Recommend a rifle to learn on? And why a PF action?

[TheBigCountry]

For someone just getting into LR shooting, and who wants to learn the art and eventually get into some practical/tactical competitions, what would be a good rifle to start with to learn all the basics? I have always had a preference for CRF actions, and it seems the majority of LR rings are PF designs. Why is that so?

I am eyeing a FNH USA SPR A5M XP: FNH USA - Distinct Advantage :: FN SPR? A5M XP

Thanks,

Big Country

 

[Bear24]

There is nothing wrong with the SPR at all, I have been shooting mine in local comps and it has been great! I am very happy that I went that way first because I have put about 2k rounds of 308 down the tube and the thing is barely broke in and for a new shooter getting rounds down range is how you learn and not having to worry about burning the barrel out of a 6mm or 6.5mm is nice. After you get some exp in shooting the comps you will want to move to a different cal most likely though.

However, I did just buy a Surgeon switch barrel setup that will be my dedicated comp gun but my SPR isn't going anywhere.

 

[cfulback32]

I think it's pretty tough to figure out exactly what you want before you get your feet wet. For that reason, I think that a 308 700 SPS (or one of the 26" models if you prefer) dropped into any of the chassis systems (AI, Mcree, XLR, etc) is a good and easy way to start.

You get to learn, go to matches, see what everyone else is using and why, shoot some of their guns, learn who does good smith work in your area, etc. Then, when it's time to upgrade after a year or so of matches, it's very easy to do so either on your existing action and stock, or it's easy to sell what you have for not much less than you paid. It also get's you into a very functional setup for ~$1200 or so.

As far as why most guys aren't using controlled feed actions, I don't know.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

For what that A5M will run you can get a AI AE MKIII from mile high right now. The AI is a superior rifle, push feed or not.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

Tactical Coordination has good deals on FN SPR A1s for $1235. That's one of the best values out there for a starter rifle.

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[TheBigCountry]

Thanks for the input so far. I am leery about 700's, and have eyeballed the FN series for some time. I have looked at the AI rifle as mentioned by one poster, and it looks like a hell of a rifle for the money. I did find out though I can get LEO/MIL pricing on the FN, which would be an even sweeter deal.

Please keep the input coming.

Best,

BC

 

[kmose73]

If you are set on a CRF, get a savage. That will get you up and running For way less money until you figure out what fits you. And you have the capability of swapping out barrels if you want. $.02

 

[Walsh]

Savage is also a push feed, CRF feed action of modern factory manufacture are FNH, Kimber, and Ruger along with your Mauser variants, 1903s, and custom actions.

 

[FailToObserve]

What's your budget for the rifle alone?

Only reason I suggest 700 to new comers is because.. If you like it.. Keep it and poor more money into it. You don't like it.. Easy to sell. Doesn't look good? Bedazzle the shit out of it. The opportunities are endless with the 700 because it's such a standard now everyone has made accessories or chassis systems for it. And any smith that isn't tacticalrifles.net knows how to fix it up.




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[redneckbmxer24]

I've had a lot of rifles including a couple FN's (two SPR A1's) and nothing five had or shot feeds as smooth or reliable as an AI. Even with a good mil/LE discount I'd still pay the extra for the AI, it's worth every last penny.

 

[Walsh]

What is so special about AI rifles?What seriously sets them apart?

 

[RyanScott]

Built like a brick shithouse, interchangeable parts, impervious to weather changes and purpose built for snipers rather than a turd of an economy rifle like the Remington.

 

[ashiha]

Built like a brick shithouse, interchangeable parts, impervious to weather changes and purpose built for snipers rather than a turd of an economy rifle like the Remington.

Slow clap.

Also they are accurate as all hell.

 

[The_FNG]

If you are set on a CRF, get a savage. That will get you up and running For way less money until you figure out what fits you. And you have the capability of swapping out barrels if you want. $.02

Not sure where you got the idea Savage is a CRF.

 

[pyplynr]

I had a older factory 270WSM Savage that was CRF, but all the non wsms I've had we're push feed.

 

[Hunt4life]

CRF is for applications where firing the next round is far more important than accuracy, ie war (main battle rifle) or dangerous game hunting. That said they can be very accurate as well, but a pf is a more simple way to go and I think in many cases offer fewer chances for things to get out of concentricity. Even a sniper in battle is concealed so if there is an issue he is not in immediate danger, though the CRF vs PF reliability issue I believe is mostly philosophical.

