Rifle Scopes S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

K

Koshy

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Dec 2, 2009
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#1
Two questions, if you had a choice between an S&B or a PR of relatively the same magnification which would you chose and why? Any reasoning is acceptable so long as you give a reason!

Second question, when/if you like to shoot out to 800-1,000 yards do you like going with a higher or a lower magnification? Higher meaning 20+ lower meaning 10-16.

Thanks,
- Koshy
 
#2
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

I'd go with the Premier 3-15x model.

First, the Premier is an excellent quality scope with all of the features (arguably) that you would want/need for engaging targets at the ranges you indicated. The are well-built, dependable, have really great glass, and most persuasive...THE PRICE. In my opinion, one of the most attractive features of the Premier is the price given the features you get on the scope for the money. It is significantly less expensive than a comparable S&B which leaves you more money in your pocket for rings/bases/mounts/ammo/reloading supplies/etc. I am not saying that the optics on the PH are quite as good as the S&B (they aren't), but for the money...you really can't go wrong!!

As for magnification...I'd stick with models that go up to around 15x or so. The problem with a FFP reticle scope with a very high magnification is that at its higher settings and longer ranges, the reticle can really start to get in the way. I am sure that others will disagree, but my experience is that you don't need 20-25x for the vast majority of shooting.
 
#3
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

I hope it's possible to address some technical aspects without this thread going the route of so many other "this vs. that" threads. "Vs" should not be read in the sense that one is "good" and the other is "bad", it's obviously rather "good vs. better" and someone's trying to make up his mind here which one is better for <span style="font-style: italic">him</span>. I think that is a perfectly understandable endeavour.

With variables, it is not strictly a question of "how much magnification do I need" but also "how little do I need". If you can dial down far enough, there is no downside to extra top end magnification that you may or may not need, except for the extra bulk/cost.

If you are worried that too much magnification at the top end is going to limit versatility at the low end, keep in mind that the Premier 5-25x has a wider field of view on 5x than the competition you are mentioning has on 4x. Have a good look at the FOV numbers, not just the magnification, when you chose your scope.

Some more technical features that separate the Premier scopes from the competition besides: Lockable diopter adjustment, as much (5-25x) or significantly more (3-15x) elevation than the competition, no tunneling effect on low power (meaning much more FOV on low power than comparable scopes), illumination dial that is locked in the "off" position and unlikely to be switched on accidently and knobs that offer toolless zero, MTC option and double turn option with Mil adjustment.

Since I'm obviously biased, I'll stick with technical data and features here.
wink.gif
 
#4
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

Yea I was noticing a lot of that technical data too, as well as it being shorter in length at least for the 3-15 versus the 4-16. More elevation was great, double turn is very easy to know when you are on the second turn. Also the illumination being built into the parallax turret for me was a huge +.

One concern I had was the fact there are no numbers on the parallax for the PR-H, which for some isn't an issue because they just dial until they find proper parallax but I would think having a general knowledge of if you are close to the proper parallax would be helpful... not to mention quicker?

This is by no means suppose to be a war between the two... just a look at features and technicals.

Some may say the P4/Fine is better then the GEN2 XR because it clearly seperates the center from the rest of the reticle thus allowing for quicker aquisition and less chance of "losing" your target in the reticle? Has this been your experience with the PR-H?

As for price up here in Canada, prices are comprable right now -.- between the 3-15 PR-H and the 4-16 S&B PM II

Thanks,
- Koshy
 
#5
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

I've no experience with S&B but I am very happy with my Premier 3-15x with XR reticle.

So far I have shot at local range from 400m to 1000 yard with 10x and did not need higer magnification to hit paper target and steel plate.

I'm comtemplating selling my 22x NF to get a 25x Premier just so that I have a common reticle & turret. Since I'm new at shooting so this all just my personal preference from my limited experience todate.

Happy New Year 2010.
 
#6
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

S&B and Premier are two very good scopes. How to choose, and which power to get?

First power:

You don't say what you plan on shooting @ 800-1000 yds., but lets assume for the moment it's a steel target 24"x24".

And the 4 scopes your choosing between are:

PH 3-15x50mm
PH 5-25x56mm
S&B 4-16x50mm
S&B 5-25x56mm

So @ 800 yds that 2'x 2' target would appear looking through the scopes like it is:

@ 15x 53.3 yds
@ 16x 50 yds
@ 25x 32 yds

At 1000 yds that 2'x 2' target would appear looking through the scopes like it is:

@ 15x 66.7 yds
@ 16x 62.5 yds
@ 25x 40 yds.

