Remington 700 Police Sniper Rifle ?

[Jw2184]

I've been issued an older Remington 700 Police Sniper Rifle in .308 shooting Federal Premium 168 grain Gold Medal Match Sierra Matchking BTHP. The Rifle has an Aurora 8010 Day/Night 2.5-10x56 on top. Rifle is a great shooter for sure but I haven't really had an opportunity to stretch it's legs as I'm only required to qualify at 100 yrds with it and the dept. was not allowing me to bring it home with me (where I can shoot 800 yrds behind my home) That has recently changed however.

I now have the opportunity to shoot this gun at some distance and am looking for some reliable data to get me started, I've found some stuff on line regarding bullet drop and MOA adjustments but I'm fairly limited on ammunition to just go out and start "playing" as my dept. is buying the ammo.

Anyone here have the same setup shooting the same ammunition that would be willing to share their data out to 1000 yards ? I know each rifle is different but would just like to compare what I have in hand to some of you guys who have some experience shooting this setup at some distance. Appreciate any help!

 

[_Windrider_]

Just go to JBM ballistics dot com and out in your stuff. It will get you a range card that will be really close and get you going.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

I would say do not waste your departments ammo and your time with shooting that setup at anything beyond 200yds.
Use that department ammo to train for actual scenarios/shots that you could be forced to take.
Ask your department to procure some barrier penetrating ammo and get your data on it through various car/home windows...something that can be useful to you and your department.
Slinging rounds at greater distance does neither of you any good for when the "Call" goes out.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[FatBoy]

I recommend you look up j-huskey and run this past him via PM. He's probably burned down more 308 barrels in these factory rifles than anyone on this board, with Terry Cross right there too.

Be prepared to give bona fidas.

@j-huskey
@Terry Cross


Personally, I wouldn't take the 168SMK past 700 yards. They are VERY accurate to 300M, which is what the Fed GMM was designed for. They do pretty well at 600 as well, but go trans-sonic between 700-850 yards depending on your DA and they don't handle going transonic well at all.

 

[j-huskey]

Theis has given you the absolute best advice you need to hear.

The scope you have is not repeatable up and down to distance and back to working distances. Trying to make it a long range scope is not in it's best interest.

The rifle might be capable depending on its condition. Several of ours were.

Different lots of fgm168 have made it to 1000 but way more have not. It's not recommended nor used by any professional outfit, LE or mil for those distances.

It sucks on one shot stops body hits at any distance unless it severs the spinal cord, and even that wont solve a problem below mid chest as the arms still work.

The only guaranteed stop is the brain pan, and if you cant hit that with enough energy to disrupt it, you still have a problem. That bullet past 100 yards can fail in that category.

And a one shot stop is your job.

Back to what @THEIS said.

 

[Old Justice]

It would help to get some information about the rifle/ammo combo, as well. Info like scope height, bullet velocity (as it comes out of the rifle, not just manufacturer spec sheet) is important to have if you are using a computer to build a dope card.

Also, where do you work? An inner city police department, or a rural county sheriff? Are you on SWAT? Full time of part time team, or is this part of a patrol based DMR program? How much training support do you have from your department for this?

I’ve always advocated “stretching your legs” on your rifle, shooting past your 100 yard quals. Problems with shooter/rifle/ammo sometimes don’t show or magnify until you start stretching the legs a bit.

I agree with THEIS, about the situation based training and how the bullet will perform outside of the barrel and handling barriers.

But, shooting at “longer” distances is needed. If you can become “proficient” with your weapon system at 400 yards, it will have a direct impact on your rifle manipulation/ability at 100 yards.

 

[j-huskey]

If you can put on full callout gear, run a half mile, drop into prone position and hit a 1" paster at 100 yards cold bore in 15 seconds from dropping into position, I would say try shooting further, if you cant, I would recommend you work very hard to achieve the above.

If you had been on my sniper teams, you didnt go operational until you could do that.
Its doable. Guys prove it regularly.

I am a proponent of stretching your legs as the above poster and i teach it, but, I am a bigger proponent of what I just typed above.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

I like training and improving on the 3 D's for LE work.

Duration--How long did it take you to get setup and lined up for the shot.

Distraction--How well can you focus OUT all the chaos that will be going on.