 

[gimpy]

As a reloader, I'll take CRF any day. I had forgotten about how PF slings brass until I got my GAP recently. Thinking next build will be on a McMillan CRF action.

 

[Walsh]

Yea those are some beautiful actions..... but at $1435?!? They better load their self! I'd love to have a CRF with a 700 footprint.

 

[kmose73]

Not sure where you got the idea Savage is a CRF.

Please excuse my ignorance.

 

[Walsh]

Built like a brick shithouse, interchangeable parts, impervious to weather changes and purpose built for snipers rather than a turd of an economy rifle like the Remington.

So is an FNH rifle like the A3G model..... what makes AI rifles so much better?

 

[SSC]

One of the big benefits to going with a Remington 700 is the availability of used aftermarket parts. Just look through the For Sale section and you will see that there is no shortage of used 700 parts for some really great deals. No would would tell you that the 700 is the perfect platform for accuracy. It is just the industry standard and has the aftermarket support to prove it. I tell all the new shooters to buy some used parts to try out if they are unsure of what they want. You can almost always sell them for about the same price as you bought them.

 

[diderr]

700 police, remington 5r, FN SPR. All great guns that can be upgraded later as skill, and needs change.

 

[jdonovan]

I have always had a preference for CRF actions, and it seems the majority of LR rings are PF designs. Why is that so?

Most CRF's need to feed from the mag, or you are forcing parts to bend in non-designed ways to snap over the head of the cartridge. With a push feed I can pull a cartridge from a belt, or other location and drop it into the action and push it into the chamber, CRF I have to put it into the magazine first.

I don't think CRF/PF would, or should be a critical deciding factor for selecting a long range precision rifle.


As far as a starter rifle. Rem 700 would be my vote. There is a constant supply of them and their parts in the used market. There are a limitless selection of aftermarket upgrades available.

If you decide this isn't the hobby for you its easy to get out of the Rem 700, and you don't have $3000+ tied into a semi-custom rig, that you'll take a bath on selling.

Chances are no matter what starter rig you get, if the bug bites you are going to want to upgrade from your starter rig.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

So is an FNH rifle like the A3G model..... what makes AI rifles so much better?

60 degree bolt throw, M16 style extractor, best trigger you can get, hand lapped SS barrel, rock solid chassis system, uses the best magazines on the market. Also you can call pretty much any decent gunsmith and order a barrel that will match right up without sending in your action or having a gay ass barrel nut.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

60 degree bolt throw, M16 style extractor, best trigger you can get, hand lapped SS barrel, rock solid chassis system, uses the best magazines on the market. Also you can call pretty much any decent gunsmith and order a barrel that will match right up without sending in your action or having a gay ass barrel nut.

You're kinda stuck with their chassis though, which isn't for everyone.

I agree that its a better rifle, but I can see how some people would prefer the more traditional stock. SPR does get the edge on the extractor, not that it makes a difference...a rifle that extracts all the time is a rifle that extracts all the time.

Putting my SPR through the same course of fire as an AE would probably yield similar results.

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[Walsh]

Thats a good point to make, the FN and the AI are the same as far as toughness, reliability, and accuracy goes. AI rifles just get more of the glamor.

 

[dimar1492]

Thats a good point to make, the FN and the AI are the same as far as toughness, reliability, and accuracy goes. AI rifles just get more of the glamor.

Biggest line of bullshit I heard in a while!!! They are not even close. Ask anyone who has owned both. The AI's are on another level. Especially the AW and AX.

 

[bkw1911]

Thats a good point to make, the FN and the AI are the same as far as toughness, reliability, and accuracy goes. AI rifles just get more of the glamor.

Yeah... thats how I feel about my Taurus 1911, nighthawk just takes all the unearned glamor...

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[dimar1492]

Yeah... thats how I feel about my Taurus 1911, nighthawk just takes all the unearned glamor...

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You are comparing one 1911 to another 1911. The two rifles are completely different. The good thing about semi auto pistols is that you can get the ultimate in reliability cheaper than most 1911s when you buy a glock. Not the same with bolt rifles.

