Rifle build/design Theory Crafting - a discussion/solicitation

[DJL2]

First, Frohe Weihnachten and Merry almost Christmas. I‘m sipping some Scotch, waiting for das Christkind, and thinking about rifles. I’ve got a KRG SOTIC in 6.5 CM, a fine rifle. I’ve got a Winchester Model 70 in .30-06, a fine rifle. I’ve got a K-31. I’ve got a few different AR pattern boom sticks. They’re all nice. However, I’ve been thinking - if I wanted a general purpose rifle that I reached for just about any time a thing needed doing with a rifle...well, I don’t really have that. The M70 is the closest - though its beautiful Maple stock brings it to about 10 lbs with optics and, along with the well executed bluing, invites some questions with respect to hardiness. I’ve been thinking about “that” rifle - it doesn’t exist (yet) in my safe, but I wonder what it would be if it did.

I know I’d like to be around 8-9 lbs ready to rock with a sling and optics (though I don’t mind irons). I know I’d like it to balance at, or just forward of, the magazine, where my support hand sits naturally on many rifles. I’m not supremely concerned about length, but shorter is generally better...save that pesky issue of performance. 20-24 inches seems a reasonable target for barrel length. I’m not set on a stock material, but it does need to be durable and comfortable to shoot offhand. There are a LOT of ways to get there. I thought it might be useful to start with the bullet and work backwards. To that end, something between .277 and .308, running at the level of a .270/.280/.30-06 (or better) should serve. That didn’t really narrow it down, though, as this group knows well.

I’ve spent a couple days thinking it over, I’m curious about what conclusion folks here arrived at - I’m convinced many of you have travelled this road before. If nothing else, what’s your vote for best “all around” caliber in a rifle you can be expected to carry and shoot off hand?

 

[PBWalsh]

Q Fix/Sig Cross
5.56/224V/6.5G/6.8SPC AR-15
6.5CM/7mm-08/270/308/30-06 traditional bolt action

Budget and context matters. Anything above though would cover most scenarios outside of a herd of cape buffalo or elephants charging you.

 

[Supersubes]

Good thing to think about. I agree with PB. While in the process of building basically what you describe using a Manners EH/Lone Peak/shorty Proof, I bought a Q Fix. Both rifles are complete now, and it’s kind of a coin toss. Both are right at 8 lbs ready to go, both drive tacks. The traditional gun feels better in the hands, but the Q is a little more handy. I dont need to kill anything big really, but I could if I needed to. I’m just more apt to actually use them with short action cartridges.

None of your cartridges are bad, but your budget matters.

Wonder how long it will take for someone to ask “but will it PRS?”

 

[_Windrider_]

Good thing to think about. I agree with PB. While in the process of building basically what you describe using a Manners EH/Lone Peak/shorty Proof, I bought a Q Fix. Both rifles are complete now, and it’s kind of a coin toss. Both are right at 8 lbs ready to go, both drive tacks. The traditional gun feels better in the hands, but the Q is a little more handy. I dont need to kill anything big really, but I could if I needed to. I’m just more apt to actually use them with short action cartridges.

None of your cartridges are bad, but your budget matters.

Wonder how long it will take for someone to ask “but will it PRS?”

But will it PRS?

 

[Supersubes]

But will it PRS?

Someone always has to measure a rifle by its PRS comp merits.

 

[perttime]

Depending on budget, you might like a Sako Carbon Wolf.

Choose your own Sako 85 from a variety of excellent models

Sako 85 rifles are unique combinations of tradition and innovation. They are built to meet the utmost demanding design criteria. Choose your own Sako 85 now!

choose.sako.fi

 

[1moaoff]

But will it PRS?

Did you get approval to use those 3 letters?

 

[steve123]

DJL2,

Whatever you do, if you really want to make that rifle your go-to rifle, get one extra "soft recoiling" 22 or 6mm caliber barrel made for it. Varmints and steel will keep you using your sexy rifle all year. 6mmBR is as sweet as I've found!

Then put the heavy recoiler's barrel back on for hunting season.

Man, it's amazing how brutal a lightweight unbraked 270 is! Can't wait to get done sighting in friends rifles and handing the darn thing back.

