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Remingtons Rebuttal
- Thread starter IRISHCYCLONE
- Start date
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
Well thought out response. Unfortunately, it won't make it to network TV as she noted. The media and certain other arms of public representation are always going to go after firearms manufacturers and MAKE UP their own evidence to support their "facts". Some of those were tragic stories, but the bottom line is people not paying attention to gun safety and then trying to blame an object that has no cognitive abilities.
Josh
Well thought out response. Unfortunately, it won't make it to network TV as she noted. The media and certain other arms of public representation are always going to go after firearms manufacturers and MAKE UP their own evidence to support their "facts". Some of those were tragic stories, but the bottom line is people not paying attention to gun safety and then trying to blame an object that has no cognitive abilities.
Josh
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
well done video by Rem.
Most who have an "accidental" discharge are too embarrassed to admit they messed up.
well done video by Rem.
Most who have an "accidental" discharge are too embarrassed to admit they messed up.
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CK_32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How did you post a video on snipers hide? lol</div></div>
The post video button in the full reply screen ... 5th button from the left
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CK_32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How did you post a video on snipers hide? lol</div></div>
The post video button in the full reply screen ... 5th button from the left
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
The masses aren't interested in the truth, thus why this is relegated to internet circulation vs. being aired by a major network...
Good none the less.
The masses aren't interested in the truth, thus why this is relegated to internet circulation vs. being aired by a major network...
Good none the less.
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
some of the aired discharges are pretty solid.....just saying. Its hard to say that there wasnt a discharge w/o pulling of the trigger.
some of the aired discharges are pretty solid.....just saying. Its hard to say that there wasnt a discharge w/o pulling of the trigger.
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">some of the aired discharges are pretty solid.....just saying. Its hard to say that there wasnt a discharge w/o pulling of the trigger. </div></div>
But if the individual is following the 4 basic rules of gun safety there would not have been tragic outcomes.
Don't point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy. If the lady who shot her son thru the horse trailer had followed that rule he would be alive.
I'm sure "I'm preaching to the choir" and that it's the average citizen who needs to learn these things,(the ones believing CNBC's story).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">some of the aired discharges are pretty solid.....just saying. Its hard to say that there wasnt a discharge w/o pulling of the trigger. </div></div>
But if the individual is following the 4 basic rules of gun safety there would not have been tragic outcomes.
Don't point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy. If the lady who shot her son thru the horse trailer had followed that rule he would be alive.
I'm sure "I'm preaching to the choir" and that it's the average citizen who needs to learn these things,(the ones believing CNBC's story).
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
Unfortunately,the damage has already been done and the "Court of Public Opinion" has already made up their mind.I personally think each "Accidental Discharge" should be taken on a case by case basis on it's own merit,but that is never going to happen.
Unfortunately,the damage has already been done and the "Court of Public Opinion" has already made up their mind.I personally think each "Accidental Discharge" should be taken on a case by case basis on it's own merit,but that is never going to happen.
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
Sadly Sandrat, I have to concur.
I can only hope the "Court of Public Opinion" finds a new case to try soon. Maybe another celebrity will do something stupid and give them something to wory about.
Sadly Sandrat, I have to concur.
I can only hope the "Court of Public Opinion" finds a new case to try soon. Maybe another celebrity will do something stupid and give them something to wory about.
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
What is really sad is the number of people on firearms related forums that buy the whole CNBC story with no questions asked.
Just look at the questions or comments we have had on this forum and on AR15.com.
What is really sad is the number of people on firearms related forums that buy the whole CNBC story with no questions asked.
Just look at the questions or comments we have had on this forum and on AR15.com.
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
I think it's a good thing that those who opinion can be formed by watching CNBC will stay away from Remington. Those are the one who don't follow the 10 commandments, think they are gunsmith and prone to accidental discharge. Remington is better off without them as customer.
Those with knowledge and respect gun will do research and will make an educated decision no matter what CNBC says.
I think it's a good thing that those who opinion can be formed by watching CNBC will stay away from Remington. Those are the one who don't follow the 10 commandments, think they are gunsmith and prone to accidental discharge. Remington is better off without them as customer.
Those with knowledge and respect gun will do research and will make an educated decision no matter what CNBC says.
