Runout
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Re: Runout
My lowest runout rounds are with match 308 brass and I can consistently keep .0005 - .001" for around 98-99% of them. If it's more than say, .003" for more than 10% of them for some reason, I'll be on a hunt to find out what is causing it. But seeing an occasional .004 or .005 isn't uncommon even in brass that straight. It can be used to spot the rare oddball that may show up on paper, but I have used it on everything from match rounds to bulk AR15 rounds and nothing so far has stood out as being extreme as long as I've been using consistent tools and techniques.
You'll have to decide for yourself if it's a waste of time or not. You don't actually have to know what your runout is to have good ammo and shoot well; as long as you keep good techniques, it will be consistently low. That's all I do with mine: I read it to improve my techniques to avoid introducing new runout, to get a general idea of what the overal lot is like and if I need to improve/remove any processes. Some people sort by TIR, which you may not see much difference if your rifles or your skills aren't already shooting well enough to exploit those very minor differences; on the flip side, if that's you, this can really help your ammo come up a notch. Or rather, help you pick the ammo that is. Short distances have a way of hiding imperfections; said another way, shooting under 200 or 300 yards minimizes the importance of some of these high end techniques and makes them a bit wasteful with time and money.
My lowest runout rounds are with match 308 brass and I can consistently keep .0005 - .001" for around 98-99% of them. If it's more than say, .003" for more than 10% of them for some reason, I'll be on a hunt to find out what is causing it. But seeing an occasional .004 or .005 isn't uncommon even in brass that straight. It can be used to spot the rare oddball that may show up on paper, but I have used it on everything from match rounds to bulk AR15 rounds and nothing so far has stood out as being extreme as long as I've been using consistent tools and techniques.
You'll have to decide for yourself if it's a waste of time or not. You don't actually have to know what your runout is to have good ammo and shoot well; as long as you keep good techniques, it will be consistently low. That's all I do with mine: I read it to improve my techniques to avoid introducing new runout, to get a general idea of what the overal lot is like and if I need to improve/remove any processes. Some people sort by TIR, which you may not see much difference if your rifles or your skills aren't already shooting well enough to exploit those very minor differences; on the flip side, if that's you, this can really help your ammo come up a notch. Or rather, help you pick the ammo that is. Short distances have a way of hiding imperfections; said another way, shooting under 200 or 300 yards minimizes the importance of some of these high end techniques and makes them a bit wasteful with time and money.
Re: Runout
I check mine regualrly for LR shooting....600-1200 yds.....
all depends on what kind of accuracy you`re after......
most good dies....and inline seaters will do less than .003"
bill larson
I check mine regualrly for LR shooting....600-1200 yds.....
all depends on what kind of accuracy you`re after......
most good dies....and inline seaters will do less than .003"
bill larson
Re: Runout
I have seen a usable difference. By the time I started to produce <.005 loaded rounds my opinion and use of many of my reloading tools had changed. Lee collet dies helped me eliminate a lot of runout.
I have seen a usable difference. By the time I started to produce <.005 loaded rounds my opinion and use of many of my reloading tools had changed. Lee collet dies helped me eliminate a lot of runout.
Re: Runout
I sort by runout because I have seen a difference in accuracy. Interestingly, even rounds with high runout tend to group pretty well when lumped together with other rounds of similar runout. I have no idea why, but it is something I have noted. I really need to do a more advanced experiment on that one.
As far as what is high... anything .002" TIR and less is fine by me. Usually, the vast majority of my TIR is 1.5 thou or less. I usually get about 4 or 5 out of my batch of 75 with 2 thou that I will use for sighters or foulers.
Even the .002" stuff shoots really well. If you get a handle on it, it is not a problem. If you start seeing some unusual behavior in runout, then you check your process. I was getting soem crazy numers once. Some cases were perfect, some were .003" - .005": way out of my usual range. I examined it and found that my shell block had some wood droppings from carpenter ants in some of the slots. The wood droppings stuck on some of the case heads during the sizing process, and some even got onto my press.
BAM! I got it figured out immediately rather than wondering for a long time why I wasn't shooting like I used to.
Now I check and sort by all of them, but the distribution tells me something very important. The distribution should be somwehat bell shaped. If I see a bunch with high TIR and a bunch with low TIR, I know I am doing something wrong.
You need a concentricity gauge regardless to examine your process as Ryan noted. It is one of my most important tools.
I sort by runout because I have seen a difference in accuracy. Interestingly, even rounds with high runout tend to group pretty well when lumped together with other rounds of similar runout. I have no idea why, but it is something I have noted. I really need to do a more advanced experiment on that one.
As far as what is high... anything .002" TIR and less is fine by me. Usually, the vast majority of my TIR is 1.5 thou or less. I usually get about 4 or 5 out of my batch of 75 with 2 thou that I will use for sighters or foulers.
Even the .002" stuff shoots really well. If you get a handle on it, it is not a problem. If you start seeing some unusual behavior in runout, then you check your process. I was getting soem crazy numers once. Some cases were perfect, some were .003" - .005": way out of my usual range. I examined it and found that my shell block had some wood droppings from carpenter ants in some of the slots. The wood droppings stuck on some of the case heads during the sizing process, and some even got onto my press.
BAM! I got it figured out immediately rather than wondering for a long time why I wasn't shooting like I used to.
Now I check and sort by all of them, but the distribution tells me something very important. The distribution should be somwehat bell shaped. If I see a bunch with high TIR and a bunch with low TIR, I know I am doing something wrong.
You need a concentricity gauge regardless to examine your process as Ryan noted. It is one of my most important tools.