 

[DJL2]

Steve - that did occur to me. The benefit of something like the old R93 where you could simply swap the barrel and mounted optics might be ideal. A ”trainer” twin of the “real” rifle makes a ton of sense. Certainly a concept I fell into, inadvertently with ARs.

PRS is cool, but it’ll be quite a while before I throw big bills into a heavy weight comp gun (if ever), caliber issues aside. It’s cool that they do a production division, it’d be nice to see them either add a weight class distinction or simply tailor the competition so that 20+ pounders weren’t so clearly advantageous.

PB - the Cross/Fix does look intriguing. I’m not really a folding stock guy, but I appreciate what they’re bringing to the table there.

I actually hit some fatigue running down cartridges that would do the job, factory or otherwise. I love the long action classics, I think they’re a good benchmark. However, I’m not ignorant of the benefits of a short action (and a more compact powder column) either. I like the RCM/PRC case design concept. The 6.5 PRC necked up to 6.8, 7, or 7.62 would probably make a great all around (if you’re not sold on the 6.5 itself filling that niche) - roughly a .284, but with with its potential truly realized in a short action. The WSM family is out there putting the work in as well. Of course, the .308 family is pretty ubiquitous. That matters when it’s time to find and shoot inexpensive factory ammo.

I suppose the sheer number of ways you can get this question right are what makes it something worth pondering.

Merry Christmas (for real, this time!) to all. Stay safe out there.

 

[Supersubes]

Regarding folders, my Fix is 25-1/4” long folded. Amazingly compact, and so easy to tote around. I live in a very rural area, so it goes just about everywhere with me.

Regarding the short mags, the 7 saum finally has brass support. Whole lotta performance in a short action with one of those.

 

[PBWalsh]

Man, the thing is that with the abundance of options on the market or via a custom shop, one can go into analysis paralysis. BTDT... still am on a projected build due to lack of experience with a few options.

You just need to break down realistic uses for this rifle. Live in the East? Probably not going to have many opportunities to shoot past a mile. Live out West? Probably can justify a rifle with ELR capabilities.

For me, when looking at a rifle build, I have to designate percentages of use I try to ground in reality. Meaning, as much as I’d LIKE to justify a .338LM/insert ELR cartridge here, I cannot realistically justify a dedicated lapua magnum bolt face, let alone a complete rifle, to something I MAY have the chance to actually use once in my life. I can barely justify a magnum bolt face. I can however justify a standard bolt face.

Why? Because ~95% of my use will be sub 1k. I am trying to talk myself into jumping to a 30-06 as opposed to a .308 for the “what if I can shoot out West at a mile one day” thought. Oh and because a 30-06 is super sexy and I won’t be chasing that extra bit of velocity I may need with the .308.

After grounding your build in reality, one must then set a budget. That’s totally up to you and what resources you have available. In today’s market, you can get a ton of good for the price, especially if you watch the PX. Lotta good to great deals down there.

Third thing I look for is my weight budget. I am pretty conscious when it come to weight and try to keep it low if possible, especially when looking at a rifle placed in a utilitarian role. Lighter weight generally equals more money though, so be place care where you place the weight of your dollars. A shorter, lighter barrel profile will save a good bit without spending the cash for carbon.

Or forget anything I just wrote and make whatever you want for fun, I take most of my builds way to seriously and feel like I am always “training” when I go shoot. Sometimes you just need a gun to shoot thats just for fun and not serious stuff.

 

[DJL2]

Yeah, that’s where I am. Considering the multitude of options and lying to myself about being somehow satisfied if I manage to get it “right.” It’s not time sensitive, at least - plenty of time to cruise the PX.

I‘m not man enough or rich enough to run a big magnum - at least not in the weight range I want. Positional shooting to a few hundred yards is where I spend almost all my time. I know of one 1000 yd range I can shoot and it’s not local to me. I’ve been kicking around mostly the east side of country - not likely to shoot anything bigger or tougher than deer and hogs (though a guy can dream), and surely a great deal more paper/steel than anything else.

I‘ve got a 10 lb .30-06 that could be a 9 lb rifle with a nice synthetic stock (and lighter still without a 24 ounce scope on it) - and is rifle enough to handle anything I’m even remotely likely to hunt. I’ve got a 6.5 CM that can cover my version of long range quite capably in a hefty-to-me 12+ lb rifle. I’ve got a handful of AR rifles that excel at plinking, making noise and what not.

