Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

Lone Wolf,
CNBC quoted the scout sniper school at Lejeune was reporting these problems with their R700s. Just out of curiosity do you have any knowledge of this?
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hula</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lone Wolf,
CNBC quoted the scout sniper school at Lejeune was reporting these problems with their R700s. Just out of curiosity do you have any knowledge of this? </div></div>

I can't speak for the schoolhouse, but I have never personally witnessed any trigger issues from our M40A1's.

I will ask a Marine I served with who was SNCOIC at the 2nd Mar Div school for some time.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jgoodley01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to bring everyones attention to one peice of that video. I am refering to the part where the "police sniper" from portland maine is firing a rem700 prone. If you listen closely at the begining of it you can here them proclaim now its "working again" before cycling the weapon 2 times and firing 2 shots normally. On the "third" watch closely....he has cycled the weapon, loaded a live round and pulled the trigger, but the weapon does not fire. He proclaims "no fire" and removes his finger from the trigger. This as we all know is a HANG FIRE, which can and will happen to any rifle. This is usually not a flawed product, but more than likely a very dirty one.... causing the firing pin to hang. He jiggles the bolt all the while the trigger has already been pulled and amazingly the rifle fires. (by the way the rounds he is feeding into that particular rifle are being picked up out of the dirt) Hmmmm.....as a professional aircraft mechanic and hobby gunsmith I can see exactly how that particular incident took place. 1. Dirty rifle, has not been properly maintained and cleaned. 2. Making the situation worse by continuing to fire a dirty rifle that exibits a problem, and introducing more dirt by feeding it amunition from the ground. 3. The trigger is pulled. 4. The "sear" in the trigger drops and allows the firing pin to slightly move forward and hang. 5. When releasing the trigger the sear is unable to return to its normal position infront of the cocking peice, this is what holds the firing pin back. 6. Jiggle the bolt, the firing pin unsticks and viola....strikes the primer....we all know the end of this story. </div></div>

I had a similar problem to this on my rifle. The problem was that the bolt handle was coming off the bolt body ever so slightly. When you close the bolt, you would over cam the body. I can squeeze the trigger all I want and it wouldn't go off. I lift that bolt ever so slightly, the rifle would fire. It could well be the same scenario here. And mine wasn't a factory 700 nor was it a factory 700 trigger. It was a Kiff bolt that was coming apart and Timney trigger on my rifle. Needless to say, all my 700s from now on will have a 1 piece bolt or a welded bolt handle.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

Aside from the possibility that these rifles where malfunctioning…do to operator error, or bad maintenance...Dirt, grime, gun -oil or mechanical malfunctions ….this is what I saw from the tragic cases they showed.


#1 Horse trailer hit in middle of side wall, Son on opposite side was hit mid thorax below nipple line.


#2 Married couple hunting, Husband’s gun discharges and hit’s wife high in abdomen.

#3 Man clearing rifle, Hit woman in next room in head sitting in a chair at table.


#4 Oilfield supervisors gun discharges and is hit right below the knee. (Why was gun pointed at his knee to begin with?)


I’m sorry for all of them it is sad. <span style="font-weight: bold">But</span> it doesn’t change <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="color: #FF0000">the fact </span></span></span>that in all the cases that some one died because the muzzles where leveled when cleared and not pointed at the best back stop in the world…the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">DIRT or FLOOR</span></span>…just like everyone is taught by a grandparent , or parent or hunter safety course.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Not a single one of the cases showed</span>. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Muzzle control</span></span>!!!! Regardless as to why the guns went off….if the muzzles had been at the ground these people would all still be here.


How many discharges happen world wide with all brands and types of guns that don't hurt or kill anybody because the muzzles are pointed down when they go off???...bet the #'s are huge!!!

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">IMO what I saw was human error...period.</span> </span>
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hula</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lone Wolf,
CNBC quoted the scout sniper school at Lejeune was reporting these problems with their R700s. Just out of curiosity do you have any knowledge of this? </div></div>

I can't speak for the schoolhouse, but I have never personally witnessed any trigger issues from our M40A1's.