All this illustrates is that 25x does not buy you much in resolution or hit ability on targets as large as 2' square, at ranges under 1000 yds. Only if your target is far smaller, or much farther away can you really use or need the precision of 25x more than say what 15 or 16x gives you.

Therefore, what your target is; how big is it; and how far away will it be; should drive your decision process.

Based on the above, once you decided on whether 15 or 16x gets the nod, or 25x gets the nod, then you are down to two scopes. How do you decide between them?

You then evaluate your needs and the features each provides:

Size, weight, reticles, adjustment range, type of adjustments, glass quality, ruggedness, customer service after the sale, where do you return the scope to after buying it, if it breaks; price, re-saleability, and whatever other things YOU think are important.

Do that and which you should buy will become obvious. If not; just flip a coin......as all the scopes your considering are very, very good.
 
#7
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

I have both-- I've only shot twice with my Premier 5-25x XR (recent post-deployment present to myself) and have shot with S&B 5-25x XRs for about a year. The only advantage that the S&B 5-25x has on the Premier is its ability to focus at short distances (just over 30 feet). I dry fire in my house, so the 5-25x's ability to focus the scope down my hallway for practice is very nice. The S&B 4-16x's can't focus that close.

Other than S&B's ability to focus close, the Premier is a much better value and holds its own or surpasses the S&B with every other feature.

I'm not going to get into the optical quality argument. Given low mirage, I can spot .308 bullet holes in paper at 200Y and bullet holes against high-vis targets to 400Y with both. At 1K, both are more than sufficient for shooting F-class targets.

I run my 5-25x's on my 308, 300WM, and my 22lr trainer--a 25x scope is overkill for all, but I shoot a lot of paper at 100 and 200. The higher power allows me to spot my shots easier without lugging a spotter with me.

P4F is a good reticle, but the XR rocks when you start shooting holdovers.
 
#8
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

I would go with the premier but a 5 x 25 model, I have 2 and you can always use it if you need it but dont have to .
at 1000 yds I shoot at 20X
also the premiers can be repaiered if needed here in the good old USA
the S&B have to go to the father land!!!

Both very nice also the premiers have the "logical " ccw elevation adjustment where the S&B its a mod


Bill
 
#10
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

I thought that S&B was setting up a repair depot in North America. I don't think you could go wrong with either scope in general, but I will add +1 on the PH 3-15X50. The only thing I wish was that it weighed less.
 
#11
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Ma

On magnification, with this quality of scopes 15/16X is plenty. You should be able to clearly see small targets at 1000 with it. If you want to see your hits on paper as someone mentioned then the higher magnification is worth a look. Personally on higher magnification scopes I like the P4F, I haven't been that fond of the XR. On anything 3-12/15 or 4-16 I like a good old mildot. Really at this level of optics you can't really go wrong with either, even if PR prices go up I still think they are worth a look against the Schmidts. As for features thats a personal thing. The easy zero turrets on the PR are awsome if you have a multi caliber switch barrel system or you move your optics around alot. Other than that I think everything else is a non issue, they both rock pick one a go shoot.
 
#12
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Ma

What are the warranties on Premier scopes? And I thought the 3-15 model had 34mil of elevation? I keep looking on swfa.com and see that the max is 27mil. Boy is there a lot of options its sort of hard to find what I am looking for.
 
#13
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Ma

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TimResin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are the warranties on Premier scopes? And I thought the 3-15 model had 34mil of elevation? I keep looking on swfa.com and see that the max is 27mil. Boy is there a lot of options its sort of hard to find what I am looking for.</div></div>
Lifetime warranty not limited to original owner.

27mil is elevation accessible with the DT knob in two revolutions, 34mil is total internal elevation.
 
#14
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Ma

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TimResin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are the warranties on Premier scopes? And I thought the 3-15 model had 34mil of elevation? I keep looking on swfa.com and see that the max is 27mil. Boy is there a lot of options its sort of hard to find what I am looking for. </div></div>

They have plenty of travel to take a 308 out to it's end. I haven't had to use the second turn of the PR yet.
 
#15
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Ma

TimResin, the 9002 model is most likely what you want. It's the double-turn 27 mRad, CCW turret (like most every scope sold in North America) with MTC clicks, and mil-dot reticle. They do make a mindboggling number of choices available. If in doubt, I'd give the vendor a call before ordering.
 
#17
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Ma

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You American's have it so good with your cheap prices! lol.

Thanks,
- Koshy </div></div>
We invite you to spend your euros, yen, yuan or whatever here in the USA!
 
#18
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Ma

I bought a S&B 5-25X56 with Gen II reticle and I'm happy with what it looks like. I think I'd have preferred the Gen II XR, but that one is pretty tough to locate.
 
