Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

[Chris K]

I was digging around a bit today and started looking at the "recce" type rifles. Through the course of my search I found a very wide variety of rifles with all sorts of differences. I ended up wondering what the specific attributes made a rifle a "recce" or as Wiki calls it "SEAL Recon Rifle"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEAL_Recon_Rifle

It would seem from the wiki article that NSWC wasn't satisfied with the SPR and its variants, and a 16" carbine with rifle length gas was developed with a heavier barrel to fill that role. I can see the value such a rifle has, and am not asking a SEAL question but more what are the things that makes a recce a recce?

From what I can tell:

-16" barrel at a "heavy under the hand guard" contour
-Rifle length gas system
-Some type of variable optic (the wiki article notes that many optics are "common") but may be up to the end user.

Article also states that the only specifications be the ability to shoot any NATO inventory 5.56 cartridge and have a 16" barrel. Wiki not always being the most reliable source of gun info, I thought I'd toss it out here and see what I may be missing.

Am I missing something about this type of rifle?

Thanks

C_K

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

I was in a "recon" plt. in SE Asia (Recondo, HHC 2/502 Inf 101st Abn Div.

You want light, supper light. You don't want a heavy barrel. The M16A1 worked great, the CAR 15 (short version) worked better.

You don't want any gismos or tacticool stuff. You don't want anything that hangs up on brush.

We were in the field from 30=60 days, YOU WANT LIGHT. You don't have Humvees bringing you bottled water, you carry what you need. We would get re-supplied about once ever 5-7 days, and then you De De's from your resupplied point cause it was going to be over run with bandits.

YOU WANT LIGHT, not tacticool. I don't care what Waki says.

 

[Guest]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

Depending the A/O your talking about, 11.5 to 16 is a good choice. I was issued a XM177e2 but I had the Armor remove the issued hider an install a A-1 bird cage. For scouting or C/C it could not be beat for a 5.56.
Even with shots to ranges of 300-350 yds I never felt under barreled. Night time is where you had to CYA do to flash if you had to shoot. If you task out correctly, you never fired a shot anyway.
Get a short pencil barrel an never look back.

 

[Laseredge]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

16" Barrel + Rifle Length Gas System?

Does that have enough dwell time to be reliable?

Anyone have any experience with that?

All the 16" barrels I have seen either had Carbine or Mid gas systems.

 

[BCP]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

RECCE rifles are just accurized carbines there's no big mystery really.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chris_K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Am I missing something about this type of rifle?
</div></div>

Yeah the original barrel was 17" not 16" and carbine gas not rifle. You can buy them from Lilja for 450 with a bolt in stainless and I thnk 300 for chromoly versin.

 

[Chris K]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

Craig, Gunfighter, I couldn't agree more. Did some time in a Scout Platoon and work with them closely to this day. This wasn't intended to be an "is it a good recon rifle?" question, but rather what designates one rifle a "recce" or "recon rifle". The comment made about it's purpose was more to it being a mid range SDM or accurate carbine role...however, having fired M4's further than the Army says is really reasonable, I'm not a total advocate of a medium contour barrel, as the standard contour does fairly well for its job.

We used to impress upon all the baby 19D that came in to the section that if shots were fired from our rifles it was mission fail. If were shooting anything its a radio call to the mortars to give someone hell, and we never give up our positions.

Jones, no idea about the gas system length, that's partly the reason for my question. I just wanted to know why something is a "recce" and not just a 16" carbine?

C_K

 

[Chris K]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RECCE rifles are just accurized carbines there's no big mystery really.</div></div>

Might be the answer I was looking for.

Thanks!

C_K

 

[Guest]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chris_K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We used to impress upon all the baby 19D that came in to the section that if shots were fired from our rifles it was mission fail. If were shooting anything its a radio call to the mortars to give someone hell, and we never give up our positions. </div></div>
Yep, the best 19D's an 18B's were never detected or heard from, until their info or plan was injected into the mix.

 

[Chris K]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

I actually really enjoyed being a scout, the unit that we were in then switched to heavy, and one section got Bradley's, not really a sneaky vehicle. I picked up an E5 slot in an infantry company shortly after that, and got selected to help stand up a new Sniper section in the BN. Now I get to shoot the long guns, and play with the Scouts, its really the best of the two worlds I think I was quite fortunate.

