Rifle Scopes Reticle "shift" when adjusting magnification

[derek1ee]

My first FFP scope is a Vortex Razor gen 1 and it is solid. Then I got a Kahles k312i, everything is good except after I mounted, I notice the reticle would "shift" a tiny bit as magnification is adjusted:

Set the scope on a stable platform, in my case I just mounted it and set the rifle on bipod and rear bag.
Set the magnification to max.
Apply just enough force on the zoom ring, small enough so the ring barely moves.
And look thru the scope while doing the above.

I will notice the reticle "shifts" by a tiny bit, left to right before the magnification start to change. Repeat this from 11x and adjust up I notice the reticle "shifts" in the opposite way.

Now, Kahles took care of it, shipping both ways are paid for and the scope is repaired, no noticeable "shift" can be seen. I though that's an one off issue and just unlucky.

Then I got two more scopes, a Sig (Tango 6 3-18) and a Bushnell (ERS 6-24), and both have the same problem.

I don't know if this impact point of aim, one because of the shift is small, two maybe the image is "shifting" with the reticle, but I can't be sure. It almost looks like the spring opposite of turret is not strong enough.

Both scopes are sent back for inspection, thanks to lifetime warranty. But I want to check with the community to see if your scope exhibits the same issue.

Thanks,
Derek

 

[derek1ee]

You sure your not seeing parallax?

Pretty sure I'm not. Verified when setting parallax to max and scope pointing to white wall (as if when adjusting focus). I can also see the 0.1 extra mil shows up on the far right while the left remains the same, then the entire reticle start to get smaller as magnification decreases. Again, very small "shift", but noticeable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SubOptimal]

I would be concerned about something like that from a technical aspect. I very much doubt .1 mil is going to have much effect on your shooting unless you are breaking the trigger while still moving the mag ring.

 

[ICU22250]

I just went through the same thing with a new NF ATACR Mil-C 5-25, it was noticeable and was sent back. My 4-16 ATACR F1 doesn't do this..

 

[Gossett6MM]

There are a couple scopes I've seen this on. Nightforce and Schmidt appear to be the worst. But the entire image shifts with the reticle so there is actually zero mechanical shift. It is not an issue at all.

 

[hamstur]

I had an old SB 4-16 that did that. As G6MM mentions above, observe if the entire image shifts. That scope functioned perfectly otherwise.

 

[stello1001]

Because you're doing it on a plain white wall, you might notice the reticle itself shifting. However, if the whole reticle is shifting a tiny bit in correlation with the image, then technically the crosshairs will never move off target. This may not have been the exact reply you were expecting, but it might be worth to try this out on a wall with some sort structure or perhaps a different type of background.

 

[Hannibal Erector]

Reticle shift with mag change is much more prominent and problematic in 2nd focal plane scopes. The dramatic shifts are at the very ends of the magnification travel. The shift in between is less dramatic and gradual if at all. In the SFP scopes this is caused by loose fitting lense (usually zoom lenses) mounts in the erector tube. Because the ret and the image are seperated by the erector tube lenses then the shift is an issue. You dont have that problem on FFP so you should be G2G. Then again if its substantial it could be annoying and most likely handled by their CS.

 

[Conrad]

I had to send in my NF MILC for the reticle shifting. Seemed like it would do during start and stop and changing directions. Not something easy to see midway through zooming. Sent it in and NF replaced erector and just got it back today (great turn around time), unfortunately it is still doing it so I'm kinda confused if they couldn't repeat the problem or what. Paper work says image shift but I had described it as a reticle shift. With that said, and as others have said I've spent the last hour with it outside and now can say pretty confidently that the reticle and image shift just the slightest bit together so technically it should be a nonissue. I'll probably shoot with it this weekend and give them a call Monday to talk about it some more. Yes it is kinda annoying if you're looking for it but I probably won't think twice about it when actually shooting so long as my shooting isn't affected. We will see what NF says and I'll have some down time where I can send it back if need be. I really like the scope overall and I think NF did a great job with the windage orientation in this MILC, extremely intuitive on picking correct 0.2 hash or between, so I will hold onto this scope.