#19
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Ma

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TimResin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are the warranties on Premier scopes? And I thought the 3-15 model had 34mil of elevation? I keep looking on swfa.com and see that the max is 27mil. Boy is there a lot of options its sort of hard to find what I am looking for.</div></div>
Lifetime warranty not limited to original owner.

27mil is elevation accessible with the DT knob in two revolutions, 34mil is total internal elevation. </div></div>

When I had a 3-15x DT heritage, I had 25mils (90 MOA) of elevation available from my 100yd zero on a 20 moa base. I had enough elevation to use my .308 as a mortar
smile.gif


I traded it for a 3-15 with a 15mil ST turret. I have 14.3mils of elevation on the knob. If I need more than that from my 100yd zero I could just zero at 200 or 300 yds.

whichever you choose I'd get the the 15x/16x version. and a single turn knob. I don't care for the Illumination knob placement on the S&B. that, price, and the MTC clicks are why I picked up a Heritage.

I've used both reticles in the heritage. the mildot is nicer for the lower half of the magnification and the XR is nicer for the upper half.

If I could get a custom reticle it would be a combination of the 2. it would have the thickness, center only illumination, dot size, and hash size of the gen 2 mildot but have 10 mils of holdover and the windage holds of the XR.

HTH,
LM
 
#20
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Ma

So what you mean when you say the scope has 34mil of internal adjustment and only 27mil on the DT knob is that if you need to, you can slip the knob that extra 7 mil?
 
#21
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two questions, if you had a choice between an S&B or a PR of relatively the same magnification which would you chose and why? Any reasoning is acceptable so long as you give a reason!

Second question, when/if you like to shoot out to 800-1,000 yards do you like going with a higher or a lower magnification? Higher meaning 20+ lower meaning 10-16.

Thanks,
- Koshy </div></div>
I've never used a Premier scope, so I can't reply to your first question. About your second question, you should remember that a variable 20+x scope can be dialed down to less than 10x, so it can be used at lower magnification. When I first purchased a USO scope I had to decide between the 17x and 22x SN-3. I asked John Williams which scope would have a better image at 17x, and his answer was the 22x. So, if you go for the 20+x scope, you also get the 10-16x scope as well.
 
#22
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

Between my S&B 5-25 and my PR 3-15, its a wash. I like the gen II XR reticle better than the P4F, but the glass of the S&B is a bit better. With the 5-25, I rarely had the mag up beyond 17x. Take that for what its worth.
 
#23
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

Canada... lol not Europe :p Secondly without a hella lotta paperwork you cannot get any scopes out of your Country... and even then still may not be allowed -.-

Moon-raker did you mean the P4F? Didn't think S&B had the GEN II XR...

Luvman why the ST rather then the DT? The DT has 14.3 mils on the first level anyway, why not have the extra upon getting into the second level?

Thanks,
- Koshy
 
#24
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Luvman why the ST rather then the DT? The DT has 14.3 mils on the first level anyway, why not have the extra upon getting into the second level?</div></div>


I don't have a need for more than 14.3 mils. the farthest I've shot my .308 is 950 yds. I needed 10.8 mils to get there with 175 gr GMM. the DT knob adds extra height and bulk to an already heavy scope. I didn't need that either.

If I were shooting something like a .300WM to it's outer limits on a regular basis and wanted a 100yd zero, then I'd opt for the DT. other than that I'd go with a single turn.

the single turn knob hits a mechanical stop at 14.3 mils. the DT continues around to give you a full 15mils on the first rev. There's still plenty of travel in the scope. If 14.3 mils from a 100yd zero isn't enough travel just zero at a farther distance and reset the knob to zero. Then there's 14.3 mils of travel from the new zero.

And lastly I'll never have to worry about which turn I'm on. I only have one
smile.gif
I doubt you'd get lost on the DT knob though. the indicator works well.

HTH,
LM
 
#25
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

I just received my 5-25 PRH the other day, I leave the house around 0445 and come home at 1900, so my only experience is inside my house, at 5 power I have no problem focusing on pictures on the wall at 15 feet, the scope is big, but not as heavy as I expected, the knobs are also big, the clicks feel good, at first I thought the illumination was screwed up, as you adjust it the reticle goes dark then reappears brighter as you go thru each setting. I really wanted a S&B, but the price of the PRH was almost a grand cheaper, I think S&B is the standard by which all scopes are judged by, and if this scope turns out to a POS I will probably go back to my Nightforce.
 