Re: Runout
<span style="font-style: italic">"Anyone here measure runout on loaded rounds and if so what would be considered acceptable?"</span>
I've never bothered to check runout on unloaded rounds but what's 'considered acceptable' is for each of us to determine for ourselves, there's no established number.
The goal is 'zero'. How much more than zero each of us finds depends a lot on our understanding and method of measuring. And the maximum runout that matters is limited by how tight the chamber is. The target effects between zero runout and whatever the chamber allows will vary. Even then it matters a lot how good the rifle and load shoots AND the skill of the shooter. A lot of people and rifles will never see any difference in what may sound like a significant amount of ruuout.
Bottom line, there is no predictible runout line that means much of anything by itself.
<span style="font-style: italic">"Anyone here measure runout on loaded rounds and if so what would be considered acceptable?"</span>
I've never bothered to check runout on unloaded rounds but what's 'considered acceptable' is for each of us to determine for ourselves, there's no established number.
The goal is 'zero'. How much more than zero each of us finds depends a lot on our understanding and method of measuring. And the maximum runout that matters is limited by how tight the chamber is. The target effects between zero runout and whatever the chamber allows will vary. Even then it matters a lot how good the rifle and load shoots AND the skill of the shooter. A lot of people and rifles will never see any difference in what may sound like a significant amount of ruuout.
Bottom line, there is no predictible runout line that means much of anything by itself.
Re: Runout
I was just curious as to what most guys consider too much runout etc. I shoot FTR monthly and shoot every weekend that im not shooting a match but had never checked for runout until yesterday. My match load shoots well at 600 yards and my scores reflect it but I drop a few points every match due to what I think are fliers and not wind conditions or shooting technique. I checked about 30 loaded rounds last night and most were under .002 but there were some rounds at .003 runout. I use Redding competition bushing dies and seater but I don't neck turn at the moment but thats about to change. I'm just trying to eliminate any problems on my part in the reloading process. Thanks for the input everyone.
I was just curious as to what most guys consider too much runout etc. I shoot FTR monthly and shoot every weekend that im not shooting a match but had never checked for runout until yesterday. My match load shoots well at 600 yards and my scores reflect it but I drop a few points every match due to what I think are fliers and not wind conditions or shooting technique. I checked about 30 loaded rounds last night and most were under .002 but there were some rounds at .003 runout. I use Redding competition bushing dies and seater but I don't neck turn at the moment but thats about to change. I'm just trying to eliminate any problems on my part in the reloading process. Thanks for the input everyone.
Re: Runout
Zero is the number I strive for, I have tried all the tricks to achieve it, but it wasn't until I started neck turning that did it, uniform neck tension, uniform thickness, and zero runout all happened because it.
Zero is the number I strive for, I have tried all the tricks to achieve it, but it wasn't until I started neck turning that did it, uniform neck tension, uniform thickness, and zero runout all happened because it.
Re: Runout
.003" is a bit high. See what happens when you take those out of the mix.
I have noticed shooters lie about group size and reloaders lie about runout.
I told a story on another thread about someone showing a 50 BMG round that was flat-lined in a video and said, "These results are typical." If those results are typical, why did you video it?
Same thing with shooters. Close-up shot of a single group along with a statement that it shoots like this "All day long."
In the end, flat-liners are awesome. But .002" and less, you likely won't see the difference. I save my .002" stuff for sighters, like I said, and a lot of times, that is my best group of the day (mainly because I am fresh and have better concentration).
.003" is a bit high. See what happens when you take those out of the mix.
I have noticed shooters lie about group size and reloaders lie about runout.
I told a story on another thread about someone showing a 50 BMG round that was flat-lined in a video and said, "These results are typical." If those results are typical, why did you video it?
Same thing with shooters. Close-up shot of a single group along with a statement that it shoots like this "All day long."
In the end, flat-liners are awesome. But .002" and less, you likely won't see the difference. I save my .002" stuff for sighters, like I said, and a lot of times, that is my best group of the day (mainly because I am fresh and have better concentration).
Re: Runout
Until someone can figure out what to do about the 14-22 pounds of spring pressure exerted into the case head by the ejector...run-out is a moot point. What happens to run-out when you rapidly cycle the bolt and slam the tip of the projectile into the feed ramps. A concentric cartridge in a trued rifle makes sense that it will shoot better...until you factor in the 14-22 pounds of spring pressure exerted on a very small space at the rear of the cartridge
Until someone can figure out what to do about the 14-22 pounds of spring pressure exerted into the case head by the ejector...run-out is a moot point. What happens to run-out when you rapidly cycle the bolt and slam the tip of the projectile into the feed ramps. A concentric cartridge in a trued rifle makes sense that it will shoot better...until you factor in the 14-22 pounds of spring pressure exerted on a very small space at the rear of the cartridge
Re: Runout
That spring pressure you speak of is consistant on every round though making it not an issue. I sort into to groups or rather my wife does as i load. .002 and less are competition loads and all else are practice ammo. It comes down to confidence and when im laying prone at 600 yds i wana know that my ammo is the best it can be and my rifle is as good as it can be. Anyone who has ever lost a match by an x can tell you
That spring pressure you speak of is consistant on every round though making it not an issue. I sort into to groups or rather my wife does as i load. .002 and less are competition loads and all else are practice ammo. It comes down to confidence and when im laying prone at 600 yds i wana know that my ammo is the best it can be and my rifle is as good as it can be. Anyone who has ever lost a match by an x can tell you
Re: Runout
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until someone can figure out what to do about the 14-22 pounds of spring pressure exerted into the case head by the ejector...run-out is a moot point. What happens to run-out when you rapidly cycle the bolt and slam the tip of the projectile into the feed ramps. A concentric cartridge in a trued rifle makes sense that it will shoot better...until you factor in the 14-22 pounds of spring pressure exerted on a very small space at the rear of the cartridge</div></div>
If you have good case to chamber fit, it will not induce runout. I run zero headspace with my cartridges, so putting pressure on one part or another of the cartridge will make no difference at all. The bolt face is already applying pressure across the case head.
