Remington, 2nd Largest Gunmaker Nears Default

[cottonant]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...rms-post-obama


Excerpt:

As Philly.com's Joseph DiStefano reports, S&P cut the company’s corporate credit rating - already at a junk-bond-level CCC+ - two full notches, to CCC- as:

...a backlog of unsold, unwanted firearms will force Remington to operate at a loss and “pressure the company’s sales and profitability at least through early 2018, resulting in insufficient cash flow for debt service and fixed charges,” unless Remington gives up cash to pay for ongoing operations.



S&P expects “a heightened risk of a restructuring” of Remington’s $575 million senior secured loan and asset-based lending facility, which it is supposed to pay back in 2019.



If Remington defaults on its payments, based on the company’s current value, S&P expects first-lien creditors may receive around 35 cents back from every dollar they have lent or invested. Lower-rated creditors would get back less, or nothing.​

 

[SubOptimal]

Consistent mis management, failure to upgrade production facilities for both rifles and ammo (their core products), decline in quality control, mistakes in the pistol realm and equal or better quality by there primary competition in all aspects. What did you expect?
There was a time when the serious shooter/hunter made a choice between a Remington 700 or a Winchester model 70 for his rifle. A few went with the newer Ruger rifles or classic Mausers, Enfields or the like. The Europeans caught on quick and offered better quality at a not too much higher price point and made with newer equipment.
Custom manufacturers copied the Remington 700 action and pretty much stole the precision game right out from under Remington's nose. Remington countered with a couple of precision rifles of their own but they pretty much failed to live up to the hype and the cheap stocks and again, poor fitment ,let the serious shooter down.
Ruger, meanwhile, followed customer demand and produced an entire range of rifles at reasonable prices that performed on par with the earlier Remingtons. Even the vererable 870 and 1100 series of shotguns have suffered in the face of competition from the Italians and the Turkish firms. Wing shooters abound and skeet and trap are still very popular in the US. What did Remington do but drop the only entry in those sports that had some appeal to the trap shooters, the clunky 3200. It was far from the best of the over and unders but at least it was durable.
I have two precision rifles that have actions that are based on the Remington design and benefit from the aftermarket parts available as a result of Remington's long time leadership. The actions are made by Pierce and Surgeon. The quality is so far ahead of what Remington produces that there is no sense in calling them the same gun. Granted, the bare actions cost twice what a complete gun coming from Remington would ($1300 from Pierce and $1150 from Surgeon) but I wlll likely die before either of these guns even begin to show wear and I shoot, a lot.

 

[B-P-UU]

To not be able to run a profitable ammo/firearms company for the past decade considering the political climate requires a black belt in mismanagement and incompetence.

 

[Supersubes]

To not be able to run a profitable ammo/firearms company for the past decade considering the political climate requires a black belt in mismanagement and incompetence.

Lol.


We always kinda knew that about them though, didnt we?

 

[Yoteski]

To not be able to run a profitable ammo/firearms company for the past decade considering the political climate requires a black belt in mismanagement and incompetence.

No kidding. Sat on their asses raking in their mil and leo contracts with zero innovation for the civilian sports shooters. Colt 2.0.

 

[BurnOut]

In all honesty, aside from aftermarket support, what does an off-the-shelf 700 SPS offer that isn't offered by something like the Ruger American at a fraction of the price? Or even some of the Mossberg bolt guns?

For the average shooter out there, the 700 offers a terrible bang-for-the-buck (if you'll pardon the pun), and that has been the case for quite some time; it seems that the market at large has finally caught on to that. Ask IBM and General Motors what happens when you get cocky and rest on your laurels, depending on your market share for too long. I predict that Leupold will end up in this same boat, because they seem to have the same business plan.

Given the features and quality involved, a 700 SPS would be a fair deal for the consumer at $375-$400... but they're often priced at $550+, and there's just no reason for that. Remington is now past the point where they could have simply gotten away with matching their competition's price/quality/features; they're going to have to demonstrably BETTER their competitors if they want to win back any of the market share they've lost.

 

[broke_again]

If you are not innovating, you are getting left behind. Remington hasn't brought anything that great to the market in years.

I would rather buy a Tikka T-3 as an entry level hunting rifle than anything Remington

They would make an excellent case study in mismanagement for a business class.

 

[308pirate]

LOL they're a joke and so are their products.

 

[Sniperwannabee]

Tikka, ruger, howa all much better bang for the buck

 

[Ledzep]

If you're going to do the same thing and not innovate, you should at least do it good.

 

[TheGerman]

EL OH EL

And they tried to rationalize it with 'people are buying less firearms'. No morons, we're not buying YOUR shit.

Between the laughable fall in quality of your bolt guns, shotguns and actions, to your fraud level of bullshit pistols you sell, there shouldn't be much of a question as to what the problem is.

Your ammo is shit. Your pistols are shit. Your actions/bolt guns are shit. Your products are shit. Freedom Group is shit.

 

[Graywolf.260]

Your ammo is shit. Your pistols are shit. Your actions/bolt guns are shit. Your products are shit. Freedom Group is shit.