 

[ICU22250]

I had to send in my NF MILC for the reticle shifting. Seemed like it would do during start and stop and changing directions. Not something easy to see midway through zooming. Sent it in and NF replaced erector and just got it back today (great turn around time), unfortunately it is still doing it so I'm kinda confused if they couldn't repeat the problem or what. Paper work says image shift but I had described it as a reticle shift. With that said, and as others have said I've spent the last hour with it outside and now can say pretty confidently that the reticle and image shift just the slightest bit together so technically it should be a nonissue. I'll probably shoot with it this weekend and give them a call Monday to talk about it some more. Yes it is kinda annoying if you're looking for it but I probably won't think twice about it when actually shooting so long as my shooting isn't affected. We will see what NF says and I'll have some down time where I can send it back if need be. I really like the scope overall and I think NF did a great job with the windage orientation in this MILC, extremely intuitive on picking correct 0.2 hash or between, so I will hold onto this scope.

The thing is, at least to me, cause I went through the same issue with the same scope, it doesn't matter if the image and reticle both move in unison together cause it's not supposed to do it.. It will probably do just fine and track correctly but for me, it would drive me fucking crazy just knowing it's there when it shouldn't be. Lol... When free time allows, make them fix what they failed to fix the first go around.. With optics in this price range, they need to be right and functioning correctly. Now make no bones about it, I really like NF optics alot, getting ready to own another one here in a week or so, but if it's doing this it will go back to NF until it's corrected.. Hope you enjoy your new Mil-C, it's a nice reticle..

 

[Conrad]

Agreed, an optic this expensive needs to be completely correct throughout its function. It is annoying but I have a lot going on so I can't let a scope slow me down haha. I will be calling them Monday and get it sent back but in the mean time I'm going to shoot with it a bit over the weekend.

 

[ICU22250]

Agreed, an optic this expensive needs to be completely correct throughout its function. It is annoying but I have a lot going on so I can't let a scope slow me down haha. I will be calling them Monday and get it sent back but in the mean time I'm going to shoot with it a bit over the weekend.

Enjoy friend, and good shootin!

 

[supercorndogs]

Most of the time it is not the reticle shifting, but the entire image in a FFP scope. Generally its not a problem, if thats what it is.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

This is common in SFP. Never heard of a first doing this w/o it having other issues

 

[FF05]

I purchased a Kahles K624i earlier this year and have recently returned it due to reticle shudder. When decreasing magnification at certain power settings the reticle would jump up and left then re-center. This would all happen in a split second, its very noticeable at max magnification with the reticle at its largest.

 

[derek1ee]

I thought I was just imaging this but looks like it's a common issue...

Called Bushnell and my ERS 6-24 was repaired and on its way back, so I will report back once I get it.

Sig is still being repaired, got a Mark 6 3-18 and it shows the same issue. Really frustrating now that you know the issue may exist, and have to look for it every time getting a new scope and hoping it's not there.

The only FFP scope I have that worked out of box without this issue is a Gen1 Razor 5-20. All my SFP scope do not have the problem at all, though.

 

[supercorndogs]

Except its been hashed and rehashed that most of the time, it is not a problem and what you are seeing is the entire image shifting.

 

[Conrad]

Shot my NF MILC this morning to 100, 425, and 700 at different magnifications and scope performed great. I didn't take it further as I was enjoying my shady spot, and its been real hot lately. In my testing at the house as best as I could tell the image shifted with reticle, and I believe today's shooting also confirmed that. As suspected normal rifle movement while getting down to business of shooting basically makes reticle shift unnoticeable unless really looking for it. I will still call NF tomorrow to discuss, but I really enjoyed shooting with the MILC reticle. Hash orientation is super intuitive and quick.

 

[Bull81]

Shot my NF MILC this morning to 100, 425, and 700 at different magnifications and scope performed great. I didn't take it further as I was enjoying my shady spot, and its been real hot lately. In my testing at the house as best as I could tell the image shifted with reticle, and I believe today's shooting also confirmed that. As suspected normal rifle movement while getting down to business of shooting basically makes reticle shift unnoticeable unless really looking for it. I will still call NF tomorrow to discuss, but I really enjoyed shooting with the MILC reticle. Hash orientation is super intuitive and quick.

I know this is an old thread but I have the same scope ATACR with Mil C reticle. It’s doing the same thing. I hadn’t noticed until today while mounting it on a different rifle and I was inside. Did Nightforce ever get yours fixed or did it ever cause and POI issues?