Distance--Self Explanatory

And like we do in K9 training...you can only change 1 at a time

Edited To Add:
I have seen guys that were blazing fast and setup, preparing and taking shot while at the gun range but add into the mix the sounds of screaming people, horns, news helicopters, etc etc and their accuracy goes down as the distractions go up.

I have seen guys that could focus OUT the second coming of Christ but you could build a replica of Noahs Arc in the time it took them to setup and prepare.

And all that is at 100m distance.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Jw2184]

Hi,

I would say do not waste your departments ammo and your time with shooting that setup at anything beyond 200yds.
Use that department ammo to train for actual scenarios/shots that you could be forced to take.
Ask your department to procure some barrier penetrating ammo and get your data on it through various car/home windows...something that can be useful to you and your department.
Slinging rounds at greater distance does neither of you any good for when the "Call" goes out.

Sincerely,
Theis

I would tend to agree with you for the most part Theis, however I also like to know my capabilities and Incapabilities for that matter. “A man needs to know his limitations”. This is the entire point of this thread. I do not have the luxury to play with this gun however i do have the opportunity now to explore a little with it and I want to take full advantage of this opportunity by getting as much data before I hit the range so I’m not wasting ammo. I would sure hate to one day have to make a shot further than 200 yards and not have at least had “some” experience with my rifle beyond that range.

 

[Jw2184]

It would help to get some information about the rifle/ammo combo, as well. Info like scope height, bullet velocity (as it comes out of the rifle, not just manufacturer spec sheet) is important to have if you are using a computer to build a dope card.

Also, where do you work? An inner city police department, or a rural county sheriff? Are you on SWAT? Full time of part time team, or is this part of a patrol based DMR program? How much training support do you have from your department for this?

I’ve always advocated “stretching your legs” on your rifle, shooting past your 100 yard quals. Problems with shooter/rifle/ammo sometimes don’t show or magnify until you start stretching the legs a bit.

I agree with THEIS, about the situation based training and how the bullet will perform outside of the barrel and handling barriers.

But, shooting at “longer” distances is needed. If you can become “proficient” with your weapon system at 400 yards, it will have a direct impact on your rifle manipulation/ability at 100 yards.

It would help to get some information about the rifle/ammo combo, as well. Info like scope height, bullet velocity (as it comes out of the rifle, not just manufacturer spec sheet) is important to have if you are using a computer to build a dope card.

Also, where do you work? An inner city police department, or a rural county sheriff? Are you on SWAT? Full time of part time team, or is this part of a patrol based DMR program? How much training support do you have from your department for this?

I’ve always advocated “stretching your legs” on your rifle, shooting past your 100 yard quals. Problems with shooter/rifle/ammo sometimes don’t show or magnify until you start stretching the legs a bit.

I agree with THEIS, about the situation based training and how the bullet will perform outside of the barrel and handling barriers.

But, shooting at “longer” distances is needed. If you can become “proficient” with your weapon system at 400 yards, it will have a direct impact on your rifle manipulation/ability at 100 yards.

Old justice,

 

[JS624]

I would tend to agree with you for the most part Theis, however I also like to know my capabilities and Incapabilities for that matter. “A man needs to know his limitations”. This is the entire point of this thread. I do not have the luxury to play with this gun however i do have the opportunity now to explore a little with it and I want to take full advantage of this opportunity by getting as much data before I hit the range so I’m not wasting ammo. I would sure hate to one day have to make a shot further than 200 yards and not have at least had “some” experience with my rifle beyond that range.

Here's my .02
I am not military nor LE but I do shoot with both.
Maybe talk to your department about possibly attending some local club level prs matches.
Give you an opportunity to shoot further distances as well practice with your rifle.
If you are not allowed to use your issued rifle outside of work then perhaps have a clone rifle built out of pocket. Justify it to the wife as a tool you need to be successful in your job.
Other then that the advice given above seems very solid in my opinon.

 

[Jw2184]

Old justice,

I work for a small city Police Dept in the UP of Michigan and there is only 2 of us that are snipers We could be called out to assist our Sheriff’s Dept or any surrounding agency in more rural areas. My training consists of the basic FBI sniper/observer school and that’s it. I was not (although I requested several times) sent to any further advanced training. I have never shot through any type of barrier and other then one day in training shot this rifle beyond 100 yards, hence my interest in any data someone might be able to provide to me that is using the setup I described above. I do have the trajectory card that was given to me years ago in training and basically am looking to see if anyone has experience to confirm what I have in hand using my similar or exact setup with the exact ammo I’m using. Again I do understand that every rifle is different, just doing research here.