 

[bkw1911]

You are comparing one 1911 to another 1911. The two rifles are completely different. The good thing about semi auto pistols is that you can get the ultimate in reliability cheaper than most 1911s when you buy a glock. Not the same with bolt rifles.

That was a joke my friend. I dont even trust Taurus as a paperweight

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[B.Bates]

AJ,

Where in South Florida are you located? and Where do you plan on shooting?

I would recomend that you sign up for the Jan course at K&M, there will be plenty of guns there for you to try out and they have guns available for you to use during the class. After the weekend i think you will have a better idea if this is something you want to purse and invest your time and money in, start off on the right foot.

let me know if you have any questions, i am located up in the Palatka/ St. Aug area

Basic Long Range Precision Rifle Course | K&M Precision Rifle Training LLC




.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I've personally broken an extractor on a pre 64 action and I know other people who have too. Just because it's a big beefy extractor doesn't make it a superior design or do anything more for reliability. Look how many thousands and thousands of rounds an M16 extractor lasts on full auto. Yeah, I'll take that one.

I wouldn't trade an AI for 10 FN's, they're not on the same level.

 

[LRJammer]

Please excuse my ignorance.

They did make one model that was CRF. Absolutely no comparison in quality or performance with the Win M-70/FN though. Two different worlds. My LR rifle is built on a Savage action but the rest of my rifles are all Winchester/FN CRF actions. Wouldnt use anything else. There is nothing wrong with using a CRF action for a long range rifle either, I just wanted to be able to install and change my own barrels quickly and easily.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

I've personally broken an extractor on a pre 64 action and I know other people who have too. Just because it's a big beefy extractor doesn't make it a superior design or do anything more for reliability. Look how many thousands and thousands of rounds an M16 extractor lasts on full auto. Yeah, I'll take that one.

I wouldn't trade an AI for 10 FN's, they're not on the same level.

You're arguing an M16 extractor is a superior design to the mauser extractor based on your anecdotal experience?

I mean if we're going off of anecdotal experience, I've broken M16 and Sako extractors more often than I've broke Mauser extractors. I've also never broken an extractor on a Winchester, countless Mauser's with junk ammo, or a Springfield extractor.


I'm not saying FN is the same manufacturing standard as AI, but I dont have 100 receivers to measure either.

The more important question to ask is does it even matter? Everyone likes to get worked over very superficial qualities. Who cares if you can jump out of an airplane or run your rifle over with a duece...nobody in their right mind would do that. I can take my FN and throw it in the bottom of a lake for a month and it'll still shoot...but why the fuck would I do that?

Between the two rifles, they'll do the exact same job. You can get into an FN for less, and money is a factor for most people. Right now at where Mike has them priced at they are a good value.



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[Niles Coyote]

Another option to look at is the winchester stealth 308. I have had both the SPR A1 and now the stealth. The four main differences between them are standard scope screws rather than the HD type of the SPR, a B&C stock rather than a mcmillan, no chrome bore and a MOA trigger. I got my stealth for about 50% less than what the SPR cost me and it is easily 50fps faster maybe even 75fps with the same load. It also shoots a little tighter. YMMV...

 

[LRJammer]

I've personally broken an extractor on a pre 64 action and I know other people who have too. Just because it's a big beefy extractor doesn't make it a superior design or do anything more for reliability. Look how many thousands and thousands of rounds an M16 extractor lasts on full auto. Yeah, I'll take that one.

I wouldn't trade an AI for 10 FN's, they're not on the same level.

Not knocking an AI in any way but a Win/FN extractor can be easily replace in about 2 minutes with little or no tools whatsoever.

 

[shadydiesel]

^^^this

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[LRJammer]

No lost sleep whatsoever. I have three Win/FN rifles and have had no issues or failures whatsever in over 20 years. The AI rifles have their place, but in my opinion, in the sporting/hunting realm, the CRF actions have no peer, including the expensive Remington knock-offs. Not many care to carry a 17-20 lb rifle through the woods and/or mountains. When your AI/Remington has a feeding problem at a critical time, (and in time, they all do) you will be left trying to fish the jammed round out of the chamber with your fingers, knife, etc... A CRF action will extract it, eject it, and be back in action in a snap.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

That's funny, AI's and Remington's seem to do just fine on two way ranges... I'd say it doesn't get any more critical than that.