There might not be much of a point in trying to harmonize all three of those ends into a rifle that’s comfortable to carry, comfortable to shoot, and equally capable of putting neat holes in paper or meat in the freezer...but, I might just give it a whirl anyway.

I was reading through Big Jim Fish’s review of the Mesa Arms project he did. I found myself wondering “if a Proof carbon barrel is 3.2 lbs (versus 4.8 for equivalent contour steel IIRC) what contour steel tube would come in at that weight...and wouldn’t that serve? The Sako mentioned above looks like a nice rifle, but it definitely begs me to build at that price point (on par with the Fix).

Never mind all that, though, I gotta go puzzle out which action to build on (or just order a Cross in .277 Fury and see what happens, heh).

 

[smoooth1]

Sounds like you are looking for a Remington Model 7...……...

 

[TheBigCountry]

if you already have a 30-06 and a 6.5, plus the ARs, I think you’d be pretty set.

but if the itch does exist, why not snag a Bighorn Origin, have it spun up with a 18” 308 barrel, and drop it into a KRG Bravo? That’s my eventual plan for the next coming year. If I can’t get it done with that, I may as well throw rocks at my targets and hope for the best.

 

[Supersubes]

Yeah, that’s where I am. Considering the multitude of options and lying to myself about being somehow satisfied if I manage to get it “right.” It’s not time sensitive, at least - plenty of time to cruise the PX.

I‘m not man enough or rich enough to run a big magnum - at least not in the weight range I want. Positional shooting to a few hundred yards is where I spend almost all my time. I know of one 1000 yd range I can shoot and it’s not local to me. I’ve been kicking around mostly the east side of country - not likely to shoot anything bigger or tougher than deer and hogs (though a guy can dream), and surely a great deal more paper/steel than anything else.

I‘ve got a 10 lb .30-06 that could be a 9 lb rifle with a nice synthetic stock (and lighter still without a 24 ounce scope on it) - and is rifle enough to handle anything I’m even remotely likely to hunt. I’ve got a 6.5 CM that can cover my version of long range quite capably in a hefty-to-me 12+ lb rifle. I’ve got a handful of AR rifles that excel at plinking, making noise and what not.

There might not be much of a point in trying to harmonize all three of those ends into a rifle that’s comfortable to carry, comfortable to shoot, and equally capable of putting neat holes in paper or meat in the freezer...but, I might just give it a whirl anyway.

I was reading through Big Jim Fish’s review of the Mesa Arms project he did. I found myself wondering “if a Proof carbon barrel is 3.2 lbs (versus 4.8 for equivalent contour steel IIRC) what contour steel tube would come in at that weight...and wouldn’t that serve? The Sako mentioned above looks like a nice rifle, but it definitely begs me to build at that price point (on par with the Fix).

Never mind all that, though, I gotta go puzzle out which action to build on (or just order a Cross in .277 Fury and see what happens, heh).

Certainly seems like the cartridges you mentioned in your initial post are not needed. Deer and pigs are a pretty low bar. Magnums would seem like an obvious bad choice.

You see a lot of guys around here using Bartlein 3B contours on their hunting rigs. What Bartlein calls a light bull sporter. Those weigh 4 lbs at 26”. A standard #3 weighs 3.5 lbs. I lean towards the lighter end, maybe even a number 2.

 

[DJL2]

Certainly seems like the cartridges you mentioned in your initial post are not needed. Deer and pigs are a pretty low bar. Magnums would seem like an obvious bad choice.

You see a lot of guys around here using Bartlein 3B contours on their hunting rigs. What Bartlein calls a light bull sporter. Those weigh 4 lbs at 26”. A standard #3 weighs 3.5 lbs. I lean towards the lighter end, maybe even a number 2.

Indeed. I’ve been a 6.5 ”fan boy” since the 1990s. Passed on the .260 because I didn’t like the case design. Grabbed my 6.5 CM expecting factory ammo would significantly better my old school 6.5x55. I’ve been disappointed in that respect (140 grain @ 2585 fps or so doesn’t blow my skirt up). I sold off my 7mm Rem Mag because it was just excessive (a nice rifle...just one I almost never shot).