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
File this story in the came folder with the whole "Black Talon" BS that happened years back.
Damn those evil black bullets, and those evil black rifles...
File this story in the came folder with the whole "Black Talon" BS that happened years back.
Damn those evil black bullets, and those evil black rifles...
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">some of the aired discharges are pretty solid.....just saying. Its hard to say that there wasnt a discharge w/o pulling of the trigger. </div></div>
Really? I can adjust a M700 trigger to do anything I want it to. Does that mean Rem700's are defective?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">some of the aired discharges are pretty solid.....just saying. Its hard to say that there wasnt a discharge w/o pulling of the trigger. </div></div>
Really? I can adjust a M700 trigger to do anything I want it to. Does that mean Rem700's are defective?
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tinbendur</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It would be real nice to see Remington sue and collect. Then maybe this folks would stop going after gun manufacturers. </div></div>
You're opening up a whole different world there. Remington right now is more into keeping their good name rather than pointing fingers like CNBC did. Also it shows that Remington has more balls then others due to the fact they aren't pointing fingers back at CNBC and just showing all the flawed material they used.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tinbendur</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It would be real nice to see Remington sue and collect. Then maybe this folks would stop going after gun manufacturers. </div></div>
You're opening up a whole different world there. Remington right now is more into keeping their good name rather than pointing fingers like CNBC did. Also it shows that Remington has more balls then others due to the fact they aren't pointing fingers back at CNBC and just showing all the flawed material they used.
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
So... if CNBC and the anti-gun crowd were to say, "the sky is blue", would you take issue with it?
There are at least enough questions about this case that to dismiss it out of hand because the flag has been raised by the "enemy" would be irresponsible. How many of you really *know* of what you speak? How many of you have *really* studied the evidence that *is* available to the public and have come to an informed decision?
How are all of you going to feel if in a few years Remington is finally forced to admit they knew there was a problem all these years and for whatever reason, did nothing?
I'm not saying they are guilty, but I look at the knee-jerk reaction of most here and wonder if we've lost the art of thinking for ourselves. How many of you realize that the original issue was discovered, according to Mike Walker, not on a trigger that was misadjusted or not maintained, but in the factory on new rifles?
It *is* possible that a "gun company", yes, one of those saintly institutions, clearly above question or suspicion, could be capable of making a mistake in judgement or actually do something wrong with full knowledge. And in my book, the odds of that go WAY up, when they are a wholly-owned subsidiary of a bean counting multi-national corporation.
Remington's response did nothing to prove that there is no problem. They simply employed the time honored technique of asking questions about the integrity of the witness, thus instilling doubt. Let's see the independent labs report showing several million cycles on a statistically relevant sample size, scientifically documenting the actual MTBF of the Walker trigger group.
Come on Remington, there is a way to really clear yourself here and regain the faith of your customers, and it's NOT tearing down your accusers with a slick "counter-hit piece".
John
So... if CNBC and the anti-gun crowd were to say, "the sky is blue", would you take issue with it?
There are at least enough questions about this case that to dismiss it out of hand because the flag has been raised by the "enemy" would be irresponsible. How many of you really *know* of what you speak? How many of you have *really* studied the evidence that *is* available to the public and have come to an informed decision?
How are all of you going to feel if in a few years Remington is finally forced to admit they knew there was a problem all these years and for whatever reason, did nothing?
I'm not saying they are guilty, but I look at the knee-jerk reaction of most here and wonder if we've lost the art of thinking for ourselves. How many of you realize that the original issue was discovered, according to Mike Walker, not on a trigger that was misadjusted or not maintained, but in the factory on new rifles?
It *is* possible that a "gun company", yes, one of those saintly institutions, clearly above question or suspicion, could be capable of making a mistake in judgement or actually do something wrong with full knowledge. And in my book, the odds of that go WAY up, when they are a wholly-owned subsidiary of a bean counting multi-national corporation.
Remington's response did nothing to prove that there is no problem. They simply employed the time honored technique of asking questions about the integrity of the witness, thus instilling doubt. Let's see the independent labs report showing several million cycles on a statistically relevant sample size, scientifically documenting the actual MTBF of the Walker trigger group.
