I think the reason I mock green reticles, especially for pistols, is because a trained shooter focused on the target should find it easier to detect the flash of red easier/quicker than green. YMMV
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Sidearms & Scatterguns Red Dot Dilemma
- Thread starter NFAJohn
- Start date
The Physics of Light and Color - Human Vision and Color Perception | Olympus LS
The Physics of Light and Color - Human Vision and Color Perception
www.olympus-lifescience.com
"In recent years, consideration of human color visual sensitivity has led to changes in the long-standing practice of painting emergency vehicles, such as fire trucks and ambulances, entirely red. Although the color is intended for the vehicles to be easily seen and responded to, the wavelength distribution is not highly visible at low light levels and appears nearly black at night. The human eye is much more sensitive to yellow-green or similar hues, particularly at night, and now most new emergency vehicles are at least partially painted a vivid yellowish green or white, often retaining some red highlights in the interest of tradition."
Interesting. It'd be informative if objective scientific research was done with otherwise identical optics on identical firearms with a few thousand people who are trained and competent in the use of dot optics. Perhaps the results would be surprising.The Physics of Light and Color - Human Vision and Color Perception | Olympus LS
The Physics of Light and Color - Human Vision and Color Perception
"In recent years, consideration of human color visual sensitivity has led to changes in the long-standing practice of painting emergency vehicles, such as fire trucks and ambulances, entirely red. Although the color is intended for the vehicles to be easily seen and responded to, the wavelength distribution is not highly visible at low light levels and appears nearly black at night. The human eye is much more sensitive to yellow-green or similar hues, particularly at night, and now most new emergency vehicles are at least partially painted a vivid yellowish green or white, often retaining some red highlights in the interest of tradition."
At night, on Navy ships, we set "Condition Dog Zebra." It means "darken ship." No lights on the outside of the ship. And any spaces that connect to the weather decks (outdoor areas on ship) via a hatch (aka door) have a switch built into the hatch. When the hatch is opened, that switch automatically turns off any regular lights in that space and turns on red colored lights. Why? Because it's much harder for human eyes to detect red at night and at distances.
The Physics of Light and Color - Human Vision and Color Perception | Olympus LS
The Physics of Light and Color - Human Vision and Color Perception
"In recent years, consideration of human color visual sensitivity has led to changes in the long-standing practice of painting emergency vehicles, such as fire trucks and ambulances, entirely red. Although the color is intended for the vehicles to be easily seen and responded to, the wavelength distribution is not highly visible at low light levels and appears nearly black at night. The human eye is much more sensitive to yellow-green or similar hues, particularly at night, and now most new emergency vehicles are at least partially painted a vivid yellowish green or white, often retaining some red highlights in the interest of tradition."
That's the more recent selling point on green optics anyway.
In practice, it doesn't matter unless your eyes prefer one or the other. If you're not screwing around with manual brightness adjustments (and most likely getting it wrong at least part of every day) the optic should be setting itself to be bright and visible enough regardless if it's red or green.
For my eyes, green shows more starburst in every optic I've tried, while red is generally a nice clean round dot. I've switched back to red, obviously.
If you're using the auto brightness feature though, then it's automatically dimming to conserve battery under your clothing. If not, that's just one more strike against manual brightness adjustments for a carry application.
Although a P80 frame and cheapo cutout slide have no place in a good carry gun either IMO. Reliability is too important to play games with this stuff.
I use the auto-bright setting. The only time I go to manual is at the range where the overhead light at the shooting booth is bright and downrange is dark. It results in a reticle that is too bright. So, I prefer to turn it down manually for my indoor range sessions.
And since you decided to go off-topic, I'll address that just this once.
What makes you think / assume the slide was cheap? Furthermore unreliable? This build cost considerably more than what a retail factory Glock goes for. I don't do anything "cheap." Ask my wife! LOL!
I own 3 factory Glocks. I have carried the G27 and the G19. I now prefer this serialized (100% factory finished) P80 PFC9 frame. And it has exactly 7,656 flawless rounds through it. Yes, I track and document it. What would you call "reliable?"
All internal parts are OEM Glock.
My most recent session... I'll take it. The 3D torso target was from "compressed ready"... punch out... rapid fire a 4 to 5 shot string.
And I carry a "BUG." (S&W 642)
PS.... I did have an OEM Glock firing pin (in the P80) fail at 7400 rounds. The tip broke off. The trigger spring on my factory G19 broke at about 8,000 rounds.
