PRS Talk Recoil. 6 Creed, 6 Dasher, 6GT ?

[RattlesnakeCreek]

Would someone here who has extensive time with 6 Creed, 6 Dasher and 6 GT give me an honest comparison of felt recoil. I am currently shooting a 6 Creed with 107s at 3100 in an 18lb rifle. My brass and barrel are about due to be replaced. I am considering moving to one of these other calibers.

I think maybe the real questions I’m trying to ask is: 1. Is there really a huge difference in ability to spot your shots in a free recoil situation?
2. Is the 6GT a big enough difference to move from a creedmoor.

 

[mmlook]

you could probably get a pretty good recoil estimate,
if you down load your creed to about 2900fps

speed and bullet weight plays a pretty big factor on recoil, imo

dasher at 2800fps with a 105 hybrid, feels a lot lighter than at 2900 with a 115 DTAC

 

[PAYDIRT]

Been thinking on this myself, $ wise my brain says I should stay with the 115 dtac 6 Creedmoor and do a heavier barrel profile and add some weight to my chassis. And I can never find Dasher brass in stock.

 

[Sheldon N]

Felt is somewhat of a subjective thing. Some people might feel a difference and others might not. If you boil it down to a simple energy equation, a recoil calculator is a handy tool to get a sense of the percentage difference.

JBM - Calculations - Recoil

www.jbmballistics.com

There's a couple things to consider when comparing recoil of different size cases.

First is that the total amount of powder plays a role in the amount of recoil. When the primer detonates and starts burning the powder, the powder charge itself (both burnt and unburnt) becomes part of the mass that is accelerating out the bore and contributing toward rearward energy. More powder equals more recoil, all else equal.

Second thing to consider is rate of acceleration. A small high pressure cartridge is going to accelerate a bullet faster than a large low pressure cartridge. The faster acceleration is going to feel "snappier" than a bullet that accelerates more gradually.

So a 6 creed running a 105 at 2950 compared to a Dasher running a 105 at 2950... 6 Creed will have more total recoil (more powder) with a bit longer duration, with a bit more total gas volume release from the muzzle, where the Dasher will be less recoil but a bit snappier with less muzzle gas release. This theoretical matches up pretty well with my seat of the pants shooting experience.

 

[lennyo3034]

Last year I shot a Creedmoor 105@3160.

This year I’m shooting a dasher 105@2950.

Can’t tell a difference in recoil. If anything the Creedmoor is easier to spot splashes with. I will be going back to Creedmoor after this barrel.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Felt is somewhat of a subjective thing. Some people might feel a difference and others might not. If you boil it down to a simple energy equation, a recoil calculator is a handy tool to get a sense of the percentage difference.

JBM - Calculations - Recoil

www.jbmballistics.com

There's a couple things to consider when comparing recoil of different size cases.

First is that the total amount of powder plays a role in the amount of recoil. When the primer detonates and starts burning the powder, the powder charge itself (both burnt and unburnt) becomes part of the mass that is accelerating out the bore and contributing toward rearward energy. More powder equals more recoil, all else equal.

Second thing to consider is rate of acceleration. A small high pressure cartridge is going to accelerate a bullet faster than a large low pressure cartridge. The faster acceleration is going to feel "snappier" than a bullet that accelerates more gradually.

So a 6 creed running a 105 at 2950 compared to a Dasher running a 105 at 2950... 6 Creed will have more total recoil (more powder) with a bit longer duration, with a bit more total gas volume release from the muzzle, where the Dasher will be less recoil but a bit snappier with less muzzle gas release. This theoretical matches up pretty well with my seat of the pants shooting experience.

This was my exact experience.

I actually prefer the 6cm recoil. It felt more like a slow push. Dasher was a sharp snap.

(Disclaimer before fudds come in: Obviously we are talking low recoil amounts here, I’m not talking snap of a magnum. Comparatively speaking)

 

[dgheriani]

I'd suggest downloading your 6CM to compare before you get a new barrel/caliber done up. 100fps less makes a pretty huge difference, less so in "felt recoil" but more in how much easier it is to spot your trace in less than ideal positions.

