Results From a First Time Reloader and Some Questions

[Stangs55]

I had previously posted asking for help getting started with the right equipment for reloading. I appreciate all the help for a new guy...

I decided to actually start by loading for my .223 and .308 Larue AR's...something that I've been told in hindsight was like trying to learn the hard way. I didn't want to start with handguns because I'm looking for accuracy, not a way to save a penny. I also didn't want to start with bolt guns because my go-to is a 300 RUM and I don't want to spend the money on those components while I'm still learning. So far I've loaded about 100 rounds for my .223 and 100 rounds for my .308 of varying powder/bullet combinations. Bascially I referenced Hornady, Sierra, Lyman, and Lee in order to find a decent 5 step ladder that would take my powder from minimum charge to just under maximum charge...needless to say, I'm far from fine-tuning as I would often make steps of 1.0 grains between groups.

Work has been crazy busy, so I have been unable to make my way to the range until last night...and even then I was racing the sun. I wanted to compare my reloads to some factory black hills and only had time for 5 groups of 5 shots before it got too dark.

The top picture below was 6 shots with a box of black hills 52 gr SMK. 100 yards.

The bottom picture was my best 5 shot group from a reload (52 gr SMK, Benchmark 25.0, lapua brass, CCI #41). 100 yards

I'm really excited about these results. I have previously been underwhelmed by the accuracy out of this rifle (Larue Costa 14.5" .223, 1/8 twist) using factory ammo...it's exciting to see how well it can actually perform when fed the right ammo. I look forward to tweaking this load further...but I'm not sure exactly how to improve it.

Anyways...through the course of learning, I've got a couple more questions.

1. How much variability should I expect when seating bullets?
Using a Redding Competition bullet seater for both my .223 and .308, I have been frustrated trying to get bullets to consistently seat at the same depth. Since I'm loading for an AR, I have to load for mag length. Now before you say it, I'm also using a Hornady Bullet Comparator to measure from the ogive as well...but even this varies. So let's say I'm shooting for an COAL of 2.800 and load 2 rounds +/0 0.001 that are from each other...my third or fourth round can all of a sudden be 2.810 or 2.990 and the same will hold true when measuring from the ogive. My OCD nature does not like this. So I end up measuring every single load and adjusting my micrometer on the seating die with almost every bullet. Bad idea? Towards the end of my last loading session, I started measuring some bullets from the ogive before loading them and sorting them out to see if it affected seating depth...but even for two bullets with an identical measurement, I could see +/- 0.008 in seating depth.

2. Does #1 even matter?
I know that it's all relative...but will a bullet shot with a OAL of 2.990 be different than one shot with 2.810? From what I've read, it should be very minor...but this should theoretically make a difference. So then how do I avoid this?

3. I've loaded mainly SMK, but I also recently loaded 50 rounds of .308 A-Max and the varibility was much less...so is this a common thing that is seen with SMK bullets?

Thanks again for all the help and advice.

 

[Weber]

I have great results with A-max's, but the smk are good as well and both should perform pretty closely.

I seat my bullets consistently at the same COL. If you want consistent shots and groups, having each round consistent is a major key to success. If you are just loading plinking rounds, it's not a it deal.

 

[rduckwor]

SO the lower pix is a five shot group of your hand loads? Well, bucko, looks like you hit the jackpot.

Load some more using the same formula and try them. If they're consistently good, you're there. Don't change anything with that combo as long as the velocity is acceptable.

As for OAL, the meplats (tips) on SMK's (as well as some other bullets) vary widely, so measuring OAL is a constant source of irritation in many cases.

Better to get a comparator and measure to ogive which is more consistent. Sinclair makes some nice ones in the form of the "hex" nut comparators that are cheap and effective.

Good Luck

 

[bruddah]

As mentioned, don't worry about the overall length. As long as they all fit into the mag, you should be good to go.

Measuring to the ogive though, they should be within a few thousandths of each other. You'll need a comparator for this though. I use the Hornady set of comparators.

 

[jdonovan]

So let's say I'm shooting for an COAL of 2.800 and load 2 rounds +/0 0.001 that are from each other...my third or fourth round can all of a sudden be 2.810 or 2.990 and the same will hold true when measuring from the ogive.

if you are getting a .020 variance measuring from the ogive... then something is not right with your setup. 001-002 I'd be able to live with, 20 thou... no.

 

[MEANS42]

if you are getting a .020 variance measuring from the ogive... then something is not right with your setup. 001-002 I'd be able to live with, 20 thou... no.

