lot of misses at long range are not due just to mis-estimation of wind speed, but because the shooter does not have a clear picture of the direction or changes taking place.

IMHO, there are wind conditions that you can shoot effectively in, and there are wind conditions that you will just be pissing in.
You must be able to:
1 - IDENTIFY the wind. Per many comments above, there are times and places where that is next to impossible. If you don't have some type of reliable indicator along the full flight path of the bullet, then there is little you can do pre-shot.
2 - QUANTIFY the conditions. You must be able to properly read the indicators and come up with values for speed and direction.
3 - QUALIFY the conditions. Is the speed and direction consistent, predictable, or an irregular mess.
4 - PROCESS the data collected and come up with a proper firing solution.
5 - CORRECT the data based on actual observations and results.

There will be plenty of situations where you will not be able to do some (or all) of the above. In those situations your chances of a first round hit will come down to luck. However that is when you must be able to observe your impact, and then be able to make proper corrections for follow up shots.

I have heard many people talk a mean game of wind estimation, but I have seen few who can actually produce first round results in challenging real world conditions. Do your best, but don't go nuts trying to fight a wind condition that you just can't deal with.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

In my little world - esp as I tend to shoot by myself - the ability to spot Mikes is critical. I agree you with on the point of real distance, real wind, a few tricky nuances - first round hits are luck. I play a game with myself few times a year: same time / same place for a week / single 10 round group for score. Call and track the hits for the week. Tally my CB hit percentage and percentage of hits (A-D scoring) on the remaining 9 at the end of the week.

 

[sinister]

Mike, this is why Service Rifle Excellence-in-Competition Matches are such good practice.

1) They are shot with no sighters;
2) Everyone shoots (generally) equivalent rifles and ammo; and
3) Your wind calls and elevation data need to be spot-on to place within the top 10% of all scores for the day to get any credit, ranking, or distinction.

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

Examples:
- What is more important, a 3-5 mph wind closer to the shooter or a 10-15 mph wind closer to the target. Answer, they both are.

In this instance, I would have to say that the 10-15 mph wind closer to the target is more important. Yes, they are both important, but if you had to adjust for one and not the other, it would definitely be the stronger, downrange wind.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

In this instance, I would have to say that the 10-15 mph wind closer to the target is more important. Yes, they are both important, but if you had to adjust for one and not the other, it would definitely be the stronger, downrange wind.

What's important is the average wind from target to shooter. Some of the most experienced shooters instruct to appraise mid range wind to understand the average wind from shooter to target. This is what I do. Results in EIC as well as in NRA LR have proven this technique is effective. I remember an EIC event years ago at Camp Atterbury. I had a miss at 200 which suggested I was going to have a very long day. At any rate, at 300 I read a 10 MPH full value wind at mid from 9; and, I therefore put 3 minutes left on my sight. I shot a 99 and something. Interestingly. Of the 40 shooters on the line that day only myself and one other shooter took the mid range wind. It appears others either took no wind favor or took the wind at the target and firing line which was 10 mph full value from 3. Most of these shooters lost 50 plus points, which, as it was, put me back into the competition and a second place finish with a 474 and 14. This was worth 8 leg points which was enough to wrap up my pursuit of the DR award. Boy, was I glad I took the mid range wind.

 

[Erud]

What's important is the average wind from target to shooter. Some of the most experienced shooters instruct to appraise mid range wind to understand the average wind from shooter to target. This is what I do. Results in EIC as well as in NRA LR have proven this technique is effective. I remember an EIC event years ago at Camp Atterbury. I had a miss at 200 which suggested I was going to have a very long day. At any rate, at 300 I read a 10 MPH full value wind at mid from 9; and, I therefore put 3 minutes left on my sight. I shot a 99 and something. Interestingly. Of the 40 shooters on the line that day only myself and one other shooter took the mid range wind. It appears others either took no wind favor or took the wind at the target and firing line which was 10 mph full value from 3. Most of these shooters lost 50 plus points, which, as it was, put me back into the competition and a second place finish with a 474 and 14. This was worth 8 leg points which was enough to wrap up my pursuit of the DR award. Boy, was I glad I took the mid range wind.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

As always there are several members who are contributing to this thread and making it a teaching moment. I thank you all.