The runout we are talking about is at the ogive. With the case firmly in the chamber, the bullet is aligned or it is not.
For people running low neck tension (.001" or less), yes, banging the bullet around through recoil or in the process of feeding might change the concentricity a bit, but with more typical tension (.002" or more), it is a non-issue. The ejector pressure is doing nothing to alignment of the bullet in the bore unless you have excessive headspace.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until someone can figure out what to do about the 14-22 pounds of spring pressure exerted into the case head by the ejector...run-out is a moot point. What happens to run-out when you rapidly cycle the bolt and slam the tip of the projectile into the feed ramps. A concentric cartridge in a trued rifle makes sense that it will shoot better...until you factor in the 14-22 pounds of spring pressure exerted on a very small space at the rear of the cartridge</div></div>
If you have good case to chamber fit, it will not induce runout. I run zero headspace with my cartridges, so putting pressure on one part or another of the cartridge will make no difference at all. The bolt face is already applying pressure across the case head.
The runout we are talking about is at the ogive. With the case firmly in the chamber, the bullet is aligned or it is not.
For people running low neck tension (.001" or less), yes, banging the bullet around through recoil or in the process of feeding might change the concentricity a bit, but with more typical tension (.002" or more), it is a non-issue. The ejector pressure is doing nothing to alignment of the bullet in the bore unless you have excessive headspace.
Re: Runout
Ok,
so your ammo is very consistent...I assume you are shooting a rem 700.
The bolt holds the chambered round in a straight line in a straight barrel right? Remove the bolt from your rifle and hook a fired case into the extractor...now with your thumbs press the fired case as if it were surrounded by the chamber(straight in line with the bolt)
After you have actually removed your bolt and tried to line up a case straight with the bolt. How important is concentricity now?
Ok,
so your ammo is very consistent...I assume you are shooting a rem 700.
The bolt holds the chambered round in a straight line in a straight barrel right? Remove the bolt from your rifle and hook a fired case into the extractor...now with your thumbs press the fired case as if it were surrounded by the chamber(straight in line with the bolt)
After you have actually removed your bolt and tried to line up a case straight with the bolt. How important is concentricity now?
Re: Runout
I measure runout on all my loaded rounds and it can very frustrating at times. Even with the best components you will have a few .004-.005 no matter how many variables you try to eliminate. IME, the hornandy lock and load runout gauge is NOT a good ondicatior of bullet runout. It was giving measurements of .001-.002 on almost all loaded roounds. I thought everything was great in the runout department. Then I purchased a 21 century shooting runout gauge and discovered the real story, which was not acceptable. I try to keep everything below .002 with Lapua brass, expander mandrel, neck turning and using redding bushing dies. One mistake that induced significant runout was in trying to size the case neck more than .003 at a time. In other words, I turned the neck sizing into a 2 step process by sizing the neck down .003 at a time. This advice was given to by a bench rest shooter and has helped tremendously. Anyway, it can very frustrating.
I measure runout on all my loaded rounds and it can very frustrating at times. Even with the best components you will have a few .004-.005 no matter how many variables you try to eliminate. IME, the hornandy lock and load runout gauge is NOT a good ondicatior of bullet runout. It was giving measurements of .001-.002 on almost all loaded roounds. I thought everything was great in the runout department. Then I purchased a 21 century shooting runout gauge and discovered the real story, which was not acceptable. I try to keep everything below .002 with Lapua brass, expander mandrel, neck turning and using redding bushing dies. One mistake that induced significant runout was in trying to size the case neck more than .003 at a time. In other words, I turned the neck sizing into a 2 step process by sizing the neck down .003 at a time. This advice was given to by a bench rest shooter and has helped tremendously. Anyway, it can very frustrating.
Re: Runout
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until someone can figure out what to do about the 14-22 pounds of spring pressure exerted into the case head by the ejector...run-out is a moot point. What happens to run-out when you rapidly cycle the bolt and slam the tip of the projectile into the feed ramps. A concentric cartridge in a trued rifle makes sense that it will shoot better...until you factor in the 14-22 pounds of spring pressure exerted on a very small space at the rear of the cartridge</div></div>
If you have good case to chamber fit, it will not induce runout. I run zero headspace with my cartridges, so putting pressure on one part or another of the cartridge will make no difference at all. The bolt face is already applying pressure across the case head.
The runout we are talking about is at the ogive. With the case firmly in the chamber, the bullet is aligned or it is not.
For people running low neck tension (.001" or less), yes, banging the bullet around through recoil or in the process of feeding might change the concentricity a bit, but with more typical tension (.002" or more), it is a non-issue. The ejector pressure is doing nothing to alignment of the bullet in the bore unless you have excessive headspace. </div></div>
The bolt face does NOT apply even pressure accross the case head...because of the ejector and the fact that the locking lugs are what keeps the bolt locked-up
Headspace is measured from the bolt face to the datum line...without the ejector and spring installed
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until someone can figure out what to do about the 14-22 pounds of spring pressure exerted into the case head by the ejector...run-out is a moot point. What happens to run-out when you rapidly cycle the bolt and slam the tip of the projectile into the feed ramps. A concentric cartridge in a trued rifle makes sense that it will shoot better...until you factor in the 14-22 pounds of spring pressure exerted on a very small space at the rear of the cartridge</div></div>
If you have good case to chamber fit, it will not induce runout. I run zero headspace with my cartridges, so putting pressure on one part or another of the cartridge will make no difference at all. The bolt face is already applying pressure across the case head.