C_K

 

[Guest]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

Cross training is a very, very, ms-understood, an used, tool.

 

[Chris K]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cross training is a very, very, ms-understood, an used, tool. </div></div>

I could not agree more. In fact, the scout platoon recently took in a re-class soldier from maintenance to scout. I asked him a vehicle related question on our walk to chow the other day and he said something to like: "I haven't been keeping up on my old, useless MOS Sgt, I could look into it though..."

I told him that having a mechanic IN the Scout Platoon that holds both MOS' is not useless, in fact it could be one of the best tools around. The goal in my opinion is to be as much like a multi-tool as possible, maybe not an expert at one very specific thing, but able to do many things really well. That way when times get tough, you have a diverse team to figure out really shitty problems quickly.

C_K

 

[Guest]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chris_K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The goal in my opinion is to be as much like a multi-tool as possible, maybe not an expert at one very specific thing, but able to do many things really well. That way when times get tough, you have a diverse team to figure out really shitty problems quickly. </div></div>
+ 1
You never know what MOS is needed most, an being adaptable only adds value to the whole team. I've learned stuff from Cooks, paper pushers, electricians ect, that have been very useful down the line. 1964 while on KP in AIT, had a cook show me how to chill beer with Mogas. Months later I used that trick to chill/freeze some for the Brass. They gave us a R&R in Bangkok for the cold beer,... all because of a cook, while I was on KP.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was in a "recon" plt. in SE Asia (Recondo, HHC 2/502 Inf 101st Abn Div.

You want light, supper light. You don't want a heavy barrel. The M16A1 worked great, the CAR 15 (short version) worked better.

You don't want any gismos or tacticool stuff. You don't want anything that hangs up on brush.

We were in the field from 30=60 days, YOU WANT LIGHT. You don't have Humvees bringing you bottled water, you carry what you need. We would get re-supplied about once ever 5-7 days, and then you De De's from your resupplied point cause it was going to be over run with bandits.

YOU WANT LIGHT, not tacticool. I don't care what Waki says. </div></div>

You're arguing semantics. Just because your definition of "recon" doesn't include night vision capabilities does not mean folks are not RIGHT NOW humping the mountains of Afghanistan with heavy rifles and not having humvees bring them bottled water.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're arguing semantics. Just because your definition of "recon" doesn't include night vision capabilities does not mean folks are not RIGHT NOW humping the mountains of Afghanistan with heavy rifles and not having humvees bring them bottled water.</div></div>

Who said anything about "no night vision capabilities" we had Starlights, they mounted on M16a1s and were very effective at night.

I still say recon, as to light infantry means "going lite.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're arguing semantics. Just because your definition of "recon" doesn't include night vision capabilities does not mean folks are not RIGHT NOW humping the mountains of Afghanistan with heavy rifles and not having humvees bring them bottled water.</div></div>

Who said anything about "no night vision capabilities" we had Starlights, they mounted on M16a1s and were very effective at night.

I still say recon, as to light infantry means "going lite.
</div></div>

So what are you complaining about with regards to modern infantry? No night vision? No 203s? No lasers for use with night vision? What is "tacticool" in your book and what is usable by modern infantry? No lights for CQB?

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what are you complaining about with regards to modern infantry?</div></div>

Didn't know I was complaining, thought I was voicing my opinion based on my experience being "light" infantry and my years in a Recon Plt. Not just the jungles but in the Arctic.

The whole world isn't the middle east, I found in jungles and extreme cold (sub-zero) batteries and lights don't hold up.

I did find the M16a1 works great in both conditions, not much to go wrong, simple and light. I like maps and compuses better then GPS' and Laser Range finders.

I'll admit, starlight scopes are handy, but depending on the conditions they arn't always needed at night. It you need them take them. But with the moon in SE asia or the night skies over the frozzen tundra, they are just un-needed extra weight.

All part of your patrol planning procedures.

But like I said, this is my opinion. Not really complaining.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

I don't think you should be classifying the mountains of Afghanistan as the Middle East with regards to terrain.

