Reloading for AR-10 advice needed

[HAZORD]

I just picked up a great DPMS SASS heavy barrel 308, 18 inch 1/10 twist. I'm looking for suggestions regarding reloading for it. I have some commercial Winchester virgin brass, and some of the Lake City pulled primed brass. I also have a couple of M1A's so I'm familiar with reloading for those rifles as there is a wealth of info about those for service rifle etc. I plan to put an adjustable gas block on the AR-10 for use with a Surefire suppressor as soon as the ATF gets off its ass.

I have plenty of IMR4895, some 4064 and some 3031, and a supply of 168 and 175 gr SMK bullets, but I'm open to using other powders and bullets, and I've read that you can use heavier bullets than what you would normally run in an M14. I've also read that its advised to load about the same velocity loads as with an M14 for consistency and to go easy on the rifle.

So, I'm asking if there are any specifics for reloading for AR-10 versus M14? What loads are working for you guys? I'm leaning towards Redding bushing dies, but wondering if I need just a full length version, or a small base, or what exactly? Also, can you get more reloads out of brass fired in an AR-10 than you do with an M-14? The whole AR-10 platform is new to me.

Thanks in advance, John

 

[pmclaine]

There are a few good posts on here concerning performing an optimum charge weight test to find a load specific to your barrel.

There is another recent thread about cloning Fed Gold Medal Match. From that thread you will get strong support for using 4064.

I havent loaded .308 yet but plan to tool over to it sometime in the coming months. I have 8 pounds of 4064, some Varget, some CFE223, 8208XBR, and TAC to play with.

If reading means anything Im guessing plus/minus 43.3 of 4064 will be a promising load.

Edit - If you peruse the 100 yard shoot out threads you will see many rifles with many loads and get an idea of what has worked in others .308 AR.

 

[dmike]

John,

I don't have any good advice but I'm currently going through load development with two AR-10 platforms, a POF P308 (14.5" 1/10) and a GAP-10 (18" 1/10). I use the 20LR PMAGS, so far on the POF I've tried COAL from 2.61-2.8 and on the GAP I've been 2.79 to 2.81. No issues with mag fit or rifle function.

I have the basic Lee die set (not SB). I polished the inside of the FL because I was getting some galling with cleaned, lubed GMM brass. Once I shoot the brass I anneal and just neck size, I am not crazy about the Lee collet neck die (polished and oiled the collet) but it's the first neck sizer I've had so maybe that's just how they are. I am getting ok use out of the brass, at least 5x and often more. I have Lapua but I'm saving it for when I know what I'm doing.

I have Norma 202, 3031, a little Varget for a rainy day. 202 was what was available so I'm using that on the GAP with 178 AMAXs and 175 SMKs. I started with some AA2495 from my buddy and got under half MOA pretty easily, the 202 seems to be working okay (lots of sub-moa loads with the AMAX, some with the SMKs) but now I'm working on seating depth. When I tried to seat into the lands or minimize jump my groups seemed to get worse so the next time out I'm working the jump to see what it likes, I think it might end up being around 2.79 COAL with the 178s and I am expecting to get to around 0.4 MOA. I have a mic so if I find a good ogive depth I'll try to copy it with the 175s.

The POF is a different story, I've tried all kinds of factory loads and weights and on a good day it's usually 1.2-2.5 MOA (factory). So I use mostly NATO brass for that (or the Federal GMMs after a few cycles in the GAP) and I'm using up the 3031 on it. I think 3031 is faster so I'm trying lighter bullets, managed to get 0.8 MOA with Lapua Scenar 155s (not sure if it's repeatable) but now I'm on Speer Varmint HP 130s and it looks promising with some loads giving 0.6 MOA so we'll see. Sometimes I neck size, sometimes FL for the POF...still trying to figure out what works.

I'll be interested to hear what works for you in the SASS...

 

[The Lawn Ranger]

I always liked the 155 Scenars in my 308 ar as you could run them faster.

I used RL15 and got good vel/accuracy to 1000 yds.