#26
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Luvman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Luvman why the ST rather then the DT? The DT has 14.3 mils on the first level anyway, why not have the extra upon getting into the second level?</div></div>


I don't have a need for more than 14.3 mils. the farthest I've shot my .308 is 950 yds. I needed 10.8 mils to get there with 175 gr GMM. the DT knob adds extra height and bulk to an already heavy scope. I didn't need that either.

If I were shooting something like a .300WM to it's outer limits on a regular basis and wanted a 100yd zero, then I'd opt for the DT. other than that I'd go with a single turn.

the single turn knob hits a mechanical stop at 14.3 mils. the DT continues around to give you a full 15mils on the first rev. There's still plenty of travel in the scope. If 14.3 mils from a 100yd zero isn't enough travel just zero at a farther distance and reset the knob to zero. Then there's 14.3 mils of travel from the new zero.

And lastly I'll never have to worry about which turn I'm on. I only have one
smile.gif
I doubt you'd get lost on the DT knob though. the indicator works well.

HTH,
LM </div></div>

I see, yea getting lost shouldn't be an issue with the nub that pops out :p You had me worried like there was some huge concern over using a DT with PR-H... when in actuality for your use 14.3 mils is more then enough
smile.gif
Thanks for getting back so fast
smile.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just received my 5-25 PRH the other day, I leave the house around 0445 and come home at 1900, so my only experience is inside my house, at 5 power I have no problem focusing on pictures on the wall at 15 feet, the scope is big, but not as heavy as I expected, the knobs are also big, the clicks feel good, at first I thought the illumination was screwed up, as you adjust it the reticle goes dark then reappears brighter as you go thru each setting. I really wanted a S&B, but the price of the PRH was almost a grand cheaper, I think S&B is the standard by which all scopes are judged by, and if this scope turns out to a POS I will probably go back to my Nightforce. </div></div>

Yea the weight difference between the 3-15 and the 5-25 is 1 ounce... shouldn't notice that at all... also weight comparision to the S&B is about equal.

Dude I love the way they set up the illumination, especially compared to competitors... it means you can turn off the illumination with just one "click" and the same for on..., instead of having to go from 11 power all the way down to 0... etc... it also means you can get back to your previous setting in hundredths of a second :p

Question is how important is illumination to you
smile.gif
Short of low light shooting and some tactical speed stuff it won't matter much...

From everything I read and heard about PR... you shouldn't be disappointed (Read around on these forums especially)... but please get back to me with your feelings once you have had a little more time with it!

Thanks,
- Koshy
 
#27
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

I brought it to work with me today, the glass is very good, this is my first all MilRad scope, getting used to the fine separation on the clicks compared to NF is another learning experience for me, so far I'm impressed with it, I like the size of the knobs, I tried to practice ranging with it out to 800 yards, I got alot of practice to do with that, in the past I have complained about the half Mil hashes and full mil dots, I still feel the same, I wish the reticle was more like a NF MLR reticle, but I do like the Xmas tree of death. My new rifle is at the gunsimth now, and I'm not going to swap out scopes on my other rifle so it will be a couple more before I send rounds downrange with it
 
#28
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

I am looking to pick up a premier. I have heard some really good things about them. I am new at the long range stuff and was wondering how easy this scope is to use. I am working to get to a formal sniper class when I return from this trip. I would like to be able to take my rifle out with me on the flat range days. Is the NF better for a newer shooter then the PR? thanks guys
 
#29
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moon-raker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bought a S&B 5-25X56 with Gen II reticle and I'm happy with what it looks like. I think I'd have preferred the Gen II XR, but that one is pretty tough to locate. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...Moon-raker did you mean the P4F? Didn't think S&B had the GEN II XR...

Thanks,

- Koshy
</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Koshy</span></span>,

Premier Reticles used to provide technical services such as adjustment conversions (MOA-to-CM and vice-versa, Elevation and Windage rotation direction conversion), and reticle retrofitting/replacement. Some of the reticles retrofitted were the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Gen 2 XL</span></span> and <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Gen 2 XR</span></span>, both of which are patented Premier Reticles designs. As the designs are currently patent-protected and Premier no longer retrofits S & B scopes, S & Bs' equipped with PR reticles have become somewhat hard-to-find.

There are also a number of "100% German" PMII Gen 2 XRs' (scopes with <span style="font-style: italic">factory-installed Gen 2 XR reticles</span>). I own two PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XRs, each of which I paid very dearly for. I sent my first to S & B Germany to have the knobs converted to CCW (Counterclockwise) rotation, and I will soon be sending my recently purchased second scope to S & B to have the knobs converted to CCW as well. I have been told by an authorized S & B dealer and a S & B USA representative that all <span style="font-style: italic">"German Gen 2 XRs' are CW"</span>, which is the default for European scopes anyway.

