Reasons people compete, and what grows the sport.

[4O6shootist]

I live in rural Montana, I can shoot game out my back window, however local club matches are 1.5 - 7 hr commute, and 2 day events are 6-14hr commutes. Takes a lot of dedication to hit up 2 day matches. But I do love the matches, i shot over a dozen in 2021 and much less in 2022 with work life. I will continue to shoot matches as long as my body let's me. It's the fun, friends, skills and comradery that makes it worth while. I do love the competition of it, eventually those competitive skills will fade, and all that will remain my spirit and will to have fun, I'll still be there. We do have RTC, WPR and a few random NRL matches here, and local nrl22 so lots of options.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Excuses. If you want to be weak and not make changes, understand you are at fault. If you want to change, make the move. Are you willing to sit by or make the change? I empower you to make the change, but blaming others is easier. You will choose the easy path.

Do not EVER Accuse me of NOT WANTING CHANGES Private. As a Match director who was going broke trying to hold matches that were simply not being attended, because membership was worse than flagging, I begged the organization and influential leaders to change the standard course of fire. I instituted side matches all at my own expense and work. Offered to try the changes at my matches, actually made the special targets. Outlined exactly how the changes would work. I did a lot of work, all falling on deaf ears. Others also did their best to bring changes that would benefit the existing members and attract new members. The result, a full third of the clubs that were left in the organization quit because we were told to shut up and appreciate the esteemed leadership

Call me lazy one more time or blame me one more time (for not making changes) and I will have you demoted to the shit burning detail. You obviously have no clue about the power of the E-4 Mafia.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Maybe there was a reason people were not attending your matches.

The good MDs amazingly never have trouble filling up with people driving 4-5+ hours to shoot a 1 day.

The shitty ones ...the market makes that decision for them.

Just something to think about...Private.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Maybe there was a reason people were not attending your matches.

The good MDs amazingly never have trouble filling up with people driving 4-5+ hours to shoot a 1 day.

The shitty ones ...the market makes that decision for them.

Just something to think about...Private.

Lots of reasons, did not want to call (organizations) name, but it was not PRS or NRL. Handgun silhouette. A sport even Jerry Miculek stated publicly was hard. When I attend a PRS match I always remind my old friend, how many folks were there.

Changes I wanted to make would put the beginners in a separate tier with an easier course of fire, putting the experience hands spotting and coaching. When they were finished the experienced hands would shoot a harder course of fire than present, giving them more of a challenge. No one would listen. Well about three years ago, a good friend along with quite a few others came up with a new style and shooting and a new type of stock to shoot with. the organization immediately banned the stock alienating a large group of shooters and shooting clubs. The high handed methods used to handle this situation, did nothing for participation. The organization begs for members, blames all kinds of reasons but never changes a thing.

Getting back to your first sentence

Jackson Parish is a bit remote, but larger cities are not that far

There was no easy place to stay

Membership was waning at all the matches. Jackson Mississippi's club refused its members to hold any more matches because only two club members actually shot silhouette

A big problem occurred at the first match. We had several local people show up, some tried shooting some just to watch. As I taught at a local high school at the time, many of the teachers were shooters and I oft grew tired of hearing their prowness at hitting targets a long ways off (Off hand with handguns of course). At the first match, the few locals who shot, despite our help, struggled to hit ten targets. We who were current members (about twenty of us or so) had not issues shooting 40x40's. I am afraid, the local fellows spread the word, that they did not have a prayer of shooting well against us, and at that point, everyone started staying away. And the braggarts would soon be found out.

Still, I kept on trying to get something going that would save the organization. it still struggles on, I occasionally shoot an outlaw match, (the closest orgninzed match is a full seven hours away.). Age and too many broken bones no longer allow me to shoot at anywhere near my former skill level so, I am basically not going to make it three day trip to shoot a one day match and struggle to achieve any decent level of performance.

 

[obx22]

Yet another great thread, and there is some wisdom and experience leaking through!
At times I have worried over growing the sport, and keeping the club alive, especially through Covid and the economy, as we are a bit out of the way. I’ve no marketing experience, but I wonder the return on investment of radio spots, posters, even business type cards (card size mini-poster). Facebook and word of mouth, SH and RFC are ways I’ve alway discovered matches to attend, and finding travel/shooting friends has been even more important as we would load up an carpool to single day events (silhouette and rimfire sporter).
At one point I considered purchasing a small trailer, fill it with targets/props/etc and make it a traveling road-show, arranging to host matches at ranges/clubs that don’t host any rimfire events. Problem there is finances.
But. Some of what I’m seeing here is “if you build it, they will come”, and looking over the last 2 years of our little club, it must be true as most folks travel over 2 hours to join us each month. My biggest current concern is finding a larger venue, in an area of more support facilities like motels and restaurants, ie. more people, and being more centrally located to the core radius of our attendees.

 

[dopeshooter]

Some of you didn't get enough, or any, ammo or primers on your wish list for Christmas and are angry about it. Happy New Year! lol

Both arguments on where to find matches are right and wrong. You can find them if you search hard enough. I know because I am brand new to all this as of about a month ago and I manually entered the one's I'm interested in on my g-calendar throughout the year. Conversely, it shouldn't be so difficult to find the info but hey, that's the Internet and what you get when volunteer work effort is involved. 20% of the people do 80% of the work applies to paid jobs. It's more like 1% do 99% of the work in volunteered work efforts. Anyone with API dev experience could easily pull together a unified listing and map of events across numerous organizations, but I ain't that person, yet. I'll look into doing this on my personal website after my domain is transferred from an anti-firearm hosting provider.