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That assumes that everyone's vision works the same. Which is utterly ignorant.
Have you ever heard of color blindness for instance?
Another dumb comparison.
Especially because that's not the reason for red indoor lighting at night. It's to make it easier and faster for the eyes of topside watchstanders to adapt to darkness.
If red lights were so fucking difficult to see at night then why is the port side running light red?
Yes. That, too. I wasn't referring to that.
And that's not why the dog zebra hatches (that access weather decks) have that switch that (when opened) turn off the white light and switch to red. It's so the white light in those spaces (which are NOT normally illuminated with red) doesn't "leak" outside and possibly compromise the security of the ship. As soon as the hatch is re-closed, the inside light goes back to regular white light. I was there. I used those hatches.
But, yes... red lights are also used, as working illumination in places like the bridge to preserve night vision of the folks on duty (who need that night vision). Again... not what I was talking about. Carry on.
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My use of the word "should" in the comment specifically means it won't apply to everyone.
What has this word come to, there really is no hope for us is there.
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Just to follow up, Mod 1 Firearms did the machine work and dropped my slide in the mail today: total turn around time 7 days at 125 bucks. Pretty damn good deal and quick.
I opted to race cut (delete rear site dovetail).
Will follow up when slide arrives. Only part of my plan going astray at the moment is the RMRHD I thought I had secured from Midway was actually sold out when I went to pull the trigger.
I opted to race cut (delete rear site dovetail).
Will follow up when slide arrives. Only part of my plan going astray at the moment is the RMRHD I thought I had secured from Midway was actually sold out when I went to pull the trigger.
Deleting the rear sight is a mistake unless it's a competition gun or purely a range toy. Good news is most people who get into this end up with multiple optic mounted pistols so there's always next time.
If my G19 wasn't an MOS (Which I use to T&E optics) and was able to get the rear backup sight in front of my Acro P2 I'd have one.
I had this discussion with Doug at ATei who indicated that some people opt for a front sight only and use the Acro like a ghost ring site.
I need to experiment shooting like that with the dot off which I'm sure will be fine from 10 yards in, it can't be any worse than me shooting a typical J Frame that barely has sights and a heavy trigger pull.
I guess I'm stuck with a range toy for a carry gun
-Richard
Were gonna see, can always cut a dovetail in front if I need to. Personally 0-7 I'm just looking, shooting and not using any sighting system.
@NFAJohn You won’t miss or need the rear iron sight so don’t even sweat it.
The thought of “needing iron sights for a dootie or carry gun” is usually held by one of the following
-extremely “outdated” shooters
-“tactical shooters”
-People that don’t really know how to shoot a pistol that well
- a terrible combo of all the above
You DO NOT want to be one of these above people.
If you want to do more research and not take a random dudes word from the internet - Go look up Ben Stoeger (One of the best pistol shooters in the world) or if that’s not cool enough for you Matt Pranka. (Ex SOF guy, I believe Delta but could be wrong there, that wanted to get really good at shooting so naturally he got into USPSA).
/ end rant
The thought of “needing iron sights for a dootie or carry gun” is usually held by one of the following
-extremely “outdated” shooters
-“tactical shooters”
-People that don’t really know how to shoot a pistol that well
- a terrible combo of all the above
You DO NOT want to be one of these above people.
If you want to do more research and not take a random dudes word from the internet - Go look up Ben Stoeger (One of the best pistol shooters in the world) or if that’s not cool enough for you Matt Pranka. (Ex SOF guy, I believe Delta but could be wrong there, that wanted to get really good at shooting so naturally he got into USPSA).
/ end rant
I know that post is gonna hurt some feelings , its not personal, just the truth of the matter.
Oh, and I said what @308pirate wanted to say, only way less blunt/ nicer
Oh, and I said what @308pirate wanted to say, only way less blunt/ nicer
lol man honestly many many moons and pounds ago, when the crown Vic was king, patrol cars lacked computers and departments wouldn’t field tasers for fear of killing people with pacemakers we went and took this class called “instinctive shooting”.@NFAJohn You won’t miss or need the rear iron sight so don’t even sweat it.
The thought of “needing iron sights for a dootie or carry gun” is usually held by one of the following
-extremely “outdated” shooters
-“tactical shooters”
-People that don’t really know how to shoot a pistol that well
- a terrible combo of all the above
You DO NOT want to be one of these above people.
