Rifle Scopes S&B 3-20 question

[beenjammin]

Guys I purchased a S&B 3-20 from here to go on my new AX. I just now got to the range to sight my AX in as hunting season just ended. I am aware of how the new locking turrets are to be adjusted. I got the elevation dialed in perfect and reset zero with no isses, but after I did the same on my windage knob, I no longer have clicks. The turrets still moves my windage as I can see through the scope, but I cant feel any clicks. It feels like my parallax knob. The MTC still works at 0 and it locks fine. Any suggestions? I contacted Jerry and am not worried yet. I just want to know if anyone else has witnessed this?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

Welcome to club,

But hey don't worry it's "proven" ....

 

[beenjammin]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome to club,

But hey don't worry it's "proven" .... </div></div>

Man, I feared you might say this LL... So you have seen this or just other issues?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

Same happened with mine it had to go back, actually I had other issues too. My elevation acted like that, then slipped, came off and stopped working.

The locking turrets ruined the new S&B scopes, they are an abortion.

 

[Mohawk3a]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

I really like the mtc turrets.
Did you happen to pull the windage knob off when you slipped the turrets?

 

[Coloradocop]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Same happened with mine it had to go back, actually I had other issues too. My elevation acted like that, then slipped, came off and stopped working.

The locking turrets ruined the new S&B scopes, they are an abortion. </div></div>

Ugh... still putting my new 3-20x S&B through its paces on my personal rifle. I sure hope I don't have any of these problems! I always wanted one of these scopes, since it was the name that always came up when people talked about "the best". Now I've got one, just in time for the company to apparently start having problems.

I don't mind the locking turrets, or the MTC clicks, just so long as they keep working. Kind of a big concern, from the sounds of things.

 

[BigJimFish]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

Seems like a great many folks are having problems with these turrets. I remember Frank mentioning this before, not long after the 3-20x came out. At Shot one of the S&B U.S. reps was quite worried about it as well. She asked me to mention it to the president of S&B but I didn't have any details at that time except that I had heard the turrets were failing from reputable sources. The Germans that I spoke to did not seem to be aware of any issues at all beyond users removing the forbidden screw. They seemed quite insistent that the mechanism was beyond reproach. This does not seem to be the case as I hear one experienced user after another having problems. If you guys have any more, different, or more detailed experiences please post them. I'm going to make sure the head of research and development gets direct wind of it. Seems like internal communications are not getting through and some of these scopes need to be going to Germany to figure out the problem. I'm just hearing from two many people with two much experience to think this is a user issue. That has been the case for some time and I had it on my list of stuff to ask them about at Shot but without sufficient details I'm not sure I was of much help to the process.

My bet: A few scopes came back with the forbidden screw removed and it was chalked up to user error. This caused the folks in Germany to lump all failures in with those and ascertain that they did not have a problem. They asked not to hear about it any more and got their wish.

 

[Jerry R]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

I have not received a pm from you yet. One is in your box now.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJimFish</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm going to make sure the head of research and development gets direct wind of it. Seems like internal communications are not getting through and some of these scopes need to be going to Germany to figure out the problem. </div></div>

Believe me, the head of R&D is very aware of any issues and measures have been taken to remedy this.
Also, there has not been one locking MTC issue that needed to be returned to Germany for any reason that I am aware of that has come through the service center. If it went to Germany it was sent there by the customers choice.

 

[BigJimFish]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have not received a pm from you yet. One is in your box now.</div></div>

I apologize if my comments may have reflected poorly on your customer service. I am not casting aspersions on either your ability to repair scopes or the speed and thoroughness of your customer service. I am not aware of any problems in these regards. I apologize for not running my plan by you first.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Believe me, the head of R&D is very aware of any issues and measures have been taken to remedy this.</div></div>

The bottom line is that I don't think that the folks in Germany believe what some of the folks in America are telling them. This is why I had American S&B folks at Shot soliciting my help to get through to the German S&B folks. I hope that you are right and that the message has gotten through and measures have been taken in the last two weeks to fix the issue. I am quite certain that two weeks ago Germany did not think an issue existed though.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, there has not been one locking MTC issue that needed to be returned to Germany for any reason that I am aware of that has come through the service center. If it went to Germany it was sent there by the customers choice.</div></div>

My suggestion of sending scopes to Germany was not meant to be a knock on the folks at the American CS facility. Everything I have heard indicates the scopes got fixed fine though they seem to continue breaking. The suggestion was aimed at convincing the German engineers that a problem exists and giving them examples of exactly what went wrong so that they would have an easier time fixing the design problem.