I haven't shot a match yet, so I don't know what needs to be improved, so I'm going to stay in my lane on that, for now. What I can say as a complete and utter n00b is the cost and time are the biggest detractors to the sport from talking to people before I decided to go down this path. I'd also say the lack of firearm education and FUD associated with firearms in the US is playing a factor, but that's a different discussion. Fortunately, I make a decent enough living to afford starting this sport and my company has unlimited PTO so I can plan out in advance taking Friday's off for travel and pre-event activities. Most people I know are not this lucky. I'd guess most are not going to go buy a $4k plus MPA, Proof, GAP or MCT rifle chambered in a competitive round, plus a $1k plus quality optic, ballistics tools, bags, tripod (still don't have one) and calibers requiring them to also start reloading, which they also know nothing about. Personally, I went with a 6GT driven mainly by factory match ammo availability and I don't want to reload right away. I can switch to 6BR or Dasher next year if the competitor d-bag level isn't overwhelming in this sport and I find it fun enough to stay in it. Many potential shooters can't afford that or don't want to reload and if they get laughed at or disregarded because they brought a .308 or 6.5C that doesn't compete, they won't stick around. This is based on comments I've seen in numerous threads on this site and others.

I'm sure there are posts and data out there, but it would be interesting to know how much shooters are spending annually to shoot competitively, regardless of the organization. Being conservative and using easy numbers, take 10 one-day matches shot per year at $100 per match fee. Consider 100 rounds per match for zeroing, practice and stages at $2 per round ($200). Cool Acres and Arena are both roughly three hours away for me here in GA and it seems to be about the minimum for many people so I'll use 200 miles for this exercise in futility and an average of 20 MPG for truck/suv that fit the demographics for most involved in this sport. At $3 a gallon that is $60 round trip for fuel each trip, $600 for the year, best case. At this point this shooter is at $3,600 for those 10 matches. This does not account for any equipment, local gun club memberships, ammo for practice, barrel changes, food, and I'm sure I'm missing other things here. The rule of savings from many financial groups and experts call for saving 10% of your annual income for entertainment and hobbies. Given the average income in the US is ~$52k a year, that equates to $5,200 a year for hobbies and entertainment. These 10 matches have chewed up 69% of the hobby budget for the average US worker and still have to take the family on vacation and waste money at the movie theater a few times a year. Think about how much this cost goes up when you factor in two day matches and/or travel to a range 6-12 hours away. For comparison to another sport, I was an avid mountain biker before I got into this. A quality carbon fiber bike with good, not great, components runs anywhere between $5k-$8k. You spend a couple of hundred bucks A YEAR on maintenance and consumables, unless you suck and wad your bike up continuously. I predict shooting is going to eclipse what I spent on biking, including buying a bike, over a period of three years within 18 months.

I'm not saying this is fair or something most people can overcome, but it is why I believe the cost is arguably the sport's biggest blocker in terms of it growing and putting people in a position to be competitive. Some parts of the country are also at a disadvantage when it comes to event availability. For example, I was very surprised there are no events in Montana for PRS given the number of ELR facilities out there. There are large parts of the country that have nothing within 12-15 hours of them. However, there are local events people can shoot at if they don't care about the big national organizations. The closest 600 yard range to me has a monthly precision rifle shoot that is open to the public for $30. You aren't winning prizes, so it is all about the fun and experience which is fine to me. I can see how I might get bored if the events are cookie cutter, so I am concerned about that. Anyway, just a FNG perspective and observation on the topic. Git to gittin.

 

[griffdasher814]

I compete because I truly enjoy the sport of long range shooting. It is also a way for me to socialize, make friends and spend time with like minded people in my community.

I previously shot USPSA which was expensive to get into (just like PRS) but the sponsors of USPSA matches and the organization itself didn’t give back to the shooters hardly at all. I switched to PRS and NRL22 because the amount of time and money spent shooting and competing doesn’t go unnoticed (and I like shooting rifles). Brands and sponsors give back thousands of dollars in prize money and gear every year for matches prize tables and giveaways. This allows newer shooters to get their hands on gear that they may or may not be able to afford which gives them incentive to continue shooting matches and getting better.

This is just one of the many reasons I believe the precision shooting sports are growing so fast!

 

[pineoak]

I used to compete in paintball at the NPPL/pro level and race R/C cars. But the focus was on the hardcore players and racers... not growing the sport.

So both sports catered to the immediate $$, which was the most competitive groups. But there was no pipeline for new players and racers and just people that wanted to do it for recreation.

Both sports are tiny niche sports compared to where they were before. PRS style shooting is on the rise still, but the same will happen over time if we don't focus on the new shooters.

Women, kids shoot for free. We subsidize them. Sucks, but it's needed. Helps make it more family friendly as well.

Maybe some "classes" that are affordable that allow people to come and learn some basic "tricks" and maybe do a mini-comp to get used to being on the clock, but easier (giant fat targets) to shoot and feel accomplishment.

Would love to see a non-competitive "demo" or "show" division which costs EXACTLY THE SAME price, but maybe 1/2 the targets, easier shots, no prizes, lower cost. Basically an entry level comp. Maybe 4 stages, easy targets, more emphasis on "fun".

Need to pull the kids into the comps, not going to do it with long all day comps.

 

[Lightning8]

"Would love to see a non-competitive "demo" or "show" division which costs EXACTLY THE SAME price, but maybe 1/2 the targets, easier shots, no prizes, lower cost. Basically an entry level comp. Maybe 4 stages, easy targets, more emphasis on "fun"." = NRL22

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

First of all Paintball has always been accessible, in fact there is a massive resurgence and its as popular as ever and cheaper than its ever been. I used to play PSP/NPPL and my cousin a Pro in Xball. If you want to play you go play.

