Rifle Scopes Replacement is here, Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x

[jrob300]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It just sucks to see a great new company with a lot of promise and a handful of solid products behind them get pummeled because they chose to try and meet OUR needs by stopping shipment to fix some points we weren't happy with as a community. </div></div>

If you're referring to my comments as pummeling, then you've missed my point. I think stopping shipments and addressing the problem was *exactly* the thing to do.

The two main points that have me peeved are:

A). "Vocal forum member" Jon A writes one of the first reviews and finds a couple problems. Jon A gets to keep his otherwise fully functional scope AND gets his money back.

B). Instead of clear communication about the "whats" that were being addressed (other than an admission that the turrets were too easy to rotate), really nothing else has been addressed. My expectations were set by Vortex when they had issues with the Razor rollout about the "what", the "why" the "how" and the "when".

Others may not understand my gripe.

John

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

Hey your point A is a fair point.

I think I can guess at what the difference is, though. Jon A got the scope. He found some problems. I would be willing to put money down that not only did he make hte forum post but based on some of his later responses, he also used their support channels.

Jon received product that was just not right.

Whereas you and I are both in the situation of we just don't have the product yet. Which we want and can immediately apply but don't have.

So Jon was handled by Vortex in a certain way because he "got broken stuff".

Whereas you and I do not yet have standing because we are enthusiasts waiting - like probably dozens of others - for product still finishing a second stage of R&D based on the problems noted in the pilot release to market.

Does it suck? Yeah.

Id also agree with you that the vortex guys have scaled back their participation in forums and such. They are seeing the challenge of 3 or 4 people who openly participate and might be re-thinking that at a company level

 

[Snakum]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDKC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In response to the previous posts about bushnell and falcon:

Bushnell: $100 more, and a ONE YEAR Warranty?
</div></div>

Completely wrong on both counts. Don't believe everything you read on the Errornet.

"Elite® Bullet-Proof Warranty
"No Questions Asked" one- year replacement (U.S. only)*
*Elite Only. This offer is limited to one original purchase refund per address. WARRANTY / REPAIR
ELITE® LIFETIME LIMITED WARRANTY
We are so proud of our Bushnell® ELITE® Riflescopes that their materials and workmanship are warranted to
be free of defects for the life of the ELITE Riflescope. The warranty is available to any owner of the ELITE
Riflescope. No receipt or warranty card is required. This warranty does not cover damages caused by misuse
or improper handling, installation or maintenance of the riflescope.
At our option, we will repair or replace any defective ELITE riflescope, which shall be your sole remedy under
this warranty. In no event shall we be liable for transportation costs to us, costs of removal or reinstallation
of the riflescope, or incidental or consequential damages. Some states do not allow the exclusion of
limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you.
No agent, representative, dealer or unauthorized employee of Bushnell has the authority to increase or
alter the obligation of this warranty."


And my Elite 4200 mil/mil FFP was $628 shipped from the fine folks at SWFA.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey your point A is a fair point.

I think I can guess at what the difference is, though. Jon A got the scope. He found some problems. I would be willing to put money down that not only did he make hte forum post but based on some of his later responses, he also used their support channels.

Jon received product that was just not right.

Whereas you and I are both in the situation of we just don't have the product yet. Which we want and can immediately apply but don't have.

So Jon was handled by Vortex in a certain way because he "got broken stuff".

Whereas you and I do not yet have standing because we are enthusiasts waiting - like probably dozens of others - for product still finishing a second stage of R&D based on the problems noted in the pilot release to market.

Does it suck? Yeah.

Id also agree with you that the vortex guys have scaled back their participation in forums and such. They are seeing the challenge of 3 or 4 people who openly participate and might be re-thinking that at a company level

</div></div>

You may have a point, I didn't see it from *that* perspective. Not unusual really. I can be quite shortsighted at times.

I don't have to like it though.

I'd *still* like to know what other "small things they weren't quite happy with" were, what they've changed and what was done to fix the turrets. Part of it *is* that I used to be (always will be) an engineer. I can't help myself. I like to know stuff. I like to see how things work and how others solve problems. I also want to know that I believe it's actually going to work, since I'm going to buy it.

John

 

[VortexSam]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey your point A is a fair point.