Come on Remington, there is a way to really clear yourself here and regain the faith of your customers, and it's NOT tearing down your accusers with a slick "counter-hit piece".
John
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olympian</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Justice has nothing to do with truth..... </div></div>
There was a time when men of honor held ideals such as truth and justice, together, in high regard. Few are those men today.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olympian</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Justice has nothing to do with truth..... </div></div>
There was a time when men of honor held ideals such as truth and justice, together, in high regard. Few are those men today.
John
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
All I hope for from remington, is that they stop soldering on bolt handles, throw away that bag of ass X-mark Trigger, and stop using cast parts...
I *Truely* wish this kicks their quality control up half a dozen notches.
All I hope for from remington, is that they stop soldering on bolt handles, throw away that bag of ass X-mark Trigger, and stop using cast parts...
I *Truely* wish this kicks their quality control up half a dozen notches.
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So... if CNBC and the anti-gun crowd were to say, "the sky is blue", would you take issue with it?
There are at least enough questions about this case that to dismiss it out of hand because the flag has been raised by the "enemy" would be irresponsible. How many of you really *know* of what you speak? How many of you have *really* studied the evidence that *is* available to the public and have come to an informed decision?
How are all of you going to feel if in a few years Remington is finally forced to admit they knew there was a problem all these years and for whatever reason, did nothing?
I'm not saying they are guilty, but I look at the knee-jerk reaction of most here and wonder if we've lost the art of thinking for ourselves. How many of you realize that the original issue was discovered, according to Mike Walker, not on a trigger that was misadjusted or not maintained, but in the factory on new rifles?
It *is* possible that a "gun company", yes, one of those saintly institutions, clearly above question or suspicion, could be capable of making a mistake in judgement or actually do something wrong with full knowledge. And in my book, the odds of that go WAY up, when they are a wholly-owned subsidiary of a bean counting multi-national corporation.
Remington's response did nothing to prove that there is no problem. They simply employed the time honored technique of asking questions about the integrity of the witness, thus instilling doubt. Let's see the independent labs report showing several million cycles on a statistically relevant sample size, scientifically documenting the actual MTBF of the Walker trigger group.
Come on Remington, there is a way to really clear yourself here and regain the faith of your customers, and it's NOT tearing down your accusers with a slick "counter-hit piece".
John</div></div>
Their primary argument, inasmuch as I can tell from that video, is their claim that a 700 can <span style="font-weight: bold">only</span> discharge without trigger pull <span style="font-weight: bold">if</span> the trigger is improperly adjusted and/or poorly maintained.
What's <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> discussed in that video (unless it's in the last 2 minutes, as Youtube wouldn't load the last bit for me), is just what the paramters are of "poorly maintained" and how that relates to the design of the weapon. They make a major point out of attacking the theory of debris lodging behind the connector, but admit by logical deduction that lack of maintenance and cleaning can result in problems. Which leads one to ask..what problems are they implying are going to occur if you get debris into your trigger group?
At the end of the day, nothing is going to change here one way or another. One side is going to say that the blame lies on users for doing or not doing the wrong things, and the other side is going to say that it's the manufacturer's fault for not preventing those users from somehow making things go bang when they shouldn't. Obviously the 700 is a solid platform that works extremely well when used and maintained properly. And just as obviously, sometimes things can go wrong with one, just like any other mechanical device.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So... if CNBC and the anti-gun crowd were to say, "the sky is blue", would you take issue with it?
There are at least enough questions about this case that to dismiss it out of hand because the flag has been raised by the "enemy" would be irresponsible. How many of you really *know* of what you speak? How many of you have *really* studied the evidence that *is* available to the public and have come to an informed decision?
How are all of you going to feel if in a few years Remington is finally forced to admit they knew there was a problem all these years and for whatever reason, did nothing?
I'm not saying they are guilty, but I look at the knee-jerk reaction of most here and wonder if we've lost the art of thinking for ourselves. How many of you realize that the original issue was discovered, according to Mike Walker, not on a trigger that was misadjusted or not maintained, but in the factory on new rifles?