If you want to shoot, go shoot. No one should be subsidizing anyone hobbies. Like PB and other niche sports, its not a cheap hobby for the poors. dont like it? Go birdwatching or learn to bowl.

 

[pineoak]

But new shooters like shooting their 300PRC, not .22LR

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

"Would love to see a non-competitive "demo" or "show" division which costs EXACTLY THE SAME price, but maybe 1/2 the targets, easier shots, no prizes, lower cost. Basically an entry level comp. Maybe 4 stages, easy targets, more emphasis on "fun"." = NRL22

They already have beginner matches, Its people who dont actually shoot and compete who do most of the bitching about matches and making excuses.

If you want to shoot, you will go shoot. If not, no reason to bitch.

 

[pineoak]

First of all Paintball has always been accessible, in fact there is a massive resurgence and its as popular as ever and cheaper than its ever been. I used to play PSP/NPPL and my cousin a Pro in Xball. If you want to play you go play.

If you want to shoot, go shoot. No one should be subsidizing anyone hobbies. Like PB and other niche sports, its not a cheap hobby for the poors. dont like it? Go birdwatching or learn to bowl.

Bowling is not cheap.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

But new shooters like shooting their 300PRC, not .22LR

Then they can shoot ELR, or Fclass, or Benchrest or any other discipline they like.

You cant have it all your way.

 

[pineoak]

They already have beginner matches, Its people who dont actually shoot and compete who do most of the bitching about matches and making excuses.

If you want to shoot, you will go shoot. If not, no reason to bitch.

You're thinking like a competitor. The point is to get people who are gun shy and hesitant to join in the fun.

And yeah, most people are Poors for activities new to them. That opens up quickly once they spend some time doing it.

 

[pineoak]

Then they can shoot ELR, or Fclass, or Benchrest or any other discipline they like.

You cant have it all your way.

Agreed. That was sarcasm, but I understand I didn't convey it effectively.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

You're thinking like a competitor. The point is to get people who are gun shy and hesitant to join in the fun.

And yeah, most people are Poors for activities new to them. That opens up quickly once they spend some time doing it.

Yea I am sure people who are scared and shy are going to drop $$$ on something they never done before. There is NRL22/PRS22 for a reason. There are other shooting sports and matches to dabble in.

You are bitching about a non issue. PRS is a competition, everyone who shoots it is a competitor. What are you talking about?

Matches are filling up faster than ever, so they must be doing something right.

If you want to grow your area get out and do it yourself. Stop expecting everyone else to do what you are to lazy/cant do.

 

[frost1235]

Some of you didn't get enough, or any, ammo or primers on your wish list for Christmas and are angry about it. Happy New Year! lol

Both arguments on where to find matches are right and wrong. You can find them if you search hard enough. I know because I am brand new to all this as of about a month ago and I manually entered the one's I'm interested in on my g-calendar throughout the year. Conversely, it shouldn't be so difficult to find the info but hey, that's the Internet and what you get when volunteer work effort is involved. 20% of the people do 80% of the work applies to paid jobs. It's more like 1% do 99% of the work in volunteered work efforts. Anyone with API dev experience could easily pull together a unified listing and map of events across numerous organizations, but I ain't that person, yet. I'll look into doing this on my personal website after my domain is transferred from an anti-firearm hosting provider.

I haven't shot a match yet, so I don't know what needs to be improved, so I'm going to stay in my lane on that, for now. What I can say as a complete and utter n00b is the cost and time are the biggest detractors to the sport from talking to people before I decided to go down this path. I'd also say the lack of firearm education and FUD associated with firearms in the US is playing a factor, but that's a different discussion. Fortunately, I make a decent enough living to afford starting this sport and my company has unlimited PTO so I can plan out in advance taking Friday's off for travel and pre-event activities. Most people I know are not this lucky. I'd guess most are not going to go buy a $4k plus MPA, Proof, GAP or MCT rifle chambered in a competitive round, plus a $1k plus quality optic, ballistics tools, bags, tripod (still don't have one) and calibers requiring them to also start reloading, which they also know nothing about. Personally, I went with a 6GT driven mainly by factory match ammo availability and I don't want to reload right away. I can switch to 6BR or Dasher next year if the competitor d-bag level isn't overwhelming in this sport and I find it fun enough to stay in it. Many potential shooters can't afford that or don't want to reload and if they get laughed at or disregarded because they brought a .308 or 6.5C that doesn't compete, they won't stick around. This is based on comments I've seen in numerous threads on this site and others.

I'm sure there are posts and data out there, but it would be interesting to know how much shooters are spending annually to shoot competitively, regardless of the organization. Being conservative and using easy numbers, take 10 one-day matches shot per year at $100 per match fee. Consider 100 rounds per match for zeroing, practice and stages at $2 per round ($200). Cool Acres and Arena are both roughly three hours away for me here in GA and it seems to be about the minimum for many people so I'll use 200 miles for this exercise in futility and an average of 20 MPG for truck/suv that fit the demographics for most involved in this sport. At $3 a gallon that is $60 round trip for fuel each trip, $600 for the year, best case. At this point this shooter is at $3,600 for those 10 matches. This does not account for any equipment, local gun club memberships, ammo for practice, barrel changes, food, and I'm sure I'm missing other things here. The rule of savings from many financial groups and experts call for saving 10% of your annual income for entertainment and hobbies. Given the average income in the US is ~$52k a year, that equates to $5,200 a year for hobbies and entertainment. These 10 matches have chewed up 69% of the hobby budget for the average US worker and still have to take the family on vacation and waste money at the movie theater a few times a year. Think about how much this cost goes up when you factor in two day matches and/or travel to a range 6-12 hours away. For comparison to another sport, I was an avid mountain biker before I got into this. A quality carbon fiber bike with good, not great, components runs anywhere between $5k-$8k. You spend a couple of hundred bucks A YEAR on maintenance and consumables, unless you suck and wad your bike up continuously. I predict shooting is going to eclipse what I spent on biking, including buying a bike, over a period of three years within 18 months.