I will ask a Marine I served with who was SNCOIC at the 2nd Mar Div school for some time. </div></div>


They referred to the situation as a "Remington Moment".
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jlaw973</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nothing was ever mentioned whether any of the rifles had trigger jobs done. Everyone knows if you don't adjust the trigger properly they can mess up. Sure, anything mechanical can and eventually will fail, but I would almost bet most of the rifles had trigger jobs done. </div></div>

stop injecting logic and reason into the argument and get on board with the bashing.

actually, I thought the same exact thing. none of those who experienced this "problem" stated whether the gun was modified by themselves or some other amateur gun wrench. Of course none wants to take responsibility for the ND or its consequences.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnpatterson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello,

I do web work for Remington and wanted to make sure you are aware of our response to this. Check out http://www.remington700.tv

Hope this clears up any confusion out there.

Best,
Colleen </div></div>

Not really, Colleen. How about a direct link to answers to the questions not asked teaser video? I am a Remington fan, owning 2 M700 VSF LH rifles, but I think now is the time for direct answers not spin or a marketing / advertising campaign.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

It appears to me that CNBC has a distinct motive associated with this report. It is not the model 700 or Remington they are after. The culmination of excerpts they compiled is aimed at the Second Amendment to our Constitution. The suggestion that the consumer product safety commission should regulate the manufacture of firearms is a clear attempt to limit what we are able to own. Further it is an attempt to set a precedent that may recall all firearms deemed unsafe by people that do not support, nor would not defend the Constitution of the United States of America.

This steaming pile of anti-gun propaganda made me go out today and purchase a new Milspec 5-R 700 in 300 Win Mag. Now all I need is some CNBC stickers to paste on my target stand.

My 2 cents.

Semper Fidelis.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

Accountability, everyone has to be accountable for own their actions. Under no circumstances should anyone ever be muzzle swept loaded or not. It's easier to blame somebody else for your wrong actions especially when you can get paid off for it. Sad these people were hurt, even if there is a defect, common sense would have prevented them all.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

I just found out the rifle that killed young Gus Barber was 28 years old
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/02/07/eveningnews/main270170.shtml

Remington said it had looked at the rifle that shot Gus Barber and found "the inside of the rifle to be heavily rusted, and the trigger engagement screw, safety lever and fire control mechanism all had been either adjusted or removed and reinstalled after the rifle left the factory."

from
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/17/eveningnews/main301947.shtml
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

There are a few points here

1. Poor, rubbish, dangerous gun handling killed those people. The shooters were handling live uncleared guns and had no idea of their muzzle angles and backstops.

2. Nobody knows, not even the shooters and the respective owners, the condition of the trigger assemblies now. The triggers may have been modified or full of crap or oil.

3. There is a problem with the Remington trigger, thats why myself and thousands of other fellow shooters have installed Jewels, Timneys Riflebasix etc.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuscalino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
3. There is a problem with the Remington trigger, thats why myself and thousands of other fellow shooters have installed Jewels, Timneys Riflebasix etc. </div></div>


you and thousands of others replaced the remington trigger because the rifle fires unintentionally as adjusted from the factory?
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuscalino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are a few points here

3. There is a problem with the Remington trigger, thats why myself and thousands of other fellow shooters have installed <span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Jewels</span></span>, Timneys Riflebasix etc. </div></div>

That's some funny shit right there.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

Firearms kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnel fat.
- Like pencils cause mispelled words.

But seriously, this is the govt's attempt to control everything. They succeeded in gaining control over the automobile industry, and are looking for a way to get into the firearm industry,

Quote from http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/17/eveningnews/main301947.shtml

"...There could be as many 20,000 Remington Model 700 rifles that can be triggered accidentally, and the government has no power to issue a recall over the flawed firearms.
...The Barber family tragedy has become Exhibit One in a bill now before Congress that would regulate firearms like any other consumer product..."

What is failed to be pointed out is pretty much what has already been said in this thread (maintenance, older models, failures to be safe, problem already fixed, etc etc).

I just cant believe the govt' and how it is trying to run OUR lives in every aspect of our daily lives, taxing us to death, and wondering why they are in such debt. Less = More.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

Has everyone forgotten that we were all told that Glocks were going off on their own and killing people as they lay unattended in a nightstand?

I've had and still have many 700s, including a Landtec and two pre-1982 retired snipers.