 

[Cjwise5]

I've shot all three quite a bit. 6GT the least, but I think I'll switch to 6GT when my current 6CM barrel is shot out. I can spot trace and impacts on all of them, but I did feel like the 6GT was the best of both worlds. 6Dasher was the softest shooting, but it's also moving the slowest. If you want that little extra speed over the Dasher, but want a little less recoil than the 6CM - then the GT is the way to go. Just my opinion. 6GT is also super easy to handload. I bet we will see some good factory ammo offerings in the next year or so as well.

 

[MakeSawdust]

You can influence your ability to spot your own trace more with rifle weight and brake quality than the difference between these calibers in my opinion. There is a small advantage in the ability to spot trace FOR ME between 6 Dasher with 105s at 2850 and 115 DTACs at 3050. I'm not great at spotting trace while shooting with any of them, but what I do notice is the difference in the splash of a miss or the ability to see where I hit on a target is much better the more energy you have on target and the more bullet mass there is. I notice a considerable difference even between 115s at 3050 and 105s at 3175. Even the extra speed on the 105 doesn't make up the difference between 105s and 115s for me when it comes to spotting the bullets impacting the target/ground.

 

[Lowlight]

If you can't spot your shots and stay on target off a tripod, barricade, or anything like that with a 6mm of any flavor you need to go take a class or start over.

The rifle set up, design, weight, etc also has a factor in feel.

I tend to like the push recoils as noted vs the snappier recoils, I think you are silly to consider a Dasher with the other options out there, not a fan. The 6GT and 6CM are both great to shoot. Super mellow.

 

[mtnhunter22]

Haven’t had much with the dasher but I feel the GT is such a good mix of recoil and ease of feeding. Compared to the creed it’s less, but not by much. With the dasher I would rather take the recoil penalty to be able to run without modifying mags.

 

[mmlook]

If you can't spot your shots and stay on target off a tripod, barricade, or anything like that with a 6mm of any flavor you need to go take a class or start over.

The rifle set up, design, weight, etc also has a factor in feel.

I tend to like the push recoils as noted vs the snappier recoils, I think you are silly to consider a Dasher with the other options out there, not a fan. The 6GT and 6CM are both great to shoot. Super mellow.

agree on your points on recoil management

biggest difference to me on dasher(any BR based) vs.GT vs. 6CM is
Barrel life vs. Brass availability

for me(most maybe), we want good barrel life and good brass availability.

Dasher:
Brass
- Lapua, Alpha, Peterson, Norma
Barrel Life
- easily 2500-3000

GT
Brass
- Alpha, Hornady
Barrel Life
- TBD, looking like 2000, 2500 is pushing it

6CM
Brass
- Lapua, Alpha, Atlas, Peterson, Hornady, Winchester, Federal, etc...
Barrel Life
- 1500, 2000 if you're lucky

if you can get over the fire forming and mag kits.
Dasher and the BR variants are still quite appealing,

 

[Lowlight]

They don't feed right all the time,

And seriously we are reduced to quibbling over 500 rounds of barrel life?

I would do a BR-A over a Dasher

 

[mmlook]

They don't feed right all the time,

And seriously we are reduced to quibbling over 500 rounds of barrel life?

I would do a BR-A over a Dasher

they do take work to feed 100% reliably
- to me this is true of all guns and calibers
- just some take more work than others,
I guess I see it differently, cause I shoot a decent amount of 2011s.
if you want to talk about feeding problems, ask anyone with a 2011 the work they had to do to get them to run 100%

i definitely agree on BRA over dasher
- if I had to start all over again, I would go BRA

it’s a bit more than 500 rounds.
really depends how you run them.
lots of overlap

i guess it depends on the distances you mostly shoot as well.