It *is* possible that a "gun company", yes, one of those saintly institutions, clearly above question or suspicion, could be capable of making a mistake in judgement or actually do something wrong with full knowledge. And in my book, the odds of that go WAY up, when they are a wholly-owned subsidiary of a bean counting multi-national corporation.
Remington's response did nothing to prove that there is no problem. They simply employed the time honored technique of asking questions about the integrity of the witness, thus instilling doubt. Let's see the independent labs report showing several million cycles on a statistically relevant sample size, scientifically documenting the actual MTBF of the Walker trigger group.
Come on Remington, there is a way to really clear yourself here and regain the faith of your customers, and it's NOT tearing down your accusers with a slick "counter-hit piece".
John</div></div>
Their primary argument, inasmuch as I can tell from that video, is their claim that a 700 can <span style="font-weight: bold">only</span> discharge without trigger pull <span style="font-weight: bold">if</span> the trigger is improperly adjusted and/or poorly maintained.
What's <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> discussed in that video (unless it's in the last 2 minutes, as Youtube wouldn't load the last bit for me), is just what the paramters are of "poorly maintained" and how that relates to the design of the weapon. They make a major point out of attacking the theory of debris lodging behind the connector, but admit by logical deduction that lack of maintenance and cleaning can result in problems. Which leads one to ask..what problems are they implying are going to occur if you get debris into your trigger group?
At the end of the day, nothing is going to change here one way or another. One side is going to say that the blame lies on users for doing or not doing the wrong things, and the other side is going to say that it's the manufacturer's fault for not preventing those users from somehow making things go bang when they shouldn't. Obviously the 700 is a solid platform that works extremely well when used and maintained properly. And just as obviously, sometimes things can go wrong with one, just like any other mechanical device.
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
Jrob
So even though CNBC's story was obviously biased and FULL of inaccuracies, the people who support Remingtons side are all blind followers?
The rifle is an icon, with a half century of credibility on it's side, and CNBC is well, CNBC...
Jrob
So even though CNBC's story was obviously biased and FULL of inaccuracies, the people who support Remingtons side are all blind followers?
The rifle is an icon, with a half century of credibility on it's side, and CNBC is well, CNBC...
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So... if CNBC and the anti-gun crowd were to say, "the sky is blue", would you take issue with it?
There are at least enough questions about this case that to dismiss it out of hand because the flag has been raised by the "enemy" would be irresponsible. How many of you really *know* of what you speak? How many of you have *really* studied the evidence that *is* available to the public and have come to an informed decision?
How are all of you going to feel if in a few years Remington is finally forced to admit they knew there was a problem all these years and for whatever reason, did nothing?
I'm not saying they are guilty, but I look at the knee-jerk reaction of most here and wonder if we've lost the art of thinking for ourselves. How many of you realize that the original issue was discovered, according to Mike Walker, not on a trigger that was misadjusted or not maintained, but in the factory on new rifles?
It *is* possible that a "gun company", yes, one of those saintly institutions, clearly above question or suspicion, could be capable of making a mistake in judgement or actually do something wrong with full knowledge. And in my book, the odds of that go WAY up, when they are a wholly-owned subsidiary of a bean counting multi-national corporation.
Remington's response did nothing to prove that there is no problem. They simply employed the time honored technique of asking questions about the integrity of the witness, thus instilling doubt. Let's see the independent labs report showing several million cycles on a statistically relevant sample size, scientifically documenting the actual MTBF of the Walker trigger group.
Come on Remington, there is a way to really clear yourself here and regain the faith of your customers, and it's NOT tearing down your accusers with a slick "counter-hit piece".
John </div></div>
So what are you saying here????
That irregardless of poor maintenance, neglect, careless handling, ignorance, disregard for safe handling that the manufactuerer is 'ALWAYs' liable for as long as the item they manufacture and sell is in existence????
Do we need to put the price of future liability, negligence, irresponibility onto the price like the aviation industry, you know pay for pilots mistakes for 50-60 yrs down the road because the Super Cub had a control cable break after only 35yrs of setting on the tarmac??
So if I don't pay attention to where I overturn my Lawnboy mower and my child falls onto the once new and sharpened blade and cuts an artery and dies that Lawnboy is at fault???? Lawnboy should have known to make a blade to outlast the possibilities of a possible accident??