If they are maintained and respected, they will seldom attack their owner if unprovoked.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

If I recall correctly they stated in the CNBC special that despite the Marine Corps reporting the weapons at the Scout Sniper school unintentionally firing 2 out of every 20 rounds the Corps signed another contract with Remington for 20 million dollars! LMFAO! That's kind of contradicting if you ask me and of course no one is getting shot at the scout sniper schools due to this. Wonder why? It's evident to us and any educated and responsible weapon handler.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSFG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has everyone forgotten that we were all told that Glocks were going off on their own and killing people as they lay unattended in a nightstand?
</div></div>

I think that is what happened here.
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Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

Funny. I adjusted my trigger myself and was very careful to ensure that it worked, would accidently fire through various and extensive testing. At the end of the day I never had any problems after 100's of .300WM rounds down range.

The biggest take away is to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction (as the instructions and common sense indicates), and if you are unsure about something then don't screw with it, find a pro and have them adjust or fix it.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

I watched it twice now, saw the same thing you did. What infuriates me as well is you hear Scott Cohn saying "..and the sniper never touched the trigger!" Myself having just seen him pull the trigger seconds before!

As far as I could tell, in almost each video shown, the trigger was pulled, you can see them squeeze the trigger, finger inside the trigger guard, then they remove their finger and they move either the bolt or safety in the case of the Border Patrol clip.

It's like watching a magician set up for a trick. Each time the process appears to be followed, each time Scott saying, "note the trigger is not touched"!

Tell me I am not seeing things gentlemen.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is clearly a tragedy for the family, no questioning that. It's the worse possible thing ever... but when people ND they are so surprised they don't know what they did. was her finger on the trigger, she can't say, it happened too fast and immediately everything went wrong. Clearly she failed to follow the firearm safety rules, which is your first line of safety, it's only gets worse after that.

usually when the triggers start to go south that cause them to fire when you close the bolt, or take it off safe, there are warning signs. # 1 the rifle usually doesn't cock the first time you close the bolt it will require you lift the handle again to cock it. There are normally clues that something is wrong.

Problem is, if the trigger was adjusted, fault could lie there, if it was indeed more than 18 years old at the time, <span style="text-decoration: underline">you have to ask what kind of maintenance was done, all these things add up to owner responsibility. </span>Hate me for, but it is how I see these things. </div></div>

++++++++++++++++++++

LL has nailed it here, aside from the whole firearms saftey rules issue broken in this story, the question must be asked what maintenance was done on this rifle? I spoke with a friend last night who is currently working on the floor of the PWS at Quantico, his first comment was "what was the maintenance" on this rifle. Did the owner just keep spraying WD40 into the action over the years and gum it up? If you take care of your stick, a 700 action is a fine piece, as many of us here can atest too....
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

First I would like to say hello, haven't posted here, been hiding in the shadows for years.
I have a model 721 from 1951, it was my grandfather's. I received this gun after he passed away. I read about the trigger swap program that remington had for this model, but never sent it back to have the "safer" trigger put in. Since it was his gun and he was dead, I couldn't be sure what had been done to the trigger, I thoroughly researched how to adjust the trigger on my model 721 and did the adjustment myself. I have put hundreds of rounds through it since "I" adjusted the trigger. If the sear is not engaged far enough, you will get slam fires/safety release fires, etc. I can work the bolt as hard as I like, slam the butt of the rifle on the floor til my hands sting, and I have never had a slamfire. I've never had the firing pin drop when the safety is switched to fire. Haven't measured with a scale or weights, but it is probably 2 - 3 lbs. of trigger pull(very crisp and breaks like a glass rod). And yes, as said previously this particular trigger mechanism requires you to disengage safety to cycle the bolt. For people w/ confusion over model years of model 700 wiki: remington model 700 and you will get the history needed to fulfill your lack thereof.
#1- Treat all guns as if they are loaded.
#2- Never point a gun at anything you don't intend to kill/shoot.
#3- Safeties fail-None are 100% failproof/foolproof

Chris
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dougster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's like watching a magician set up for a trick. Each time the process appears to be followed, each time Scott saying, "note the trigger is not touched"!
</div></div>

1+


Remington Under Fire seamed more like a Michael Moore film than objective journalism. It will be hard for me to ever trust Scott Cohn reporting after this.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

I've never had a problem with a Rem 700 trigger, in fact I Like Rem 700 triggers, BUT I like Jewell triggers more.
My new stainless 700 just came in with the new X-mark Pro trigger which I won't be using only because I've got a new Jewell trigger just waiting to be installed. Should anyone be in need of a New Rem X-Mark Pro trigger, just let me know.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

I haven't read every page of this thread, seen enough of the ranting. As I understand it, based on this image, the alleged problem is caused by the shoe not being permanently attached to the trigger?? Seems to me a drop of adhesive would prevent an issue with debris getting between the two parts.


trig.jpg
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

It is all a conspiracy to stop the private equity owners realising their investment in Remington via a sale on the stock market.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

Does anyone have a source to watch the episode online or to download it?