200-800, dasher/BRA all day every day
300-1000, GT starts to look better
500-1200, 6cm, 6x47, 6xc for sure

 

[PRSHallowell]

Would someone here who has extensive time with 6 Creed, 6 Dasher and 6 GT give me an honest comparison of felt recoil. I am currently shooting a 6 Creed with 107s at 3100 in an 18lb rifle. My brass and barrel are about due to be replaced. I am considering moving to one of these other calibers.

I think maybe the real questions I’m trying to ask is: 1. Is there really a huge difference in ability to spot your shots in a free recoil situation?
2. Is the 6GT a big enough difference to move from a creedmoor.

I had a 6 creed in a Cadex Chassis and 26" Criterion barrel, weighing around 18lbs loaded. Free recoiling the rifle, I was still able to spot my misses and hits fairly consistent depending on the position I was in during competitions. No experience with the other calibers. Right now I'm running a 6 Creed in a McMillan A6 stock with a Ingenuity ARCA Rail and 26" barrel and recoil is still pretty soft. Look at the 6x47 Lapua or 6.5x47 Lapua if you want a light recoiling rifle.

 

[Dthomas3523]

agree on your points on recoil management

biggest difference to me on dasher(any BR based) vs.GT vs. 6CM is
Barrel life vs. Brass availability

for me(most maybe), we want good barrel life and good brass availability.

Dasher:
Brass
- Lapua, Alpha, Peterson, Norma
Barrel Life
- easily 2500-3000

GT
Brass
- Alpha, Hornady
Barrel Life
- TBD, looking like 2000, 2500 is pushing it

6CM
Brass
- Lapua, Alpha, Atlas, Peterson, Hornady, Winchester, Federal, etc...
Barrel Life
- 1500, 2000 if you're lucky

if you can get over the fire forming and mag kits.
Dasher and the BR variants are still quite appealing,

What’s your source for “looking like 2000”?

I have heard of zero people pulling a barrel by or before 2k. Actually have only heard of a barrel or two pulled at all and they were 2500+.

I think brass has some improvements to be made. But I can’t see how anyone is speculating barrel life yet.

 

[mmlook]

What’s your source for “looking like 2000”?

I have heard of zero people pulling a barrel by or before 2k. Actually have only heard of a barrel or two pulled at all and they were 2500+.

I think brass has some improvements to be made. But I can’t see how anyone is speculating barrel life yet.

secret, lol
- it's mostly the Norcal crew, but we are all on lock down now

I'm guessing barrel life based on the powder charge needed to hit 3050fps with a 105 hybrid
- about 34.0-35.0gr of Varget
- about 39-40.0gr of H4350

a 6x47 or a 6xc run at those charge weights will get similar speeds, with less pressure.
- you'll be lucky to get either of these to break 2000 rounds and shoot sub 0.5moa

maybe another way,
GT barrel life will be less than any BR variant, if run at the same speed.
That's really all I'm stating

Sorry to somewhat derail the thread.

 

[Dthomas3523]

secret, lol
- it's mostly the Norcal crew, but we are all on lock down now

I'm guessing barrel life based on the powder charge needed to hit 3050fps with a 105 hybrid
- about 34.0-35.0gr of Varget
- about 39-40.0gr of H4350

a 6x47 or a 6xc run at those charge weights will get similar speeds, with less pressure.
- you'll be lucky to get either of these to break 2000 rounds and shoot sub 0.5moa

maybe another way,
GT barrel life will be less than any BR variant, if run at the same speed.
That's really all I'm stating

Sorry to somewhat derail the thread.

So, basically no data to support a barrel life claim at the moment.

 

[mmlook]

So, basically no data to support a barrel life claim at the moment.

lol, dont be dick.

I did lose to a brand new GT last paper match, so I'll shut my mouth for now.

 

[AFancyPenguin]

I dont think he is being a dick. He is clearly pointing out your lack of data. There is way to much shit flung around like gospel without anything backing it up. Sometimes it just comes across coarsely.

I agree, I haven't even seen anecdotal evidence of 2k yet.

 

[DairyDictator]

Why no love for good old 243 or 243AI?