Here is a PDF of reloading recos from Jon Paul at JP Enterprises:

http://www.jprifles.com/document_pdfs/Loading recommendation_560.pdf

 

[whytlotus]

I run 40grs. of AA2460 and WLR primer behind a 168gr hpbt w/c in my Armalite AR10A2. The 2460 reliably and accurately meters on a progressive press. Also will be trying IMR8208 for it's stability in all weather conditions. These Powders are 84 & 85 on the burn rate chart.

 

[mtrmn]

My UTILITY load is a Widener's 145 gr FMJ over 42 gr IMR4895 or TAC--take your pick. Using CCI #34 mil primers and mixed brass-mostly LC.

 

[HAZORD]

Hey guys, thanks so far. The Lawn Ranger, thanks for that Pdf file! That doc is a wealth of information. I'm going to check out the 100 yd. shoot-out thread and see what people are listing there for loads.

If there is anyone out there that loads for both M14 and AR-10 and knows of any differences, I would sure like to hear the specifics. It appears that people are using a much wider variety of bullets in the AR-10, but I'm still wondering about small base versus full length standard dies.

 

[Thumper580]

Try Winch brass with 41.3gr of 4064 with the 175smk. Shoots great in my DPMS LR308.

 

[Scoby]

I'm loading 43.3 grs of IMR 4064 with a 168 gr SMK.
Very good performance out of my LMT MWS.
I can get .75 MOA out of it but, 1.0 or 1.25 MOA is the norm.

 

[HAZORD]

Thanks guys. What kind of dies are you using? I don't want to overwork the brass, but I do want them to chamber every time.

 

[White Mamba]

I've been using 44.2Varget, 178amax and having great results in federal brass through my 18". I use a Dillon FL and a Redding seater

 

[HAZORD]

Thanks for the info. I appreciate all the shared acquired knowledge.

 

[Warbone]

Ive had a dpms sass for about a year now, and love the rifle. My favorite load for it is 44.3g rl15 with either 178g amax or 175g smk. RL15 is almost impossibe to get right now so i switched to 4064. 42.6g 4064 with 178g amax or 175g smk in win brass is working great for me. I also run 43.5g 4064 and 168g hornady hpbt in LC brass. All these loads shoot under 1moa for me.
Please work up to these loads to make sure they are safe in your gun.

 

[dmike]

Thanks guys. What kind of dies are you using? I don't want to overwork the brass, but I do want them to chamber every time.

John, are you going with regular or are you still thinking about SB?

 

[CajunAR]

I've been running 43.5 gr Varget under 178Amax, in Federal or Lapua brass in my SASS for about 1.5 years. Shoots great for me. I am getting anywhere from 2480-2550ish out of it. I could probably clean up that spread a bit by weighing more (only every 10 once set) or getting a better scale setup, but this round has worked just fine for me out to 600.

As far as dies go, i've been running the regular FL RCBS dies. I had bought the Hornady New Dimension ones and they just seemed way too tight to resize (i was working the arm MUCH harder with the Hornady's vs the RCBS') so i switched back to the RCBS and have no complaints.

This round is technically over max according to a few manuals so please start lower and work up to what works for you.

 

[HAZORD]

I haven't made a final decision on a die yet. I want to go with Redding S Bushing die, either a FL or a SB-FL. I want to minimize the brass working and there is no point in wearing out my arm if I don't need to. I just want to make sure they chamber 100 % of the time. I've spoken to one buddy that reloads for AR-10 and he uses a SB die. I'm going to ask another one what he is using.

 

[pmclaine]

I haven't made a final decision on a die yet. I want to go with Redding S Bushing die, either a FL or a SB-FL. I want to minimize the brass working and there is no point in wearing out my arm if I don't need to. I just want to make sure they chamber 100 % of the time. I've spoken to one buddy that reloads for AR-10 and he uses a SB die. I'm going to ask another one what he is using.

I use Dillon dies. They are not advertised as SB but are reported to be "tight" when sizing brass. Regardless I set up using a Hornady headspace gauge to minimize working the brass. Ive loaded 30-06 and .223 for bolt and semi without feeding issues.