I have not been able to see it so I can't respond to any questions about the episode in total. I can only respond to the individual arguments and I really want to see how idiotic the show was.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

In my opinion the malfunctions are probably caused by the idiot owners playing gunsmith and trying to adjust the trigger. Then when they f%ck it up and kill somebody by mishandling on top of shade tree gunsmithing they want to blame it on the rifle. Guns dont kill people, stupid mutha fuc&*^ with guns kill people!

Sorry, that whole show pissed me off!
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NickG.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guns dont kill people, stupid mutha fuc&*^ with guns kill people!</div></div>


+100..... The daughter of the mother who shot her 9 year old son said just the opposite...." my mother didn't kill him the gun did it."

My wife jumped a mile high cause I stood up and yelled out "<span style="font-weight: bold">OH Keep telling yourself that and everbody else and all those that think guns just jump up a do this crap....Whatever let's you sleep at night!!

Its a tool...and not handled properly this is what happens no matter what cause's the discharge!!

Don't go out to the tool shed all kinds of crap is going to jump up and get ya expecially that elusive chainsaw that lurks in there….Christ in a cartoon. People will never learn!!!"</span>
mad.gif



Then she made me go take a blood pressure pill....
wink.gif
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

Im with LL and .308 LPT on this one. absolutely no reason anyone was killed. if she thought the horse trailor was a backstop...thats retarded, what if there were other people behind it, or animals in it.
FLAT OUT - negligent discharge from a negligent person.
FOLLOW YOUR 4 RULES

I was pheasant hunting this past weekend with people that were some of the most unsafe of my life. after 1 walk with these people, my father and I just left and went home. No bird is worth getting shot.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wildnv</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dougster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's like watching a magician set up for a trick. Each time the process appears to be followed, each time Scott saying, "note the trigger is not touched"!
</div></div>

1+


Remington Under Fire seamed more like a Michael Moore film than objective journalism. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">It will be hard for me to ever trust Scott Cohn reporting after this.</span> </span>



</div></div>



Surprises me that anyone ever did!
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

This idea that you can always have a safe direction to point a firearm in is absurd. Any rifle that fires without the trigger being pulled is defective.

Would you be willing to send a police marksman to prison for manslaughter if he pushed the safety forward and put an SMK into a hostage?
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frog5215</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe. Certainly remove him from that position.
You can't just say "oops!". </div></div>

This maybe the most ignorant statement made in this thread so far...
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This idea that you can always have a safe direction to point a firearm in is absurd. Any rifle that fires without the trigger being pulled is defective.

Would you be willing to send a police marksman to prison for manslaughter if he pushed the safety forward and put an SMK into a hostage? </div></div>

And I'll bet that every legal department representing an LEO sniper team in this country is asking that very question as we speak.

There are already at least a couple departments that have reacted to this by moving away from the Remington 700.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2134700

There may have been others in the past that just have not been correlated yet.

I would not be surprised to see more follow simply to reduce exposure.

John
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This idea that you can always have a safe direction to point a firearm in is absurd. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Any rifle that fires without the trigger being pulled is defective.</span></span>


Would you be willing to send a police marksman to prison for manslaughter if he pushed the safety forward and put an SMK into a hostage? </div></div> <span style="color: #CC0000">Answer-only if you expect me to believe that this occurred for the first time when the rifle discharged. </span>


Equally absurd is the childish assumption that,

A) Said defect appears purely out of the blue,
B) Remington knew it was defective from the outset,
C) Has tried to hide it from the public and
D) Is so callous about the safety of its consumers and the general public that they refused to replace this supposed defective design with a better one due to a a few cents difference.

Bullshit.

How about some ethical reporting for a change? Fuck NBC! Garbage in Garbage out.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

Queequeq,

The points you made are roughly the accusations made against Remington (and its parent company) and I have yet to hear Remington produce anything substantial in response other than some baseball, Chevy and apple pie spots.