I don't know the numbers, but I'm sure that the "100% German/German" Gen 2 XR scopes are more rare than the scopes retrofitted by Premier. "German" Gen 2 XR CCW scopes are very rare (as mentioned S & Bs' are CW by default). If you see one and the owner knows what it is, if he/she is willing to sell it I'm sure that they will ask a very pretty penny for it.

S & B USA will allegedly get their U.S.-based Technical Services up and running in Q1 2010. I (and I'm sure all U.S. owners of S & B scopes) would love to see that happen, but at the same time I don't want them to rush the technical training.

I hope that having service work done Stateside will lower the cost of the CCW conversion - although I'm not holding my breath. Last year I was quoted $500.00 U.S. for the CCW conversion.

Keith
 
#30
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RainbowSandals</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am looking to pick up a premier. I have heard some really good things about them. I am new at the long range stuff and was wondering how easy this scope is to use.</div></div>
There's really nothing complicated about these scopes. Zeroing is toolless and done in about 30 seconds (plus pulling the trigger a couple times
wink.gif
), and there is a zero stop that works as such right away without doing any set up at all. If you get a single turn model there is nothing I'm aware of that could be more simple adjustment-wise, 15 or 22 MILs of elevation readily available in one turn of the knob without getting lost in revolutions, and with the MTC clicks large adjustments can be done very fast and without the need for a visual check. The eypiece is fast-focus and lockable, illumination is easily adjustable under field conditions.

Just because it's an expensive piece of equipment doesn't mean it's complicated, it's rather the other way 'round.
 
#31
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two questions, if you had a choice between an S&B or a PR of relatively the same magnification which would you chose and why? Any reasoning is acceptable so long as you give a reason!</div></div>
The answer to this first question is largely subjective, and is typically asked on a weekly basis here. Your optics decision should be driven by what you want a scope to allow you to do - not by what other people want, "need", or say is "cool". I think you know this. That said, its' important to do your own research, and part of that research is asking questions like you are. I tell myself that everytime someone who has seen my post with a photo of my Premier 5-25X (27 MIL DT) and PMII 5-25X (26 MIL DT) side-by-side PMs me or directs the <span style="font-style: italic">"Whats' better, Premier or S & B"</span> question to me in a thread.

And my answer is always the same - it isn't a clear-cut decision, as each has it's own strengths and weaknesses which will have varying importance to you, if at all. While I did like my Premier 5-25X 27 MIL DT Gen 2 XR, ultimately I decided to sell it and - at substantial additional cost ($3,050.00 total U.S.), buy a second "100 percent German" 5-25X PMII DT LP CM CW Gen 2 XR.

There was nothing "wrong" with my Premier 5-25X - it was (and is) a great scope. The image quality was outstanding, the build-quality appeared excellent, and the Premier 5-25X (as well as the Premier 3-15X) possesses a feature set that - for the most part, is superior to the PMII line. <span style="font-weight: bold">All at a much lower cost than the PMII 5-25X</span>. So why did I sell my Premier 5-25X? <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Because the S & B suits my needs better. Period</span></span>.

I had a chance to use and compare my Premier 5-25X 27 MIL DT Gen 2 XR and to a Premier 3-15X 27 MIL DT Gen 2 XR, as well as alongside my PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR CCW. I have also shot rifles with PMII 4-16X 50s' equipped with the P3 (Standard Mildot), Gen 2 XR, P4, and P4F reticles (but on separate occasions so no side-by-side comparison could be made).

I have also owned and used a really great USO, and I can honestly say I like my S & B the best overall, with close seconds to the Premier. The S & B has some advantages over the Premier, and vice-versa but they are very close. So close that the Premier is probably the better choice unless money doesn't matter to you. The Premier is definitely a better value.

S & B and Premier (when Premier still worked on S & B scopes) used to charge $175.00 for a CCW conversion, $250.00 for a Gen 2 XR reticle conversion, and $350.00 for an illuminated Gen 2 XR reticle conversion. A few months ago S & B quoted me $500.00 for the CCW conversion. Thats' insane, especially when you can buy a PH 5-25X Gen 2 XR for much less BNIB from Liberty Optics.

You may or may not know this, but S & B and Premier are no longer working together - in fact last i heard there is pending litigation between the two companies. As such, Premier is no longer installing their Gen 2 and Gen 2 XR reticles into S & B scopes. This is the primary reason why PMIIs' with the Gen 2 XR are becoming harder-to-find/more expensive - the "German Gen 2 XR" scopes even more so.