I'm not saying this is fair or something most people can overcome, but it is why I believe the cost is arguably the sport's biggest blocker in terms of it growing and putting people in a position to be competitive. Some parts of the country are also at a disadvantage when it comes to event availability. For example, I was very surprised there are no events in Montana for PRS given the number of ELR facilities out there. There are large parts of the country that have nothing within 12-15 hours of them. However, there are local events people can shoot at if they don't care about the big national organizations. The closest 600 yard range to me has a monthly precision rifle shoot that is open to the public for $30. You aren't winning prizes, so it is all about the fun and experience which is fine to me. I can see how I might get bored if the events are cookie cutter, so I am concerned about that. Anyway, just a FNG perspective and observation on the topic. Git to gittin.

This says it all.

You have to work to make money. Working requires you to give up a certain amount of time per day as determined by your employment contracts. In PRS, you will constantly spend money. Either you spend time to make up for your lack of money or you spend money to save time.

For me to get competitive, I pretty much had to job hop and get into a position where I don't rely on overtime, I have a decent amount to time off, and enough work-life balance to support this hobby. But as soon as a life issue happens, like in my case, I'm out of the sport. Luckily for me, it was only two years, but as I am trying to get back into competing in the PRS, I'm reminded by how incredibly expensive it is.

I'm in New England and it went from around 12 regional matches a season, to 9. There aren't any pro matches up here anymore from what I heard. If I want to compete in more matches, my happy-ass will have to drive through New York to get to PA to maybe get a handful more matches in. (Spending time and money.)

I am limited by winter time that throws off accessibility to the ranges that support PRS-styled shooting unless I have shit like crampons / a car that can drive in snow and ice, and the added time to drive safely to ranges that are already 2 hours away from me. For me to true my data or get in live-fire practice, the initial time cost is going to be 4 hours outside of the time I practice.

Reloading that ammo, so I don't have to zero/chrono/true my ammo in a panic before each match even before I take into consideration different atmospheric conditions takes time and money as well. I've cut out cleaning brass because the time it takes to clean it is irrelevant outside of shiny brass. (You know what shines brighter? A trophy.) I am at the point where to get at least 50 rounds of live fire practice in a week, I am heavily considering the costs vs time savings on an autodrive for case prep, amp-press for annealing, and multiple autotricklers/supertricklers for dispensing. Everything here isn't so I get SD's under 5 or ES's under 10, it's so I ALWAYS have ammo at the ready that is ALWAYS going to shoot the zero I have on my scope AND be reliable on my kestrel out to my trued distance.


I am not even considering the cost of travel/lodging, match fees, gas, etc.

I'm going to beat that dead horse until it's hamburger meat, but if you want this sport to grow, you'll need to get kids and college students in, not just people with that hit their prime in career/salary. It's already time consuming because ranges are already limited by space for CoF.
Why not try to develop entry level equipment/components that allows for more people to become competitors rather than spectators engaging from time to time.

ARC is getting good momentum with an action that is $900, but in the long run the barrel and passable scopes are the cheapest part of the build and sport overall. I don't know what needs to change/happen, but nevermind the economy, but as it stands, PRS is just F-Class with camo.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I forgot this thread was real. But do you really believe in the internet ranks.. Do you really believe your a command spec 4? You are hilarious.

You obviously have no idea about the power of the E-4 Mafia. We make things happen because we are the ones who actually have to do the work and, screw us and we will really fuck up the works and guess who's gonna get the blame. Poor LT.

In Vietnam, the Captains and above flew around in their helicopters telling people what to do (IN REAL FIREFIGHTS where real men were getting killed!) while the privates, corporals and specialists were the ones typically sticking our necks out. (along with the sargeants who actually were with us) The LT's were just trying to survive. Nothing to be ashamed of when a fellow got an assignment in the rear.

Oh, want to get in really serious trouble....fuck with a Sargeant Major....

 

[morganlamprecht]

Some of you didn't get enough, or any, ammo or primers on your wish list for Christmas and are angry about it. Happy New Year! lol

Both arguments on where to find matches are right and wrong. You can find them if you search hard enough. I know because I am brand new to all this as of about a month ago and I manually entered the one's I'm interested in on my g-calendar throughout the year. Conversely, it shouldn't be so difficult to find the info but hey, that's the Internet and what you get when volunteer work effort is involved. 20% of the people do 80% of the work applies to paid jobs. It's more like 1% do 99% of the work in volunteered work efforts. Anyone with API dev experience could easily pull together a unified listing and map of events across numerous organizations, but I ain't that person, yet. I'll look into doing this on my personal website after my domain is transferred from an anti-firearm hosting provider.