Recommendation/mods I will suggest - Loading with a micrometer seating die is great. I use a Forster Micrometer seater. I use Sinclair lock rings with a set screw on those dies I want to carefully adjust - ie size die. Without being able to lock the ring to the die adjustment is a PITA.

If you set your die up off of your own fired brass I wouldnt expect you to have any feeding issues and SB will not be necessary.

 

[mtrmn]

My dies are RCBS X-dies, Small base. A couple of my ARs demand the use of small base dies for 100% reliability, so I use them for all. I have not found them to over-work brass any more than standard FL dies, contrary to popular opinion. I want all my ammo to function 100% in all my guns, so the only segregated ammo is strictly for accuracy/ bench use.

 

[dmike]

Aside from the brass work, is there any accuracy disadvantage with going SB? And pmclaine, if I'm running the shell holder up to touch the die do I need lock rings? Are you trying to just neck size in the FL and that's why you have a specific depth to hit? Seems like the only variable adjustment would be the seating die, everything else you just run the shell holder up to the die body? thanks for the Forster tip I thought Redding was the only option for mic seating.

 

[pmclaine]

And pmclaine, if I'm running the shell holder up to touch the die do I need lock rings? Are you trying to just neck size in the FL and that's why you have a specific depth to hit? Seems like the only variable adjustment would be the seating die, everything else you just run the shell holder up to the die body? thanks for the Forster tip I thought Redding was the only option for mic seating.

If your goal is SHTF ammo or it is ammo that may be used in many guns and you want it to chamber all the time you can set the size die as you suggest.

Im only loading for one rifle hoping to gain a little accuracy advantage and I want to maximize the life of my brass so Im sizing specific to my chamber using a hornady headspace gauge. My dies end up being a good bit off the shell plate when set up.

I bump the shoulder about .003 to .005 from its fire state. Reality my AR has not had an issue at .002. I am moving the shoulder, its not a neck size only setup. Im just moving the shoulder the minimal amount for my gun.

If your just getting into reloading you may want to hold off on concerning yourself with minimizing shoulder bump right now. If you are using a drop in case gauge you should be good. The only other concern would be oversizing to such an extreme you risk case head seperation. You would probably break your press overcamming to that extent and if your brass is in good shape it will hold up you just may not get as much life out of it.

I like the Forster seater as the mic head is bigger/easier to read with more space between markings. Great service from Forster if you have questions. I ran into a pproblem loading 30-06 on my S1050 as the press doesnt have enough clearance to use this seater with the long cartridges. Forster helped me convert my 30-06 seater to .308 gratis so I can get some use out of their product.

 

[dmike]

If your goal is SHTF ammo or it is ammo that may be used in many guns and you want it to chamber all the time you can set the size die as you suggest.

Im only loading for one rifle hoping to gain a little accuracy advantage and I want to maximize the life of my brass so Im sizing specific to my chamber using a hornady headspace gauge. My dies end up being a good bit off the shell plate when set up.

I bump the shoulder about .003 to .005 from its fire state. Reality my AR has not had an issue at .002. I am moving the shoulder, its not a neck size only setup. Im just moving the shoulder the minimal amount for my gun.

If your just getting into reloading you may want to hold off on concerning yourself with minimizing shoulder bump right now. If you are using a drop in case gauge you should be good. The only other concern would be oversizing to such an extreme you risk case head seperation. You would probably break your press overcamming to that extent and if your brass is in good shape it will hold up you just may not get as much life out of it.

I like the Forster seater as the mic head is bigger/easier to read with more space between markings. Great service from Forster if you have questions. I ran into a pproblem loading 30-06 on my S1050 as the press doesnt have enough clearance to use this seater with the long cartridges. Forster helped me convert my 30-06 seater to .308 gratis so I can get some use out of their product.

Very educational, thank you. I thought that by segregating brass for each AR-10, fire-forming/neck sizing I would be fine but you got me reading and it sounds like it's smarter to always bump at a minimum (with a lot of guys saying ALWAYS FL). Think I'm going to pick up the forster set, ultra mic seater with bushing bump neck (3 bushings) then keep my polished lee for FL.