The runout we are talking about is at the ogive. With the case firmly in the chamber, the bullet is aligned or it is not.
For people running low neck tension (.001" or less), yes, banging the bullet around through recoil or in the process of feeding might change the concentricity a bit, but with more typical tension (.002" or more), it is a non-issue. The ejector pressure is doing nothing to alignment of the bullet in the bore unless you have excessive headspace. </div></div>
The bolt face does NOT apply even pressure accross the case head...because of the ejector and the fact that the locking lugs are what keeps the bolt locked-up
Headspace is measured from the bolt face to the datum line...without the ejector and spring installed
Re: Runout
The ejector does not move the case out of the way. That is like saying that when you lean on a building, you are causing it to lean. Sure, there are forces, but those forces are static. The ejector pushing on the case head is not causing the case head to move. You are implying that the ejector is causing the brass to deflect. You would need substantially more pressure to deflect the brass in the way that you are talking about.
Maybe we should stop truing actions. After all, there is an ejector. Or why bother to cut a chamber concentric and square? The ejector is deflecting it. This is wrong-headed thinking.
The ejector does not move the case out of the way. That is like saying that when you lean on a building, you are causing it to lean. Sure, there are forces, but those forces are static. The ejector pushing on the case head is not causing the case head to move. You are implying that the ejector is causing the brass to deflect. You would need substantially more pressure to deflect the brass in the way that you are talking about.
Maybe we should stop truing actions. After all, there is an ejector. Or why bother to cut a chamber concentric and square? The ejector is deflecting it. This is wrong-headed thinking.
Re: Runout
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Remove the bolt from your rifle and hook a fired case into the extractor...now with your thumbs press the fired case as if it were surrounded by the chamber(straight in line with the bolt)
After you have actually removed your bolt and tried to line up a case straight with the bolt. How important is concentricity now?</div></div>
Your thumbs are a very poor representation of a chamber.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Remove the bolt from your rifle and hook a fired case into the extractor...now with your thumbs press the fired case as if it were surrounded by the chamber(straight in line with the bolt)
After you have actually removed your bolt and tried to line up a case straight with the bolt. How important is concentricity now?</div></div>
Your thumbs are a very poor representation of a chamber.
Re: Runout
I get it now. The ejector bends the chamber and distorts the brass. Makes perfect sense. But what would happen then in my 03a3s where the ejector folds away. hmmmmmmmmm Does concentricty matter there??? how bout my single shot bat with no ejector. What the hell lets just slap us together some ammo and go blast some cans. Mite as well stop weighing powder. cases all vary in capacity so whats the point. The mega ejector is just guna fuck it up any way. Hell im surprised with that fool ejector in there we can even hit paper at 100 yds much less 1k.
I get it now. The ejector bends the chamber and distorts the brass. Makes perfect sense. But what would happen then in my 03a3s where the ejector folds away. hmmmmmmmmm Does concentricty matter there??? how bout my single shot bat with no ejector. What the hell lets just slap us together some ammo and go blast some cans. Mite as well stop weighing powder. cases all vary in capacity so whats the point. The mega ejector is just guna fuck it up any way. Hell im surprised with that fool ejector in there we can even hit paper at 100 yds much less 1k.
Re: Runout
I agree with Carter, when your running zero headspace the case is a perfect fit to the chamber and the ejector isn't going to tilt the case in the chamber. Now if your talking a full length sized case with the shoulder bumped back and the bullet isn't jammed, the ejector force would tilt the case a little.
I've been using the collet die, and with care during the seating process I can see as low as .0005 and may get a few as high as .004 if I'm not carefull during the seating process. What helps me get low runout is seating the bullet slightly backing off then turning the case a little seat a little more and keep repeating until fully seated.
Dan
I agree with Carter, when your running zero headspace the case is a perfect fit to the chamber and the ejector isn't going to tilt the case in the chamber. Now if your talking a full length sized case with the shoulder bumped back and the bullet isn't jammed, the ejector force would tilt the case a little.
I've been using the collet die, and with care during the seating process I can see as low as .0005 and may get a few as high as .004 if I'm not carefull during the seating process. What helps me get low runout is seating the bullet slightly backing off then turning the case a little seat a little more and keep repeating until fully seated.