ETA for a 'read it in a book' guy like myself I marvel at the level of accomplished shooters here and their willingness to give back - not just in this thread but throughout the forum.

 

[Erud]

As always there are several members who are contributing to this thread and making it a teaching moment. I thank you all.

No problem Mike, I'm happy to help out.

 

[usmc02xx]

just in case it was missed. was taught this a long time ago and still use it for indicators. I like mirage for real time, but i do everything i can t eliminate as much as possible from my view. also, experiance is the best teacher when it comes to wind. make it a point to shoot on windy days as much as possible. hell, a really good wind will mvoe your body position around also, learn how to account for that and feel the pauses. just my 2 cents. ymmv

Speed

(mph) Term Effects of Wind ____

0-1 Calm No wind; smoke rises straight up

1-3 Light Air Smoke moves sideways a little

4-7 Light Breeze Wind felt on face; leaves rustle; wind vanes move

8-12 Gentle Breeze Leaves & twigs in constant motion; wind moves small flags

13-18 Moderate Breeze Wind raises dust and loose paper; small branches move

19-24 Fresh Breeze Small trees begin to sway; very small waves on lakes

25-31 Strong Breeze Large branches in motion; telephone wires whistling


faster than that has indicators, but im betting you wont pull the trigger anyway

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

What's important is the average wind from target to shooter. Some of the most experienced shooters instruct to appraise mid range wind to understand the average wind from shooter to target.

This is the way I was taught long ago. However I also learned the major river of wind between you and target can be close or far depending many things,...


I've found experience to be the best teacher, as most anyone can be in the black on a nice, warm, dry, no wind day, with spotter shots.
Cold, wet, and 15+mph days are not fun, but are the best teachers.
Always chasing your last hit,.... will teach you nothing,...

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Here is a great chart to use for Wind Mirage that I use:
<a href="http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/NeilGift/media/Wind-Miragechart_zpsf337b0d7.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b636/NeilGift/Wind-Miragechart_zpsf337b0d7.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo Wind-Miragechart_zpsf337b0d7.jpg"/></a>

How I determine wind at different distances of bullet travel on its way to the target is to adjust my parallax settings. For example, if I am shooting at an 800 meter target, I will adjust my parallax for 400 meters and look, then 600 meters and look again, then finally parallax at 800 meters. If time does not permit, then I will set the parallax at the middle distance, in this case 400 meters, and read the mirage that way. This, along with dust impacts from other shooters and the measured wind at my face, are the best tools I have to gauge the wind.

Again, it all comes down to practice. Just keep shooting and learning and you will improve. The best shooters are guys who shoot thousands of rounds a year.

 

[usmc02xx]

Here is a great chart to use for Wind Mirage that I use:
<a href="http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/NeilGift/media/Wind-Miragechart_zpsf337b0d7.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b636/NeilGift/Wind-Miragechart_zpsf337b0d7.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo Wind-Miragechart_zpsf337b0d7.jpg"/></a>

How I determine wind at different distances of bullet travel on its way to the target is to adjust my parallax settings. For example, if I am shooting at an 800 meter target, I will adjust my parallax for 400 meters and look, then 600 meters and look again, then finally parallax at 800 meters. If time does not permit, then I will set the parallax at the middle distance, in this case 400 meters, and read the mirage that way. This, along with dust impacts from other shooters and the measured wind at my face, are the best tools I have to gauge the wind.

Again, it all comes down to practice. Just keep shooting and learning and you will improve. The best shooters are guys who shoot thousands of rounds a year.

niiiice, im stealing that for my dope book. thanks.

 

[LRShooter101]

A lot of options when it comes to reading the wind, all covered pretty well above.

Whatever you choose to do, will come down to a number of factors, also covered above.