Your OAL variances are unacceptable. 0.18 is a big difference on a reloading bench. I don't let me OAL tolerances slip below +/- 0.003. Something is wrong. Let's get it figured out so you don't have to be constantly changing the dies.

 

[Cordova13]

Fairly new to reloading also. I had a 100 bullets of sierra that were .01 variance too much? Just got more from 3rd gen and now their within .003

 

[jdonovan]

I had a 100 bullets of sierra that were .01 variance too much? Just got more from 3rd gen and now their within .003

Within.... ?????

length OAL/ogive
width
weight

 

[Cordova13]

Within.... ?????

length OAL/ogive
width
weight

Sorry should have been more specific.

sierra 175 smk 308

Dont remember the exact length but the first box I bought were getting a .01 variance from base to ogive and now my new box of bullets is getting a variance of .003. Is .01 too much?

Im using the hornady gauge

 

[jdonovan]

I don't measure them all the time, but when I did, I recall .002 variance.

0.010 base to ogive seems way out of the norm for SMK's

 

[Cordova13]

I don't measure them all the time, but when I did, I recall .002 variance.

0.010 base to ogive seems way out of the norm for SMK's

Would you not shoot them or call Sierra and try to get a new lot?

 

[Stangs55]

if you are getting a .020 variance measuring from the ogive... then something is not right with your setup. 001-002 I'd be able to live with, 20 thou... no.

Your OAL variances are unacceptable. 0.18 is a big difference on a reloading bench. I don't let me OAL tolerances slip below +/- 0.003. Something is wrong. Let's get it figured out so you don't have to be constantly changing the dies.

That's what I'd assumed...

It's just funny that it seems to be with SMK and not AMAX...at least during that loading session as I've yet to find time to get back to the bench.

Most would be within +/- 0.005 (measured from ogive with hornady comparator)...but that still leaves you with a high/low spread of 0.01. I just can't imagine needing to use my micrometer adjustment as much as I was! However...when switching to my .308 178g AMAX...everything was +/- 0.001. Is this just within allowable tolerances of SMK vs AMAX? My SMK varried even more in COAL.

I "think" my setup and technique is okay...I mean I must have watched every YouTube video that there is and read ALL of the Lyman, Hornady, and Lee reloading pages as well as most of ABCs...

 

[gstaylorg]

First off, it's a bad idea to be changing the seating depth on your seating die in the middle of a batch. Seat some dummy rounds to get the seating depth/die setting exactly where you want it, then don't touch it again while you're doing a batch unless you really want different seating depths, such as a seating depth test. Because you're using the Hornady comparator insert to measure base to ogive, make SURE you're actually seating it as far as it will go over the bullet. The hole in the Hornady insert is actually smaller than some companies' inserts (such as Sinclair), so it seats farther out the nose of the bullet from the bearing surface.

You can try measuring the exact same loaded cartridge 5-10 times in a row to see how much your technique may be contributing to the variation (if at all). Alternatively, try measuring 10 of your Black Hills factory rounds and see what kind of variation those have. I use a Mitutoyo caliper that reads to .0005", Hornady .223 and .308 comparator inserts, and the same Redding Comp dies you have. Also, you might try to see how much variation in base to ogive and OAL there is in that lot of bullets. I suspect it's not lot variation in the bullets, but if so, you can likely get them replaced. In general, if my base to ogive readings are off by more than .0005" from where the seating die has been set, there is a problem, and it's usually that I didn't have the comparator correctly seated over the bullet. In that case, a slight wiggle/tweak of the round usually gets the reading where it should be. I do not normally see base to ogive seating depth variation greater than .001" using the same tools you have, so hearing you're getting variances that large suggests to me either inconsistency in your measuring technique, or a more serious problem elsewhere in the reloading process. It may not cause great precision issues shooting at 100 yd, but you really shouldn't be seeing that much difference in loaded round base to ogive measurements (or COAL for that matter), so it's worth some effort to get it sorted out. Good luck with it.

 

[Stangs55]

First off, it's a bad idea to be changing the seating depth on your seating die in the middle of a batch. Seat some dummy rounds to get the seating depth/die setting exactly where you want it, then don't touch it again while you're doing a batch unless you really want different seating depths, such as a seating depth test. Because you're using the Hornady comparator insert to measure base to ogive, make SURE you're actually seating it as far as it will go over the bullet. The hole in the Hornady insert is actually smaller than some companies' inserts (such as Sinclair), so it seats farther out the nose of the bullet from the bearing surface.