 

[mmlook]

I dont think he is being a dick. He is clearly pointing out your lack of data. There is way to much shit flung around like gospel without anything backing it up. Sometimes it just comes across coarsely.

I agree, I haven't even seen anecdotal evidence of 2k yet.

that's why I prefaced it with "lol"

if I wanted to be dick back, I could have said he has just as much data as me in terms of 6GT barrel life.
- read my post as well, I said its looking like 2k, with 2500 being a stretch
- he posts, his friends are getting 2500+
- I like Franks comment, let's not argue over 500rds of barrel life
- You can burn a BR barrel in 1k rounds, very easy, you can stretch a 6cm to 3k, not so easy
- my point, there's no way the GT gets 25% more barrel life than a 6XC/6x47, if you burn the same amount of powder

anyways, back on topic,
recoil.
6GT vs. Dasher/BRA/BRX

Dasher will recoil less if you run the same speed, bullet, and gun weight in both.
Did a side by side at the last club match before the CA shutdown.

is it enough to make a difference?
depends how you shoot, and how heavy your gun is.

 

[RogueTanker]

Why no love for good old 243 or 243AI?

I ran a 243 shooting 115s last season and this year running a dasher with 112s. Definitely a noticeable difference in recoil. 46gr h1000 vs 31.5 of Xbr

 

[generalzip]

I own a 6creed and a 6BRA (damn near identical to dasher case capacity) and there is a very big difference between the two in terms of recoil. I’ve loaded 115 dtacs and 105 hybrids in the 6 creed. In the BRA I load 105s. Both rounds I load to similar pressure levels.

I can spot impacts on unstable positions WAY easier with the BRA. So much so I just had another BRA barrel spun up to replace the 6 creed.
Both rifles are the EXACT same setups. MDT ACC, Same scopes, same barrel length and contour, same muzzle brake, same weights on chassis. The BRA will keep the target in the sight picture under free recoil. The creedmoor throws the field of view so far you can’t see the target. With the DTACs there is a noticeable difference from the 105s.
As far as feeding I’ve run a BR for a season, and now a BRA. I think I had one jam the entire season from a mag that got too dirty and spring was worn down. Cleaned it and stretched the spring and never saw the problem again. When I ran creed the season before I actually had more malfunctions than running the BR cases with MDT BR mags. Every mag I’ve owned for any caliber I need to tweak to get perfect. Not every chassis and action is exactly the same so in my option they all need minor mods to feedlips to get them perfect.

For PRS you’ll see an advantage with the dasher for sure. Not only is there less recoil making it easier to spot misses when you need to free recoil, but you’ll also have better barrel life, more consistency over barrel life due to less throat erosion, and the Dasher is just harder to find a bad load for. 6 creed requires a bit more attention and hassle in my experience.

 

[223762]

If felt recoil, seeing impacts and getting back on target is the name of the game. Why not a 22 creedmoor? I have no first hand with this caliber. But on paper it looks really good. Sierra 95MK or Hornady 90 atip at 3150 looks like it well shoot inside a 108 going 3050 or 110 atip going 2950. It may only be a couple or few inches. And I wouldn’t think its going to be a hot load to get the 95MK at 3150. I would think recoil is going to be less also. Barrel life may suck. But a mild load maybe not. Not trying to derail this thread. Just think out loud.

 

[morganlamprecht]

If felt recoil, seeing impacts and getting back on target is the name of the game. Why not a 22 creedmoor? I have no first hand with this caliber. But on paper it looks really good. Sierra 95MK or Hornady 90 atip at 3150 looks like it well shoot inside a 108 going 3050 or 110 atip going 2950. It may only be a couple or few inches. And I wouldn’t think its going to be a hot load to get the 95MK at 3150. I would think recoil is going to be less also. Barrel life may suck. But a mild load maybe not. Not trying to derail this thread. Just think out loud.