Dan
Re: Runout
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Remove the bolt from your rifle and hook a fired case into the extractor...now with your thumbs press the fired case as if it were surrounded by the chamber(straight in line with the bolt)
After you have actually removed your bolt and tried to line up a case straight with the bolt. How important is concentricity now?</div></div>
Your thumbs are a very poor representation of a chamber. </div></div>
Have you even tried it? You would be amazed at how much pressure it takes to line up a fired case with the bolt. If you think that same pressure doesn't move a cartridge inside the chamber you would be incorrect
I drank the kool-aid and once thought concentricity was important and would make me a better shooter...trigger time and confidence in my own ability made me a better shooter an contrencity was a crutch...thats just my experience though
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Remove the bolt from your rifle and hook a fired case into the extractor...now with your thumbs press the fired case as if it were surrounded by the chamber(straight in line with the bolt)
After you have actually removed your bolt and tried to line up a case straight with the bolt. How important is concentricity now?</div></div>
Your thumbs are a very poor representation of a chamber. </div></div>
Have you even tried it? You would be amazed at how much pressure it takes to line up a fired case with the bolt. If you think that same pressure doesn't move a cartridge inside the chamber you would be incorrect
I drank the kool-aid and once thought concentricity was important and would make me a better shooter...trigger time and confidence in my own ability made me a better shooter an contrencity was a crutch...thats just my experience though
Re: Runout
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Remove the bolt from your rifle and hook a fired case into the extractor...now with your thumbs press the fired case as if it were surrounded by the chamber(straight in line with the bolt)
After you have actually removed your bolt and tried to line up a case straight with the bolt. How important is concentricity now?</div></div>
Your thumbs are a very poor representation of a chamber. </div></div>
Have you even tried it? You would be amazed at how much pressure it takes to line up a fired case with the bolt. If you think that same pressure doesn't move a cartridge inside the chamber you would be incorrect
I drank the kool-aid and once thought concentricity was important and would make me a better shooter...trigger time and confidence in my own ability made me a better shooter an contrencity was a crutch...thats just my experience though </div></div>
once again like the last time you got on your soap box about this I would invite you to post your results following these guidelines:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=318097&Number=3662482#top
in the other thread you said you would demonstrate your results, but the distance to travel was too far - what excuse are you going to make this time?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Remove the bolt from your rifle and hook a fired case into the extractor...now with your thumbs press the fired case as if it were surrounded by the chamber(straight in line with the bolt)
After you have actually removed your bolt and tried to line up a case straight with the bolt. How important is concentricity now?</div></div>
Your thumbs are a very poor representation of a chamber. </div></div>
Have you even tried it? You would be amazed at how much pressure it takes to line up a fired case with the bolt. If you think that same pressure doesn't move a cartridge inside the chamber you would be incorrect
I drank the kool-aid and once thought concentricity was important and would make me a better shooter...trigger time and confidence in my own ability made me a better shooter an contrencity was a crutch...thats just my experience though </div></div>
once again like the last time you got on your soap box about this I would invite you to post your results following these guidelines:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=318097&Number=3662482#top
in the other thread you said you would demonstrate your results, but the distance to travel was too far - what excuse are you going to make this time?
Re: Runout
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Have you even tried it? You would be amazed at how much pressure it takes to line up a fired case with the bolt. If you think that same pressure doesn't move a cartridge inside the chamber you would be incorrect
I drank the kool-aid and once thought concentricity was important and would make me a better shooter...trigger time and confidence in my own ability made me a better shooter an contrencity was a crutch...thats just my experience though</div></div>
To paraphrase the Big Lebowski, "obviously, you are not a machinist." I never said that better concentricity will make you a better shooter. These things are clearly unrelated. Nor did I say that zero runout was necessary. I just said that it starts to have an impact at about .003". I don't feel like that is really controversial. Creighton Audette did some pretty serious work on this more than 30 years ago.
And yes, it is hard to shoot the difference. But in the end, once you become a good enough shooter, chasing out that last bit of inaccuracy comes down to the ammo.
As a shooter, I had plateued with rimfire at 100 yards a while back. I was about as good as I could get. I discovered a new ammo that shot lights out at 100 yards and made about a 10% gain. All of a sudden, I was cleaning up on the competition. And it wasn't even close.
My handmade ammo beats FGMM by about 0.1" for 5-shot groups at 100 yards. That ends up being pretty significant. Could be because my average runout hovers around .001" and FGMM hovers around .004". Or maybe it is something else. Hard to say.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Have you even tried it? You would be amazed at how much pressure it takes to line up a fired case with the bolt. If you think that same pressure doesn't move a cartridge inside the chamber you would be incorrect
I drank the kool-aid and once thought concentricity was important and would make me a better shooter...trigger time and confidence in my own ability made me a better shooter an contrencity was a crutch...thats just my experience though</div></div>
To paraphrase the Big Lebowski, "obviously, you are not a machinist." I never said that better concentricity will make you a better shooter. These things are clearly unrelated. Nor did I say that zero runout was necessary. I just said that it starts to have an impact at about .003". I don't feel like that is really controversial. Creighton Audette did some pretty serious work on this more than 30 years ago.
And yes, it is hard to shoot the difference. But in the end, once you become a good enough shooter, chasing out that last bit of inaccuracy comes down to the ammo.
As a shooter, I had plateued with rimfire at 100 yards a while back. I was about as good as I could get. I discovered a new ammo that shot lights out at 100 yards and made about a 10% gain. All of a sudden, I was cleaning up on the competition. And it wasn't even close.
My handmade ammo beats FGMM by about 0.1" for 5-shot groups at 100 yards. That ends up being pretty significant. Could be because my average runout hovers around .001" and FGMM hovers around .004". Or maybe it is something else. Hard to say.
Re: Runout
The way I look at it, if the bullet is touching the riflings, then the front end of the bullet is concentric with the bore.
When the firing pin pushes the case forward, the tapered shoulder of the cartridge is stopped by the tapered shoulder of the chamber. This is like a tapered collet in a mill, and centers things very well. [If the shoulder got pushed back .001"]
If the neck were straight, uniform thickness and centered in the shoulder, then the rear of the bullet is concentric too.
Brass on the exterior comes out from fire forming very concentric. Then some reloader wrecks it.
The trouble is the necks get bent.
A) The worst is expander balls pulling -> .004"
Everything else is small potatoes:
B) Seater crooked -> .001"
C) neck thickness run out -> .001"
D) Neck bent in sizing -> .001"
E) Bullet will not spin balanced -> .001"
F) Expander balls pushing in a step separate from sizing process -> .001"
And those errors do not add linearly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_integration
That means they add very slowly as lots of cancelling out happens.
Measuring concentricity does not fix the problem.
But it can be used to help show where trouble enters the process.
The way I look at it, if the bullet is touching the riflings, then the front end of the bullet is concentric with the bore.
