Recently as a resident of NJ I went to purchase a rifle out of state and was informed the magazine capacity which is 17 was restricted by NJ law.I explained to the dealer he could keep the mags and I would purchase two compliant ten round mags.The dealer claimed the serial number of the rifle from the manufacture was shipped with 17 round magazines.Therefore he could not sell the firearm without the magazines or with ten round magazines.He cited federal law and could not make the magazines or the rifle nj law compliant.Since the rifle is serialised not the magazines is this the law?
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Rifle purchase issue and question
- Thread starter Beretta
- Start date
NJ has some crazy laws. I live in PA and have seen dealers flat refuse to sell rifles to guys from NJ. I am not saying the dealer was correct but I would check with your local FFL in NJ. They are going to be your best bet. I know certain rifles must be NJ complaint I don't know what exactly that means in NJ.
I was in pa and a large dealer.Citing federal law because of mags that I didn't want doesn't make sense I was in Pa and I never heard of that law.It seems unconstitutional because let's say I ban all NJ residents from owning any firearm that shoots more than one round.That bars me In the entire country from buying a firearm in any state I'm physically in at the time or from possessing or purchasing that shoots more than one round..What if I wanted a bank storage in Florida where I want to keep a glock 22 with high capacity mags.If I'm legal under federal law why does NJ have a reach when physically not in their state.Im not allowed to carry in NJ but if I got a Utah carry permit or a Florida permit to carry I'm still limited to the type of firearm I can possess.I don't understand how that's not a violation of the constitution.According to this type of law they could stop me from carrying in any state because NJ does not issue carry permits to civilians or should I say subjects.
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Its not federal law but your state law that restricts the transfer of firearms to you. Its your state or the voting citizens of your state that restricted your rights, no one else.
And yes, serial numbers from the factory are marked compliant for certain states meaning if they do not meet your states restriction, you cannot buy the firearm (serial number is what you are buying or actually transferring possession) in any state and the FFL cannot transfer to you. Do not ask the FFL to break laws opening them up for penalties and fines. Sorry to inform you but it is not the FFL fault,
And besides, FFL do not have to transfer a firearm to you if they do not want to and no this is not denying your rights.
It called chain of commerce.
And yes, serial numbers from the factory are marked compliant for certain states meaning if they do not meet your states restriction, you cannot buy the firearm (serial number is what you are buying or actually transferring possession) in any state and the FFL cannot transfer to you. Do not ask the FFL to break laws opening them up for penalties and fines. Sorry to inform you but it is not the FFL fault,
And besides, FFL do not have to transfer a firearm to you if they do not want to and no this is not denying your rights.
It called chain of commerce.
The Dealer is full of shit in regards to him not being able to substitute the mags for the rifle . Here in NYC an FFL dealer can only sell a Ruger 10/22 with a 5 round magazine, Ruger 10/22 rifles come with 10 round magazines. The dealer keeps the 10 rounder and either swaps out or sells you a 5 round magazine with the purchase of the rifle.
you fools and your TMI.
I am buying this rifle. Thank you. Jersey? No, I am in the process of moving, actually. I got a new job in Texas so those things don't matter. Dealers in out of state transactions are like women who you are trying to bed. You tell them what they want to hear, get what you need, and GTFO
I am buying this rifle. Thank you. Jersey? No, I am in the process of moving, actually. I got a new job in Texas so those things don't matter. Dealers in out of state transactions are like women who you are trying to bed. You tell them what they want to hear, get what you need, and GTFO
The dealer is misinformed but it sounds like he read something on a forum. You should have asked him for the citation in the law that mandates that a weapon be sold with any magazine at all because there is not one.