I haven't shot a match yet, so I don't know what needs to be improved, so I'm going to stay in my lane on that, for now. What I can say as a complete and utter n00b is the cost and time are the biggest detractors to the sport from talking to people before I decided to go down this path. I'd also say the lack of firearm education and FUD associated with firearms in the US is playing a factor, but that's a different discussion. Fortunately, I make a decent enough living to afford starting this sport and my company has unlimited PTO so I can plan out in advance taking Friday's off for travel and pre-event activities. Most people I know are not this lucky. I'd guess most are not going to go buy a $4k plus MPA, Proof, GAP or MCT rifle chambered in a competitive round, plus a $1k plus quality optic, ballistics tools, bags, tripod (still don't have one) and calibers requiring them to also start reloading, which they also know nothing about. Personally, I went with a 6GT driven mainly by factory match ammo availability and I don't want to reload right away. I can switch to 6BR or Dasher next year if the competitor d-bag level isn't overwhelming in this sport and I find it fun enough to stay in it. Many potential shooters can't afford that or don't want to reload and if they get laughed at or disregarded because they brought a .308 or 6.5C that doesn't compete, they won't stick around. This is based on comments I've seen in numerous threads on this site and others.

I'm sure there are posts and data out there, but it would be interesting to know how much shooters are spending annually to shoot competitively, regardless of the organization. Being conservative and using easy numbers, take 10 one-day matches shot per year at $100 per match fee. Consider 100 rounds per match for zeroing, practice and stages at $2 per round ($200). Cool Acres and Arena are both roughly three hours away for me here in GA and it seems to be about the minimum for many people so I'll use 200 miles for this exercise in futility and an average of 20 MPG for truck/suv that fit the demographics for most involved in this sport. At $3 a gallon that is $60 round trip for fuel each trip, $600 for the year, best case. At this point this shooter is at $3,600 for those 10 matches. This does not account for any equipment, local gun club memberships, ammo for practice, barrel changes, food, and I'm sure I'm missing other things here. The rule of savings from many financial groups and experts call for saving 10% of your annual income for entertainment and hobbies. Given the average income in the US is ~$52k a year, that equates to $5,200 a year for hobbies and entertainment. These 10 matches have chewed up 69% of the hobby budget for the average US worker and still have to take the family on vacation and waste money at the movie theater a few times a year. Think about how much this cost goes up when you factor in two day matches and/or travel to a range 6-12 hours away. For comparison to another sport, I was an avid mountain biker before I got into this. A quality carbon fiber bike with good, not great, components runs anywhere between $5k-$8k. You spend a couple of hundred bucks A YEAR on maintenance and consumables, unless you suck and wad your bike up continuously. I predict shooting is going to eclipse what I spent on biking, including buying a bike, over a period of three years within 18 months.

I'm not saying this is fair or something most people can overcome, but it is why I believe the cost is arguably the sport's biggest blocker in terms of it growing and putting people in a position to be competitive. Some parts of the country are also at a disadvantage when it comes to event availability. For example, I was very surprised there are no events in Montana for PRS given the number of ELR facilities out there. There are large parts of the country that have nothing within 12-15 hours of them. However, there are local events people can shoot at if they don't care about the big national organizations. The closest 600 yard range to me has a monthly precision rifle shoot that is open to the public for $30. You aren't winning prizes, so it is all about the fun and experience which is fine to me. I can see how I might get bored if the events are cookie cutter, so I am concerned about that. Anyway, just a FNG perspective and observation on the topic. Git to gittin.

2017 is the only year i half ass tracked it, best i could...reloading components, travel/lodging expense, food, match fees, equipment/rifles/gear related to match shooting, etc

i shot 3 PRS 2 days, 4 NALRSA money matches (not around anymore), and ~10 local 1 days (within 1 hr), and a couple not local 1 days (4-6 hrs away)

i spent ~$22k and brought home ~$12k (not including selling of any prizes, just take home money...selling of various prizes probably would bump this up to the $15k area)...this is the year the PRS was handing out the big checks for podium finishes and the NALRSA checks were anywhere from $1k to $7k for top 5 i think so most of that potential earnings is gone today

and this amount included very little practice...my "practice" consisted of maybe 50-100 rounds a month to confirm dope/zeros on new loads/component lots/barrels whenever it was needed...if i was shooting 100s of rounds a month practicing, it would have stacked on more in components and barrels

iirc Matty B took home somewhere around $60-75k that year from shooting...and he told me if he added it all up over the years, he was still likely in the hole...it gets expensive quick

 

[kthomas]

2017 is the only year i half ass tracked it, best i could...reloading components, travel/lodging expense, food, match fees, equipment/rifles/gear related to match shooting, etc

i shot 3 PRS 2 days, 4 NALRSA money matches (not around anymore), and ~10 local 1 days (within 1 hr), and a couple not local 1 days (4-6 hrs away)

i spent ~$22k and brought home ~$12k (not including selling of any prizes, just take home money...selling of various prizes probably would bump this up to the $15k area)...this is the year the PRS was handing out the big checks for podium finishes and the NALRSA checks were anywhere from $1k to $7k for top 5 i think so most of that potential earnings is gone today

and this amount included very little practice...my "practice" consisted of maybe 50-100 rounds a month to confirm dope/zeros on new loads/component lots/barrels whenever it was needed...if i was shooting 100s of rounds a month practicing, it would have stacked on more in components and barrels

iirc Matty B took home somewhere around $60-75k that year from shooting...and he told me if he added it all up over the years, he was still likely in the hole...it gets expensive quick

It's a very expensive hobby.

There seems to be a lot of turnover in this hobby/sport. A lot of the prevalent names in PRS from 2017-18 aren't prevalent today. There's a lot of new names at the top of the PRS leaderboard, and top100. A lot of names conspicuously absent from todays PRS matches.