So, here are some reasons why I prefer the S & B over the Premier. And of course, some or all of these reasons may be moot to you for one reason or another. Please note that these are my observations in my scopes, and the same may or may not hold true for other samples of the respective scopes.

For more insight read my reply to Goldie in his <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Premier or S & B</span></span> thread from about 4 months ago. My post in that thread has direct feature comparisons in sort of a bullet point format. Try to disregard the pissing match between <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Turk</span></span>, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Gen 2 Mildot</span></span>, and <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">HuDisCo</span></span>.

The clicks on the S & B are sharper, more precise, and more definite. I understand that the upgraded "clickers" that Premier is sending out (and which I received but but did not install before I sold my Premier) transform the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Premier's mushy clicks</span></span> (compared to S & B). From what some people who have the upgraded clickers have said, the difference is like night & day. Some went so far as to say that their clicks are now better than S & B clicks, but you can also see that at least half of the people who have the upgraded "clickers" have stated that while the clicks are much better than before, they still aren't S & B clicks. To me that means that the clicks aren't as sharp, crisp, or as definite as S & B's. And spinning the turrets a bit of Premiers' with the upgraded clickers at the range has IMO confimed this for me.

However, even if I had installed the new clickers and the clicks had been as good as or "better" than on my S & B there are other things that are swaying me - the Premier's parallax knob and the differences in appearance of the Gen 2 XR reticles in the S & B and Premier 5-25Xs'.

Before I go into my hatred of Premier's parallax knob I need to set the groundwork so you understand my perspective and why I feel the way I do. You may already know this, but when focusing you shouldn't look through the scope for more than a couple of seconds at a time while adjusting the parallax because your eye will automatically begin to compensate to bring the image into focus. This is why people who look through the scope for longer than 3 seconds at a time without looking away while adjusting the parallax setting all in one long turn sometimes get eyestrain. Same thing happens when someone is setting up the reticle/ocular focus.

Below is the correct procedure for Diopter (Ocular/Eyepiece) adjustment for both fixed and variable power scopes. The procedure is the same regardless of scope manufacturer, or whether the objective/parallax focus is on the objective ring or is a side focus type.

<span style="font-weight: bold">NOTE:</span> If the scope is a fixed power unit skip steps 1 and 2 as they do not apply.

(1) Turn the magnification ring to maximum (highest power).

(2) Turn the Parallax focus to "Infinity" (the symbol for Infinity looks like a figure eight). <span style="font-weight: bold">NOTE:</span> Most non-side focus scopes use a ring on the objective bell to adjust parallax, and the distances are usually numbered. Side focus parallax adjustment knobs may or may not have distances marked.

(3) Turn the ocular bell/eyepiece all the way in.

(4) Aim the scope at a cloudless section of the sky (you don't want anything except sky in the view, or else your eye will naturally attempt to focus on the object in the view beyond the reticle.

(5) Look at something nearby, but not too close, then look through the scope at the reticle. If the reticle is out-of-focus turn it a bit to begin to focusing the reticle, but look away from the scope. Never look at the reticle for more than a couple of seconds when adjusting the eyepiece (if you look at the reticle for more than a second or two your eye will naturally begin to adjust to bring the reticle into focus - and you don't want this to happen. <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">You want to be able to look through the scope and see a sharply focused reticle immediately with your eye relaxed</span></span>). This cannot be achieved by continuously looking through the scope and turning the eyepiece into focus in one continous motion because your eye will have already begun to adjust.

Remember, look away every few seconds and make small adjustments to dial-in the Ocular/Eyepiece focus. Once you have achieved this, you should not adjust the eyepiece at all, except to maintain proper focus as your vision changes over time <span style="font-style: italic">(it always does).</span> You may want to put a pen mark on the eyepiece indexed to the index dot on the scope tube - if the tube doesn't have an index mark use a pencil. That way, if someone else shoots your rifle and adjusts the Ocular you know where to return the adjustment to.

Now, because the Premier's parallax knob has no distance markings, unless you tape, paint, etch, or otherwise mark the parallax knob distances yourself you have no idea what distance the parallax is set to. This requires you to look through the scope and turn the knob to figure-out what direction you need to turn the knob. That is BS. I want to be able to glance at the parallax knob and know what is adjusted to. This in turn tells me what direction I need to turn the knob to in order to focus at the next distance and/or target.

The Premier's parallax knob also seems to have a slower, more fine adjustment range. While this sounds better, in use it actually slows down the focusing operation even more, which as mentioned above works against you.