I think the assumption that because "gun-hating, left-wing liberals" have made a public case about something, means that it's fundamentally false, is... well... fundamentally flawed. Do I agree that CNBC is necessarily neutral in it's reporting or capable of presenting an unbiased case the public? No. But they just did a scathing piece on Obama's inability to address the really important issues. That coupled with the fact that his fiscal policy was built on hocus pocus will cost the Democratic party dearly on Tuesday. Should we toss that out too on the same premise?

The story is far from over and the whole truth may or may not ever be public, but I'd urge you to keep an open mind, do you own reading on the subject and then make up your mind.

I've seen an awful lot of conjecture, myth's restated as fact as well as out and out bullshit spewed on these forums, for what? Support of the "gun industry?" Remember that gun companies are not all passions lived out in the form of business. William Roscoe, Tom Manners, and a list of others, most Hide sponsors, that would hit the floor and roll across the room are examples of gun guys that do this because they LOVE it and make better tools available to us (and feed their families too!). But at some point, things become large enough, business becomes removed from passion and profits determine EVERYTHING. This sets the stage for poor decisions to be made, and I can absolutely understand a setting where what has been asserted could have transpired.

Please read the article by H.J. Belk in this link. He describes in detail the inner workings of the Walker trigger. He also gives the failure modes associated and if you read carefully (if you believe him) will understand that these triggers are more risk than we've been led to believe.

http://www.utterpower.com/ (about halfway down the page)

I for one, am not going to be an unwitting pawn, used by Remington and it's lawyers to sway public opinion in their favor, because of my "pro-gun" stance. A finger has been pointed. If true a very serious accusation with deep ramifications. I'm waiting for a reasonable response.

I would urge you to withhold judgement.

John
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

I never believed any device made by man could be without defect. While "good enough" is the enemy of perfection, the trigger in question that will fail in a loaded firearm, will fail in an unloaded arm as well. Thus, like any mechanism, it requires maintenance and handling by people who are competent to do so.

No effort has been made to determine if every example cited in the CNBC assault was tampered with, neglected or in good repair.

Remington acknowledged the problem they had with the earlier triggers in 1982. While Ruger would have fixed such a problem at no charge, as an example of a difference in corporate culture, the fact that Remington addressed one problem so long ago speaks to an effort at good faith.

But lets not pretend that there is not a plague of lawyers unleashed on our society, an epidemic of parasites responsible for nothing and a pool of credulous dumb asses who'll believe any nasty accusation lobbed at "Corporations".

I demand proof damn it.

Until then, Bullshit!

As to CNBC's paltry effort to correct the grievous fraud they helped create in supporting the current regime; ten years of such critical reporting won't begin to atone for the damage done to our nation.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I demand proof damn it.

Until then, Bullshit!</div></div>

I understand your skepticism. I want proof that these accusations are NOT true.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Remington acknowledged the problem they had with the earlier triggers in 1982. While Ruger would have fixed such a problem at no charge, as an example of a difference in corporate culture, the fact that Remington addressed one problem so long ago speaks to an effort at good faith.</div></div>

This is what I don't understand. If, according to Walker himself, there were issues with the trigger, why would Remington after ALL those years, address only the bolt lock? According to accounts I've seen posted, they had issues with brand new rifles exhibiting this problem very early in production IN THE FACTORY.

Sure this fixed the problem of firing upon release of the safety, *if* you were unloading the rifle, but what if you're an LEO sniper and you flick off your safety when pointed at a perp holding a hostage?

Remington admitted that the bolt lift fix was to address potential liability exposure. So why not fix the trigger? My only guess is, that would mean recalling the entire installed base and that was not palatable to them for whatever reason.

You and I absolutely agree on the unscrupulous lawyer population. I believe that in order to have a job in this country, you should be able to prove your worth. My guess is that 90% of the lawyers would disappear under this plan.
wink.gif


John
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

Very good link to an interesting blog I'll be returning to. This flywheel business is fascinating though electrical stuff makes this old carpenter's brain hurt!

I don't dispute the likelihood that the Remington Walker is not as evolved a design as other over ride triggers. I dispute the notion of malevolence imputed in the criticism of Remington.

I don't work for, am not related to, nor invested in any way to Remington beyond owning a couple 700s in addition to several other bolt guns of different manufacturers.

The point of my skepticism is to counter the "Eureka!!! It's another Tobacco Industry" theme of this 'Investigation'.