It seems that he stated clearly it was against federal law to change or alter the way the rifle came from manufacture in any way.From what I have researched you are subject to the laws of your state for purchase no matter where you go.That should be challenged by the NRA and also the fact is once I leave that state it's up to the individual to comply with the law upon returning.Seems they can restrict your rights as a resident nationwide but I could not find that law.Is this a licence rule for FFLs regulated by the ATF?Being from NJ has its own set of rules now.What if I am in Another state and I Have a high capacity rifle does that make me a violator of the law because now a transfer has occurred.
Magua,made calls to local and out of state dealers,seems that most dealers are taking this position.Now one dealer here said that's not the law because he is able to make the sale compliant to nj law by changing magazines before acceptance from the manufacture but he could not accept a high capacity magazine in the first place.So that was a strange response.Im very upset that I was denied at a large franchise box store.The discussion with the manager went back a forth to no avail.People were looking at me because it created a scene.Moving now is not a possibility but the future is definite a move to a friendly state. Magua the answer to your question is florentine,and yes it was a beretta I was interested in..lol
As an IL resident, if I wanted to buy a long gun at a nearby out of state dealer, most (not all) of them require I follow IL's one day wait. I guess some see it as a grey area, and others want nothing to do with taking a chance. So a great deal on a old Ithaca 37 isn't so after another 3 hour round trip just to pick it up....even if its another excuse to eat BBQ again.
To add to the stupidity, we have to show our FOID card to buy ammo. However, if you're from IN or KY buying ammo in IL, you don't need any similar ID. But, I have heard of IL dealers making residents from other states follow the one day wait on long guns.
To add to the stupidity, we have to show our FOID card to buy ammo. However, if you're from IN or KY buying ammo in IL, you don't need any similar ID. But, I have heard of IL dealers making residents from other states follow the one day wait on long guns.
Beretta,
You ran up against a skiddish dealer, plain and simple. When attempting an interstate xfer involving a restrictive state, some(most) dealers go Nancy Reagan on you(Just Say No!). The dealer is required to not only follow laws of the state where transaction occurs, but the state of the tranferee residency(I have heard this both ways), in addition to any fed law. Since the FFL does not live in NJ or know NJ laws, they usually shy away. If you know how troubled FFL's are by gov agencies, you should understand. Interstate transfers are legal, just scary for an FFL when NJ, CA, etc are involved.
Your transaction has nothing to do US Constitution; "powers not given to fed gov shall be given to each state..." This means each state sets it own laws if not directly given to federal gov; i.e. gun laws, speed limits, criminal law, etc. Some states have no residency requirement for firearms transactions(Vermont). Some have very restrictive laws (NJ, CA, NY, et al and growing).
I believe he was incorrect concerning his ability to perform the transfer, at least the reason provided; however, considering the penalty to him for an error, any FFL that likes to continue being an FFL would likely err on the side of caution, as he did. Also remember he is an employee at a big box store, not a gun shop; being a firearms seller is just a part of his job, the one part he could go to jail for screwing up. Further to the side of caution, and shooting not being his hobby, he doesn't know much outside of the checklist under the glass.
I have been told any "alteration" has to be made prior to shipping to the FFL; the change and transfer can't be done by the same person, but I don't think mags qualify as an alteration.
Switchblade- when you hand him a driver's license for the ID check, he'll know your state of residence. I don't know a way around that, but it seems some of the responses from people in more free states is with a lot more shock and dismay than from us in the less free states. We see it all the time, just find a way to get it done, but don't expect it in any big hurry
PS- Calabrese, Florentine? Am I uneducated or out of my area?
You ran up against a skiddish dealer, plain and simple. When attempting an interstate xfer involving a restrictive state, some(most) dealers go Nancy Reagan on you(Just Say No!). The dealer is required to not only follow laws of the state where transaction occurs, but the state of the tranferee residency(I have heard this both ways), in addition to any fed law. Since the FFL does not live in NJ or know NJ laws, they usually shy away. If you know how troubled FFL's are by gov agencies, you should understand. Interstate transfers are legal, just scary for an FFL when NJ, CA, etc are involved.