More food for thought,
Beginner / Limited Skills / Limited Resources - use your indicator(s) to get a speed and direction at whatever single point you can, hopefully the point where the wind is the most active, and go with a calculation and correction for that single point. Key here, is what your resources and indicators will allow you to do. If you don't have down range flags, don't have the capability or equipment to read the downrange conditions like mirage, then just make the call based on what you can determine at your firing point. As they say something is better than nothing, just make sure you understand the limitations, and work to further understand as much of what is going on as possible. Work on observing your impacts on target and learning what corrections you really need based on that actual point of impact.

Intermediate / Some Skills / Some Resources - work on using as many indicators as you can, to get speed and direction at whatever points you think will have the most impact on the shot. Try to use your indicators (flags, mirage, environment observations, etc) to reinforce each other, and learn how to become effective with all of them. Try to learn how terrain interacts and impacts the wind behavior. Try to learn how wind behaves for any given situation, changes, patterns, etc. If your shots don't go where you think they should, make sure you are learning where you made a mistake or what you missed. Also work on making immediate follow up shots with proper corrections based on the actual observed point of impact.

Advanced / Full Skills / Full Resources - take whatever actions you can to get good indicators and data at all points along the flight path. Plug as much data as you can into your calculations, to include data from multiple points along the flight path. Learn how to control / optimize your firing schedule to work with the wind conditions.

Also note, not all wind reading skill sets are created equal. If you are a LE Sniper, Mil Sniper, Hunter, or Competitive Shooter, you are going to need to build a skill set that will work best for your given application. I have seen plenty of shooters coming from one application to another, who end up very frustrated because they are missing key skills for that crossover application.

Thanks to all who have contributed, especially Sinister and Sterling for sharing their invaluable knowledge and experience.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Well, as is the case when dealing with various interpretations of a situation, a great many thoughts can arise. Sinister has got it right; he's well versed in LR shooting. I am almost sure that there's a lurker out there who could blow the doors off of everyone now chiming in. The New Yorker will probably have a book written about him someday!

Regardless, to say that I'm dead wrong is a silly comment. If you want an entire treatise on wind-shooting, and to lay down all the facts such that you've got a "sure answer", I'd suggest you go see a recruiter and sign your name on the dotted line. Shoot for 20+ years as a professional, then retire. From that perspective, you'd probably consider that all situations are different, that all ranges will give you different feedback, and that date/time/moon phase, and variation in the acceleration of gravity seem to have more or less a play, depending on your wife's menstrual cycle.

This forum is only a starting place to learn about wind and mirage.

So, you want to dive into this a bit? Here goes:

First, go get a physics book and learn about force vectors. Apply that knowledge to geometry and sin, cosine and tangents. From this knowledge, you will realize that given a low force vector, close to the shooter, it can have a significant effect upon the departure angle and total displacement at target.

Next, you will realize that given that SAME force vector, but at a point closer to the target, the angular line of departure is the SAME as at the firing position, but because the distance to target is now SHORTER, the total displacement at target is less.

Now, go study mirage. I don't think there's a college-level course in it, but I could be wrong. The best place to do it is on a rifle range. In learning about mirage, you will find that the IMAGE of the target is moved. Sounds overly simple, but let's state it. The mirage is moved by the WIND and rising vapor...and ectoplasm. This is NOT the same effect as the force vector earlier discussed. Thus, wind AT target will move the perceived location of the target. This is a significant effect, and it needs to be constantly considered.

In addition, we have the COMBINED effect of both wind and mirage. Here, we can use MIRAGE to determine what the wind has done. Think of mirage as your "cheap bastard" wind flag. You can likely see mirage along several distances in a range from muzzle to target. Use it as a tool, and look for major CHANGES during your shooting session.

Finally, I too think this forum is awesome for comparing notes. It's great to hear what other folks have found as beneficial, but also for challenging my own perspectives. I am not claiming to be as good as "The New Yorker", and I'll bet that he and a couple other folks are giggling like school girls over this thread!

 

[M40_A1]

Up-wind flags tell you what air will be doing in your bullet path's future, while mirage is telling you what it's doing at the ground, not ten to fifteen feet up where the bullet is. Just another way of looking at it. Everything is only an "indicator" or clue that you have to piece together with SWAG to come up with a possible solution.