The cut down RCM case on the 6.5 PRC looks good to me. Likewise, the “blown out” .308 case used for the .277 Fury is intriguing (even without running 80 ksi in a hybrid case). I like the idea of squeezing the performance of the .30-06 family into a short action. Going smaller than .30 to cut down on recoil makes sense.

Thanks for the info on bbl contours - as soon as I read it, a host of other posts from this forum crashed into my consciousness out of memory.

 

[Massoud]

First, Frohe Weihnachten and Merry almost Christmas. I‘m sipping some Scotch, waiting for das Christkind, and thinking about rifles. I’ve got a KRG SOTIC in 6.5 CM, a fine rifle.

Congratulations on your clearly superb taste
Justin

 

[Supersubes]

Indeed. I’ve been a 6.5 ”fan boy” since the 1990s. Passed on the .260 because I didn’t like the case design. Grabbed my 6.5 CM expecting factory ammo would significantly better my old school 6.5x55. I’ve been disappointed in that respect (140 grain @ 2585 fps or so doesn’t blow my skirt up). I sold off my 7mm Rem Mag because it was just excessive (a nice rifle...just one I almost never shot).

The cut down RCM case on the 6.5 PRC looks good to me. Likewise, the “blown out” .308 case used for the .277 Fury is intriguing (even without running 80 ksi in a hybrid case). I like the idea of squeezing the performance of the .30-06 family into a short action. Going smaller than .30 to cut down on recoil makes sense.

Thanks for the info on bbl contours - as soon as I read it, a host of other posts from this forum crashed into my consciousness out of memory.

I may have missed this detail but are you stuck to factory ammo?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Mossberg LR Tactical 308. That's 16", this is the 20" version.

I base my suggestion on my own experiences with the MVP Predator 223, which I have owned for the better part of a decade. It is my General Purpose rifle for applications where a true LR Tactical rifle isn't needed. Mine is combined with the Bushnell AR Drop Zone BDC 223 scope and the Federal Fusion MSR 223 62gr load. A 600yd capable LRF rounds out the package, making it a very reliable and predictable sort of rifle. It carries out the task of the original Scout Rifle in a far more conventional and pleasing manner.

Similar accommodations suitable to the 308 are available.

For my own 308-related needs, I've assembled a similar package built around the 20" PSA PA-10 308. Some judicious timing and purchasing decisions provided the core rifle for $560. The rest was options, upgrades, and personal preferences; but the whole item came in under $1000.

...And now, for something completely different...

Greg

 

[DJL2]

I may have missed this detail but are you stuck to factory ammo?

Yes, for the time being. I just PCS’d and my new digs are...cramped (I still haven’t found a place to unpack and store most of my stuff...I totally understand the “man cave” now). A small/portable press stand would address this, I think. I can still do case prep and what not.

I’m sure it’s anathema here, but I do have a little Lee Loader Kit in .30-06 - so I can keep on loading 208 grain ELD-M at least ;-).

 

[DJL2]

Congratulations on your clearly superb taste
Justin

I just need to convince my wife of that now. It’s an eye catcher - shooting a public range down here in South Florida today, had at least one guy (appeared to be a serious shooter) stroll down to my lane to ask about the rifle/chassis.

 

[DJL2]

if you already have a 30-06 and a 6.5, plus the ARs, I think you’d be pretty set.

but if the itch does exist, why not snag a Bighorn Origin, have it spun up with a 18” 308 barrel, and drop it into a KRG Bravo? That’s my eventual plan for the next coming year. If I can’t get it done with that, I may as well throw rocks at my targets and hope for the best.

Why an Origin and not a Nucleus?

If I could just get a new production M70 w/ AICS compatible bottom metal...

 

[TheBigCountry]

I saw to many issues on here with the Nuke. Just do a search and you’ll see.

There used to be a company that made a DBM kit for the model 70, that with a little work to the action, it would run the AI mags.

 

[DJL2]

Fair enough.

I like my M70 quite a bit, a light version of my current rifle would be fully in-line with what was suggested by several here (in concept, if not literally in form). Otherwise, @Massoud and the gang need to make a lightweight stock and barrel option for the SOTIC (I know it’s not a heavy rifle at 9.5 lbs relative its competitors - part of what I like about it).