 

[j-huskey]

This isnt guaranteed...

 

[Jw2184]

This isnt guaranteed...

Thank you, this is a bit different then what I have but not by much. Nice to have a little something to go out there with so I should at least be “on paper” .. appreciate your help!

 

[JS624]

I work for a small city Police Dept in the UP of Michigan and there is only 2 of us that are snipers We could be called out to assist our Sheriff’s Dept or any surrounding agency in more rural areas. My training consists of the basic FBI sniper/observer school and that’s it. I was not (although I requested several times) sent to any further advanced training. I have never shot through any type of barrier and other then one day in training shot this rifle beyond 100 yards, hence my interest in any data someone might be able to provide to me that is using the setup I described above. I do have the trajectory card that was given to me years ago in training and basically am looking to see if anyone has experience to confirm what I have in hand using my similar or exact setup with the exact ammo I’m using. Again I do understand that every rifle is different, just doing research here.

Would it be possible to chronograph your velocity on your issued gun? Then you could use an app like applied ballistics to get pretty accurate information for your bullet drop.
Obviously it would be best to confirm this data is correct.
Also it wouldn't hurt to invest in a kestrel 5700 elite. I've shot out to 1270 yards (6.5 creedmoor) using the data my kestrel told me.

 

[Jw2184]

As most police departments are these days we are severely underfunded and understaffed. Our Dept does not have a chrono, and I honestly would be afraid to get laughed at if I put in a request for a kestrel ! Now. That’s not to say I can’t ask around the shooting community up here to see if someone has these resources and would be willing to spend a little time with me at the range, we have a very LE pro community here!

 

[JS624]

As most police departments are these days we are severely underfunded and understaffed. Our Dept does not have a chrono, and I honestly would be afraid to get laughed at if I put in a request for a kestrel ! Now. That’s not to say I can’t ask around the shooting community up here to see if someone has these resources and would be willing to spend a little time with me at the range, we have a very LE pro community here!

I see. That's unfortunate.
If I wasn't across the country I'd gladly help you out! Best of luck!

 

[j-huskey]

If I weren't a bit too far south.. same offer, but.

This may sound silly, and offensive to some... but dont knock it until you try it once in your life.
This is old school as f....

Now, in 4 days, and 20 rounds, in a very old school manner... to 500yards...
IF YOU HAVE THE TIME AND WILL.
This is a Gunny Hathcock method.

24x36 backers, 1,2,3,400 yards, 24x60" backer at 500. Aiming point center at 100 and 200, upper 3rd at 300, top at 400, and top at 500. Always use same aiming point in the tests and your 100 yard zero.
Early A.M. no wind hopefully.
100 yard, CCB. Clean rifle.
200 yard. CCB. Clean rifle.
300 yard. CCB. Clean rifle.
400 yard. CCB. Clean rifle.
500 yard. CCB. Clean rifle.
Take backers and go home. Measure drop in inches and compare with table. Log in data book. Do not tape holes or alter backer.
Using same backers, repeat next 3 days.

At this point, you should have a consistent 4 shot group at each distance, and real data, to compare and true your ballistic program. 20 rounds and that's not a big waste of your dept ammo.

Step 2. Box test your scope on a 48x48 backer, on a 36" square base. That's a second 20 rounds. And you will know if your scope adjustments are accurate and return to zero, and hold... and if you are lucky, havent broken the scope. Ours broke...

Should be safely in dept guidelines at this point and 40 rounds down, with some real and safe data.

Step 3. New backer... 24x60. Aiming point at bottom.
100 ccb, clean rifle, adjust chart call for 200.
200 ccb, clean rifle, adjust chart call for 300.
Out to 500.
Total 4 days... real data.

That's what Gunny would do, I've done, and a number of my snipers have done and we only broke one scope. One like jw2184 has got.

If you get that far, you can use your own judgment to try further. Your scope has limited elevation adjustments that probably wont get you there, and if you have a flat base, even less chance of getting there.
There are two models of your scope, one has 50 moa elevation (your 8010-vm56), one has 60 (8016). And depending on the mount, you might have 30 usable minutes. .. that ain't going far.

However, using the above data, you can figure out mil holds and use them to 500 yards pretty reasonably.
Our scope "was" 100 zero, .4 mils at 200, 1.2 mils at 300, 2.2 mils and 400, 3.4/3.5 mils at 500, 4.5/4.6 mils at 600.
Had to pull old data book and look at that...