I think I can guess at what the difference is, though. Jon A got the scope. He found some problems. I would be willing to put money down that not only did he make hte forum post but based on some of his later responses, he also used their support channels.

Jon received product that was just not right.

Whereas you and I are both in the situation of we just don't have the product yet. Which we want and can immediately apply but don't have.

So Jon was handled by Vortex in a certain way because he "got broken stuff".

Whereas you and I do not yet have standing because we are enthusiasts waiting - like probably dozens of others - for product still finishing a second stage of R&D based on the problems noted in the pilot release to market.

Does it suck? Yeah.

Id also agree with you that the vortex guys have scaled back their participation in forums and such. They are seeing the challenge of 3 or 4 people who openly participate and might be re-thinking that at a company level

</div></div>

You're right, we have scaled back a little bit on how much we've been participating in the forums.

To be totally honest, it was getting to the point where I was getting inundated with PM's on multiple different forums and I just couldn't keep up all the time, so I've tried to scale back my own presence a bit. Scott's done a good job of picking up the slack, but I really should probable be on here more than I have been.

I'm going to try to do better about that and hopefully between the two of us we can communicate with you guys better. I may not always be able to answer all PMs with lightning speed, but I'll try the best I can.

Right now my main focus is on making sure that everything is going smoothly with the modifications we're making to the turrets on the PST's.

I absolutely hate having to make you guys wait. I also hate not being able to give anyone any kind of date on when to expect them, but what it really comes down to is until we have them here in our facility and they've been tested to be 100% satisfactory, we won't know. Just know that this is our top priority and we are working as fast as we can.

-Sam

 

[jrob300]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And my Elite 4200 mil/mil FFP was $628 shipped from the fine folks at SWFA. </div></div>

If they'd come out with an EBR or MP8 (especially if it gave 15 mil) style reticle I'd be on that like white on rice. That's a great price on a mostly-proven (the FFP part is a question mark) mechanically robust design. I do wish they'd get a little more lo-pro on their knobs though. I bet that thing would kick brass back in my chamber just like the Falcon.

I bet you'll really enjoy that scope, Snakum.

John

 

[jrob300]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

...

 

[Scott_at_Vortex]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

We are very sorry that some of you have been feeling neglected. I do my best to get on here and let you guys know what I can, but sometimes I just can't make it everyday.So if you send me a PM and I dont answer you that day or even the next its not because I am ignoring or dodging you, but rather I just have not checked my PM's,this could be because I didn't have time to make it to this site that day, possibly missed the PM icon,out of the office,or if it is the weekend I normally do not have internet access.
We are doing everything we can to get these scopes out. I can promise you we are just as frustrated as you are. It is just gonna take little time while we work out these issues.
We will try to be a little more active ,but please understand that sometimes it is just impossible to make it to all of the forums, especially considering we are also working.

Scott

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

I don't have a dog in this fight, BUT I've been reading with interest the back and forth between the various factions. Perhaps this is an object lesson in marketing that hyping a roll out and more importantly pushing for the Pre-buy orders on a new product is risky AT BEST. Maybe better to just develop it, thoroughly test it, maybe quietly get a few in the hands of some beta testers and get it out on the street right the 1st time. AND THEN AND ONLY THEN when the product is right, THEN hype the product and beat the internet markets up just before it comes out. I may be wrong, but it appears that these "pre-buy orders" were pushed WAY WAY before the product was anywhere close to being ready. That, my friends, is playing with fire and risking the backlash you're seeing here right now. I'm sure Vortex would have sold as many or more PSTs if they had sat on the roll-out for a while and stayed Mumm on the hype.

In these days of instant gratification and speed of light information - hype by its very nature needs to stay short lived or there will be fan burnout if the hype itself drags on too long. Because by the time the product hits the streets, the expectations have grown and morphed too high that even if the product is perfect - there will still be some who are dissappointed because it doesn't meet their over-inflated expectations.

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't have a dog in this fight, BUT I've been reading with interest the back and forth between the various factions. Perhaps this is an object lesson in marketing that hyping a roll out and more importantly pushing for the Pre-buy orders on a new product is risky AT BEST. Maybe better to just develop it, thoroughly test it, maybe quietly get a few in the hands of some beta testers and get it out on the street right the 1st time. AND THEN AND ONLY THEN when the product is right, THEN hype the product and beat the internet markets up just before it comes out. I may be wrong, but it appears that these "pre-buy orders" were pushed WAY WAY before the product was anywhere close to being ready. That, my friends, is playing with fire and risking the backlash you're seeing here right now. I'm sure Vortex would have sold as many or more PSTs if they had sat on the roll-out for a while and stayed Mumm on the hype.

