Remington actually did it...

[Primus]

This sounds a lot like the 9mm vs .45 threads. The 700 has killed a lot of bad guys so it can't be that bad. How many Ruger American actions are out there doing that? In my totally meaningless and unsolicited opinion, the biggest advantage over the 700 for the American is the 3 lug bolt, but that's no deal breaker.

More people have died from rocks than been killed with a 700, that doesn't mean im going to run down to the quarry and get my new ccw peice.

The american is in every way shape and form a better rifle. Better designed and manufactured action, better barrels, comes with 1 pic base, detachable mag all for 450-500 street price...not to mention you can get a threaded barrel from the factory on most models. No its no tikka, winny or bergera, but its 95% of those rifles at half the price. An absolute bargain in the sub 600 rifle along with howa.

 

[_Windrider_]

More people have died from rocks than been killed with a 700, that doesn't mean im going to run down to the quarry and get my new ccw peice.

The american is in every way shape and form a better rifle. Better designed and manufactured action, better barrels, comes with 1 pic base, detachable mag all for 450-500 street price...not to mention you can get a threaded barrel from the factory on most models. No its no tikka, winny or bergera, but its 95% of those rifles at half the price. An absolute bargain in the sub 600 rifle along with howa.

I wasn't disagreeing. i'm just saying that the 700 cant be that bad seeing as how its pretty widely used. it could use a refresh though. but arguments like this is the best and that is th ebest are frustrating, hence my 9mm vs 45 joke. its been going on for decades with no clear winner. I imagine this argument is very similar. it comes down to preference. but I can get a Rem 700 AAC-SD with a threaded barrel for 650. the stock is garbage though.

 

[supercorndogs]

I'll see your LOL and raise you a LOL...

No, but seriously though, this is serious and important, this is seriously important and you LOL. LOLLOLOLOL

 

[TheGerman]

 

[Rhyno]

In the end it's not really Remington's fault.

its everyone who buys one and says "well good enough" or "what can you expect for $$$"

considering that other manufacturers have just as cheap of rifles (even with import fees) and seem to have fewer firing pin problems (cratering everything) and the primary extraction surfaces that line up, that at the minimum should be expected.

yet people keep buying the damn things so why would Remington fix anything?

quit buying the dang things and capitalism takes care of the issues, as long as they are making money there's no need to change.

 

[Primus]

Of course it is Remington's fault.......

They have continually cheapened and built shittier rifles over the last 30 years. Something that Winchester paid a heavy price for post 64 (and is probably one of the reasons the 700 became the go to rifle, other than any shitty smith can chuck it into a lathe) and has caught up with Remington. They haven't made a quality product in about 20 years, with the exception of some of the contract rifles going through their custom shop.

Howa, Tikka, Winchester, Ruger, Bergera all make a vastly superior rifle, both action and system. Hell, even Browning makes a better quality rifle, despite the silly press fit barrels.

Only morons buy Remington rifles. I sell them every weekend and despite trying to talk sense into people, your average gun owner/buyer is a fucking functional retard. I have been able to to turn a good number of folks who came into buy a 700 instead to a Tikka, Winchester, Bergera or Ruger but you can't fix stupid.

 

[Rthur]

Of course it is Remington's fault.......

They have continually cheapened and built shittier rifles over the last 30 years. Something that Winchester paid a heavy price for post 64 (and is probably one of the reasons the 700 became the go to rifle, other than any shitty smith can chuck it into a lathe) and has caught up with Remington. They haven't made a quality product in about 20 years, with the exception of some of the contract rifles going through their custom shop.

Howa, Tikka, Winchester, Ruger, Bergera all make a vastly superior rifle, both action and system. Hell, even Browning makes a better quality rifle, despite the silly press fit barrels.

Only morons buy Remington rifles. I sell them every weekend and despite trying to talk sense into people, your average gun owner/buyer is a fucking functional retard. I have been able to to turn a good number of folks who came into buy a 700 instead to a Tikka, Winchester, Bergera or Ruger but you can't fix stupid.