Your transaction has nothing to do US Constitution; "powers not given to fed gov shall be given to each state..." This means each state sets it own laws if not directly given to federal gov; i.e. gun laws, speed limits, criminal law, etc. Some states have no residency requirement for firearms transactions(Vermont). Some have very restrictive laws (NJ, CA, NY, et al and growing).
I believe he was incorrect concerning his ability to perform the transfer, at least the reason provided; however, considering the penalty to him for an error, any FFL that likes to continue being an FFL would likely err on the side of caution, as he did. Also remember he is an employee at a big box store, not a gun shop; being a firearms seller is just a part of his job, the one part he could go to jail for screwing up. Further to the side of caution, and shooting not being his hobby, he doesn't know much outside of the checklist under the glass.
I have been told any "alteration" has to be made prior to shipping to the FFL; the change and transfer can't be done by the same person, but I don't think mags qualify as an alteration.
Switchblade- when you hand him a driver's license for the ID check, he'll know your state of residence. I don't know a way around that, but it seems some of the responses from people in more free states is with a lot more shock and dismay than from us in the less free states. We see it all the time, just find a way to get it done, but don't expect it in any big hurry
PS- Calabrese, Florentine? Am I uneducated or out of my area?
Yeah, outside my AOA. Around here all sentences start with "Dude, like...", so we lack in cultural awareness.
Graham- good call on the F&F, totally accurate.
Beretta- +1 on Graham's #2 point. If the FFL is unwilling to do the transaction, best to figure out how it can be done the right way. Besides, would you want your name forever linked w/an FFL that could be persuaded by a customer to do a transaction he was not OK with? I know, it's not forever, whatever. It is in some places come 1 Jan. Point is, keep your firearms deals up & up, if the FFL makes an error, you will likely be in the clear. Just keep buying more and more guns and you will get more used to the process!
Like has been said, you are held to the laws of the state that you are a resident. So many gun guys do not know the laws and have never had an BATF inspector walk into their shop, demand to see your bound book and get our their magnifying glass. The constitution has no authority or rights during this process. Every day I heard, you are denying my rights. Even had threats of law suites.
As dumb as it may seem, most FFLs are type 1 as retail shop and do not possess type 7 for manufacturing and yes, changing something as simple as a magazine can lead to fines from the inspector. Firearms are sent from the manufacture and cannot be altered by the FFL 1 gun shop. Big box gun stores are under more glass than single store front mom and pops from the BATF due to multiply state stores and all the individual state laws so they are over cautious. Missing out on a few sales for a couple hundred dollars is far better than a $5000 fine for a single entry or closing up the bound book out of bizz.
Understand that FFL is the holder of the legally binding federal document 4473 and is responsible for that document for 20 years.
It amazes me that so many citizens demand that laws be broken.
Know that while you are in a gun shop looking and handling firearms and well maybe demanding your rights, the guy next to you may very well be an BATF agent. I knew my two and they came in a few times to look around and shop. Last thing you want is a front door courtesy knock from the ATF.
As dumb as it may seem, most FFLs are type 1 as retail shop and do not possess type 7 for manufacturing and yes, changing something as simple as a magazine can lead to fines from the inspector. Firearms are sent from the manufacture and cannot be altered by the FFL 1 gun shop. Big box gun stores are under more glass than single store front mom and pops from the BATF due to multiply state stores and all the individual state laws so they are over cautious. Missing out on a few sales for a couple hundred dollars is far better than a $5000 fine for a single entry or closing up the bound book out of bizz.
Understand that FFL is the holder of the legally binding federal document 4473 and is responsible for that document for 20 years.
It amazes me that so many citizens demand that laws be broken.
Know that while you are in a gun shop looking and handling firearms and well maybe demanding your rights, the guy next to you may very well be an BATF agent. I knew my two and they came in a few times to look around and shop. Last thing you want is a front door courtesy knock from the ATF.
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