In these days of instant gratification and speed of light information - hype by its very nature needs to stay short lived or there will be fan burnout if the hype itself drags on too long. Because by the time the product hits the streets, the expectations have grown and morphed too high that even if the product is perfect - there will still be some who are dissappointed because it doesn't meet their over-inflated expectations. </div></div>

See: "Gartner Hype Cycle"

Applies to physical goods (such as riflescopes) every bit as much as it does to computer stuff

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't have a dog in this fight, BUT I've been reading with interest the back and forth between the various factions. Perhaps this is an object lesson in marketing that hyping a roll out and more importantly pushing for the Pre-buy orders on a new product is risky AT BEST. Maybe better to just develop it, thoroughly test it, maybe quietly get a few in the hands of some beta testers and get it out on the street right the 1st time. AND THEN AND ONLY THEN when the product is right, THEN hype the product and beat the internet markets up just before it comes out. I may be wrong, but it appears that these "pre-buy orders" were pushed WAY WAY before the product was anywhere close to being ready. That, my friends, is playing with fire and risking the backlash you're seeing here right now. I'm sure Vortex would have sold as many or more PSTs if they had sat on the roll-out for a while and stayed Mumm on the hype.

In these days of instant gratification and speed of light information - hype by its very nature needs to stay short lived or there will be fan burnout if the hype itself drags on too long. Because by the time the product hits the streets, the expectations have grown and morphed too high that even if the product is perfect - there will still be some who are dissappointed because it doesn't meet their over-inflated expectations. </div></div>

See: "Gartner Hype Cycle"

Applies to physical goods (such as riflescopes) every bit as much as it does to computer stuff

</div></div>

Ha! I didn't even go to Harvard Business School and I came up with essentially the same thing.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

...

 

[HellsCanyonArmory]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

Jrob,

imho, I think you're being a bit harsh. How else would you expect a response (even if it wasn't directed directly to you)? Would you rather they say "quit whining, cancel you're order if you feel that way"?

I for one appreciate and agree with pretty much everything Vortex has done with the current situation (obviously things could've been handled different in the beginning, but like many things of today, they realize their "NOW" situation and are doing what they can). I appreciate not hearing anything over them blowing smoke up our asses about when they expect to have the scopes out. They ARE working out the bugs, I 'suspect' they are talking to their folks at QC to reduce the possibilities of canted reticles and retrofitting all the scopes with tighter turrets. How else would you have them handle the situation? You don't like people showering you with warm fuzzies, what exactly do you want from them? They have told us they are updated and fixing the scopes and they will get them out to us ASAP. They've handled all problems with their first shipment with absolute class and integrity.

Mike

 

[leonoe]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

Niles, if you have any more experiences to share on the PST, would love to hear about it... Still have one on order and I'm sure others would be interested in hearing about any new 'discoveries' or nuances you've come across.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leonoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Niles, if you have any more experiences to share on the PST, would love to hear about it... Still have one on order and I'm sure others would be interested in hearing about any new 'discoveries' or nuances you've come across. </div></div>

No new discoveries or nuances to report. I did take it out to the range again today. Got to show it off to a fellow range member that has one on order and his words were WOW (a good wow)!

I ran it from 200 through 1000 and it was tracking back and forth several times fine. Very few hits with it at 1000, but that was due to what the rifle was being feed and not anything to do with the scope. A few days ago I decided to throw the rifle in my Eberlstock back pack to see if the turrets would move and 6 out of 6 times they did not. But I still need to take it for a hike for a few miles before calling it good. In short, I like the scope. I love the reticle and FFP feature. My only negative is the turret resistance. But time will tell, I may be making more out of that than needed. If it will ride all day on my back, going in and out of the pack, while in the field without self adjusting, I will be a very happy man.

 

[HellsCanyonArmory]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

Great to hear Niles! I'm very stoked to have mine in the mail... just got word that my barrel will be shipping out this week so all I need now is the scope! Pretty sure I can borrow a buddies to get the rifle figured out if its gonna be more than a month or so but as long as its here for Oct. 10 I'll be happy... Not to mention I might not even rifle hunt this year if I get lucky in Sept with the bow!