I'm not a remington fan boy.
You may want to consider when imports(part of their competition) started flooding the US.
I'll wager they weren't getting decent wages (american pay) to build them.
This started the race to the bottom.
Such as a "bolt" action rifle for 375 bucks.

R

 

[Lionsbreath]

I guess I'm a moron then, cause I love a Rem700.. I like how everyone who doesn't shoot a 700 bitches about them,shut up and shoot your dadgummed Tikkas and Savages.. I'm not switching plain and simple,end of story..Tikka got a thing going ,70 degree bolt throw,slick bolt,straight action, the list goes on, I hear it all the time from my Tikka shooting buddies.. but I don't like Tikka's gay looking bolt shroud and the fact that I'm limited to factory or CDI bottom-metal My 700 is a hammer (that's what we all say) and all my stocks,and parts are interchangeable plus a built 700 just looks plain sexy to me

 

[_Windrider_]

I guess I'm a moron then, cause I love a Rem700.. I like how everyone who doesn't shoot a 700 bitches about them,shut up and shoot your dadgummed Tikkas and Savages.. I'm not switching plain and simple,end of story..Tikka got a thing going ,70 degree bolt throw,slick bolt,straight action, the list goes on, I hear it all the time from my Tikka shooting buddies.. but I don't like Tikka's gay looking bolt shroud and the fact that I'm limited to factory or CDI bottom-metal My 700 is a hammer (that's what we all say) and all my stocks,and parts are interchangeable plus a built 700 just looks plain sexy to me

And that's why the 700 continues to sell. Aftermarket support. There is a reason, even the best actions out there are 700 pattern. Now, the 700 is not perfect, but with some tweaking it's a damn fine gun. Tikka, ruger, savage, who fucking cares. You shoot yours, I'll shoot mine and we can go home.

 

[Rhyno]

I guess I'm a moron then, cause I love a Rem700.. I like how everyone who doesn't shoot a 700 bitches about them,shut up and shoot your dadgummed Tikkas and Savages.. I'm not switching plain and simple,end of story..Tikka got a thing going ,70 degree bolt throw,slick bolt,straight action, the list goes on, I hear it all the time from my Tikka shooting buddies.. but I don't like Tikka's gay looking bolt shroud and the fact that I'm limited to factory or CDI bottom-metal My 700 is a hammer (that's what we all say) and all my stocks,and parts are interchangeable plus a built 700 just looks plain sexy to me

I shoot a Remington 700.... so I hope your not talking to me, wouldn't make much sense. Now I bought it years ago when I was still under the delusion that Remington was good, and couldn't see past the same fan boyism that you find yourself in.

Anecdotal evidence aside having to add parts to a stock r700 doesn't necessarily make it better, as it can also point towards issues that are so common people are making lots of money selling upgrades.

if people quit accepting the crap Remington is putting out then maybe you wouldn't have to add all that stuff on the backend.

At the very least we might get a rifle that doesn't crater everything and the bolt handle is put on in the proper place. I can't imagine that either of those things would require a huge change in manufacturing technique to fix, more than likely all it would take were for someone to give a rats ass.

 

[Primus]

I'm not a remington fan boy.
You may want to consider when imports(part of their competition) started flooding the US.
I'll wager they weren't getting decent wages (american pay) to build them.
This started the race to the bottom.
Such as a "bolt" action rifle for 375 bucks.

R

LOL........Yea you know the Finnish, Jappanese and Belguins are a bunch of 3rd world underpaid slaves......

The fact that Sako could make Tikka's at their price point, AFTER import taxes, shipping them half way around the world, and with much higher cost of manufacturing/taxes tells you all you need to know.

Want to take a guess where the $400 Ruger American is made?

Remington went to shit 20+ years ago, before any of these rifles were even on the radar of the American consumer.