How do you really feel about them?

this is the guy who controls Cerberus and Remington
http://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-wants-jewish-billionaire-to-vet-spy-agencies-report/

 

[snorkygunner]

Economic Darwinism in action.

I was at the gun counter in our exchange today when an O-6 came up next to me and asked the attendant to order a gen 2 R51 for him. I couldn't help but cringe.

 

[vh20]

A lot of people here are talking about R's lack of innovation and failing to keep up with customer's wants in new designs as being their downfall. While that certainly can't help, I submit their biggest downfall is their abysmal decline in quality of their core products. I can't speak for the current 700s because I haven't run one, but if you compare their current 1100s, 11-87s, 870s to the ones they made back in the 70s and 80s, it makes you want to cry. They've built way over 10 million 870s, so they KNOW HOW to do it. There was a time when it was about the most reliable firearm of any type you could buy. But today, EVERY one I've seen won't run a box of shells without some type of FTE, etc. They feel like junk when you cycle one, and the fit and finish is embarrassing. We Remington fans used to laugh at "Mossberg crap" but I think even the old Mossbergs were better than the stuff Remington is putting out lately. Personally, those classic shotguns (and the 700s, too) are such icons, I believe if they had JUST kept building them to the same standard they used to, they could survive because brand-loyalty will get you a long way as long as you keep up your end of the deal (quality). I've been of the mind for the past several years that the group that owns them now is doing the "vulture capitalism" thing, scraping every dime of profit they can extract out it while intentionally sacrificing the brand and the company, and purposefully driving it right into the ground without a penny left in it.

 

[Dirty D]

I recently picked up a Remington 700 because it was too cheap to pass up and the action on my Stevens 200 is smoother than the Remington. I hope they default and shitcan the entire management team and start over, a new team can't do much worse.

 

[_Windrider_]

A lot of people here are talking about R's lack of innovation and failing to keep up with customer's wants in new designs as being their downfall. While that certainly can't help, I submit their biggest downfall is their abysmal decline in quality of their core products. I can't speak for the current 700s because I haven't run one, but if you compare their current 1100s, 11-87s, 870s to the ones they made back in the 70s and 80s, it makes you want to cry. They've built way over 10 million 870s, so they KNOW HOW to do it. There was a time when it was about the most reliable firearm of any type you could buy. But today, EVERY one I've seen won't run a box of shells without some type of FTE, etc. They feel like junk when you cycle one, and the fit and finish is embarrassing. We Remington fans used to laugh at "Mossberg crap" but I think even the old Mossbergs were better than the stuff Remington is putting out lately. Personally, those classic shotguns (and the 700s, too) are such icons, I believe if they had JUST kept building them to the same standard they used to, they could survive because brand-loyalty will get you a long way as long as you keep up your end of the deal (quality). I've been of the mind for the past several years that the group that owns them now is doing the "vulture capitalism" thing, scraping every dime of profit they can extract out it while intentionally sacrificing the brand and the company, and purposefully driving it right into the ground without a penny left in it.

You can guarantee that any company Cerberus is involved with will turn to shit. Vulture capitalists is the perfect term for this group of scumbags.

 

[1J04]

"WAS" one of thee biggest Remington fan boys ever. 700's n Field Masters. Haven't bought a Remington myself in yrs but have built off their actions. Made the mistake of steering 3 friends to 700's in the last couple yrs and every one of them were shit. 2 of them twice.
Absolute pieces of shit and embarrassed I was involved. New guy to the neighborhood wants to do what my friends n I do after escaping here from Californustan. Picked him out a Sako LR in 7MM. I'd recommend that gun again. Never a Remington ever again. What a damn shame. They're dead.

 

[ZiaHunter]

Several years ago bought a 700 CDL in 300 WSM. Damn thing wouldn't shoot and the black plastic forend broke off. Besides the chamber was so poorly cut fired brass would not cycle through the sizing die. Finally dropped it off with Score High Gunsmiths and told him to trash everything but the action. New Bartlein barrel, Jewell trigger, McM stock and had the action trued. Now it shoots like it should have in the first place. Such a shame.

 

[_Windrider_]

Several years ago bought a 700 CDL in 300 WSM. Damn thing wouldn't shoot and the black plastic forend broke off. Besides the chamber was so poorly cut fired brass would not cycle through the sizing die. Finally dropped it off with Score High Gunsmiths and told him to trash everything but the action. New Bartlein barrel, Jewell trigger, McM stock and had the action trued. Now it shoots like it should have in the first place. Such a shame.

I wish they would just sell the action for like 250. Treat em like an 80% AR lower and let us finish them.