Mike

 

[Quickoz]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

Niles Im looking forward to the next part of your review. Im now sitting closer to the FFP camp then SFP and this looks like a good option if they can get the bugs ironed out. If not, I may go for a NF NXS still.

 

[leonoe]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

Niles, thanks for the update... really looking forward to getting mine!

 

[USACS]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

I've been waiting a long time for my PST scopes (2.5-10x MRAD and 4-16x50FFP MRAD). As it stands right now, I am VERY frustrated with the wait. I applaud Vortex for doing the right thing and making sure that the scope is 100% before they ship it. My big issue is that they can't/won't give an ETA on the scopes. I know that it could be September or even January before I ever see a scope show up. Kudos to them for not giving out false hope, but even a crude timeline would be appreciated.

But for me, I think my biggest frustration comes from the fact that I literally have 3 rifles sitting around waiting for optics, and I don't know when I'll be able to shoot them.

All that being said, I won't cancel my order. I think these scopes are too much of a good thing and I don't want to wait forever for something even remotely similar in features to pop up.

 

[kurt]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

They have given a eta: When they are done properly

 

[Scott_at_Vortex]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leonoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Niles, if you have any more experiences to share on the PST, would love to hear about it... Still have one on order and I'm sure others would be interested in hearing about any new 'discoveries' or nuances you've come across. </div></div>

No new discoveries or nuances to report. I did take it out to the range again today. Got to show it off to a fellow range member that has one on order and his words were WOW (a good wow)!

I ran it from 200 through 1000 and it was tracking back and forth several times fine. Very few hits with it at 1000, but that was due to what the rifle was being feed and not anything to do with the scope. A few days ago I decided to throw the rifle in my Eberlstock back pack to see if the turrets would move and 6 out of 6 times they did not. But I still need to take it for a hike for a few miles before calling it good. In short, I like the scope. I love the reticle and FFP feature. <span style="font-weight: bold">My only negative is the turret resistance.</span> But time will tell, I may be making more out of that than needed. If it will ride all day on my back, going in and out of the pack, while in the field without self adjusting, I will be a very happy man.

</div></div> I think most are aware of this ,but I just wanted to reiterate that once we have the retrofit available for this we will certainly be more than happy to take care of it for you.



Scott

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USACS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My big issue is that they can't/won't give an ETA on the scopes. I know that it could be September or even January before I ever see a scope show up. Kudos to them for not giving out false hope, but even a <span style="font-weight: bold">crude timeline </span>would be appreciated.

</div></div>

Look what them giving a "crude timeline" and pushing pre-buys in the 1st place got them....

 

[marc308]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

I saw today that Midway pushed back their shipping date for the PST from July 31st, to August 11th.

 

[cuffm4615]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

HOLLY CRAP!! the mil/mil model shows 08/11 like you mentioned marc308 but the MOA model (of which i'm waiting on 2 scopes) shows 01-07-11 thats ridiculous if it's accurate. This is really starting to suck.

 

[Austincqc]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

JEez jrob....it sounded like you just broke up with vortex with that dramatic post. LOl. I think we are all very eager for these.

TO those that have them already and ard taking the time to post pics and tell us their stories, thank-you!

 

[jrob300]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

...

 

[jasonk]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

Now I haven't read every post in this thread, just don't have that much time, but am I really reading the ones I did right?

Are people actually complaining that Vortex is not releasing more scopes until they get them right? Good for Vortex, that's the way it should be done.

And are people also complaining that Scott and Sam aren't on here enough answering questions? Holy hell, ask a question about a Leupold or Bushnell scope....then PM me when a company representative actually answers it....I'll bet I never get that PM.

We are very fortunate to have Vortex making scopes, they have forced other manufacturers to start making mil/mil options at reasonable prices. We're also lucky to have Scott and Sam here, they are by far the most involved scope manufacturer here.

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrtoyz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just sold my 308 getting a 338 as well.