The S & B has markings (albeit in meters) so I just dial the parallax knob close to the marked setting, peep through the scope and I'm usually right-on or close enough to fine tune within a couple of seconds. Done.

Another thing <span style="font-weight: bold">for me</span> - is the reticle. Despite the fact that the S & B 5-25X Gen 2 XR and the Premier 5-25X Gen 2 XR reticles have the same subtensions on paper, when you look through the scopes the reticles appear quite different. <span style="font-weight: bold">Disclaimer:</span> This is with the understanding that although scope tubes may have marked magnification settings, the scope more than likely has not been calibrated to that exact power. This makes the reticle comparison rather random.

The S & B Gen 2 XR reticle <span style="font-style: italic">appears</span> more fine, and as a result it will have less of a tendency to obscure the target. The smaller the target is the more important this small detail becomes. When you are looking at a 5" target at 1,000 yards you want a very fine reticle indeed. However, the S & B Gen 2 XR is a little less "black" than the Premier's Gen 2 XR reticle, and combined with the extra "fineness" could be an issue against dark backgrounds in daylight.

The Premier Gen 2 XR reticle is slightly more coarse, and appears "blacker". The slightly more coarse (thicker) reticle may not work as well for quartering small targets, but it would seem to be an asset overall, as the easier-to-see reticle is preferred by most people over a fine one. Especially for time-sensitive tactical matches.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Second question, when/if you like to shoot out to 800-1,000 yards do you like going with a higher or a lower magnification? Higher meaning 20+ lower meaning 10-16.

Thanks,
- Koshy </div></div>
I've shot out to a Swarovski LG30-ranged 1,080 yards. I prefer the PMII and Premier 5-25Xs' with the Gen 2 XR reticle because I tend to shoot at small targets, frequently estimated at 1/2 MOA or less. Mirage notwithstanding, the higher magnification and clarity of these high-end scopes allows more precise aiming by "quartering" the target.

Something else to keep in mind is that variable optics to tend to suffer from reduced clarity at their highest magnification settings. While this is less prevalent in higher-end scopes it still exists. Generally speaking, if you dial a Premier 3-15X to 15X and compare it to a Premier 5-25X set to 15X the 5-25X will have better clarity. The same is true of a PMII 4-16X at 16X when compared to a PMII 5-25X at "16X", which you have to "eyeball", as there is no "16X" setting on the 5-25X's tube.

Also, even when I am shooting at a paper bull or steel plate 8" in diameter, <span style="font-style: italic">I'm not really shooting at an 8" target</span> - I'm shooting/aiming at the spot where the reticle intersection (crosshair) lies. <span style="font-style: italic">Aim small, miss small</span>.

Keith
 
#32
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aries64</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moon-raker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bought a S&B 5-25X56 with Gen II reticle and I'm happy with what it looks like. I think I'd have preferred the Gen II XR, but that one is pretty tough to locate. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...Moon-raker did you mean the P4F? Didn't think S&B had the GEN II XR...

Thanks,

- Koshy
</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Koshy</span></span>,

Premier Reticles used to provide technical services such as adjustment conversions (MOA-to-CM and vice-versa, Elevation and Windage rotation direction conversion), and reticle retrofitting/replacement. Some of the reticles retrofitted were the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Gen 2 XL</span></span> and <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Gen 2 XR</span></span>, both of which are patented Premier Reticles designs. As the designs are currently patent-protected and Premier no longer retrofits S & B scopes, S & Bs' equipped with PR reticles have become somewhat hard-to-find.

There are also a number of "100% German" PMII Gen 2 XRs' (scopes with <span style="font-style: italic">factory-installed Gen 2 XR reticles</span>). I own two PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XRs, each of which I paid very dearly for. I sent my first to S & B Germany to have the knobs converted to CCW (Counterclockwise) rotation, and I will soon be sending my recently purchased second scope to S & B to have the knobs converted to CCW as well. I have been told by an authorized S & B dealer and a S & B USA representative that all <span style="font-style: italic">"German Gen 2 XRs' are CW"</span>, which is the default for European scopes anyway.

I don't know the numbers, but I'm sure that the "100% German/German" Gen 2 XR scopes are more rare than the scopes retrofitted by Premier. "German" Gen 2 XR CCW scopes are very rare (as mentioned S & Bs' are CW by default). If you see one and the owner knows what it is, if he/she is willing to sell it I'm sure that they will ask a very pretty penny for it.

S & B USA will allegedly get their U.S.-based Technical Services up and running in Q1 2010. I (and I'm sure all U.S. owners of S & B scopes) would love to see that happen, but at the same time I don't want them to rush the technical training.