 

[Conrad]

Technically they didn't fix it, it still shifts. That said it is not causing any POI issues so I quit worrying about it. I don't even notice it when I'm actually shooting. Only time I notice it is if I'm messing with the scope indoors and looking at a plain wall. I've read of some other pretty serious shooters noting scopes that they've had that do this. It might have been a schmidt if I remember right, anyway, they said it never affected the scope in the least. I may evaluate it further at some point, but like I said it isn't causing me any grief. Hope this helps.

 

[Bull81]

Technically they didn't fix it, it still shifts. That said it is not causing any POI issues so I quit worrying about it. I don't even notice it when I'm actually shooting. Only time I notice it is if I'm messing with the scope indoors and looking at a plain wall. I've read of some other pretty serious shooters noting scopes that they've had that do this. It might have been a schmidt if I remember right, anyway, they said it never affected the scope in the least. I may evaluate it further at some point, but like I said it isn't causing me any grief. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the reply, I haven’t noticed any ill effects either and just noticed the shift so I probably won’t worry about it. Just annoying paying that kind of money for optics that shouldn’t do that.

 

[Clearlight]

I’ve talked to some BR guys about this in the past , they are mostly SFP scopes
and they absolutely don’t touch the zoom during a group . FFP usually not so bad ,
but you can train for / evaluate the shift if you can shoot far enough . Shoot some
groups on different powers and see if there’s a difference in group centre , wind
permitting .

 

[Bull81]

I’ve talked to some BR guys about this in the past , they are mostly SFP scopes
and they absolutely don’t touch the zoom during a group . FFP usually not so bad ,
but you can train for / evaluate the shift if you can shoot far enough . Shoot some
groups on different powers and see if there’s a difference in group centre , wind
permitting .

I haven’t had this scope long, and have just now noticed the shift. I will test it at range and If there is no POI shift then I will likely just deal with it, but if there is any POI shift then it will be going to Nightforce to be corrected. As much as high end optics cost these days I refuse to train for the POI shift and learn to always factor it in my firing solution. This one is the F1 model and is a FFP, why is it not as common in the FFP scopes just out of curiosity

 

[demolitionman]

I've got a cheap 1500 ffp price-point scope. I thought about sending it back, but it hammers to 1000 and back and everything in between. It's not noticeable until I start looking for it but it is there. At 14 power it has 13 mills of useable windage reticle subtensions to the right and 14 to the left. At 8 power there is 16mills to the right and 17.5mills to the left windage. If I run it to max power of 21 the reticle subtensions re-center and are even on both sides. When I first opened it up and noticed it I got all pissed off and bent, but when I shoot it I don't see any real world issue so I say go shoot it and do a tracking test and see if it causes you problems. In my case I've learned to love the scope and had forgotten about this issue till I read your post.

 

[Clearlight]

I haven’t had this scope long, and have just now noticed the shift. I will test it at range and If there is no POI shift then I will likely just deal with it, but if there is any POI shift then it will be going to Nightforce to be corrected. As much as high end optics cost these days I refuse to train for the POI shift and learn to always factor it in my firing solution. This one is the F1 model and is a FFP, why is it not as common in the FFP scopes just out of curiosity

Due to the internal design , there is less opportunity for error in an FFP
design . Contact NF customer service and see what they say . Sounds
hinky and worth investigating .

 

[Bull81]

Due to the internal design , there is less opportunity for error in an FFP
design . Contact NF customer service and see what they say . Sounds
hinky and worth investigating .

Thanks I plan on contacting them first thing in the morning

 

[lennyo3034]

There was a thread a while back where the S&B rep explained it. Will look for it.

 

[Bull81]

There was a thread a while back where the S&B rep explained it. Will look for it.

Thank you, I talked to NF this morning and they said it was fine that some just do that. I zeroed it a few minutes ago and then shot 8 rounds all at different magnification and they all when into a hole about the size of a dime so I don’t think it’s going to cause an issue in poi.

 

[scudzuki]

Even if the reticle shifts in the field of view when you change the magnification, in an FFP scope, the reticle does not shift relative to the target, so it's an annoyance more than anything.

 

[nutation]

There was a thread a while back where the S&B rep explained it. Will look for it.

@lennyo3034 is it this thread?