 

[Massoud]

Just so you know, if you pick up a Bravo Rear and a T3 Bravo front and get the Howa mag spacer, you'll have a SOTIC Bravo. Now for the thin barrel...Sako 75 or 85 takeoff maybe?
Happy New Year!
Justin

 

[DJL2]

Just so you know, if you pick up a Bravo Rear and a T3 Bravo front and get the Howa mag spacer, you'll have a SOTIC Bravo. Now for the thin barrel...Sako 75 or 85 takeoff maybe?
Happy New Year!
Justin

You know, I was doing some mental gymnastics trying to figure out what the KRG barrel weighs... 9.5 lbs for the whole shebang with a 3.7 lb chassis... I thought "Hmm, that's a just less than 6 lb barrelled action by my napkin math...potentially an 8 lb rifle with a light stock..." Ultimately, my desire is not to buy a second optic and stock setup for the SOTIC, though I could potentially make a ~ 9.25 lb setup out of some lightweight rings/bases/scope/stock on the barrelled action...and that would be something. Obviously, a sporter profile barrel would bring things in quite nicely. A shame you all don't sell that action ;-).

If I wanted a "turn key" option, I think the Montana Rifle Company Xtreme Ranch Rifle is it. The shorter LOP should be in the neighborhood of my K31, which I quite like, and 6.5 lbs or so for the rifle gives me leeway for optics. Comes with a CRF/M70 style action to match my M70 and a DBM. Sure, 18 inches of #2 isn't my ideal, but it should be serviceable.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Special incentive from Savage to Service Members, etc.

 

[pmclaine]

Nothing in the market ever seems to have everything I want.

Im beginning my 3rd custom build to my specs.

First two have been fantastic.

Im expecting this one to perhaps be best of all even though I am expirementing more so.

Consider buying individual parts you have a hard on for and build your own design.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

My approach begins by accepting my own limitations. As shooters go, I'm no longer a crack shot, if I ever was.

I'm also a frugal shooter; I start with the simpler gear and work up by upgrading that gear to a higher standard. In a lot of ways it's not really all that frugal when one adds all the various stages up, but it also ensures that what upgrades get employed are chosen for specific reasons, and selected according to well understood criteria.

I'm gonna mention the "S"-Word, Savage. That can trigger controversy. My motivations stem from good o/o box accuracy, and (less so these days) affordable costs. There's also a somewhat vast selection of Savage factory models, and they can usually provide a factory rifle that either gets you there, or gets you very close.

Until you replace the barrel, accuracy will hover around the "Stock Rifle" level, but these days, that's usually more accuracy in the rifle than exists in the shooter. I start by doing handloading development to obtain a load data recipe that is more (most?) compatible with the barrel's potentials. Once this gets done, the system can allow the user to develop their own marksmanship skills to a surprisingly good level.

Shortly on, I will replace the stock, and have found some very good and affordable results with the Choate Tactical Stock.

I begin the optics evolution with a moderately priced scope, somewhere in the $200-$400 range. Some brands I use at this point are Bushnell and Mueller. They give very adequate value for the price point, and are more than adequate for the train-up task.

My barrel replacement (260 Rem) went from the Savage 24" factory barrel to a 28" Lothar-Walther. It was a great transformation.

One needs a serviceable rifle rest for the 260's F Open competitive requirements, I use the Caldwell Rock, again a starting level implement.

I won't go beyond this, but will suggest that unless one "Uses Up" the parts you replace before replacing them, they will remain good standby replacement parts for those days when gear fails. Some will point out (rightly) that this happens with Savage rifles. I will point out that it happens with the other brands, too.

I will also point out that even the failures are valuable learning lessons, and that the learning process can be really hard on that startup gear. That's why I recommend against reaching for the top shelf in the very beginning.

Whatever you choose, best fortune; and remember The 'Hide when those questions arise.

Greg

 

[DJL2]

Thanks all.

@Greg Langelius * - I'm now middle aged...sounds crazy to me, but there it is. Every time I shoot groups, I reminded of my marksmanship shortcomings. That being said, I'm not quite done with toying around to find components just yet. There wouldn't necessarily be anything wrong with a lower cost rifle - I could even economize somewhat and get it in 6.5 CM - but, like you mentioned, there's only so much frugality to be had!

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Q Fix.