What I am seeing so far is, at most, a stubborn corporate culture reluctant to make a change based upon a dispute over what constitutes a minimum acceptable rate of defect.

It is entirely simplistic to suggest that zero defects should be the primary goal of manufacturing any product, even a firearm. (Though I'm not implying that you are saying this John). Further it can be shown that the trigger can in fact be tested for the presence of dirt, abuse, maladjustment, or defective manufacture that can give rise to the failure to which this trigger system is allegedly prone.

From the article you linked:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Practical gunsmith’s test of the Remington-Walker trigger—

Over the decades, standardized tests of Remington-Walker triggers have been developed to show a trigger that is prone to repeatable failures. These tests are simple, non destructive and can be very useful in identifying triggers that are demonstrably bad. It must be kept in mind that just because a trigger passes these test does NOT mean it’s safe. As seen by the design, the defect is inherently present in the trigger. It just doesn’t always fail. The shooter has no way of knowing when that failure might occur.

“Tricking” a trigger is done by carefully placing the safety lever in the ‘null’ position between fire and safe. Some guns won’t perch there, some will. With the safety perched between detents, pull the trigger and release very slowly. Pay careful attention to a tiny ‘click’ as the trigger is pulled. If it’s there, the gun will likely fire when the safe is pushed to OFF. Try that test several times and flip the safe off after each careful pull. Tricking is a way to determine if the lift of the safety cam is enough to clear the top of the connector in half-way position.

“Screw driver Test” is done with the gun cocked and ON safe. Push against the bottom of the connector, seen just in front of the bolt release leaf, with a screwdriver or punch and then push the safety to OFF. If the connector is sloppy on the trigger it will over ride the front of the sear so that the sear has no support when the safety is released. Guns that fail this test can sometimes fire on safety release after suffering common vibrations in a vehicle or on horseback.

“Sear lift test” assures the safety cam raises the sear high enough to not drag on the connector when on safe. Place the rifle safety ON and pull the trigger several times and release it slowly. If the connector drags on the bottom of the sear it can’t get back under the sear to catch it as the safety is flipped OFF.

Guns that have been dropped while on safe can develop this failure by denting the safety cam. </div></div>

In the absence of a memo(of a smoking gun nature) or other damning proof showing that Remington knowingly placed a dangerous product into the market based solely on arrogance, indifference, the savings of 12 cents per unit or any other reason that could be successfully argued to go beyond the realm of the typical arcana frequently disputed by brainiack Engineers everywhere, every day, over any matter of engineering, I will wait to conclude that remington has perpetrated a civil wrong.

Until then I will gladly take your 700s off your hands for the princely sum of $85.00 each.

For the children!
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dispute the notion of malevolence imputed in the criticism of Remington.</div></div>
I'm guessing this would be very hard to prove. As a former engineer, I can see how Remington may have made unwise incremental decisions, some perhaps bordering on idiotic in hindsight, each one putting them in a costlier position to rectify and eventually reaching a point of no return.

For Remington to come out now and say there was a problem would undo all of that. I'm sure their lawyers are advising them to stay the course and hope this blows over.

They did not handle this situation in the manner I would have (in hindsight at least). That does not necessarily make them guilty of criminal negligence. Bad business practices perhaps.

Having said that, I DO believe that the ball is in their court to prove that these triggers are NOT a safety concern to their customers. There are too many question marks hanging.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the absence of a memo(of a smoking gun nature) or other damning proof showing that Remington knowingly placed a dangerous product into the market based solely on arrogance, indifference, the savings of 12 cents per unit or any other reason that could be successfully argued to go beyond the realm of the typical arcana frequently disputed by brainiack Engineers everywhere, every day, over any matter of engineering, I will wait to conclude that remington has perpetrated a civil wrong.</div></div>
As stated above, I'm not necessarily arguing that they are. My point is and has been, significant questions have been raised as to the safety of these triggers. Circumstantial evidence would seem to imply that Remington knew *something* was going on, (Walker's original assertion that there were unexplained AD's in the early days in factory rifles, the rewording of the 10 commandments of gun safety, the redesign in 1982 of the "bolt lift" and the recent acceptance of the X Mark Pro trigger). The fact that they did not put it all together does not necessarily imply anything criminal. But CNBC *DID* put it all together. Right or wrong. The case is plausible at a minimum and demands a better response than "we're a great company and we make great guns and you can trust us". OK, Remington. Prove it...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While Ruger would have fixed such a problem at no charge, as an example of a difference in corporate culture, the fact that Remington addressed one problem so long ago speaks to an effort at good faith.</div></div>
...in the name of good faith.