 

[Primus]

I guess I'm a moron then, cause I love a Rem700.. I like how everyone who doesn't shoot a 700 bitches about them,shut up and shoot your dadgummed Tikkas and Savages.. I'm not switching plain and simple,end of story..Tikka got a thing going ,70 degree bolt throw,slick bolt,straight action, the list goes on, I hear it all the time from my Tikka shooting buddies.. but I don't like Tikka's gay looking bolt shroud and the fact that I'm limited to factory or CDI bottom-metal My 700 is a hammer (that's what we all say) and all my stocks,and parts are interchangeable plus a built 700 just looks plain sexy to me

Savage are shit rifles too. Funny how my chassis fitted tikka's all use AICS mags. A rem700 takes an extra $500 worth of work just to even approach the features and quality of a base tikka action.

Got to play with the new Bergera Match rifles at work today. Fully adjustable chassis, Nice long Mlock rail, Fat ass 24" 6.5CM barrels, action slick as shit. For $1500 its one hell of a rifle, even better it will only cost me $1K.

 

[ejg]

I have and have had several T3's, several remmie's also a Sako, Mauser, Howa's. More important than the action I think is the quality of the stock and the quality of the bedding. I or one of our staff do the bedding and we make the same type stocks on all of my rifles. The rifles fitted with aftermarket barrels all shoot to the same accuracy, with factory barrels only my 308 CTR's can match that. For me the real downer on a Rem 700 is the trigger. Living in Ireland we just don't have the selection of aftermarket triggers at reasonable prices. T3's have fantastic useable triggers and are therefore outselling Rem700 and Howas....at least here.
edi

 

[powdahound76]

Primus, you are a nut. However, a nut I that I can follow and see your point.
the Bergara HMR looks to be the rifle that will give Tikka the hardest run as the bolt is about the same to run. Open the option of any Rem trigger/stock/chassis and there is the winner. If I were buying a rifle, that one would get a serious look from me.
I shoot a couple 700s, one being a Mark Chanlynn with one of his barrels. I got in on the LRI group buy to build a .223 to match it for a screaming bargain.

And yes, LOL.......

 

[Guy Montag]

The level of purposeful bullshit Primus is slinging is either first class troll drivel, or the delusional nonsense of a know-it-all.

Regardless, it's a win-win from strictly an entertainment value!

I'm no Remington fanboy, but the idea that you've got to dump $500 into every M700 to make it usable is hilarious.

TacticalDillhole summed it up perfectly, zero fucks given for what you shoot.

 

[Rthur]

The level of purposeful bullshit Primus is slinging is either first class troll drivel, or the delusional nonsense of a know-it-all.

Regardless, it's a win-win from strictly an entertainment value!

I'm no Remington fanboy, but the idea that you've got to dump $500 into every M700 to make it usable is hilarious.

TacticalDillhole summed it up perfectly, zero fucks given for what you shoot.

Well put Guy, the 700 aftermarket shadows all others combined.
This would also be the reason so many custom actions are a 700 footprint.

R

 

[Niles Coyote]

I look at this as a win and will be picking up a 20" when I see a deal.

 

[Kadams1563]

I admit the Bergera rifles are really nice for what you get. I would really like to shoot one and see how it compares to my fully built custom.


Only experience I have is a Savage and my Defiance (lol).


I have shot a 700 in the magpul stock and it was actually pretty nice. I actually like those stocks and they are cheap. Get a stock, magwell, and mags for cheap and bolt in a barreled action.


You are good to go for precision rifle with a lot less money then I have in my manners but it feels similar.


I hate Tapatalk with the new forum. It doesn't make paragraphs at all!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Badfinger]

 

[5RWill]

There is nothing wrong with the design of the 700 be it dated compared to some new preferred comp oriented actions or arguably better designs. The problem has been Remington's effort or lack there of to keep up with market trends. This is where the criticism stems from and IMHO rightfully so.