 

[dangerdan87]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

Sounds like the detent turned. Maybe it just needs to be turned back to the proper position.

 

[Hairball]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

I use the same scope on my AX but I use an H37 reticle so I never have tried to change it. Looks like I might have to mess with it a little and see what happens.

 

[beenjammin]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

No, I didnt remove any turrets. Believe me, I read all the threads here and watched all the videos before even buying one. I never took the turrets off because I knew not to after all the posts here and looking through the instructions. Mine simply just failed. I didnt cross thread the screws or even over tighten them after reading Lowlight's review on it. My case was simple:I adjusted elevation and reset zero, no problem. Did the same on windage and lost clicks ( yes it feels like detent is messed up somehow.)

Good thing is, I know Jerry will take care of it. Still like the scope and it is usable. The windage still adjusts for a true 100 yard zero. Ill just use holds at the first hardrock match.

 

[diverdon]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

I wonder how common this problem is?

 

[GunDudeUSA]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

Hmm. I just ordered a 3-20 from Mile High. Should I cancel it while I still have the chance?

 

[m1match]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

I have both the S&B 5-25x56 with double turn counter clockwise turrets and the 3-20 and although the 3-20 is a nice scope and the MTC doesn't bother me, I like the old double turn turrets better for their feel and lack of MTC. Other than the compact size, I don't think the 3-20 offers any advantage over the 5-25

 

[Jeeprider]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Same happened with mine it had to go back, actually I had other issues too. My elevation acted like that, then slipped, came off and stopped working.

The locking turrets ruined the new S&B scopes, they are an abortion. </div></div>

Same thing happened to mine as well. Had to be sent back for servicing. I hate the new MTC turrets, I really don't know any other way to describe my feelings. On the other hand the 5-25 with the standard DT turrets are amazing. S&B should have went with KISS keep it simple stupid.

 

[MB4810]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

Beenjammin ,Jeeprider out of curiosity how many screws on the turret have you guys unscrewed?
page 19 of the operating manual specified to "unlock the TWO Allen head screws in the outside diameter inline with the "LOCKED" signage using an allen key(see Fig.9)
coloradocop what procedure did you use?

 

[beenjammin]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MB4810AP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Beenjammin ,Jeeprider out of curiosity how many screws on the turret have you guys unscrewed?
page 19 of the operating manual specified to "unlock the TWO Allen head screws in the outside diameter inline with the "LOCKED" signage using an allen key(see Fig.9)
coloradocop what procedure did you use?
</div></div>

Yes, only the two screws. This is not isolated incident but seems to have occurred on several of the first production ones it seems. All will be good, I just hate sending it back right when Hardrocks starts back up.

 

[Coloradocop]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MB4810AP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Beenjammin ,Jeeprider out of curiosity how many screws on the turret have you guys unscrewed?
page 19 of the operating manual specified to "unlock the TWO Allen head screws in the outside diameter inline with the "LOCKED" signage using an allen key(see Fig.9)
coloradocop what procedure did you use?
</div></div>

I unscrewed only two screws on each of the turrets when zeroing. In fact, the third allen head appears to be filled-in or rounded off intentionally to prevent loosening all three. In other words, I could only actually loosen two of the allen screws on each turret (this appears to be by design).

Is it possible that this is the fix to this problem? I mean, I just got this scope around Christmas, so I wonder if S&B has been working on a fix to the problem?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MB4810AP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Beenjammin ,Jeeprider out of curiosity how many screws on the turret have you guys unscrewed?
page 19 of the operating manual specified to "unlock the TWO Allen head screws in the outside diameter inline with the "LOCKED" signage using an allen key(see Fig.9)
coloradocop what procedure did you use?
</div></div>

This is a KNOWN Issue and not the fault of the operator ... S&B is well aware of these problems.

The Operator cannot unscrew the 3rd screw it is sealed. And with my 2 scopes that failed, they each failed in a different way around the same system. In one the 3rd screw was not holding the turret on correctly, and in the other the 3rd screw was holding the erector and moving the impact not allowing you to zero.