If you want to do more research and not take a random dudes word from the internet - Go look up Ben Stoeger (One of the best pistol shooters in the world) or if that’s not cool enough for you Matt Pranka. (Ex SOF guy, I believe Delta but could be wrong there, that wanted to get really good at shooting so naturally he got into USPSA).
/ end rant
The first fucking thing the instructors did was drift the sights off your pistol and you ran the class basically looking at shit and making it rain 230gr (this was before the time of the 9mm, we still had to kill combatants on horse back). I don’t think we shot past 10 yards, the emphasis of the class was clear leather and make it rain center mass.
That muscle memory is still there, the reason I wanted to look at red dots hard was for
A precise shooting past 10 yards
B my eyes are starting to suck
C I have nods and it will be cool to do ninja stuff
D I have turtles to kill in my farm ponds
In the unlikely event of the red dot failing I’m pretty damn confident I’ll be min of asshole using said dead red dot as a ghost ring with a front post to guide me home. We’re gonna see.
@NFAJohn the thing about it is that aimed fire with a red dot is as fast as point shooting with higher accountability even at very short distances.
But for that to happen the reflex sight has to be used with 100% target focus. Which is in fact how it should be used no matter the distance.
Occlude the sight by taping over the front of it to find out if you're really target focused or just think you are
But for that to happen the reflex sight has to be used with 100% target focus. Which is in fact how it should be used no matter the distance.
Occlude the sight by taping over the front of it to find out if you're really target focused or just think you are
Before the slide milling, ALG Defense marketed a saddle mount for Glock. I was intrigued and set up a 17 with Aimpoint
T-1 and had to remove the iron sight, that was 10 years ago and thousands of rounds, no regrets and consistent hits on a B-26 @100 yards. fwiw
Yes point shooting no sights @5 yards was part of our annual qualifying.
T-1 and had to remove the iron sight, that was 10 years ago and thousands of rounds, no regrets and consistent hits on a B-26 @100 yards. fwiw
Yes point shooting no sights @5 yards was part of our annual qualifying.
I have taken 3 full days of instinctive / point shooting instruction... long after the Crown Vic was king. As recently as a year ago.
@NFAJohn You won’t miss or need the rear iron sight so don’t even sweat it.
The thought of “needing iron sights for a dootie or carry gun” is usually held by one of the following
-extremely “outdated” shooters
-“tactical shooters”
-People that don’t really know how to shoot a pistol that well
- a terrible combo of all the above
You DO NOT want to be one of these above people.
If you want to do more research and not take a random dudes word from the internet - Go look up Ben Stoeger (One of the best pistol shooters in the world) or if that’s not cool enough for you Matt Pranka. (Ex SOF guy, I believe Delta but could be wrong there, that wanted to get really good at shooting so naturally he got into USPSA).
/ end rant
This has got to be the dumbest post in this thread. Classic gun gamer mentality. Try getting some training from people focused on civilian carry (reactive application), not a competition shooter. Priorities there are very different, which anyone who's actually taken the time to study would know. Only a fool would mock tactical training for this application; that's a great example of "you don't know what you don't know".
The reasons for having both irons in place and visible (and sighted in, duh) are NOT just for backup if the optic fails. That is only one of the reasons, in no particular order:
#1 - a visual verification that your optic hasn't shifted and lost zero. Lining up the iron sights will put the dot right on the front sight if both are zeroed; this is a good visual check to do every morning when strapping on the pistol.
#2 - A way to get a coarse re-zero before firing rounds if you've removed and replaced the optic and don't have a tight fit in the slide.
#3 - An aiming solution if the dot is washed out with bright light; easy to transition to the irons. See earlier comments on manual vs auto brightness; those who've worked with their pistols outside of a square range, dry or live, will know this is a real thing.
#4 - An aiming solution on the rare chance the dot goes out completely. The gamer kids might think optics are so good this never happens, but it does. I've experienced it multiple times, and it usually happens when it matters more than in practice.
Don't be so foolish as to throw out tried and proven wisdom on this stuff. The red dot market hasn't evolved so much as to eliminate the need for irons on a carry gun; that's ignorant thinking. Same for thinking iron sight backups are only for "outdated shooters", when slide mounted red dots haven't even been around for much more than about 15-18 years and didn't become common place until about 5-8 years ago. There really aren't any "outdated shooters" using them, but there are definitely a lot of "new kids" who think they know a lot more about it than they actually do. Take time to learn why things are done sometimes; don't let your arrogance make you stupid.