I prefer my customs don't get me wrong but at the end of the day a quality blank chambered by a quality smith on any action that is not out of spec is going to shoot, if you the shooter can shoot. I'd just have rather seen a 700/McRee combo for 1300$ if possible.

 

[G101489]

Every Remington Iv shot or have seen shot is a tac driver and 100% reliable. Guess myself and all the others that own good 700s just got lucky!

 

[sandwarrior]

There is nothing wrong with the design of the 700 be it dated compared to some new preferred comp oriented actions or arguably better designs. The problem has been Remington's effort or lack there of to keep up with market trends. This is where the criticism stems from and IMHO rightfully so.

I prefer my customs don't get me wrong but at the end of the day a quality blank chambered by a quality smith on any action that is not out of spec is going to shoot, if you the shooter can shoot. I'd just have rather seen a 700/McRee combo for 1300$ if possible.

I agree with what you are saying. I think the biggest issue is more that Remington isn't keeping pace with what's going on in the industry as much as what their quality has slipped. I've been critical of that but, it may not be as bad across the board as I see it. One criticism I had specifically was 1-12" twists in both .223/5.56 and .308. when you look at surplus sales though...all the bullets are optimized for that twist. While I push for new and better stuff, the masses still look to the 1960's and the myths that prevail.

In short, one ought to look at the best options for your, or your advisee's, most critical needs. The 700 is a solid system with the most aftermarket parts. Tikka is outstanding because of it's barrels, not stock and bedding. Mossberg, Savage and Ruger (RPR) come with the most usable options. They don't all shoot lights out, but they all shoot a helluva lot better than they used to.

Ultimately, custom is the way to go if you are serious about shooting. Pretty much, no one off the shelf rifle has it all. But, there are a lot of good starts.

 

[5RWill]

I agree with what you are saying. I think the biggest issue is more that Remington isn't keeping pace with what's going on in the industry as much as what their quality has slipped. I've been critical of that but, it may not be as bad across the board as I see it. One criticism I had specifically was 1-12" twists in both .223/5.56 and .308. when you look at surplus sales though...all the bullets are optimized for that twist. While I push for new and better stuff, the masses still look to the 1960's and the myths that prevail.

In short, one ought to look at the best options for your, or your advisee's, most critical needs. The 700 is a solid system with the most aftermarket parts. Tikka is outstanding because of it's barrels, not stock and bedding. Mossberg, Savage and Ruger (RPR) come with the most usable options. They don't all shoot lights out, but they all shoot a helluva lot better than they used to.

Ultimately, custom is the way to go if you are serious about shooting. Pretty much, no one off the shelf rifle has it all. But, there are a lot of good starts.

I agree. I had forgotten to mention their QC had slipped some least to my knowledge. It seems like somewhere in the early 2000s they started to try and appeal to a lower cost market making the transition to the SPS lineup and such.

I still am a big fan of the RPR. I know some will tout that the accuracy isn't acceptable, but i'm willing to bet with reloads any competent loader can achieve desirable results. At least ones that are more than adequate for the type of shooting we're doing. Which people often confuse with paper punching the smallest groups like in F-class. I can 1000% guarantee that i can put a 1 MOA rifle in the hands of Frank, Terry Cross, Brian Allen, George Gardner, Shannon Kay, etc. etc. and use a 1/4 MOA rifle myself and they will beat me every time. Don't get me wrong narrowing down that equation of the limiting factor is always a positive, and if the budget provides you can guarantee that it isn't the equipment, but it's hardly necessary. I've said it quite often since it's release if the RPR had been out in 2009 when i had started i wouldn't have my 700 5R. There isn't much out there that offers what the RPR does even at it's price, Savage stealth comes to mind but personally i dislike the savage actions.

I think the customs are warranted if you really want to do this for the long haul, if you shoot enough to appreciate the fine dining a custom offers, go for it.