Both were returned and fixed ... but both had issues that were not related to the operator.

 

[Coloradocop]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MB4810AP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Beenjammin ,Jeeprider out of curiosity how many screws on the turret have you guys unscrewed?
page 19 of the operating manual specified to "unlock the TWO Allen head screws in the outside diameter inline with the "LOCKED" signage using an allen key(see Fig.9)
coloradocop what procedure did you use?
</div></div>

This is a KNOWN Issue and not the fault of the operator ... S&B is well aware of these problems.

The Operator cannot unscrew the 3rd screw it is sealed. And with my 2 scopes that failed, they each failed in a different way around the same system. In one the 3rd screw was not holding the turret on correctly, and in the other the 3rd screw was holding the erector and moving the impact not allowing you to zero.

Both were returned and fixed ... but both had issues that were not related to the operator. </div></div>

Do you know if this issue has (reportedly) been resolved in the newer 3-20x scopes? In other words, has S&B figured out the fix to this issue, or are they merely fixing them as they repeatedly fail?

I'm hoping (fingers crossed here) that I'm not going to have this issue with my new scope. But, it sure sounds like the issue is showing up around here with some degree of regularity. Hopefully Schmidt will make it right if/when I cross that bridge.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

I think it is inherent in the design, if the glue holding the screw leaks through you have an issue, if the screw is not holding correctly you have an issue. So the window for them to nail the amount of glue plus the tightness of the allen is pretty narrow.

Too much, you have a problem, not enough, a problem in the other direction. It acts like a design flaw to me, but what do I know ?

I think the 5-25x is still a better scope, and considering the money I was not impressed by the overall scope. I have since removed it and have no plans on using it unless I have too... its pretty much a plinking only scope to throw on a 2nd or 3rd tier rifle.

Sounds harsh, and trust me I own a ton of S&Bs, all bought and paid for, but they've really disappointed me lately. I can't see spending anymore of my money on them.

At the end of the day, bottom line is, if your scope works, it works, if it doesn't you'll know, send it in and have it fixed, problem solved. It's not the end of the world, it just is, the funny part is, if this was a $1500 SWFA Super Sniper the world would be on fire, and there would be very little excuses made. But when you spend $3200+ for a "proven" S&B, the justifications for spending that much covers the complaints.

 

[SLVGW360]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

Oh, how true...

Not that I necessarily agree with James Yeager, but I get a kick out of sending my friends who are 1911 fans his 1911's Suck video. They don't take it well.

I laugh. The level of ego investment is astounding, while one has to darn near apologize for getting a great scope (SWFA) at less than what makes the grade in terms of cost. I am broke so I don't worry about it. Plus, my M&P can hang with 1911s any day.

 

[dtibbals]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it is inherent in the design, if the glue holding the screw leaks through you have an issue, if the screw is not holding correctly you have an issue. So the window for them to nail the amount of glue plus the tightness of the allen is pretty narrow.

Too much, you have a problem, not enough, a problem in the other direction. It acts like a design flaw to me, but what do I know ?

I think the 5-25x is still a better scope, and considering the money I was not impressed by the overall scope. I have since removed it and have no plans on using it unless I have too... its pretty much a plinking only scope to throw on a 2nd or 3rd tier rifle.

Sounds harsh, and trust me I own a ton of S&Bs, all bought and paid for, but they've really disappointed me lately. I can't see spending anymore of my money on them.

At the end of the day, bottom line is, if your scope works, it works, if it doesn't you'll know, send it in and have it fixed, problem solved. It's not the end of the world, it just is, the funny part is, if this was a $1500 SWFA Super Sniper the world would be on fire, and there would be very little excuses made. But when you spend $3200+ for a "proven" S&B, the justifications for spending that much covers the complaints. </div></div>

So would it be worth waiting to order one for a while until current inventory is used up or is it better to go with a different brand? I do agree at that price point it is a little disappointing.

 

[pmclaine]

Re: S&B 3-20 question

I got my 5-25X LT/MTC end of November from Mile High.

Absolutely no issues when I set my zero so its not every scope. Couldnt be happier with mine. Hope the OP gets his running 100%.