I've had all of them and NOTHING feeds like an AI.

 

[AEROMechanic]

Thats a good point to make, the FN and the AI are the same as far as toughness, reliability, and accuracy goes. AI rifles just get more of the glamor.

What are you smoking?

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

That's funny, AI's and Remington's seem to do just fine on two way ranges... I'd say it doesn't get any more critical than that.

I've had all of them and NOTHING feeds like an AI.

So by that measure the standard Remington extractor is the bees knees.

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[Walsh]

What am I smoking? To be honest I have never fired an AI, held one once..... My experience with factory Remington extractors has been sub-par, it wouldn't extract steel casings after multiple shots whereas my FNH Model 70 Stealth extracts it all. I know the Remington is not an AI, nor does it have an aftermarket Sako/M16 extractor.

I would love to fire an AI rifle sometime, but I do not have that kinda cash, nor do they come in my beloved 30-06.

Anyways, my dollar is spent on a 1903 or Winchester actions. I can fix a broken extractor on both in a minute, and fix just about anypart of the 03 bolt with my hands. I do not think that you can do that with an AI.

I know their in two far different categories, but unless you are slamming your rifle against concrete and also require 1 MOA, I think your better off using a Winchester. 1903 rifles have been used in hand to hand combat, and have still fired effectively at enemines quite a distance away.

Like I said, I am sure AI rifles are very nice rifle, and I would love to have one.

 

[RyanScott]

So is an FNH rifle like the A3G model..... what makes AI rifles so much better?

FNs creep up a lot closer on the AI than most, though the chassis options aren't great at the moment and a chassis really is better than a stock.

 

[RyanScott]

Most CRF's need to feed from the mag, or you are forcing parts to bend in non-designed ways to snap over the head of the cartridge. With a push feed I can pull a cartridge from a belt, or other location and drop it into the action and push it into the chamber, CRF I have to put it into the magazine first.

I don't think CRF/PF would, or should be a critical deciding factor for selecting a long range precision rifle.

Most mag fed rifles can't be topped off anyway, except the AI AW and AX of course.

Where CRF made it's bones is feeding at odd angles, like muzzle up while the operator is running. You won't be slinging an 18 pound rifle that way. The AI is push feed and I'm ok with that for what it does... but my hunting rifles are CRF.

The AI rifles are head and shoulders above other rifles. I've had/used both. The FN is much closer than the Remington but it's still a whole different thing.

 

[jdonovan]

Most mag fed rifles can't be topped off anyway, except the AI AW and AX of course.

Most of my CRF rifles are of the dangerous game size, and have internal magazines. So topping off is the only way to load them..

but I agree if we are talking removable magazines, then yes, the vast majority are not able to be topped off when inside the firearm.

 

[TheBigCountry]

Didnt mean to start a war with this thread. I thank everyone for all their help and advice.

I have done some snooping and looking and I am leaning towards a Remington 700 5R Stainless as a base rifle. I get a nice deal on Steiner tacticals to top it. I can always mod the hell out of the 700 down the road, and if I don't end up continuing this hobby I can dump it without taking a significant loss.

Other option I thought of though is a barreled 700 action cut for AW mags from Northwest Actionworks. Thoughts on that?

 

[FailToObserve]

These brand wars will always happen. Can't be avoided and they help bring the pros and cons out for the brands. Just try to avoid posts that compare a 700 to an AI (apples to oranges, completely different tiers)

This is your starter rifle. My suggestion is don't jump to the end. Start with the 700 5R as is. And slowly build. This will always give you something to look forward to. You'll be more knowledgable about your rifle and have much more experience. You'll have a much better bond with your rifle. It may cost more money in the long run but it's kind of like an adventure you go through. Plus there's always demand for 700 parts. So you can recover some money when you replace your parts. In my opinion, a hobby should have projects that last your life time. Or possibly never finish.


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[TheBigCountry]

I am leaning towards the MilSpec. FailToObserve hit the nail on the head for me.

But, I have to ask, what can be said about the quality of the new 700's? I have heard some are lemons, and that Remingtons quality has gone to hell. That is the one thing holding me back on a Remington...

 

[RyanScott]

Remington has the spottiest quality they have ever had. My gunsmith got a rifle in recently that was a 270 bore and 280 chamber.

For a little more you can have an FN SPR.