Absolute best of luck to you.

 

[Strykervet]

Shit, for the price of that scope they could have got a used CNVD and a Leupold and been better off for less.

Anyway, I'm all for data collection and j-huskey nailed it right there. Good luck.

 

[sinister]

Given the restrictions you have and the limitations of the scope I'd start by building data cards from 50 to 300 yards at 25-yard intervals. Then do it in the dark (given it's a night scope).

You want to do advance things with the equipment you've been given when admittedly you need to start building base proficiency and confidence with the gear.

There are a number of groups who can give you training. Start with the Michigan state rifle association highpower team. Michigan Team

Good luck.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@Jw2184
Maybe the MTOA can point you in the right direction in regards to another department/agency that is close by that can help you with equipment too.
http://mtoa.org/

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Mike Casselton]

Plenty of larger agencies upgrade and will give, loan or transfer older and very serviceable equipment to smaller departments.
It would definitely pay to contract other agencies.

 

[Drago_Jones]

For competitions I use my 700 in 308 and my M14 out to a thousand, challenging and not too many X rings , I've only punched paper but if I thought my tactical needs required me to hit something out to a thousand, 300 win mag in one of the earlier Rem 700s.

 

[THEIS]

For competitions I use my 700 in 308 and my M14 out to a thousand, challenging and not too many X rings , I've only punched paper but if I thought my tactical needs required me to hit something out to a thousand, 300 win mag in one of the earlier Rem 700s.

Hi,

Not sure any of that helps the OP . His department has what it has.

Big difference in 10in Xring and 1in triangle on a moving person with screaming people, barking dogs, etc etc all around you. O and do not forget the legalities of the situation pertaining to the OP shooting duties.

But if looking for competition information...the "Go To" would be @sinister

Edited To Add:
@Drago_Jones
You were with the All Navy Service Rifle Team in 94?
Chief Yo
Lt Little
Cmdr Janaceck(sp)

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[j-huskey]

@Jw2184,
You have a PM.

 

[Longshot85]

If you're interested I'll ship you my magneetospeed for you to borrow to collect your data. Use it, collect your data, verify it then ship it back to me. All you're out is shipping cost on sending it back to me.

I'm all about helping LE when/if possible

Also, you can buy a Weatherflow Weather meter for $65 off Amazon. I've used this method on my 6.5CM to make hits out to 1604 yards.

 

[Snuby642]

An observation from the side.
Despite department budget concerns thier inflexibility is unacceptable.

If you want to buy your own matching ammo and train / hone your skills only a person with poor judgment would prevent that.

My son bought plenty of ammo and burnt the range down every chance.
His chief asked him why and the reply was "I may have to back you up some day".

His chief found him more ammo.

 

[LRShooter101]

https://www.ntoa.org/ - They have a Long Rifle section. Membership is $40. It will get you access to a lot of people and resources.

http://mtoa.org/ - I don't know anything personally about the Assoc, some of the State Assoc are great, some of them are not really active?

http://www.americansniper.org/ - If you are going to be a LE Sniper, you need to be a member! They also produce the Police Sniper Utilization Survey Report http://www.americansniper.org/new_page_12.htm Looking at those reports will give you a realistic look at how you need to be training for "real world call-outs"

http://www.snipercraft.org/product.html - more resources, and they do the annual Sniperweek http://www.snipercraft.org/sniperweek.html

If you are going to be a LE Sniper, you need to insure that you are training for that function, and you are prepared for actual call-outs. Per many of the comments above, there are things that you really need to have nailed down, and worrying about DOPE out past 200 yards is on the bottom of the list. Sorry, not what you were probably looking for, but with limited resources, I would focus on what is really going to make a difference.

I have 33 years behind a Long Rifle between being a Mil Sniper, Comp Shooter (High Power, F-Class, PRS), and a LE Sniper. The other disciplines helped, but to be the best LE Sniper you can requires you to develop some very dedicated and unique skill sets.

If I can help in anyway, shoot me a message.

 

[LRShooter101]

ASA Training Matrix, good place to start if you don't have anything else.