Yes, it is a tragedy that a young child is now dead in the MT case! Yes it is a tragedy that 'his own mother was the cause' of his death but why is the 'human factor' irrelevant?? I may well be full of SD BS but my take on the reason the mother refuses to partake in conversations about the 'accidental' death of her son could well be that SHE is not sure exactly what she did at the time. I would sure want to think if it were me that I was in no way at fault! She told her husband and everyone else what she knew they wanted to hear and what she knew was proper procedure but is it as it happened?? I am sure she has played it through thousands of times and 'she' is the only one that knows for sure, or remembers it as she wanted it to happen. Yea, I may well be waaaaayyyyyyy off base with this theory but none of us was there and SHE is the only one directly involved and SHE may or may not have the facts straight in her head, then, now or never!!!! I am sure she will always question and ponder the chain of events. If for some reason after all these yrs everything became clear and she did pull the trigger or whatever how would all those family members, neighbors etc react. We all want to think we did the right thing at the time but sometimes perhaps our own mind/conscience isn't sure. For her sake I hope she forgives herself irregardless of the chain of events!
I still cannot understand why she had the rifle chamber loaded while horseback?? IIRC they were elk hunting and had returned to the trailor, correct??? In my younger days I covered hundreds of miles horseback, some of it hunting fox, coyote and deer and never carried a round in the chamber. Granted there are no bears here but to carry a loaded rig horseback in the mountains just doesn't seem to me to be an Einstein moment?
I had it happen to me once calling coyotes. Thought I seen a coyote move and slowly pushed off the safety......and bang!!!!! Scared the shit out of me and still does. However, I had adjusted the trigger, I had been fumbling with it prior to moving safety lever. Also I had it pointed in a safe direction!!!!! Who would have been at fault if I had shot my twin brother who was along??? NOT ME NOT ME NOT ME it was Remington!!!! Yea right!
Well I am done with my bitch fest and will never hold Remington or any company responsible for mistakes I personally make!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So... if CNBC and the anti-gun crowd were to say, "the sky is blue", would you take issue with it?
There are at least enough questions about this case that to dismiss it out of hand because the flag has been raised by the "enemy" would be irresponsible. How many of you really *know* of what you speak? How many of you have *really* studied the evidence that *is* available to the public and have come to an informed decision?
How are all of you going to feel if in a few years Remington is finally forced to admit they knew there was a problem all these years and for whatever reason, did nothing?
I'm not saying they are guilty, but I look at the knee-jerk reaction of most here and wonder if we've lost the art of thinking for ourselves. How many of you realize that the original issue was discovered, according to Mike Walker, not on a trigger that was misadjusted or not maintained, but in the factory on new rifles?
It *is* possible that a "gun company", yes, one of those saintly institutions, clearly above question or suspicion, could be capable of making a mistake in judgement or actually do something wrong with full knowledge. And in my book, the odds of that go WAY up, when they are a wholly-owned subsidiary of a bean counting multi-national corporation.
Remington's response did nothing to prove that there is no problem. They simply employed the time honored technique of asking questions about the integrity of the witness, thus instilling doubt. Let's see the independent labs report showing several million cycles on a statistically relevant sample size, scientifically documenting the actual MTBF of the Walker trigger group.
Come on Remington, there is a way to really clear yourself here and regain the faith of your customers, and it's NOT tearing down your accusers with a slick "counter-hit piece".
John </div></div>
So what are you saying here????
That irregardless of poor maintenance, neglect, careless handling, ignorance, disregard for safe handling that the manufactuerer is 'ALWAYs' liable for as long as the item they manufacture and sell is in existence????
Do we need to put the price of future liability, negligence, irresponibility onto the price like the aviation industry, you know pay for pilots mistakes for 50-60 yrs down the road because the Super Cub had a control cable break after only 35yrs of setting on the tarmac??
So if I don't pay attention to where I overturn my Lawnboy mower and my child falls onto the once new and sharpened blade and cuts an artery and dies that Lawnboy is at fault???? Lawnboy should have known to make a blade to outlast the possibilities of a possible accident??