I have a wilson drop-in but didn't know about the actual caliper hs gauge, I am going to pick one up asap. I do want accuracy so I need to pay more attention.

Also, how would I risk oversizing by overcamming in the bottomed out FL? Rockchucker and I do put some force on it with decent lube so now you've got me worried. Doesn't the shellholder stop me at the internal dimensions of the die or is it more complicated than that? I am hoping to never experience case head seperation.

Thanks for squaring me away.

 

[HAZORD]

It has been mentioned that to set the die, you just run the shellholder up against it. That is the old school way which can get you in trouble if your dies are too long, or shellholder too tall. In reality, to get a .003 shoulder bump, you need to have a caliper and attachments to measure the shoulder length on your fired brass, so you know how much to bump it. You can also use a Wilson case gage, but the digital caliper with attachments is more precise.

 

[pmclaine]

Very educational, thank you. I thought that by segregating brass for each AR-10, fire-forming/neck sizing I would be fine but you got me reading and it sounds like it's smarter to always bump at a minimum (with a lot of guys saying ALWAYS FL). Think I'm going to pick up the forster set, ultra mic seater with bushing bump neck (3 bushings) then keep my polished lee for FL.

I have a wilson drop-in but didn't know about the actual caliper hs gauge, I am going to pick one up asap. I do want accuracy so I need to pay more attention.

Also, how would I risk oversizing by overcamming in the bottomed out FL? Rockchucker and I do put some force on it with decent lube so now you've got me worried. Doesn't the shellholder stop me at the internal dimensions of the die or is it more complicated than that? I am hoping to never experience case head seperation.

Thanks for squaring me away.

Sir what I do is FL resizing. I took ten cases fired in my rifle and measured them on the Hornady Headspace gauge. I averaged the post fire size of my cases and subtracted .003 to .005 to get my desired headspace for a post sized cartridge. Set the FL die so that your cases fall within that .003-.005 range. I squeezed down closer to the .003 and will sometimes have a cartridge spec'd in the .002 range but they all seem to chamber fine. There are many reloaders out there that think a sized cartridge should swim inside the chamber of an AR and they get batter accuracy that way. I don't disagree with their findings and they have more experience/better ability than me. What I do is what I do. Im willing to change immediately when better technique/info comes along.

You will find just about nobody neck sizes for an AR. Relaoding for a bolt gun and an AR/M1A/M1 Garand/any semi auto are two different animals. Some may use a neck bushing FL die to get a desired neck tension but I haven't gone there. I trim with a Dillon RT1200 and that trim/size die gives a pretty tight neck. Your main concern about the neck is that through the violence of autoloading your cartridges do not suffer bullet setback nor should you reach your last round in a full mag and find out recoil has made it a thou or two longer. A consistent not too tight and not too loose is your goal.

The Wilson drop in gauges are good to QC check a finished round but I prefer knowing a specific number related to what Im doing. The Hornady Headspace gauge gives me a real number to understand what the size die does to my cartridge. RCBS headspace micrometers are the next best thing but they are caliber specific and the only give you a number based off a zero reading ie you don't know the cartridge is exactly 2.251 (a made up number) like you would with the Hornady you only know that your cartridge is now +/- some thousands from where you started.

You would have difficulty oversizing to the point of imminent failure without breaking the press. This statement made with the caveat that the brass and the chamber are in spec. If you have a chamber getting to the point of excessive headspace than size your cartridges excessively I guess the tolerance stacking could create an imminent threat of case head separation. Your brass life will suffer from oversizing. Learn to check for case head separation with a paperclip or tool of some sort.

Thank you for your questions. I think anyone that reloads wants to see you succeed and do so safely. Keep asking people even if you think a question stupid and read as much as you can from as many different sources as you can. Ive been into this for about three years and I read for about two years prior to that while I saved money to get tooled up. There are people out there that have forgot more than I know.