It's great that PRS is evolving and new people are getting involved and doing well, but I can't help but wonder where a lot of the old guard went? Are people getting burnt out spending so much money and time on a hobby? The turnover seems very high in this hobby, seemingly much higher than others. If this truly is the case, I wonder how PRS will continue to sustain in the future. It attracts a lot of new people which is great, but retention rates are seemingly low.

Speaking of, what is Matty B doing these days? Great guy and great shooter. Doesn't look like he's shooting PRS anymore (like much of his cohort).

 

[dopeshooter]

2017 is the only year i half ass tracked it, best i could...reloading components, travel/lodging expense, food, match fees, equipment/rifles/gear related to match shooting, etc

i shot 3 PRS 2 days, 4 NALRSA money matches (not around anymore), and ~10 local 1 days (within 1 hr), and a couple not local 1 days (4-6 hrs away)

i spent ~$22k and brought home ~$12k (not including selling of any prizes, just take home money...selling of various prizes probably would bump this up to the $15k area)...this is the year the PRS was handing out the big checks for podium finishes and the NALRSA checks were anywhere from $1k to $7k for top 5 i think so most of that potential earnings is gone today

and this amount included very little practice...my "practice" consisted of maybe 50-100 rounds a month to confirm dope/zeros on new loads/component lots/barrels whenever it was needed...if i was shooting 100s of rounds a month practicing, it would have stacked on more in components and barrels

iirc Matty B took home somewhere around $60-75k that year from shooting...and he told me if he added it all up over the years, he was still likely in the hole...it gets expensive quick

LOL, ok so it's much worse than my meager estimates! My wife is already on to this being a very expensive venture. I've had to cut down the number of long distance and two matches I was going to attend. I'll likely do quite a few one day PRS matches at Cool Acres since it's relatively close and less ammo spent, plus I don't have to stay in a hotel.

It seems the shooting sports industry is their own worst enemy by essentially make it price prohibitive due to ammo, reloading, accessories and rifle costs. However, I know some of that is cost of materials, but seems a lot of it is supply and demand coupled with maximized profit margins while it can be had. I get it, cause I would do the same if I was the owner. Just fearful the bottom is going to fall out because it's apparent a lot of people have hit the fuck it button and left, and here we are having this conversation. Just confirms and backs up my belief that cost is the main blocker to growing the sport. The vast majority ain't paying the price it cost to be competitive. Just doing it to having fun is a different use case.

 

[Rob01]

Got to do what you can do. My first 10 years shooting matches was my push time and I spent more money and worked OT to help offset cost. I flew a lot around the country to shoot and spent money but it was fun. It was my hobby. My last 10 years of shooting matches has been toned down and less air travel especially the last 5 after retiring. But I still do what I can and have fun shooting matches because I have loved the sport for so long. If people shoot this sport to make money then they are very delusional and won't be around long. LOL

 

[kthomas]

LOL, ok so it's much worse than my meager estimates! My wife is already on to this being a very expensive venture. I've had to cut down the number of long distance and two matches I was going to attend. I'll likely do quite a few one day PRS matches at Cool Acres since it's relatively close and less ammo spent, plus I don't have to stay in a hotel.

It seems the shooting sports industry is their own worst enemy by essentially make it price prohibitive due to ammo, reloading, accessories and rifle costs. However, I know some of that is cost of materials, but seems a lot of it is supply and demand coupled with maximized profit margins while it can be had. I get it, cause I would do the same if I was the owner. Just fearful the bottom is going to fall out because it's apparent a lot of people have hit the fuck it button and left, and here we are having this conversation. Just confirms and backs up my belief that cost is the main blocker to growing the sport. The vast majority ain't paying the price it cost to be competitive. Just doing it to having fun is a different use case.

Unfortunately I don't think there's much that can be done to reduce the cost of the materials that it costs to participate in this sport. Rifles and ammo are always going to cost a decent amount, that's just a fact.

One huge factor that is somewhat controllable is travel. Travel is very expensive, and the costs to travel are rapidly rising. Gas/airfare, hotels/rentals, food, etc. are all expensive and only going up in price. A weekend to shoot a match will easily cost thousands of dollars.

More local events that mitigate the need to travel would grow the sport tremendously. If PRS and adjacent organizations worked at the grass roots level to get more local events, this would be huge. The big barricade is space - shooting centerfire rifles require a lot of space, so finding places locally around the US to host more matches is not going to be an easy task. It will require some work and likely some creativity. I personally don't see relying on people that are willing to spend a considerable amount of cash and time traveling for this hobby as a sustainable future.

At this point, I'm only going to go to matches that are within driving distance to me, and will look to couple them up with other trips that don't involve shooting. I just can't justify the expense and time to travel for matches. And unfortunately the current state of the economy is going to make it harder and harder for people to justify the time and expense on a hobby.

 

[morganlamprecht]

It's a very expensive hobby.

There seems to be a lot of turnover in this hobby/sport. A lot of the prevalent names in PRS from 2017-18 aren't prevalent today. There's a lot of new names at the top of the PRS leaderboard, and top100. A lot of names conspicuously absent from todays PRS matches.

It's great that PRS is evolving and new people are getting involved and doing well, but I can't help but wonder where a lot of the old guard went? Are people getting burnt out spending so much money and time on a hobby? The turnover seems very high in this hobby, seemingly much higher than others. If this truly is the case, I wonder how PRS will continue to sustain in the future. It attracts a lot of new people which is great, but retention rates are seemingly low.

Speaking of, what is Matty B doing these days? Great guy and great shooter. Doesn't look like he's shooting PRS anymore (like much of his cohort).