Setting up a competition gun is completely different - listen to the competition shooters for that; big glass with nothing else in view is great there. But don't go to those same people for gunfight training.
HOLY. SHIT. Now I see why pirate doesn’t answer nicely.
OP , I won’t derail the thread.
I named two of the best instructors in the game. One is one of the top pistol shooters in the world. The other spent a career at the highest level of MIL SOF doing bad things to the enemies of the US.
BOTH of them teach around the country to civilians, LEO, MIL, SOF, etc etc how to shoot better, andddd they don’t use irons and don’t teach irons with red dots.
Dont let thoughts from people like the poster above hold back your progression in shooting abilities. Happens way too often.
Or you can, and you too can have irons on your pistol to help you zero that dot in.
Personal hot take with regards to the above argument:
If I can only have one or the other, I’d rather have the dot, but if I can have both without compromising anything, why not?
I’ll take every tool and advantage I can get.
Same reason I like my S&W 5.7 with its BDF ammo, hits a little less than a 9 in wound channel/ cavitation, but gives me considerably more options for accuracy, penetration, and range
If I can only have one or the other, I’d rather have the dot, but if I can have both without compromising anything, why not?
I’ll take every tool and advantage I can get.
Same reason I like my S&W 5.7 with its BDF ammo, hits a little less than a 9 in wound channel/ cavitation, but gives me considerably more options for accuracy, penetration, and range
I was getting strong local range brass goblin vibes, whoa unto us to beseech the name of the cowitnessed iron sites. Surely we will die at the hands of our enemies in the moment of truth
I love when guys spout off “Only a fool would mock tactical training for this application”
Sighting system discussions and tactics discussion are totally different. It’s been a long long time since uncle sugar sent me to schools to kill the shit out of each other with sims but daddy remembers. I’ll be ok inside 10 yards with a fucking banana taped to the slide
-I gathered the useful information I needed from the helpful folks already, do as you see fit amigo
I was getting strong local range brass goblin vibes, whoa unto us to beseech the name of the cowitnessed iron sites. Surely we will die at the hands of our enemies in the moment of truth
I love when guys spout off “Only a fool would mock tactical training for this application”
Sighting system discussions and tactics discussion are totally different. It’s been a long long time since uncle sugar sent me to schools to kill the shit out of each other with sims but daddy remembers. I’ll be ok inside 10 yards with a fucking banana taped to the slide
I love the minimal effort 7-10 yard goals. You're really making some achievements there, lol. Why are you even wanting a red dot?
Between you and the two goobers you're listening to, y'all have quite the tard sandwich going on. I don't know the other gamer kid, but last time we discussed red dots 308pirate thought co-witnessed irons meant you have to line up the irons with the dot to aim. That should tell you a lot about the people you're taking input from. But you do you, with or without your banana.
In all seriousness though, I'm not promoting any sort of "tactical timmy" bs, even if I did let j-moose know what I thought of his dumb claims. (and face it, he was trolling for a reaction anyway.) I'm just saying that this recent idea of iron backups being obsolete or outdated is stupid and ignorant, because nothing's changed about the reasons for using them. It's just an idea being promoted by people who don't know any better and/or have the wrong priorities in mind. There aren't any good reasons not to use them for a carry gun, but there are a whole list of reasons why they help, and those reasons are just as relevant now as they were 10 years ago.
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So you are the local range brass goblin?I love the minimal effort 7-10 yard goals. You're really making some achievements there, lol. Why are you even wanting a red dot?
Between you and the two goobers you're listening to, y'all have quite the tard sandwich going on. I don't know the other gamer kid, but last time we discussed red dots 308pirate thought co-witnessed irons meant you have to line up the irons with the dot to aim. That should tell you a lot about the people you're taking input from. But you do you, with or without your banana.
In all seriousness though, I'm not promoting any sort of "tactical timmy" bs, even if I did let j-moose know what I thought of his dumb claims. (and face it, he was trolling for a reaction anyway.) I'm just saying that this recent idea of iron backups being obsolete or outdated is stupid and ignorant, because nothing's changed about the reasons for using them. It's just an idea being promoted by people who don't know any better and/or have the wrong priorities in mind. There aren't any good reasons not to use them for a carry gun, but there are a whole list of reasons why they help, and those reasons are just as relevant now as they were 10 years ago.