JRob what is your zero? Falcon 5-25 (75moa) right?
Been talking to Paul at Vortex about rail moa. As I remember from Ballsitic FTE, we need 27.43mils to get to 2000yards. (300smk, 2700fps)
<span style="font-weight: bold">I just dont see how you can keep a reasonable zero and get to 2000 yards on a 20or30moa rail and the new Vortex.
</span>
-T </div></div>

The 6-24 PST has 19 mil total travel. Divide that in 2 = 9.5 mil. Add approx. 5.5 mil for 20moa rail = 15 mil. Reticle gives 9 mil at the bottom. 15 + 9 = 24 mil. Just barely...
</div></div>

Feel compelled to revisit this...

The above is true IF and ONLY IF the PST's actually have the 19 mil of advertised total elevation. I played with a Vortex Viper 6.5-20 which is supposed to have the same 68 MOA/19 mil and it actually only had 62 MOA or 17 mil. Not enough room for margin...

So you're right mrtoyz, even with a 30 moa base, there's not enough travel to make it to 2K with a 100 yd. zero. Disappointing.

John

 

[CSTactical]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

We are very fortunate to have the amount of manufactures posting and addressing question here.

I very glad to see Vortex is doing all in their power to make a good scope even better before they go full speed. I’m sure Vortex is MORE anxious than ALL OF US to get them out to market. We have seen companies in the past just RUN with the project and it has turned ALL BAD.

Mike @ CST

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So you're right mrtoyz, even with a 30 moa base, there's not enough travel to make it to 2K with a 100 yd. zero. Disappointing.
</div></div>

I would be curious if the rest of the community really expected an optic that could make 2k yards with a 100 yard zero at this price point?

Let alone with all of the other features?

 

[Quickoz]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

If your wnating to make 2k. You might as well go for a NXS with the 110MOA of adjustment.

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So you're right mrtoyz, even with a 30 moa base, there's not enough travel to make it to 2K with a 100 yd. zero. Disappointing.
</div></div>

I would be curious if the rest of the community really expected an optic that could make 2k yards with a 100 yard zero at this price point?

Let alone with all of the other features? </div></div>

A small part of my disappointment was that the scope I saw did *not* have the advertised travel. If I can't count on a company to accurately communicate what their product will do, how can I make an informed choice?

How many of the "community" intend to shoot at 2k ? Or actually do?

I do.

I can't be disappointed that a product doesn't deliver something that's important to *me*? If it's not important to you then fine. Move along. I wasn't bashing it. I wish it had more. No harm, no foul.

I was asked a question. I was wrong. I corrected my answer and gave my resultant conclusion. Disappointing.

In all actuality I'm looking at 2.5K because there are powders and bullets in the design cycle that will allow us to do things we never thought possible. If you read the thread on "308, RL17 and 208 Amax" you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about.

Do I have high expectations. Yup. I guarantee that if SOMEBODY didn't have high expectations, scope companies would not be building mil/mil FFP's for a niche market.

This IS a big enough deal to me to disqualify it. I will have to move up the food chain.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quickoz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If your wnating to make 2k. You might as well go for a NXS with the 110MOA of adjustment. </div></div>

Quick,

I'd love to own a NF, but I really can't bring myself to go back to SFP. I feel like I would lose so much. So I'm forced to look at the F1 and that's a LOOONG stretch with a few products between here and there that must be considered.

The new Leupold ER/T M5 FFP's look interesting... and expensive for what they are, but not many choices, hence my hope that Vortex could let me have my cake and eat it.

John

 

[sharac]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

I wonder if instead of Vortex the name of the company would be different. Would people still tolerate such behavior. Knob clicks/resistance is not something you go and check after you ship first batch now is it or better yet WAS IT? I've seen people here go nuts about this scope and those in a hard spot now did nothing to cool things down (i guess they had future $$$ dancing around). IOR got really fried on their 3-18 reliability and i think same will happen here soon as more and more people will loose their patience.
I agree that guys at Vortex are trying and probably in the end they will deliver on the hopes of many

but these entire business practices are sickening to me - funny thing is i'm more bothered by peoples "enthusiasm" (to put it mildly) and blind faith then by companies exploiting that by launching new/newer/fancier stuff that does (or DOESN'T

)same thing as previous ones did

.
S&B announced new 3-20 and short dot (screwed a bit with that one also eh?) set the date and as it all seems dates will be met with expected quality - but can one be 100% even in the case of Bender i'd say NO and to be safe one should wait atleast a few months to see if that is the case. I guess IT disease release now and patch later has spread to many other sectors of industry...