I think it was mainly job change…his previous work, he was working for a few months and off for a few months..left a lot of time for shooting and travel. Worked out well

I believe ER nurse now with a more normal full time schedule

I think a lot of the turnover is just the ceiling…personally, I got to the level where if I showed up with my stuff squared away and had a decent weekend, I was gunna Top 20…if I had a good weekend with no mental blunders, it was Top 5/chance at winning

Once I got there, there was nothing really more for me potential wise unless I was going to try and spin that into an industry type job or some kind of training venture…neither of which I had any desire for. So it was kind of a matter of ok, I’m as high as I would really go without spending more and more for really no return.

Then a couple buddies talked me into buying a bow around that same time and I took that up as a side hobby…wayyyy cheaper than rifles in comparison and the ceiling is also a lot higher with more return potential…not that I’m anywhere near that good, but the opportunity is there

 

[Raffy]

I didn't do much research on this one, but I will say regarding the practiscore website that it is awful. If that single thing we're improved it would help people sign up for matches who are new and want to try things out.

 

[kthomas]

I didn't do much research on this one, but I will say regarding the practiscore website that it is awful. If that single thing we're improved it would help people sign up for matches who are new and want to try things out.

Practiscore sucks.

 

[BurtG]

my "practice" consisted of maybe 50-100 rounds a month to confirm dope/zeros on

Do you dry fire or just count on the matches to keep you in practice ?

 

[BurtG]

Practiscore sucks.

Yeah pretty much easier to find matches on Facebook

 

[kthomas]

Yeah pretty much easier to find matches on Facebook

Facebook is inarguably not the greatest place to coordinate matches.

I'm surprised that the PRS Association hasn't developed a system where you can register online for matches through their own site. Going to a crappy third party to register for matches seems silly. There's no reason why we should have to go to FB or Practiscore to register for matches.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Do you dry fire or just count on the matches to keep you in practice ?

I’ve never been a fan of dry fire, I’ve also never really had a flinch or firing issue to work out so the trigger press was never really a big concern for me personally. I can put my reticle on target and break it without flinch/jerk all day without much issue.

I found the biggest “level up” for me was handling recoil while in a compromised position, seeing/reading splash or trace, and then applying the appropriate correction…dry fire wouldnt help me much there. Just firing actual rounds.

Yea, I probably would have been slightly faster/smoother thru transitions and stages if I ran mock ones and dry fired…gun handling would have improved/sped up for sure, but I wasn’t having an issue with time as it was so I didn’t worry about it much

I was shooting 1-2 various matches per month so I just relied on that to keep me fresh…I usually tried to line up a club match before a 2 day as a tune up and experimented there if need be.

I did always have a place to test/confirm dope before big matches which is almost a need IMO to be consistent. you could do it without if u really know what you’re doing (which likely requires quite a few rounds down range in the first place to be proficient), and be mostly good to go, but there are always some little random surprises that sneak in there from time to time

 

[Mormegil87]

Facebook is inarguably not the greatest place to coordinate matches.

I'm surprised that the PRS Association hasn't developed a system where you can register online for matches through their own site. Going to a crappy third party to register for matches seems silly. There's no reason why we should have to go to FB or Practiscore to register for matches.

I wouldn't be surprised if addressing this is at the top of Ken's list.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

I used to compete in paintball at the NPPL/pro level and race R/C cars. But the focus was on the hardcore players and racers... not growing the sport.

So both sports catered to the immediate $$, which was the most competitive groups. But there was no pipeline for new players and racers and just people that wanted to do it for recreation.

Both sports are tiny niche sports compared to where they were before. PRS style shooting is on the rise still, but the same will happen over time if we don't focus on the new shooters.

Women, kids shoot for free. We subsidize them. Sucks, but it's needed. Helps make it more family friendly as well.

Maybe some "classes" that are affordable that allow people to come and learn some basic "tricks" and maybe do a mini-comp to get used to being on the clock, but easier (giant fat targets) to shoot and feel accomplishment.

Would love to see a non-competitive "demo" or "show" division which costs EXACTLY THE SAME price, but maybe 1/2 the targets, easier shots, no prizes, lower cost. Basically an entry level comp. Maybe 4 stages, easy targets, more emphasis on "fun".

Need to pull the kids into the comps, not going to do it with long all day comps.

Old school paintballer here too, and you couldn't be more right.

Incidentally, NRL Hunter is doing some of what you suggest already. Kids can shoot free with an accompanying paid adult shooter (one free young gun per paid adult spot), and they offer a "skills" division where newer shooters can shoot the match for no score and can receive coaching on the clock from ROs during stages. They even have loaner equipment owned by the series that is available to shooters free of charge (scoped rifles, tripods, bipods, lrf binos, and kestrels).

 

[superde]

Then a couple buddies talked me into buying a bow around that same time and I took that up as a side hobby…wayyyy cheaper than rifles in comparison and the ceiling is also a lot higher with more return potential…not that I’m anywhere near that good, but the opportunity is there

And then a couple buddies tried to get you back out there last weekend with a rifle, Lol.

MO is pretty good at everything he tries, which is frustrating for us mere mortals.


Once you compete near the top, how long can you grind and still be hungry?

 

[lte82]

And then a couple buddies tried to get you back out there last weekend with a rifle, Lol.

MO is pretty good at everything he tries, which is frustrating for us mere mortals.


Once you compete near the top, how long can you grind and still be hungry?

I always wondered why Mo stopped when he was so good at it. Then I saw more and more phase out after being near the top, and now I too understand why. Once you know you can win or place, and you realize that there is no grand prize or anything life changing at the top, it is hard to continue to spend the money and time doing it every weekend.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Yea, it’d be different if there was a $1-2mil check at the end like a PGA tour event lol but Matty B went like what, 15 matches winning or top 3 in/almost in a row? And nothin life changing really happens other than you know where u stand on the measuring stick lol

 

[Rob01]

Yeah if you are looking for life changing you are in the wrong hobby. LOL

 

[morganlamprecht]

And then a couple buddies tried to get you back out there last weekend with a rifle, Lol.