Say what now? What part of anything I said would lead you to that?
Maybe you mean something different by it, but around here that would be the meth heads or the cheapskate old guys stealing everyone's brass. I've known a couple of those old guys, usually the type who quote things like "average gunfight distance is 5 yards" and carry FMJ to save a few cents. Not sure if you've actually read anything I said but I've been advocating the opposite of that mentality - spending a little more to do things better and be a little more capable than the next guy.
If your intent was to insult me, you might want to work on that. Try something a little more relevant and on target; that last one wasn't even in the 5 ring. Besides, I don't even go to public ranges except for competition; got my own property to shoot on.
Honestly bud I'm just entertained that your ripping of paragraphs at 317am. Thank you for allowing us to bask in the glow of your knowledge.
What got me to really thinking about this was when I was sitting in Church a few weeks back. From where I sit to the door into the Church is 44 big paces. I went home and skinned my pistol to zap a mini ispc target at that distance (yes @Yondering some of us also shoot from home without trying to swing our nuts around) and my sights just arnt as sharp as they need to be. I could drill center mass pretty decent, but the head was out of the question. It's time to face the music and learn a new trick to stay capable at that kind of distance.. hence here we are.
This thread has been super helpful selecting a mounting method and an optic, from here it's an issue of putting the rounds down range to change the muscle memory from irons to dot. I'll do a follow up thread with a running review on the RMRHD, I have high hopes for it.
This thread has been super helpful selecting a mounting method and an optic, from here it's an issue of putting the rounds down range to change the muscle memory from irons to dot. I'll do a follow up thread with a running review on the RMRHD, I have high hopes for it.
How do you like that TLR VIR-2?
I've got one of the older TLR 2s that is vis light and IR laser, for what it is it works damn well. I have it mounted on a 22 with a can, had killed a pile of rodents messing with the chicken coop or cattle feed. Some lume would be nice tho.
i don't know what the current consensus is but using a handgun under nods is awesome
the tlr vir2 works well , the only small gripe i have with it is you can't use the ir laser without the illuminator
i would say the pistol setup would depend on what your using it for under nods. for pig hunting/hunting an ir laser and illuminator with a red dot on top would be tits. for a more general use a high candella white light with a good red dot is my preference , basically my day carry
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I shot with a TOR- Mini under a G17 every once in a while. It was ok, I’d rather shoot carbine under nods through. Just my personal preference, but it is pretty neat. The mounting clamp ended up breaking, so had it replaced and then sold the new one. More of a novelty for me.
Surefire XVL-2 if you’re being serious about it.
Tritium night sights should be avoided if doing NV as they can bloom pretty badly.
If using a dot with an NV setting for passive aim, light transmission through the glass trumps most other considerations. Which is why the DPP NV was mentioned earlier in the thread, thinner higher transmission glass results in less of a “haze” from imperfections in the glass that are completely invisible under daylight/white light conditions
Yeah I usually never do tritium but on my next project I had to use a Ed Brown precut slide and I’m forced to use the Trijicon RMR plate and tritium sight combo so I’ll just black sharpie the vials.
It’s a RMR footprint so it’ll have to be SRO or 507Comp.
I already own a SRO so I was thinking of getting a 507Comp and put on which ever has the better transmission.
Gun is back and set up. Mod 1 did a great job, I asked them to just hit the machined area with black because well it’s covered by an optic who cares. Door to door right at 2 weeks, the vast majority of the time it was in transit, 10/10 will do business with them again.
Initial impressions of the rmrhd are that this thing is wicked cool. The auto brightness adjustment is FAST. Hit the light and boom it’s super bright, kill it and it’s almost instantly dim. I’m impressed. The larger window is nice, just a few dozen draws and I’m feeling like this won’t be a super big deal to pick up.
As promised I fully intend to shoot this with a banana as a front sight, optic turned off…you know for science.
I’ll get it zeroed and start a running review of the optic in another thread. Thank you all for the input, tips and suggestions. I do really really like the clean sight picture with the plain black front and reticle.
I’ll get it zeroed and start a running review of the optic in another thread. Thank you all for the input, tips and suggestions. I do really really like the clean sight picture with the plain black front and reticle.