Before anyone goes postal about me dissing Vortex or anyone else my whole point is we as consumers are to blame for the way companies have started to act. Obsession with new toys has caused serious drop in quality and i'm sure if someone did research on product development process one will find that product dev. cycles are smaller, time for QC and evaluation shorter and basic design process accelerated to accommodate this social/economic sickness we've all caught (especially in the last decade)...

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

Sharac,

You raise some very valid points. I think for most of us the promise of the Holy Grail causes us to lose our minds and hope against hope, despite all the facts that point otherwise. I try very hard NOT to be a fanboy, but probably got caught up in the hype to begin with too. Perhaps it's why I'm less than tolerant at this juncture... pendulum swing.

But I have to say, you're spot on, if this was a product rollout by a company starting in B or L, there would have been public lynchings. But those companies have a proven track record of NOT listening to their customers. Time will tell just how different V is.

John

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

I don't make scopes but I do and have worked for companies that intentionally do not share proprietary or inside information with the customer.
It sounds like there is an expectation that this company share with anyone who demands it any and all information on the companies activities. Really?
Hopefully we can see what feedback this company has provided as a bonus, not a mandate.
IMO they should not be punished for any customer service they have provided.

 

[Quickoz]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

Guys let me put something into consideration, If cost is an issue, let me say that you guys have it very easy indeed compared to us down here in Australia. I have seen this vortex advertised for 1200 AUD on some aussie sites and the NXS scopes are all a minimum of 1900 AUD for SFP 3.5-15x50 thats not even with zero stop or mil turrets. For example, the NXS 3.5-15x50 MLR Mil/Mil is 2220 AUD. Thats about ohh maybe 2000 USD and the F1 for us will probably be 2500 - 3000AUD when you guys can get it for 2290 USD. The Costs for us are more but we have to pay to get the same level of quality that you guys get for less, much less. Please take that into consideration. Also the price inst everything, look at the company's track record, product reliablility, history, etc.

Live by the axiom, buy once, cry once. Or you will find yourself upgrading all the time and cost much more in the long run.

I dont work for any scope company neither am I rich, I'm a 20yr old contractor who lives pay to pay and takes a bloody while to save to get stuff like this.

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

but if you buy once and cry once you only have one scope. What do you put on your other rifles?

 

[Quickoz]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

Jeffersonv, what I mean is that its better to buy something you KNOW will work compoared to something that may work. Im not bashing Vortex, Heck, Im still considering the 4-16x50 FFP MRAD for my rifle but what keeps coming back is that they are not proven yet and given the cost, It would be better to maybe pay a lil more and get a well proven and tested scope then a new one and have some risk. I currently have a Bushnell 5-15x40 Tactical on loan from a mate uintil I get a new scope, hopefully this year. I could go with the new Bushnell FFP or try the Vortex FFP, but if they dont do what I want and/or am not happy with them, Im going to end up getting what I should have gotten in the long run but spending more money to get to that same conclusion. I hope you follow what I mean.

Not all my rifles are scoped, really, the only one that is, is my Remington 308 build, the rest are open sighted due to choice. I do have other scopes that sit on my rimifre rifles from time to time until I get a few more rifles to build from. But now, they are used for testing rounds or for when I feel like throwing them on.

 

[fdkay]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

You know, what I find amusing is that when it was first revealed that these scopes were to be assembled in the Philippines, I voiced my concerns over quality and the ability to meet timelines. Of course there were numerous responses from rabid Vortex supporters that stated there was no need to fear, everything would be absolutely perfect, because it was, after all, Vortex.
Now, I am no expert, and I do not know the background of the defenders of everything Vortex, but I did live in the Philippines for about 5 1/2 years (wonderful place, wonderful people). I've been married to the same wonderful Filipina lady for 27 years.
So, I do know a bit about the culture and the way things are done there.
Personally, I would have been much more confident had these been assembled in Korea. They have the ability to turn out very competitive, very high quality products and they do it all the time.
The Philippines is a major player in what industry?
They are a hard working, extremely talented people. If they have a vested interest in customer satisfaction, you will get an excellent product (I had a custom bicycle made at a local shop there, excellent work). However, when they are simply an employee of a company and have no vested interest, the dynamic changes. I have seen it.