John

ETA: Allowing manufacturing companies like Remington to brainwash us into expecting nothing but the highest levels of safety is a very slippery slope. If they can get us to "never trust your safety" where exactly does that stop? They've gotten US to take responsibility for their engineering or lack thereof. I'm with Belk. If I don't pull the trigger, the gun should NEVER discharge. And should it, because as you say there is NO perfect design, they better show slightly more than due diligence that they have investigated and addressed the concern at hand.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ETA: Allowing manufacturing companies like Remington to brainwash us into expecting nothing but the highest levels of safety is a very slippery slope. If they can get us to "never trust your safety" where exactly does that stop? They've gotten US to take responsibility for their engineering or lack thereof. I'm with Belk. If I don't pull the trigger, the gun should NEVER discharge. And should it, because as you say there is NO perfect design, they better show slightly more than due diligence that they have investigated and addressed the concern at hand.
</div></div>

Is there a transposition in this quote? If not, aren't you refuting your own argument? Ergo, how is it congruent to your skepticism toward Remington's motives to suggest that they have brainwashed us into expecting nothing but the highest levels of safety when what you seem to be suggesting is that most of us, (or perhaps just me!
laugh.gif
)are unwilling to believe Big Green is capable of doing something wrong.

I have to tell you, I thought the E-TronX was about as bone brained as "New Coke", rivaled closely by that triangular barrel idea. Clearly, I don't drink the "Flavorade" (The actual Guyana "People's Temple" poisoned beverage).

The fact remains that there are better triggers out there but the idea that this one is imperfect should not be a surprise to an adult.

That it should have a rate of defect of 1 in 1,000,000,000 rather than 1 in 800,000 units is a matter of far more consequence, complication and cost than should be left to the judgement of opportunistic journalists, uninformed viewers, predatory lawyers and moron jurors.

Zero Defects is a concept that is practical only among those who produce nothing.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaw

eek.gif


Good catch and thanks for not feeding me to the wolves.

That should have read,

"Allowing manufacturing companies like Remington to brainwash us into expecting less than the highest levels of safety is a very slippery slope. If they can get us to "never trust your safety" where exactly does that stop?

Sorry, somewhat distracted old guy. Boy is headed off to the Middle East, family stuff ... I should make way for people who are more focused. I do care about this...

I'll contribute again when my head is really in this... taking up bandwidth otherwise.

John

Flavorade... you DO pay attention don't you.
wink.gif
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

It hapopens... Please tell me any product from the 70's that wasnt harmfull or banned as of yet.. Shit half of anything made in the 60's 70's and even 80's has been banned or found problems and taken off the market.. We werent smart as we are now back then reason remington got the xmark pro..


Haf of those interviews were cut to only say the bad and the ugly.. And tehnically it was said but I bet there was hours and hours of video cut out to make it seem so horable and half these couch screamers are going to believe every word of it..

Google remington arms on youtube and you'll see a few of what they gave the short ugly answer to. Ill give you a link to help you guys out... A lot of interesting points remington hands out.

http://www.youtube.com/user/RemingtonArmsCompany?blend=2&ob=1

Want and be amazed.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

Firearms Safety 101 trumps ALL other arguments. Why do some people NOT get this???

Mechanical things will fail. Are ALL Remington triggers going to fail? NO... But some will. It's just a mathematical certainty. That's why we practice FIREARMS SAFETY.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

Yeah? Well somebody earlier called me ignorant for suggesting negligence in the event of an "oops" while holding near a hostage/innocent.

I AM ignorant! That's why I participate here: to reduce my ignorance.

I confess an uneasiness regarding paramilitary training of civilian police, especially with regard to use of entry teams in any but the most dire circumstances.

As a potential hostage/actual innocent, I would not feel like a marksman had done me a favor by having an ND upon my person while holding in my general vicinity while releasing his safety.

I won't blame his rifle. Will he?
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

One thing I did not like a bout the safety on my Remington Model 700 Etronix the owners manual said "do not test the safety". So I sold my Etronix (a great shooting gun)

This is Remington side of it. New video released today

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