 

[Helidriver]

I always liked the 155 Scenars in my 308 ar as you could run them faster.

I used RL15 and got good vel/accuracy to 1000 yds.

Here is a PDF of reloading recos from Jon Paul at JP Enterprises:

http://www.jprifles.com/document_pdfs/Loading recommendation_560.pdf

That was a great article. One issue I have with it is the recommendation of the Fed 210M primer. I've always been told that primer is too sensitive for free floating gas guns. Sad because I have 5000 of them for my bolt guns and would like to use them. I've been wanting to shoot more gas lately but getting primers is a bugger right now. JP is pretty reputable so maybe I've been mislead on this. Anyone using them?

 

[HAZORD]

Thanks for all the info so far. I do have the Hornady headspace attachments for my digital caliper, and I am intending to measure fired cases and bump the shoulder back .003 or close. I will be checking how well they fall into the chamber and my Wilson case gage.

I spoke with my second friend that has an AR-10 platform. and he is also using small base dies to reload for his rifle. He also suggested polishing my chamber to increase successful chambering.

 

[dmike]

You will find just about nobody neck sizes for an AR.

pmclaine, great info. Wish THAT was in the Lee die pamphlet that came with the Deluxe Rifle Die Set...instead it says this:

"There simply is no better, or more accurate way to reload rifle ammunition than with the LEE COLLET NECK SIZING DIE. If you are an experienced reloader, forget everything you know about die adjustment and follow the instructions. You will be rewarded with the best, most accurate cases you've ever reloaded. The collet die provides the optimum bullet fit for maximum accuracy and case life."

And that kit also has a full length size die so they're not just trying to promote the collet neck sizer, they're saying it's a better way than full length sizing. I didn't know AR's were different, I've been trying to work up loads with neck sizing for months now so thanks for setting me straight.

 

[pmclaine]

pmclaine, great info. Wish THAT was in the Lee die pamphlet that came with the Deluxe Rifle Die Set...instead it says this:

"There simply is no better, or more accurate way to reload rifle ammunition than with the LEE COLLET NECK SIZING DIE. If you are an experienced reloader, forget everything you know about die adjustment and follow the instructions. You will be rewarded with the best, most accurate cases you've ever reloaded. The collet die provides the optimum bullet fit for maximum accuracy and case life."

And that kit also has a full length size die so they're not just trying to promote the collet neck sizer, they're saying it's a better way than full length sizing. I didn't know AR's were different, I've been trying to work up loads with neck sizing for months now so thanks for setting me straight.

There is no harm in doing it as long as you are still FL sizing.

For bolt guns reloaders looking for accuracy want there cases totally fire formed to the chamber. They only neck size. They do not bump the shoulder until after a few firings when the cases get sticky in the chamber.

For AR you need to have the cases set back at the shoulder for reliability in chambering.

My reloading plan is happy with the neck tension my FL size die provides. There are many ways to skin a cat and others feel the need to adjust neck tension with either a mandrel type die (expand to size) or a bushing type die (squeeze to size).

If just starting out in this keep it simple and see what accuracy you get with your FL die only.

 

[elfster1234]

http://www.snipershide.com/[email protected]

I just picked up a great DPMS SASS heavy barrel 308, 18 inch 1/10 twist. I'm looking for suggestions regarding reloading for it. I have some commercial Winchester virgin brass, and some of the Lake City pulled primed brass. I also have a couple of M1A's so I'm familiar with reloading for those rifles as there is a wealth of info about those for service rifle etc. I plan to put an adjustable gas block on the AR-10 for use with a Surefire suppressor as soon as the ATF gets off its ass.

I have plenty of IMR4895, some 4064 and some 3031, and a supply of 168 and 175 gr SMK bullets, but I'm open to using other powders and bullets, and I've read that you can use heavier bullets than what you would normally run in an M14. I've also read that its advised to load about the same velocity loads as with an M14 for consistency and to go easy on the rifle.