You can try measuring the exact same loaded cartridge 5-10 times in a row to see how much your technique may be contributing to the variation (if at all). Alternatively, try measuring 10 of your Black Hills factory rounds and see what kind of variation those have. I use a Mitutoyo caliper that reads to .0005", Hornady .223 and .308 comparator inserts, and the same Redding Comp dies you have. If my base to ogive readings are off by more than .0005" from where the seating die has been set, there is a problem, and it's usually that I didn't have the comparator correctly seated over the bullet. In that case, a slight wiggle/tweak of the round usually gets the reading where it should be. I do not normally see base to ogive seating depth variation greater than .001" using the same tools you have, so hearing you're getting variances that large suggests to me either inconsistency in your measuring technique, or a more serious problem elsewhere in the reloading process. It may not cause great precision issues shooting at 100 yd, but you really shouldn't be seeing that much difference in loaded round base to ogive measurements (or COAL for that matter), so it's worth some effort to get it sorted out. Good luck with it.

Great feedback. I really appreciate it. I'll get back on the bench this weekend and report back.

 

[jdonovan]

You can try measuring the exact same loaded cartridge 5-10 times in a row to see how much your technique may be contributing to the variation (if at all).

something I actually show students in the basic reloading class. Depending on the technique, where on the jaws they put the item to be measured, how they orient it in the jaws, and how hard the close the caliper.. we can get 3-5 thou of variance across 5 people on the same item to be measured.

 

[gstaylorg]

With my calipers/comparator/insert, it seems to be the cartridge base that needs to be "just so" against the caliper jaw. If the base isn't perfectly flat on the jaw, it will read long, because the cartridge is at an ever so slight angle. When you're measuring in the thousandths of an inch, it doesn't take much to be way off. To correct the cartridge alignment, a slight movement of the base is usually all it takes and you can pretty much feel it when it's right. If the same loaded cartridge can't be measured repeatedly to something like +/- .001", a little practice with measuring technique will likely be beneficial. Once you "feel it" position correctly in the jaws, you'll know immediately how to align the round for reproducible measurements.

As you might imagine, when loading a bullet that is relatively insensitive to seating depth such as the Berger 185 Juggernaut at say, 20 thousandths off the lands, you might not notice much of a difference with a seating depth variation of +/- 3-5 thousands, particularly at shorter range. However, loading a bullet that is very finicky, especially one that wants to be jammed, is a different story and reproducibility is essential for good performance.

 

[mdmp5]

Something the OP said about the competition seater caught my attention. That micrometer is not a set and forget piece of equipment. You do not set it for a desired seating depth. It gives measurements comparatively. The micrometer is meant to be turned based on individual measurements. If you are turning it to load every round, then you are doing it right.

 

[Stangs55]

Something the OP said about the competition seater caught my attention. That micrometer is not a set and forget piece of equipment. You do not set it for a desired seating depth. It gives measurements comparatively. The micrometer is meant to be turned based on individual measurements. If you are turning it to load every round, then you are doing it right.

Here's how I would use the competition seating die when starting from scratch:
1. Seat a little high and turn down the micrometer and reseat until I measure to COAL 2.260" exactly (for .223)
2. Get a different case/bullet and seat it
3. Measure COAL/OOAL. Here is where I would often find that it would either be too deep or too high by +/- 0.005ish on average (unsurprisingly most variability is with the COAL, but this is also critical as I need it to fit in the mag). So if it measured 2.265, I would turn the micrometer 5 clicks down and reseat to exactly 2.260 (I find the micrometer adjustments to be almost dead on). If it was too deep, I would back it off because I wasn't sure where exactly the next bullet would seat since these were so different.

I just repeated the above measuring COAL on every single load and adjusting the micrometer to keep it at 2.260. How should I adjust the above step? Thanks.

 

[gstaylorg]

Something the OP said about the competition seater caught my attention. That micrometer is not a set and forget piece of equipment. You do not set it for a desired seating depth. It gives measurements comparatively. The micrometer is meant to be turned based on individual measurements. If you are turning it to load every round, then you are doing it right.

Perhaps I'm not understanding your statement correctly, but in my hands once the mic is set, the rounds come out extremely close in seating depth (base to ogive). Once I have found the correct mic setting with a few dummy rounds, I typically see < .001" variation whether I seat 10 rounds, or 100. It's very reproducible and I don't have to touch the mic knob unless I specifically want to change the seating depth to something different. Unless there is some problem with significant variation in bullet or case length, or a problem with either the press or seating die itself, it should not be necessary to adjust the mic when loading a batch all to the same seating depth. I routinely remove my seating dies from the press and replace them later and still don't usually need to change the mic setting.