 

[Austincqc]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know, what I find amusing is that when it was first revealed that these scopes were to be assembled in the Philippines, I voiced my concerns over quality and the ability to meet timelines. Of course there were numerous responses from rabid Vortex supporters that stated there was no need to fear, everything would be absolutely perfect, because it was, after all, Vortex.
Now, I am no expert, and I do not know the background of the defenders of everything Vortex, but I did live in the Philippines for about 5 1/2 years (wonderful place, wonderful people). I've been married to the same wonderful Filipina lady for 27 years.
So, I do know a bit about the culture and the way things are done there.
Personally, I would have been much more confident had these been assembled in Korea. They have the ability to turn out very competitive, very high quality products and they do it all the time.
The Philippines is a major player in what industry?
They are a hard working, extremely talented people. If they have a vested interest in customer satisfaction, you will get an excellent product (I had a custom bicycle made at a local shop there, excellent work). However, when they are simply an employee of a company and have no vested interest, the dynamic changes. I have seen it. </div></div>

I disagree with you in part. I've owned products handmade for me from all over the east. The best products that I've used came from Japan. A wallet that I've had in my pocket for 5 years is still getting compliments and the swords I train with are perfect. That's just my experience. My buddy lived in Korea for a year and bought three or four suits that were custom made for him there and a ski jacket and pants. The suits fell apart after they were dry cleaned once. Literally fell apart. The ski jacket and ski pants held up to his first trip to Vail where he fell numerous times and ran a few black diamonds for a little over 6 days straight. The jacket and pants are perfect.

I think quality control issues aren't as much an issue as they are expected. Even the best trained person will have a hang over on Friday or really bad Monday and mess something up once in a while. That's why there's a warrantee. Vortex is great when it comes to their CS and Warrantee work. I think at this point, instead of releasing a few hundred scopes with a high margin of error or faults that would come back for repair/replacement, they're saving us the headache and getting it straightened out first.

I, for one, appreciate it.

 

[Benjamin_Breeg]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

It comes down to specs. Even China is perfectly capable of turning out quality products, that's just not generally the reason people manufacture there. It depends on the quality standard you hold them to. There's a lot of speculation on root cause without much evidence.

As for the turrets, Vortex either:

1- didn't have a requirement
2- had an incorrect requirement
3- had a good requirement but didn't do verification
4- didn't do any validation, which would have overcome any of the above 3 points

I'm betting on #4.

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

It could be a combination of the above. Scott @ Liberty Optics had commented in his Shot Show blog that the pre-production PST's had turrets that were a little light. He said the few that he got in June, and then sent to customers, were MUCH better. He didn't say so specifically, but it sounded like he thought they were OK. Apparently a few customers feel otherwise, so they (turrets) may be on the ragged edge.

So, it's possible their original requirement was not adequate, but they DID respond to input. Getting turret feel, resistance AND proper function the first time, is quite a trick, which is why this is taking so long. The last thing that Vortex wants now is for one of us to find the little surprise waiting in the redesign.

I don't believe this has ANYTHING to do with country of origin, although, it would be a lot easier for Engineers in Wisconsin to be in the middle of things if they were made in Wisconsin. Once this gets worked out, the where should not necessarily be a factor as long as Vortex has their requirements clearly specified and the people and processes in place to monitor and respond.

John

 

[Niles Coyote]

Replacement is here, Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x

<span style="font-size: 26pt">Its Here, Thank you Vortex! </span>


Vortex asked me to ship my PST back to them and also covered the FedEx shipping cost both ways. I sent mine off Friday and the replacement arrived today. WOW...

I would post pictures but it looks just like the original. I mounted it to my rifle and ran some checks with the collimator. It is tracking true 1/10 mil's for the first 10 mils, that was as far as I went.

The reticule showed no visible canting through the testing. The glass appears to be just as good as the old one and possible better. More testing will tell.

My only complaint with the 1st PST was the turret resistance was to light.

<span style="font-size: 20pt">I am happy to say this has been corrected!</span>

Speical Thank you to Julie and Kelli for your assistance!

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Replacement is here, Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x

Excellent news! Also excellent that some FFP's are shipping obviously

 

[rc2125]

Re: Replacement is here, Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x

That was quick, good deal. Good to hear they got the turrets right.

 

[HellsCanyonArmory]

Re: Replacement is here, Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x

SWEET!

Mike