 

[fdkay]

My first two guns were Remingtons.
A 580, single shot .22 that I paid for with paper route money. Cost a whopping 55 dollars, it was somewhere around 1974.
I also received as a gift for Christmas a Model 870 wingmaster in .410. It is a beautiful shotgun, again, somewhere around 74.
I have an 870 express that I bought about 20 years ago, very basic, but it works.
I have several 700's. The last one I bought at walmart and threw everything away except the action and bolt.
I bought a 5R mil-spec around 9 years ago that was a dandy, but things sure have gone down hill.
I have never liked the three piece bolt setup. If they would have at least made the bolt nose changeable like the Savage, I would have less heartache with it.
They have been fucking stuff up long before cerebrus.
From stupid shit like bringing out the 7-08 and the .260, two excellent cartridges, then not offering rifles worth a fuck for them.
Completely fucking up the 6.8 and NEVER supporting it.
Before my Dad passed, he wanted a single stack 9mm in the worst way. He bought a gen 2 R51. It is actually a neat little pistol.
I believe their 1911's are rebadged.

 

[308pirate]

Wing shooters abound and skeet and trap are still very popular in the US. What did Remington do but drop the only entry in those sports that had some appeal to the trap shooters, the clunky 3200. It was far from the best of the over and unders but at least it was durable.

The Remington 3200 was a piece of shit and nobody who is a serious clay shooter considers it a viable firearm.

Remington is a non-player in either skeet, trap, or sporting clays. The Italians and Germans have taken the mid range market. Kriegoff, Perazzi, and Kolar Arms dominate the top end of the market. Kolar is the only serious American gunmaker in the clay sports and their products are considered world class and every bit the equal of Krieghoff and Perazzi.

The basic Kolar shotgun will cost you easily twice what a fully custom PRS rifle + German glass will.

 

[niteshooter]

Remington's woes = self inflicted IMO. Kind of sucks because I like their line up and variety but if they aren't building them right what the hell are they even doing all day.
I remember 700's and 1100's from the 80's that ran hard and had reliability to be reckoned with.
I don't have a stake in the company and there's plenty of good gun makers today to fill the gaps. But it all reminds me of my old welder boss's favorite saying regarding QC and quality work. " Save a mans life hero for the day. Suck one dick, cocksucker for life."

 

[SubOptimal]

I'll agree on the 3200 being a POS. I had two of them and they were clunky and not worth the money they sold for. I'll agree on the price of the top end European shotguns. A trip to Shot Show and a visit to the Perazzi booth to drool over their high end guns in the $100K range, not to mention the models they had running around proved that. I had a Beretta SO4 that came close to the price range and a Fabbri trap gun that would come close to my entire gun collection in price.
A trip past the gun racks at any major trap shoot would scare an accountant shitless. The gold inlays alone would make a rap star jealous and the irony of seeing a ratty model 12 parked next to a sparkling Kreighoff with the owner of the model 12 all dressed in the latest from Orvis and the guy with the Kreighoff in a well worn set of farmer's overalls.

 

[NukeMMC]

Add to this the crap they pulled when buying Bushmaster in 2006 and moving the company, less most employees, to NY in 2011. They are getting a taste of the Karma they have been earning for a long time. Bushmaster founder Richard Dyke did one Hell of a job re-installing a firearms company at the old Bushmaster property he still owned and populating it with employees Remington left hanging in the breeze. Now they are called Windham Weaponry and I would buy from them in a heartbeat before I bought anything Remington or Bushmaster.

 

[WeiserBucks]

My old ladies 2015 Remmy 7-08 shoots 2-3 MOA with hand loads, guess she got a good one !

 

[mark5pt56]

Used to be when you saw someone with a 700, 870, 1100 or 1187, people were proud, interested, etc. No when I see people with them, I feel sorry for their ignorance. Sure-everyone has one that out shoots an AI, right from the box. Or the justification of how much they spent and who worked on it for them.

You know it's 2000 and f'ing 17 folks, get with the market and technology gains. Offer products such as the Q, CA MPR, Ruger Precision, Tikka Tac, Bergera, etc, etc. Of course you have to market as well for the Walmart fudds.

 

[Sportsman]

I still shoot an 870. It was a gift from my dad around 1982. Sad that 35 years later it's better than one new off the shelf.

 

[canezach]

I've owned Remingtons for years. The 700s from the 90s were great shooters. I have an 870 that has been incredibly reliable. With that said, I bought another 700 in 2012 or so because I wanted a rifle for my daughter. If it was just going to be a hunting rifle, it would've been fine, but side by side with my DTA, the difference was night and day. That was the first rifle I've ever needed to have blueprinted/trued/whatever. I'd already heard about the decline in quality, but I had to learn the hard way.

 

[_Windrider_]

I've owned Remingtons for years. The 700s from the 90s were great shooters. I have an 870 that has been incredibly reliable. With that said, I bought another 700 in 2012 or so because I wanted a rifle for my daughter. If it was just going to be a hunting rifle, it would've been fine, but side by side with my DTA, the difference was night and day. That was the first rifle I've ever needed to have blueprinted/trued/whatever. I'd already heard about the decline in quality, but I had to learn the hard way.

Comparing a DTA to a rem is a pointless effort. If u r going to compare rifles, they should at least be in the same price range.

 

[canezach]

Comparing a DTA to a rem is a pointless effort. If u r going to compare rifles, they should at least be in the same price range.

I realize that. Those just happened to be the two rifles I had at the range that day