 

[j-huskey]

https://www.ntoa.org/ - They have a Long Rifle section. Membership is $40. It will get you access to a lot of people and resources.

http://mtoa.org/ - I don't know anything personally about the Assoc, some of the State Assoc are great, some of them are not really active?

http://www.americansniper.org/ - If you are going to be a LE Sniper, you need to be a member! They also produce the Police Sniper Utilization Survey Report http://www.americansniper.org/new_page_12.htm Looking at those reports will give you a realistic look at how you need to be training for "real world call-outs"

http://www.snipercraft.org/product.html - more resources, and they do the annual Sniperweek http://www.snipercraft.org/sniperweek.html

If you are going to be a LE Sniper, you need to insure that you are training for that function, and you are prepared for actual call-outs. Per many of the comments above, there are things that you really need to have nailed down, and worrying about DOPE out past 200 yards is on the bottom of the list. Sorry, not what you were probably looking for, but with limited resources, I would focus on what is really going to make a difference.

I have 33 years behind a Long Rifle between being a Mil Sniper, Comp Shooter (High Power, F-Class, PRS), and a LE Sniper. The other disciplines helped, but to be the best LE Sniper you can requires you to develop some very dedicated and unique skill sets.

If I can help in anyway, shoot me a message.

Thank you for posting that. I sent him the data on distances from the 2017 Utilization Report.

 

[LRShooter101]

Some important data from the ASA Report:
- Avg Distance = 57 yards
- 168 SMK has a BAD TRACK RECORD for LE Snipers!
- Multiple Shot Engagements
- Intermediate Barriers

 

[LRShooter101]

Thank you for posting that. I sent him the data on distances from the 2017 Utilization Report.

You replied before I got my other post completed! Thanks!

 

[j-huskey]

Every police sniper on here needs to ingrain your post #31, and read it a couple of times a week. That part of the Utilization Report has so much useful information in it. The staff of every department needs that information force fed to them, imho...
Again, Thank You for posting it.

 

[Infidel4life11]

@Jw2184

I’ve got a few of these cards from Link for different set ups. I use then to help me get real data that I log, that way I’m not wasting ammo initially doping a rifle. They are supposedly made from data using a 700P.

With that said there’s a lot of variables at pay and the cards aren’t 100% for every setup, location and weather.

You’ve been given a lot of good advice in this thread so I’m not going to beat a dead horse. There is a lot of data out there on police sniper shootings and I’m very proud of that. However you have to do the best you can to gather your own data for your area. A lot of shooters are too absolute about their most likely scenario and I’ve never encountered a most likely scenario while on duty.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

This thread is what makes the forum what it is.
Thank you all for doing what gets done.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[LRShooter101]

Every police sniper on here needs to ingrain your post #31, and read it a couple of times a week. That part of the Utilization Report has so much useful information in it. The staff of every department needs that information force fed to them, imho...
Again, Thank You for posting it.

Thanks! Couldn't agree more!

I have taught at a number of different sniper schools, and worked with a lot of different LE sniper teams, over the last 10 years. It never ceases to amaze me how everything is still all over the place. We still see a lot of rifles, gear, skills, and procedures that are straight up out of the 70s & 80s. Case in point, why in the hell anyone is still shooting FGM 168 SMKs is beyond me given all of the factual data out there which shows what a piss poor performer it is for LE sniper work. I could go on and fill pages, but as you pointed out, if it is in that ASA report, then it needs to be addressed.

The LE Sniper Community has actually made some really good advances in the last 10-15 years, but it also still has some serious room for improvement in a lot of areas. Hopefully threads like this will start to get the word out and open some eyes. Thanks to everyone for your contributions!

 

[THEIS]

Hopefully threads like this will start to get the word out and open some eyes. Thanks to everyone for your contributions!

Hi,

Just encase the OP and/or any of the non-engaging LEO SWAT members are reading this thread and trying to determine who/what is real knowledge vs internet knowledge.....

I bet we can get close to 100 years (If not slightly over) of elite level competitive shooting, .Mil sniper, and SWAT/LEO sniper work just from 3 members (Sinister, J-Huskey and LRS101) posting in this thread.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[sinister]

Respectfully, that ASA summary has me scratching my head.

117 of 446 shootings were through a barrier, typically glass. As far as I know, no sniper team in the country dedicates 25% of their practice or exercise rounds through intermediate barriers (plywood, siding, sheetrock, backyard fence, chain-link, Lexan-plexiglass, or glass) -- yet the ASA training recommendation has no barrier-defeat shooting.