MO is pretty good at everything he tries, which is frustrating for us mere mortals.


Once you compete near the top, how long can you grind and still be hungry?

U held it down just fine without me lol

 

[lte82]

U held it down just fine without me lol

He can keep his grass height down now that's for sure.

 

[308pirate]

If there were money to be made I’m sure more people would be interested. I was looking at the prs22 finale and there were 188 shooters, $225 entry fee = $42,300.
First place open only paid out $2000?Second place $1500
Third place $1000
After flying or driving to Texas , hotel stays, $225 entry fee, even if you place first I’m going to guess you came close to breaking even. Correct me if I’m wrong here guys because this is all speculation. Shouldn’t the payouts be more for such a big event ? Also, shouldn’t the top 10 get something , at least their entry fee back?
If there is that little money to be made for such a big event to me it’s no wonder why more people don’t get involved.

USPSA has a hell of a lot more participants than PRS will ever and there is zero prize money

It ain't the lack of prize money why people don't show up to a shooting match

Prize money encourages all sorts of unethical behavior. That's pretty much all it does.

 

[Mormegil87]

@308pirate now if only we would get rid of the prize tables. Then, maybe all the dudes who complain about ROs getting to shoot the CoF on Friday in nice weather while the rest of the field shoots in crap weather over the weekend would leave the sport. Things would instantly get better.

 

[kthomas]

@308pirate now if only we would get rid of the prize tables. Then, maybe all the dudes who complain about ROs getting to shoot the CoF on Friday in nice weather while the rest of the field shoots in crap weather over the weekend would leave the sport. Things would instantly get better.

I would totally be okay with prize tables being eliminated. I never stick around for them anyways.

I think there's valid complaints about companies being expected to provide products for a prize table that will ultimately just be sold the next week at a very reduced cost, which in some ways decreases the value of their product. I don't think shooters should expect their hobby to be subsidized by corporate giveaways.

I think many shooters seem to forget that this is a hobby, and a hobby only. There are no "professional" PRS shooters.

 

[Mormegil87]

I would totally be okay with prize tables being eliminated. I never stick around for them anyways.

I think there's valid complaints about companies being expected to provide products for a prize table that will ultimately just be sold the next week at a very reduced cost, which in some ways decreases the value of their product. I don't think shooters should expect their hobby to be subsidized by corporate giveaways.

I think many shooters seem to forget that this is a hobby, and a hobby only. There are no "professional" PRS shooters.

Agreed. Though I suspect, can't confirm, that companies wouldn't put stuff on the table if there wasn't some kind of measurable ROI.

In the interest of transparency, I usually stick around for the table because there is usually something on there I can use or that I have wanted to try. I have sold stuff after the fact, but it's been stuff I wanted to try but ended up not needing or not fitting my expectations. I've also given a lot of stuff away over the years to new shooters.

I just feel that the sport, would be better for it in the long run without the prize table and just following the "swag bag" model. I think a lot of the hangers on would just, fall off and the sport would grow more organically, albeit maybe more slowly.

 

[hondo1312]

@308pirate now if only we would get rid of the prize tables. Then, maybe all the dudes who complain about ROs getting to shoot the CoF on Friday in nice weather while the rest of the field shoots in crap weather over the weekend would leave the sport. Things would instantly get better.

NRL Hunter match last weekend was the opposite. Friday was rough, and Saturday and Sunday were near-optimal in terms of wind. I didn't hear a single RO that shot Friday complain about it, though.

 

[Mormegil87]

NRL Hunter match last weekend was the opposite. Friday was rough, and Saturday and Sunday were near-optimal in terms of wind. I didn't hear a single RO that shot Friday complain about it, though.

That kind of goes to my point. A few of the bigger names were complaining about how it wasn't fair that at a match, the ROs got to shoot in good conditions on Friday and subsequently took a good portion of the top slots. Nevermind that the ROs had to sit in that same shitty weather all day Saturday and Sunday.

 

[hondo1312]

That kind of goes to my point. A few of the bigger names were complaining about how it wasn't fair that at a match, the ROs got to shoot in good conditions on Friday and subsequently took a good portion of the top slots. Nevermind that the ROs had to sit in that same shitty weather all day Saturday and Sunday.

Oh, I agree completely. I'm all for getting rid of prize tables too. Even as an RO last weekend, I shot the skills division because I don't give a shit about prizes. I shoot matches to be outside and hang out with my friends I don't get to see often. I'm not about to tarnish that experience in hopes of walking a prize table full of stuff I have no use for anyway.

 

[308pirate]

There are no "professional" PRS shooters.

They exist in the minds of butthurt low performers who see guys wearing "pro" jerseys beating them

 

[superde]

Agreed. Though I suspect, can't confirm, that companies wouldn't put stuff on the table if there wasn't some kind of measurable ROI.

There is no way to measure this. You may get a few thank you emails from people who picked up your product at a match which you donated. Some in the industry donate to help friends who run matches, and/or just to give back to the group of people who helped build your business. There is a prize table at most club matches these days it seems.

 

[Mormegil87]

You're probably right.

However, I haven't seen a prize table up here at a PRS Regional match, other than the finale and club finale, in at least 4 years. It hasn't effected our clubs attendance one bit.

 

[BlakeZ10]

Thanks for the information!