So, I'm asking if there are any specifics for reloading for AR-10 versus M14? What loads are working for you guys? I'm leaning towards Redding bushing dies, but wondering if I need just a full length version, or a small base, or what exactly? Also, can you get more reloads out of brass fired in an AR-10 than you do with an M-14? The whole AR-10 platform is new to me.

Thanks in advance, John

 

[stockdoc]

Neck sizing is not to be used with semiauto rifles with floating firing pins such as the ar platforms, m14/m1a, garands. To do so is an invitation to disaster. Use a case headspace gauge to set up the dies and youre good to go. I think they are about 20 bucks through dillon precision. Cheap insurance to keep you and your rifle safe.

Some dies have very close tolerances and if you set them touching the shell holder you could over size the case hereby creating an excessive headspace issue.

Also stay away from federal primers for the semis. They are known to be pretty sensitive. Use cci arsenal primers or standard. Winchester primers also have pretty tough cups.

I also use the dillon trimmer set up. However I also have a lyman "m" die set on the last station in my 650 to expand the neck. Since the trimmer cannot have an expander ball necks come out way under size and need to be brought back to the proper dimention.

And last but not least try and read a loading manual from any of the major players in the industry. Cover to cover. Everything you need to know, want to know, and then some, is in those pages


Hope this helps

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

I just picked up a great DPMS SASS heavy barrel 308, 18 inch 1/10 twist. I'm looking for suggestions regarding reloading for it. I have some commercial Winchester virgin brass, and some of the Lake City pulled primed brass. I also have a couple of M1A's so I'm familiar with reloading for those rifles as there is a wealth of info about those for service rifle etc. I plan to put an adjustable gas block on the AR-10 for use with a Surefire suppressor as soon as the ATF gets off its ass.

I have plenty of IMR4895, some 4064 and some 3031, and a supply of 168 and 175 gr SMK bullets, but I'm open to using other powders and bullets, and I've read that you can use heavier bullets than what you would normally run in an M14. I've also read that its advised to load about the same velocity loads as with an M14 for consistency and to go easy on the rifle.

So, I'm asking if there are any specifics for reloading for AR-10 versus M14? What loads are working for you guys? I'm leaning towards Redding bushing dies, but wondering if I need just a full length version, or a small base, or what exactly? Also, can you get more reloads out of brass fired in an AR-10 than you do with an M-14? The whole AR-10 platform is new to me.

Thanks in advance, John

HAZORD,

I did not read through all the replies you've gotten thus far, but I will give you my take.

1. I load for an M1A (Custom Supermatch) and two "AR-10s" (DPMS 308s) and shoot competitively with both.
2. Contrary to popular beliefs, both platforms can and do handle full power loads well.
3. As an addendum to item #2, the M1A is sensitive to powder selection...large doses of slow-burning powder and heavy bullets (think RL-17 + 208AMAX for instance) is a recipe for shortening the life of the op-rod.
4. The AR-10 is almost impervious to powder selection...the AR-10 will "eat" the load above and ask for more.


With those few items addressed, lemme address the questions you asked.

1. I have both SB dies and FL dies and use them interchangeably....You will not be able to shoot the accuracy difference if there is one.
2. The M1A is waaaay harder on brass than the AR-10. I've gotten up to 10 firing outta my brass (mostly LC) in my AR-10. The M1A, i'd toss them after 4.
3. I've lucked out with my accuracy nodes...what's worked in my AR-10s have worked in my M1A...I'll share some loads w u

175SMK
40.7gr AR-comp
LC or Win Brass
2.80" COAL
WLRP/Tula LRP

175SMK
41.4gr AR-Comp
LC or Win Brass
2.80: COAL
WLRP/Tula LRP

175SMK
44.2/44.7 gr Varget
LC or Win Brass
2.80 COAL
WLRP/Tula LRP

175 SMK
47.5gr 2000MR
LC or Win Brass
2.80
WLRP/Tula LRP

I don't do reduced loads, I shoot the same loads in practice as i do in matches...that way i don't have to remember multiple zeros or compensate more or less than in match conditions.

If you have more specific questions, don't hesitate to ask.