When the firing pin pushes the case forward, the tapered shoulder of the cartridge is stopped by the tapered shoulder of the chamber. This is like a tapered collet in a mill, and centers things very well. [If the shoulder got pushed back .001"]
If the neck were straight, uniform thickness and centered in the shoulder, then the rear of the bullet is concentric too.
Brass on the exterior comes out from fire forming very concentric. Then some reloader wrecks it.
The trouble is the necks get bent.
A) The worst is expander balls pulling -> .004"
Everything else is small potatoes:
B) Seater crooked -> .001"
C) neck thickness run out -> .001"
D) Neck bent in sizing -> .001"
E) Bullet will not spin balanced -> .001"
F) Expander balls pushing in a step separate from sizing process -> .001"
And those errors do not add linearly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_integration
That means they add very slowly as lots of cancelling out happens.
Measuring concentricity does not fix the problem.
But it can be used to help show where trouble enters the process.
Re: Runout
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Remove the bolt from your rifle and hook a fired case into the extractor...now with your thumbs press the fired case as if it were surrounded by the chamber(straight in line with the bolt)
After you have actually removed your bolt and tried to line up a case straight with the bolt. How important is concentricity now?</div></div>
Your thumbs are a very poor representation of a chamber. </div></div>
Have you even tried it? You would be amazed at how much pressure it takes to line up a fired case with the bolt. If you think that same pressure doesn't move a cartridge inside the chamber you would be incorrect
I drank the kool-aid and once thought concentricity was important and would make me a better shooter...trigger time and confidence in my own ability made me a better shooter an contrencity was a crutch...thats just my experience though </div></div>
once again like the last time you got on your soap box about this I would invite you to post your results following these guidelines:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=318097&Number=3662482#top
in the other thread you said you would demonstrate your results, but the distance to travel was too far - what excuse are you going to make this time? </div></div>
The debate was intelligent and thought provoking...until you got involved.(george63)
As far as I'm concerned you can shove your insults attacks and antiquated advice straight up your ass. Most of your advice was cutting edge in the 1970's.
While you're at go high five the bathroom mirror as you are the only person I will intentionally ingnore.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Remove the bolt from your rifle and hook a fired case into the extractor...now with your thumbs press the fired case as if it were surrounded by the chamber(straight in line with the bolt)
After you have actually removed your bolt and tried to line up a case straight with the bolt. How important is concentricity now?</div></div>
Your thumbs are a very poor representation of a chamber. </div></div>
Have you even tried it? You would be amazed at how much pressure it takes to line up a fired case with the bolt. If you think that same pressure doesn't move a cartridge inside the chamber you would be incorrect
I drank the kool-aid and once thought concentricity was important and would make me a better shooter...trigger time and confidence in my own ability made me a better shooter an contrencity was a crutch...thats just my experience though </div></div>
once again like the last time you got on your soap box about this I would invite you to post your results following these guidelines:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=318097&Number=3662482#top
in the other thread you said you would demonstrate your results, but the distance to travel was too far - what excuse are you going to make this time? </div></div>
The debate was intelligent and thought provoking...until you got involved.(george63)
As far as I'm concerned you can shove your insults attacks and antiquated advice straight up your ass. Most of your advice was cutting edge in the 1970's.
While you're at go high five the bathroom mirror as you are the only person I will intentionally ingnore.
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Re: Runout
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The debate was intelligent and thought provoking...until you got involved.(george63)
As far as I'm concerned you can shove your insults attacks and antiquated advice straight up your ass. Most of your advice was cutting edge in the 1970's.
While you're at go high five the bathroom mirror as you are the only person I will intentionally ingnore. </div></div>
Holy shit, there's more rumbles in here than The Bear Pit!
Trying not to piss Carter and Cobra off, personally, I think numbers in the ".001 and .000" are a fallacy, at least in my reloading room they are. I'd have to see this first hand.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The debate was intelligent and thought provoking...until you got involved.(george63)
As far as I'm concerned you can shove your insults attacks and antiquated advice straight up your ass. Most of your advice was cutting edge in the 1970's.
While you're at go high five the bathroom mirror as you are the only person I will intentionally ingnore. </div></div>
Holy shit, there's more rumbles in here than The Bear Pit!
Trying not to piss Carter and Cobra off, personally, I think numbers in the ".001 and .000" are a fallacy, at least in my reloading room they are. I'd have to see this first hand.
Re: Runout
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as I'm concerned you can shove your insults attacks and antiquated advice straight up your ass. Most of your advice was cutting edge in the 1970's.
While you're at go high five the bathroom mirror as you are the only person I will intentionally ingnore. </div></div>
In other words: you cannot demonstrate results with the methods that you advocate and cannot come up with a good excuse for not doing so....
instead you will lash out at me for calling you out
I truly would like to see you demonstrate what you claim in a credible way - it could potentially save steps/ effort for a lot of reloaders, if it was legitimately shown that concentricity holds no correlation with consistent point of impact
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as I'm concerned you can shove your insults attacks and antiquated advice straight up your ass. Most of your advice was cutting edge in the 1970's.
While you're at go high five the bathroom mirror as you are the only person I will intentionally ingnore. </div></div>
In other words: you cannot demonstrate results with the methods that you advocate and cannot come up with a good excuse for not doing so....
instead you will lash out at me for calling you out
I truly would like to see you demonstrate what you claim in a credible way - it could potentially save steps/ effort for a lot of reloaders, if it was legitimately shown that concentricity holds no correlation with consistent point of impact
Re: Runout
Having a lot of runout isn't going to matter when your satisfied with hitting a pie plate at 100 yards, but can anyone tell me how the firing pin shoves the cartridge forward when the extractor is holding the case rim against the bolt head?