Yes, it is a tragedy that a young child is now dead in the MT case! Yes it is a tragedy that 'his own mother was the cause' of his death but why is the 'human factor' irrelevant?? I may well be full of SD BS but my take on the reason the mother refuses to partake in conversations about the 'accidental' death of her son could well be that SHE is not sure exactly what she did at the time. I would sure want to think if it were me that I was in no way at fault! She told her husband and everyone else what she knew they wanted to hear and what she knew was proper procedure but is it as it happened?? I am sure she has played it through thousands of times and 'she' is the only one that knows for sure, or remembers it as she wanted it to happen. Yea, I may well be waaaaayyyyyyy off base with this theory but none of us was there and SHE is the only one directly involved and SHE may or may not have the facts straight in her head, then, now or never!!!! I am sure she will always question and ponder the chain of events. If for some reason after all these yrs everything became clear and she did pull the trigger or whatever how would all those family members, neighbors etc react. We all want to think we did the right thing at the time but sometimes perhaps our own mind/conscience isn't sure. For her sake I hope she forgives herself irregardless of the chain of events!
I still cannot understand why she had the rifle chamber loaded while horseback?? IIRC they were elk hunting and had returned to the trailor, correct??? In my younger days I covered hundreds of miles horseback, some of it hunting fox, coyote and deer and never carried a round in the chamber. Granted there are no bears here but to carry a loaded rig horseback in the mountains just doesn't seem to me to be an Einstein moment?
I had it happen to me once calling coyotes. Thought I seen a coyote move and slowly pushed off the safety......and bang!!!!! Scared the shit out of me and still does. However, I had adjusted the trigger, I had been fumbling with it prior to moving safety lever. Also I had it pointed in a safe direction!!!!! Who would have been at fault if I had shot my twin brother who was along??? NOT ME NOT ME NOT ME it was Remington!!!! Yea right!
Well I am done with my bitch fest and will never hold Remington or any company responsible for mistakes I personally make!
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
Remington solved the problem. They cranked the trigger pull WAY UP past normal. So, if you want to be able to pull the trigger, you'll have to adjust it yourself. Or, get it adjusted for you.
Just like all the other gun manufacturers.
So far as I know, the Walker trigger group was first installed on the Rem 721 and 722's (and 725's). It carried over to the model 700. It is adjustable and there are no real stops on where to adjust it. You have to do it yourself, and check it yourself. This very well could have led to the tragedies documented by CNBC.
I agree, I saw nothing in the video showing shit from shinola about how to step by step properly adjust the trigger. Let alone how to clean it.
I do say though that in both tragic cases they showed, not pointing a gun at someone or in their direction, could have avoided the consequences.
Remington solved the problem. They cranked the trigger pull WAY UP past normal. So, if you want to be able to pull the trigger, you'll have to adjust it yourself. Or, get it adjusted for you.
Just like all the other gun manufacturers.
So far as I know, the Walker trigger group was first installed on the Rem 721 and 722's (and 725's). It carried over to the model 700. It is adjustable and there are no real stops on where to adjust it. You have to do it yourself, and check it yourself. This very well could have led to the tragedies documented by CNBC.
I agree, I saw nothing in the video showing shit from shinola about how to step by step properly adjust the trigger. Let alone how to clean it.
I do say though that in both tragic cases they showed, not pointing a gun at someone or in their direction, could have avoided the consequences.
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So even though CNBC's story was obviously biased and FULL of inaccuracies, the people who support Remingtons side are all blind followers?</div></div>
Jrose,
"Obviously biased and FULL of inaccuracies". <span style="font-weight: bold">According to whom?</span> Remington and "the people who support Remingtons side"?
Have you ever been a juror? I have. Superior court. Rape and attempted murder. I was sworn to uphold the law and reserve judgement until the final argument. Until then I was to keep an open mind. When the prosecuting attorney presented his case, it seemed open and shut. Case closed. But I swore to listen in an unbiased manner. So I listened to the defense. Hmmm. Things not so clear now. Lots of really good points. This went on for two and a half weeks. Very good arguments both sides. I had to sort through the crap and make a decision.