 

[mdmp5]

Perhaps I'm not understanding your statement correctly, but in my hands once the mic is set, the rounds come out extremely close in seating depth (base to ogive). Once I have found the correct mic setting with a few dummy rounds, I typically see < .001" variation whether I seat 10 rounds, or 100. It's very reproducible and I don't have to touch the mic knob unless I specifically want to change the seating depth to something different. Unless there is some problem with significant variation in bullet or case length, or a problem with either the press or seating die itself, it should not be necessary to adjust the mic when loading a batch all to the same seating depth. I routinely remove my seating dies from the press and replace them later and still don't usually need to change the mic setting.

Being that the seater uses a seating stem with a diameter less than the ogive, it is subject to variation due to inconsistencies in each bullet. You must be pretty lucky with your lots of bullets. I usually see variances that are much greater than .005. So I seat long, measure, adjust the mic, and then seat again.

 

[Stangs55]

Being that the seater uses a seating stem with a diameter less than the ogive, it is subject to variation due to inconsistencies in each bullet. You must be pretty lucky with your lots of bullets. I usually see variances that are much greater than .005. So I seat long, measure, adjust the mic, and then seat again.

This is what I'm seeing with the SMK...but not as much the AMAX.

Is there a particular bullet that you find more troublesome?

 

[mdmp5]

I shoot SMKs almost exclusively. The variances are enough to correct for consistent land engagement, but not so much to the point where i would quit using them. It is a simple fix.

 

[gstaylorg]

I can understand that variance in the bullet can affect seating depth because of the manner in which the stem contacts it. I can also understand that variances greater than .005" could arise from such a cause, dependent on a specific lot of bullets. If that is the case, the same amount variance should be seen when measuring bullets from that lot base to ogive. Sorting bullets should largely solve (or at least minimize) that issue. However, the OP mentions seeing .008" variance for bullets that were already sorted and measured as identical. That makes no sense if bullet variance was the only underlying cause. He also mentions variance in COAL of up to 0.18". Now I know bullet overall length can vary significantly, lot to lot, or bullets from different manufacturers. But 0.18"? That really seems as though it's got to be something besides simple variation in the bullets. If measured and sorted bullets are giving almost 10 thousandths variation in seating depth, something else may not right, in which case tweaking the seating die mic may only mask the underlying problem, even if it gets you the correct OAL.

It seems to me that there are a couple possibilities. 1) There may be an inconsistency in some aspect of the your seating process above and beyond simple variation in bullets. My suggestion would be to call the technical support guys at Redding and/or the manufacturer of your press. I've spoken with the people at Redding on a couple occasions and they were very knowledgeable and helpful. I suspect they can get you squared away pretty quickly if that's the cause. 2) Perhaps there really is an enormous variation in the lot of SMKs you have. You did mention that 178 AMAXs seated very consistently. Although I would have thought length sorting the SMKs should largely correct or at least minimize the seating depth issue, you can measure 10 or 20 of your SMK bullets and see if they really do vary that much. If you find they do vary enough to account for the seating depth variance you have observed, I'd be contacting them to see if you can get them replaced. If bullet variation isn't enough to explain it, then it's likely something else and I'd go back to 1) above. Fortunately, neither one of those two steps is very painful, and hopefully you can get the issue solved. Good luck with it and let us know what happens.

 

[Stangs55]

Sorry to resurrect my old post, but I finally got back on the bench. Oklahoma weather has been unkind and my garage reloading setup hasn't been ideal in this weather...

Quick early question: Since I wet tumble my brass in SS media, do I need to deburr/dechamfer again after cleaning?

Anyways, so I reloaded 100 rounds of .223 52 gr SMK today...

I set my Redding competition seater on round 1, and never touched it again through the process (something I was not doing before).

My first round seated at 2.2600, exactly where I wanted it.

Over the course of the next 100 rounds, my COAL ranged from 2.2630 at the very highest to 2.2575 at the very lowest. Most of the rounds ended up within +/- 0.002 of 2.2600 that I set out to achieve.

Using a Hornady comparator, my ogive was within +/- 0.002.

Is the above okay? I did not sort bullets beforehand.

I think the problem I was having previously is that I would seat a bullet for 2.2600, and then seat another and adjust for any minor discrepancies in it's depth. This time, I just left the die where it was and blew through the rounds. This left me with some a tad long and some a tad short, but all around the COAL I set out to achieve.

Thoughts?

 

[jdonovan]

Is the above okay? I did not sort bullets beforehand.

yes. Depending on your technique you could be +/- 0.001 just by how you use the caliper.

Thoughts?

OAL is sometimes highly variable when you are working with OTM style bullets like the SMK. ogive is the right place to measure when you want a constant point to measure from.