Having a lot of runout isn't going to matter when your satisfied with hitting a pie plate at 100 yards, but can anyone tell me how the firing pin shoves the cartridge forward when the extractor is holding the case rim against the bolt head?
Re: Runout
BTW... I agree, concentricity can be a distraction if you can't shoot very well. You have to shoot about as well or better than your system to see a difference in improving that system. But I figured that was a given in this discussion.
This is not either/or. It is not like you can either make good concentric ammo or you can shoot well. Once you learn how to make the straight stuff, it is pretty effortless to do it every time. It takes me less than 10 minutes to run all of my cases for a given shooting session. And I do it at home, so it does not take away from trigger time, though it might eat into dry fire time a bit.
BTW... I agree, concentricity can be a distraction if you can't shoot very well. You have to shoot about as well or better than your system to see a difference in improving that system. But I figured that was a given in this discussion.
This is not either/or. It is not like you can either make good concentric ammo or you can shoot well. Once you learn how to make the straight stuff, it is pretty effortless to do it every time. It takes me less than 10 minutes to run all of my cases for a given shooting session. And I do it at home, so it does not take away from trigger time, though it might eat into dry fire time a bit.
Re: Runout
Down south,
I offer you this...shoot your next match with ammo that you haven't checked the run-out on. I guarantee with 100 percent certainty that you will shoot about the same as every other match that you've competed in.
Loading for the minimum run-out is great for building confidence and I'll leave it at that.
Down south,
I offer you this...shoot your next match with ammo that you haven't checked the run-out on. I guarantee with 100 percent certainty that you will shoot about the same as every other match that you've competed in.
Loading for the minimum run-out is great for building confidence and I'll leave it at that.
Re: Runout
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Having a lot of runout isn't going to matter when your satisfied with hitting a pie plate at 100 yards, but can anyone tell me how the firing pin shoves the cartridge forward when the extractor is holding the case rim against the bolt head? </div></div>
No extractors are that tight in tolerance.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Having a lot of runout isn't going to matter when your satisfied with hitting a pie plate at 100 yards, but can anyone tell me how the firing pin shoves the cartridge forward when the extractor is holding the case rim against the bolt head? </div></div>
No extractors are that tight in tolerance.
Re: Runout
"Mite as well stop weighing powder. cases all vary in capacity so whats the point."
Now, THAT is some good advice.
Making strong guesses and emphatic arguments based on concentricity are pointless, like everything else the effect of concentricity must be tested to have any meaning. These argumemts about concentricity are so missing in context that it's amusing to read.
The specific rifle, chamber and load make big differences, not to mention the shooting skill of the user. Standing firm on limited personal experience should be recognised as only valid for the individual. This is reloading and it's an art, not a science that can be duplicated time after time.
"Mite as well stop weighing powder. cases all vary in capacity so whats the point."
Now, THAT is some good advice.
Making strong guesses and emphatic arguments based on concentricity are pointless, like everything else the effect of concentricity must be tested to have any meaning. These argumemts about concentricity are so missing in context that it's amusing to read.
The specific rifle, chamber and load make big differences, not to mention the shooting skill of the user. Standing firm on limited personal experience should be recognised as only valid for the individual. This is reloading and it's an art, not a science that can be duplicated time after time.
Re: Runout
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fuzzball
.. arguments based on concentricity are pointless, like everything else the effect of concentricity must be tested to have any meaning.</div></div>
Improving concentricity is one of the few rituals of reloading for accuracy that I can think of that has mathematical formulas predicting accuracy and test data that validates the math.
It is linear up to ~ 2 moa error possible with .004" bullet tilt in a factory factory 30-06 as tested by the Army 60 years ago and published by the NRA.
Any worse eccentricity is bent straight by the chamber, and gets the same 2moa.
You want meaning?
Focus on the word "linear"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linearity
Remember in jr high, y = mx +b ?
Now focus on that the test data is on the line predicted by the formula.
That gives the formula for concentricity affecting accuracy special meaning.
It is called a quantitative relationship.
Scientists and engineers love that.
It means we have something we have figured out, and we know we are right.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fuzzball
.. arguments based on concentricity are pointless, like everything else the effect of concentricity must be tested to have any meaning.</div></div>
Improving concentricity is one of the few rituals of reloading for accuracy that I can think of that has mathematical formulas predicting accuracy and test data that validates the math.
It is linear up to ~ 2 moa error possible with .004" bullet tilt in a factory factory 30-06 as tested by the Army 60 years ago and published by the NRA.
Any worse eccentricity is bent straight by the chamber, and gets the same 2moa.
You want meaning?
Focus on the word "linear"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linearity
Remember in jr high, y = mx +b ?
Now focus on that the test data is on the line predicted by the formula.
That gives the formula for concentricity affecting accuracy special meaning.
It is called a quantitative relationship.
Scientists and engineers love that.
It means we have something we have figured out, and we know we are right.
Re: Runout
If disremember about some tests years ago concerning that problem...They found that even with runout, if you indicated the rounds at the same point, and loaded that point in the same position in the chamber...highest or lowest, take your pick, the groups improved over random orientation in the chamber. After all, the same chamber,same orientation, and same ejector pressure...might help.
If disremember about some tests years ago concerning that problem...They found that even with runout, if you indicated the rounds at the same point, and loaded that point in the same position in the chamber...highest or lowest, take your pick, the groups improved over random orientation in the chamber. After all, the same chamber,same orientation, and same ejector pressure...might help.
Re: Runout
And a chamber off center does not loose much accuracy.
The random insertion orientation of the bent ammo is necessary for inaccuracy.
And a chamber off center does not loose much accuracy.