This case is a lot like that. Good arguments both sides... IF you're unbiased. But be aware of the fact that being a gun owner has the STRONG tendency to sway your bias towards a gun company. The fact that the Remington 700 seems to have a great record does not mean that there are not more than a few islolated, unreported cases that may come to light now that there is some correlation. Intermittent failures are *extremely* hard to recreate, much less diagnose and fix. What if the failure mode is one in one million cycles? DO we just throw our hands up and say, "well it's too hard to fix, those people better practice good rifle safety"? I'm sorry, I would not be happy with that decision if *I* worked for that company.
Dig through the evidence. Think for yourself. Do not allow others to influence your decision. Come to your own conclusion. I have found as I've debated this topic, that my opinion is swayed from side to side with new evidence. This case is not closed. The verdict has not yet been made. I will say this. Remington has done a pathetic job of supporting their argument with ANY hard evidence or data other than, "we couldn't recreate the failure". So that begs MY question. JUST HOW HARD DID THEY TRY? Would it be in Remington's best interest to recreate these failures. I think not!! So why should we be surprised that they have not?
When Remington makes public the independent testing done by labs who have nothing to do with the firearms industry and shows statistically relevant sample groups tested into the millions of cycles for all four of the documented failure modes for this trigger design, I'll begin to listen to them and there argument about a "hatchet-job". Until then, the onus is on Remington to conclusively prove that these claims are foundless, without resorting to character assassinations and vague denials.
Be careful of where you put your allegiance.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So even though CNBC's story was obviously biased and FULL of inaccuracies, the people who support Remingtons side are all blind followers?</div></div>
Jrose,
"Obviously biased and FULL of inaccuracies". <span style="font-weight: bold">According to whom?</span> Remington and "the people who support Remingtons side"?
Have you ever been a juror? I have. Superior court. Rape and attempted murder. I was sworn to uphold the law and reserve judgement until the final argument. Until then I was to keep an open mind. When the prosecuting attorney presented his case, it seemed open and shut. Case closed. But I swore to listen in an unbiased manner. So I listened to the defense. Hmmm. Things not so clear now. Lots of really good points. This went on for two and a half weeks. Very good arguments both sides. I had to sort through the crap and make a decision.
This case is a lot like that. Good arguments both sides... IF you're unbiased. But be aware of the fact that being a gun owner has the STRONG tendency to sway your bias towards a gun company. The fact that the Remington 700 seems to have a great record does not mean that there are not more than a few islolated, unreported cases that may come to light now that there is some correlation. Intermittent failures are *extremely* hard to recreate, much less diagnose and fix. What if the failure mode is one in one million cycles? DO we just throw our hands up and say, "well it's too hard to fix, those people better practice good rifle safety"? I'm sorry, I would not be happy with that decision if *I* worked for that company.
Dig through the evidence. Think for yourself. Do not allow others to influence your decision. Come to your own conclusion. I have found as I've debated this topic, that my opinion is swayed from side to side with new evidence. This case is not closed. The verdict has not yet been made. I will say this. Remington has done a pathetic job of supporting their argument with ANY hard evidence or data other than, "we couldn't recreate the failure". So that begs MY question. JUST HOW HARD DID THEY TRY? Would it be in Remington's best interest to recreate these failures. I think not!! So why should we be surprised that they have not?
When Remington makes public the independent testing done by labs who have nothing to do with the firearms industry and shows statistically relevant sample groups tested into the millions of cycles for all four of the documented failure modes for this trigger design, I'll begin to listen to them and there argument about a "hatchet-job". Until then, the onus is on Remington to conclusively prove that these claims are foundless, without resorting to character assassinations and vague denials.
Be careful of where you put your allegiance.
John
Re: Remingtons Rebuttal
I will also point all of you back to this, as it seems to be the consensus that this is a maintenence or misadjusment issue. Apparently Mike Walker did NOT think so.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many of you realize that the original issue was discovered, according to Mike Walker, not on a trigger that was misadjusted or not maintained, but in the factory on new rifles?</div></div>
IIRC, it was in the first 200.
John
I will also point all of you back to this, as it seems to be the consensus that this is a maintenence or misadjusment issue. Apparently Mike Walker did NOT think so.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many of you realize that the original issue was discovered, according to Mike Walker, not on a trigger that was misadjusted or not maintained, but in the factory on new rifles?</div></div>
IIRC, it was in the first 200.
John
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