Their ammo recommendations contradict. Their Ballistic Tip over BTHP recommendation goes against intermediate barrier penetration -- A-Maxes and Ballistic Tips go all kind of frangible on contact with hard barriers. On the other hand they recommend using bonded bullets while arguing against penetration and ricochet.

An average engagement range of 57 yards over 30 years with a number of first-shot misses, non-lethal body hits, and 24% bad guy survival tell me we need a lot of work.

I agree that most sniper training is done on nice, clean, flat ranges off a bipod and shooting mat or shooting table.

 

[Snuby642]

I am old school af, 60.
The best part of old school le is the judgment they have, cool head and restraint.
With exception of Veterans going blue, the young le have none of that. Imo

I find it strange that le still has death grip on the 308 and some of the standard bullets.

I do not hate le, the 308 or the 168gr, but improvements can be made.
Le would be better off with more old school attitude, and new school gear choices.

 

[LRShooter101]

Respectfully, that ASA summary has me scratching my head with a lot of "WTF?"
. . . . .

Gotta love the wacky world of LE Snipers Col.! I am throwing this out for "general consumption" as I am sure this is not news to you Sir.

Barriers - pretty much no one does any barrier shooting outside of an initial training class (if they do it then) .
ASA actually has some decent materials on Barrier Shooting:

http://www.americansniper.org/new_page_6.htm
ASA does have Barrier Training in the classroom portion of the annual training matrix, but not the practical skills. From my understanding it was not put in the practical skills due a combination of factors (logistics, practicality, etc). My first "attempted" LE Sniper Engagement was through a residential glass window with a SMK bullet, and it was a complete FAILURE! Fortunately the Entry Team was able to eliminate the threat. LESSON LEARNED THE HARD WAY, which is why I am very passionate about educating others, because everything I had learned and done up to that point was a FAILURE when needed.

Ammo/Bullet - the "Perfect LE Sniper Round" does NOT exist.
"Open Air" Round - the Ballistic Tips are an improvement over the SMK for over-penetration, but just barely. The best "Open Air" option would be some form of a round with a truly frangible bullet. Issue 1 - frangible bullets can suck when it comes to consistent Sub MOA performance. Issue 2 - they are practically nonexistent in .30 cal loaded ammo. Barnes has some good frangible bullets, but NO loaded .30 cal factory ammo. There are some "boutique companies" offering loading frangible rounds, but ammo like that can be a huge liability for LE Snipers.
Barrier Round - per your comments, you must have a dedicated barrier round. Good News, there is no shortage of quality loaded ammo options. Bad News, using 2 different rounds means dealing with a different Zero and DOPE.
We recently started shooting some RUAG ammo, http://www.ruagswissp.com/products/overview/ .
Both the "Open Air" and Barrier rounds are great stuff, but it is very hard to find in the US, and it is also very expensive. https://www.milehighshooting.com/am...ured&brand=219&category=85&is_category_page=1
I can probably count on both of my hands the number of teams that I know who truly have a fully developed capability when it comes to Open Air and Barrier capabilities.

Real World Shooting - per the stats, most training programs, and follow on training, honestly SUCKS when it comes to producing high quality repeatable results in the real world. Per the stats, few real world shots come from a bipod in the prone position at a stationary target, but that is how most snipers train. The stats are a damning grade in terms of real world performance, but little is honestly being done to correct it, which is once again why I am here trying to post info to hopefully change that.

As much as I hate to say it, the LE Sniper Community has a LONG ROAD ahead of it. The potential is there to make some really great strides, but it is going to take some real dedicated individuals, because everything associated with a LE Sniper is probably not understood by most administrators and they are probably at the bottom of every priority list. Probably not much different for most MIL Snipers IMHO!

I am going to keep trying to do my part, thanks to everyone else for your efforts!

 

[j-huskey]

Barrier training is evolving, primarily due to "the changes in barriers" relative to building code, and for those obstacles, 338 and 50 ruag are the only serious contenders.
And the pushback from admin is insane, no one knows where it is going. Mark Lang from Tac-flo put on the best barrier class I've been to in a very long career.
The dual round issue will always be an issue, Hornady GMX "has" been recommended and, I've tried it... tactics and barriers are critical.
In a large number of barrier cases, the LE sniper is NOT the solution.... knowing that is critical.

@Dave, the tipped bullet is recommended for open air, not for barrier, perhaps the report might be more appropriately worded on that.