 

[opshin556]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was in a "recon" plt. in SE Asia (Recondo, HHC 2/502 Inf 101st Abn Div.

You want light, supper light. You don't want a heavy barrel. The M16A1 worked great, the CAR 15 (short version) worked better.

You don't want any gismos or tacticool stuff. You don't want anything that hangs up on brush.

We were in the field from 30=60 days, YOU WANT LIGHT. You don't have Humvees bringing you bottled water, you carry what you need. We would get re-supplied about once ever 5-7 days, and then you De De's from your resupplied point cause it was going to be over run with bandits.

YOU WANT LIGHT, not tacticool. I don't care what Waki says. </div></div>

+1 on light.
coming from a guy who did 7-10 day LRRPs in similar terrain, Sinai, panama. weight will wear your ass down in hot temps very quickly, not to mention ammo, personal items, food, field gear etc.
although i will say rucking 40 pounds of gear at 20 is a hell of a lot different than at 40....

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think you should be classifying the mountains of Afghanistan as the Middle East with regards to terrain</div></div>

You miss the point, I was saying "there is no ONE terrain" for the American Soldier.

 

[Bedlam]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chris_K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It would seem from the wiki article that NSWC wasn't satisfied with the SPR and its variants, and a 16" carbine with rifle length gas was developed with a heavier barrel to fill that role. I can see the value such a rifle has, and am not asking a SEAL question but more what are the things that makes a recce a recce?</div></div>
"RECCE" will mean a lot of things to a lot of people. But in the <span style="font-style: italic">specific context</span> that you mention above, I believe High Caliber Sales is the closest you can get, and the following will explain why:

http://highcalibersales.com/reconnaissance-recce-upper.html

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

I really wonder where all these 16" recce rifles are in NSWC cuz I've never ficking seen one.

 

[Mike]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really wonder where all these 16" recce rifles are in NSWC cuz I've never ficking seen one. </div></div>

There not usually stocked in Starbucks.

 

[doc76251]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

10.5" yep
14.5" yep
18" yep
20" yep

Haven't seen a 16 yet except by the guy in the gun shop show said he was a Navy SEAL turned Delta that had one with a flash light bigger than the Trueglow red dot he was running strapped to it.....

Cheers,

Doc

 

[hydro556]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

You guys are all correct I am sure.

Just think the OP had a specific question, not a general what is best for the soldier doing recon.

Talk to Kevin at HCS. He and his buddy seem to have a pretty good answer to your specific question. Likely in stock.

The one with the glass.

 

[BCP]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Haven't seen a 16 yet except by the guy in the gun shop show said he was a Navy SEAL turned Delta that had one with a flash light bigger than the Trueglow red dot he was running strapped to it.....
</div></div>

I usually just smile and nod for people like that. Sometimes they are bullshit artists and sometimes they are victims (ie a head injury made them 'special').

Still not nearly as annoying as the nerds who want to argue pistol caliber all day.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really wonder where all these 16" recce rifles are in NSWC cuz I've never ficking seen one. </div></div>

There not usually stocked in Starbucks. </div></div>

yeah probably not, i think the whole "recce" thing was a way for some barrel makers and gun builders to put a title on the legal 16" guns and or barrels they had sitting around. i mean every other barrel length has some gucci high speed name to it. 16" is a legal barrel nothing more, you don't have to give it some high speed name "recce" thats fucking stupid. tell you what if i was doin a "recce" i would take a mk12 what purpose does losing 2" accomplish? "you can clear better with it" your a moron if you think those 2" will help that much in CQC. if your worried about your CQC put your long gun on your back and carry something short, there ya go. rather shoot a 308 semi auto anyways i have and will continue to think carrying 5.56 to shoot humans is retarded the round is entirely too underpowered.

rant over

 

[Chris K]

Re: Recce -- Recon Rife Designation

Kinda why I asked. I was hoping the barista would chime in.

Like I said, it was more of an inquisitive question about the term more than its purpose. Like we all know, names get thrown around and given legitimacy through the wonderful world of internets.

Thanks Joe, your response answered all my questions about the "recce" carbine.

C_K