The random insertion orientation of the bent ammo is necessary for inaccuracy.
Re: Runout
"It is linear up to ~ 2 moa error possible with .004" bullet tilt in a factory factory 30-06 as tested by the Army 60 years ago and published by the NRA."
I read that very old article when it was republished in the Rifleman in the mid 60s and still have it around here somewhere. Thing is, for the specific rifle and ammo they used, I'm certain the results were exactly as they said ... but that's all.
The runout effect with the same ammo in another rifle would certainly have given somewhat different results on target. And it would have differed in the same rifle with a different bullet or the same bullet and a different seating depth.
Bottomline, anyone wanting to know what runout will do in their rig will have to range test it, just as Col. Whelen did.
"It is linear up to ~ 2 moa error possible with .004" bullet tilt in a factory factory 30-06 as tested by the Army 60 years ago and published by the NRA."
I read that very old article when it was republished in the Rifleman in the mid 60s and still have it around here somewhere. Thing is, for the specific rifle and ammo they used, I'm certain the results were exactly as they said ... but that's all.
The runout effect with the same ammo in another rifle would certainly have given somewhat different results on target. And it would have differed in the same rifle with a different bullet or the same bullet and a different seating depth.
Bottomline, anyone wanting to know what runout will do in their rig will have to range test it, just as Col. Whelen did.
Re: Runout
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The debate was intelligent and thought provoking...until you got involved.(george63)
As far as I'm concerned you can shove your insults attacks and antiquated advice straight up your ass. Most of your advice was cutting edge in the 1970's.
While you're at go high five the bathroom mirror as you are the only person I will intentionally ingnore. </div></div>
Holy shit, there's more rumbles in here than The Bear Pit!
Trying not to piss Carter and Cobra off, personally, I think numbers in the ".001 and .000" are a fallacy, at least in my reloading room they are. I'd have to see this first hand. </div></div>
Not a fallacy... On my match ammo I run .001" or less using a wilson inline seater cut with the reamer used for my rifles chamber.. I don't check runout on these loads any more except for one out of every ten to make sure I didn't screw something up.. Neck turning also helped with the runout numbers.. The standard wilson dies did pretty good .002" Tir or less with the occasional .003". My custom cut die is always .001" tir or less on a Sinclairs concentricity gage...
Runout alone isn't my goal in match ammo, but consistent neck tension and seating pressure is and I have seen a difference between rounds that feel harder to seat and seat really easily... I neck turn for consistent neck tension, anneal every third firing, and low runout numbers result from that any way....
I have more confidence in my hand loads and I don't have to wonder if my loads are off. Everyone of them is made just like the one before it within the best of my abilities and the variables i am willing to control for this particular rig.
I don't go through all the same prep or attention on all my loads.. Just the ones that require it and will show the difference in the end.
Just my .02
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The debate was intelligent and thought provoking...until you got involved.(george63)
As far as I'm concerned you can shove your insults attacks and antiquated advice straight up your ass. Most of your advice was cutting edge in the 1970's.
While you're at go high five the bathroom mirror as you are the only person I will intentionally ingnore. </div></div>
Holy shit, there's more rumbles in here than The Bear Pit!
Trying not to piss Carter and Cobra off, personally, I think numbers in the ".001 and .000" are a fallacy, at least in my reloading room they are. I'd have to see this first hand. </div></div>
Not a fallacy... On my match ammo I run .001" or less using a wilson inline seater cut with the reamer used for my rifles chamber.. I don't check runout on these loads any more except for one out of every ten to make sure I didn't screw something up.. Neck turning also helped with the runout numbers.. The standard wilson dies did pretty good .002" Tir or less with the occasional .003". My custom cut die is always .001" tir or less on a Sinclairs concentricity gage...
Runout alone isn't my goal in match ammo, but consistent neck tension and seating pressure is and I have seen a difference between rounds that feel harder to seat and seat really easily... I neck turn for consistent neck tension, anneal every third firing, and low runout numbers result from that any way....
I have more confidence in my hand loads and I don't have to wonder if my loads are off. Everyone of them is made just like the one before it within the best of my abilities and the variables i am willing to control for this particular rig.
I don't go through all the same prep or attention on all my loads.. Just the ones that require it and will show the difference in the end.
Just my .02
Re: Runout
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"It is linear up to ~ 2 moa error possible with .004" bullet tilt in a factory factory 30-06 as tested by the Army 60 years ago and published by the NRA."
I read that very old article when it was republished in the Rifleman in the mid 60s and still have it around here somewhere. Thing is, for the specific rifle and ammo they used, I'm certain the results were exactly as they said ... but that's all.
The runout effect with the same ammo in another rifle would certainly have given somewhat different results on target. And it would have differed in the same rifle with a different bullet or the same bullet and a different seating depth.
Bottomline, anyone wanting to know what runout will do in their rig will have to range test it, just as Col. Whelen did. </div></div>
Do you know the difference between having no meaning and being a product of more than one variable?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"It is linear up to ~ 2 moa error possible with .004" bullet tilt in a factory factory 30-06 as tested by the Army 60 years ago and published by the NRA."
I read that very old article when it was republished in the Rifleman in the mid 60s and still have it around here somewhere. Thing is, for the specific rifle and ammo they used, I'm certain the results were exactly as they said ... but that's all.
The runout effect with the same ammo in another rifle would certainly have given somewhat different results on target. And it would have differed in the same rifle with a different bullet or the same bullet and a different seating depth.
Bottomline, anyone wanting to know what runout will do in their rig will have to range test it, just as Col. Whelen did. </div></div>
Do you know the difference between having no meaning and being a product of more than one variable?