The biggest need relative to barriers and training is a comprehensive class for admin, in my useless opinion, and secondly, training the sniper in knowing when not to shoot, when the training and equipment is inadequate for the job.

More fodder to be mulched...
vr

 

[j-huskey]

More fodder..
From Dave,

Posted only to comment, the report shouldn't make you scratch, especially since posting the failure rates front and center, is a wake up call to both sniper and admin, and is clear indication the writers arent sugar coating anything, but more slap, put it bluntly out there hot wash and the real professionals will work like hell to correct it, and, thankfully are.

Recording the errors, having the shooter present it to 3-400 viewers, and field the questions takes it up a level, and this happens every year at Snipercraft, and the shooting part following the presentations, include scenarios from the presentations. Hear it, see it, shoot it. And no whining because your training was inadequate.

Putting the information out so bluntly, challenges the participants to step up.

I personally think YOU, Sinister Dave, need to be on the ASA board... you have an awful lot to offer. jmho...
Wouldn't mind LR101 on their either. Just sayin...

Most everybody involved in that effort is in the 60 neighborhood or past it.

I'm not totally on my typing game today, this post isnt exactly what I want it to say, been a really long day. No excuses...

 

[Snuby642]

The old core on the board could use a mix of newer leo to moderate the the resistance to upgrade.
In all honesty every le marksman does not require 1k+ gear iether spending could get absurd fast.
Other agencies have stepped up the equipment and set protocal, should be adaptable for liability concerns.

I'm thinking some of the old school in charge are getting to tired and lazy to spend the time it takes
for modernizing and that are worried newbies will make too many mistakes.

I get it I'm old but have a large respect for the prior service members going blue.
They mostly are our only hope these days.
Imo

 

[j-huskey]

@snuby
Jfwiw, the asa board is not, and never has been any problem. They are "the" most forward looking group pushing professional change in LE sniping. Nowhere else can you find the level of brain trust that exists for one specific purpose nor one that has the level of success they have.

The problem is the individual police administrators in departments U.S. wide who set policies and budgets that dont support needed changes, who put LE sniping at the bottom of the list.

The asa board has no ability to fix those problem areas, they can only make suggestions based on solid reasoned investigation of reported incidents.

 

[Snuby642]

I stand corrected !
Maybe I will reread the asa report and understand it better?

I would like to see the asa recommendations for moving forward.

I have mistaken individual departments sop and asa recomendations, my bad.

Family Christmas yesterday le present , lucky them to be able to attend, go by what they tell me.
Have delt with 3 le schools and progams for a referance by family members.

Have seen the good the bad and the ugly, think room for improvement, should be more like the military.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@j-huskey
I bet you could find a fair amount of guys that would vote in agreement with your assessment in regards to Sinister and LRS being on the ASA Board.
I have no skin in the game but I also wish the ASA would increase/expand their technical advisory billets. Would be nice for them to have an exterior ballistics guru on that panel.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[_Windrider_]

I stand corrected !
Maybe I will reread the asa report and understand it better?

I would like to see the asa recommendations for moving forward.

I have mistaken individual departments sop and asa recomendations, my bad.

Family Christmas yesterday le present , lucky them to be able to attend, go by what they tell me.
Have delt with 3 le schools and progams for a referance by family members.

Have seen the good the bad and the ugly, think room for improvement, should be more like the military.

The fucking Beurocrats are the problem. Those that are actually doing the work RARELY get a say. We still use 308 because no one wants to explain in court why they switched to a 6.5 and when you split the grape of a bad guy and it went through his head and then through the wall and into the next apartment. They are happy with just sticking to what they have always used because in court it’s easier.

 

[LRShooter101]

The biggest need . . . . . is a comprehensive class for admin, . . . . .

vr

AND WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

How many people at the top of the Admin Chain have any clue about anything related to being a Sniper? ZERO!

IMHO the Mil Sniper community finally figured that out and they started doing presentations and courses to educate the top of the Command Staff. With those courses the leadership had a much better understanding of the sniper's needs and how to best employee them.

If the LE Sniper community could pull of the same thing, it would go a very long way IMHO. For that to happen the big name leadership associations (IACP, NTOA, etc.) are going to have to buy in and take the lead.

The things the LE Sniper Community needs to move forward are out there, per many comments here, it is just going to take leadership to to buy in and support everything as needed, and some very positive changes could happen very quickly.

Thanks again to everyone!