its a balance...22creed, youre back out of the forgiving consistent nature of the mild 6s, which is a bigger advantage than felt recoil IMO...being able to shoot a barrel for 1000+ rounds without anything weird happening and surprising you

also, if u go too small on the bullet, even with added speed, you lose splash/impact signature/trace...not just in dirt, but on target

one of the biggest draw backs when i run 223 (80.5s going 2850) is plate impacts, usually outside of 400 yds, i cant really tell if im favoring one 1/2 of the plate, because the plate doesnt really swing on impact...shooting 6/6.5s beside it, you can tell every impact if it was center, left, or right

my 22creed was fun tho, didnt run it in matches, just dickin around, but it had no issues getting to 1k with 80s @ 3300...the newer bullets would be even sweeter im sure

 

[Dthomas3523]

Had the same issue with 22br. Running 3000fps with an 85.5 berger.

Misses weren’t a problem. But at 5/600yds or so, I could barely tell I hit a plate if it was heavy, much less see which side I hit. I’d purposely try hitting on the sides and it still wouldn’t swing enough.

 

[223762]

I have heard of 22brs having a hard time seeing hits. You don’t think about 10 grns more bullet and about 150fps would help with seeing hits at 600 yards plus? The 95 at that speed has about the same energy as a 6mm 110. I’m just going off what the ballistic calculator tells me. I have no first hand experience with a 22 creed. Or does that little bit of extra mass from a 6mm really matter that much?

 

[Dthomas3523]

I have heard of 22brs having a hard time seeing hits. You don’t think about 10 grns more bullet and about 150fps would help with seeing hits at 600 yards plus? The 95 at that speed has about the same energy as a 6mm 110. I’m just going off what the ballistic calculator tells me. I have no first hand experience with a 22 creed. Or does that little bit of extra mass from a 6mm really matter that much?

My theory is around 100gr or so is the cutoff of balance. Less doesn’t hit steel hard enough and just a little more moves it enough to make the reduction in recoil from 6.5 worth it.

The 95 might do it, but I’ve also heard mixed reviews on that bullet being “finnicky.” Though that’s usually due to user error.

 

[223762]

My theory is around 100gr or so is the cutoff of balance. Less doesn’t hit steel hard enough and just a little more moves it enough to make the reduction in recoil from 6.5 worth it.

The 95 might do it, but I’ve also heard mixed reviews on that bullet being “finnicky.” Though that’s usually due to user error.

Yea, makes sense. Thanks buddy

 

[mmlook]

My theory is around 100gr or so is the cutoff of balance. Less doesn’t hit steel hard enough and just a little more moves it enough to make the reduction in recoil from 6.5 worth it.

The 95 might do it, but I’ve also heard mixed reviews on that bullet being “finnicky.” Though that’s usually due to user error.

have you tried the new 6mm solids from PVA?

at the same price as A-Tips, higher BC(0.318 vs. .304), and 10gr less.

definitely worth a look.

FLM 6mm 100gr "Seneca" Competition Bullets - 50 ct

[email protected]

patriotvalleyarms.com

 

[Dthomas3523]

have you tried the new 6mm solids from PVA?

at the same price as A-Tips, higher BC(0.318 vs. .304), and 10gr less.

definitely worth a look.

FLM 6mm 100gr "Seneca" Competition Bullets - 50 ct

[email protected]

patriotvalleyarms.com

I might at some point. The lack of hit indication being discussed was with .224 bullets though

 

[Sheldon N]

Solids intrigue me too, but I do worry about whether impacts would be called on targets that don't have a flasher. I know sometimes it's only the puff/spatter of lead from bullet impact that gives the indication of an impact, especially on center hits on middle distance targets with larger plates. Center punch a IPSC at 700-800 yards and I could see a lot of no calls.

 

[morganlamprecht]

If they hit steel like barnes solids, hard pass

I hit a 50% size 3/8” loose hanging coyote 3x w/ 127 barnes from a 6.5prc @ 510 yds with 3 people standing next to me, suppressed, and they all thought I missed all 3 shots looking without glass, hardly any impact sound either

thru the scope I could see the target move but no slash on steel at all