I hope that having service work done Stateside will lower the cost of the CCW conversion - although I'm not holding my breath. Last year I was quoted $500.00 U.S. for the CCW conversion.

Keith </div></div>

Why the CCW? To be different? Are you left handed so it's easier? There has got to be a reason you would drop $500 for changing the turret to CCW!

Thanks,
- Koshy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aries64</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two questions, if you had a choice between an S&B or a PR of relatively the same magnification which would you chose and why? Any reasoning is acceptable so long as you give a reason!</div></div>
The answer to this first question is largely subjective, and is typically asked on a weekly basis here. Your optics decision should be driven by what you want a scope to allow you to do - not by what other people want, "need", or say is "cool". I think you know this. That said, its' important to do your own research, and part of that research is asking questions like you are. I tell myself that everytime someone who has seen my post with a photo of my Premier 5-25X (27 MIL DT) and PMII 5-25X (26 MIL DT) side-by-side PMs me or directs the <span style="font-style: italic">"Whats' better, Premier or S & B"</span> question to me in a thread.

And my answer is always the same - it isn't a clear-cut decision, as each has it's own strengths and weaknesses which will have varying importance to you, if at all. While I did like my Premier 5-25X 27 MIL DT Gen 2 XR, ultimately I decided to sell it and - at substantial additional cost ($3,050.00 total U.S.), buy a second "100 percent German" 5-25X PMII DT LP CM CW Gen 2 XR.

There was nothing "wrong" with my Premier 5-25X - it was (and is) a great scope. The image quality was outstanding, the build-quality appeared excellent, and the Premier 5-25X (as well as the Premier 3-15X) possesses a feature set that - for the most part, is superior to the PMII line. <span style="font-weight: bold">All at a much lower cost than the PMII 5-25X</span>. So why did I sell my Premier 5-25X? <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Because the S & B suits my needs better. Period</span></span>.

I had a chance to use and compare my Premier 5-25X 27 MIL DT Gen 2 XR and to a Premier 3-15X 27 MIL DT Gen 2 XR, as well as alongside my PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR CCW. I have also shot rifles with PMII 4-16X 50s' equipped with the P3 (Standard Mildot), Gen 2 XR, P4, and P4F reticles (but on separate occasions so no side-by-side comparison could be made).

I have also owned and used a really great USO, and I can honestly say I like my S & B the best overall, with close seconds to the Premier. The S & B has some advantages over the Premier, and vice-versa but they are very close. So close that the Premier is probably the better choice unless money doesn't matter to you. The Premier is definitely a better value.

S & B and Premier (when Premier still worked on S & B scopes) used to charge $175.00 for a CCW conversion, $250.00 for a Gen 2 XR reticle conversion, and $350.00 for an illuminated Gen 2 XR reticle conversion. A few months ago S & B quoted me $500.00 for the CCW conversion. Thats' insane, especially when you can buy a PH 5-25X Gen 2 XR for much less BNIB from Liberty Optics.

You may or may not know this, but S & B and Premier are no longer working together - in fact last i heard there is pending litigation between the two companies. As such, Premier is no longer installing their Gen 2 and Gen 2 XR reticles into S & B scopes. This is the primary reason why PMIIs' with the Gen 2 XR are becoming harder-to-find/more expensive - the "German Gen 2 XR" scopes even more so.

So, here are some reasons why I prefer the S & B over the Premier. And of course, some or all of these reasons may be moot to you for one reason or another. Please note that these are my observations in my scopes, and the same may or may not hold true for other samples of the respective scopes.

For more insight read my reply to Goldie in his <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Premier or S & B</span></span> thread from about 4 months ago. My post in that thread has direct feature comparisons in sort of a bullet point format. Try to disregard the pissing match between <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Turk</span></span>, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Gen 2 Mildot</span></span>, and <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">HuDisCo</span></span>.

The clicks on the S & B are sharper, more precise, and more definite. I understand that the upgraded "clickers" that Premier is sending out (and which I received but but did not install before I sold my Premier) transform the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Premier's mushy clicks</span></span> (compared to S & B). From what some people who have the upgraded clickers have said, the difference is like night & day. Some went so far as to say that their clicks are now better than S & B clicks, but you can also see that at least half of the people who have the upgraded "clickers" have stated that while the clicks are much better than before, they still aren't S & B clicks. To me that means that the clicks aren't as sharp, crisp, or as definite as S & B's. And spinning the turrets a bit of Premiers' with the upgraded clickers at the range has IMO confimed this for me.

However, even if I had installed the new clickers and the clicks had been as good as or "better" than on my S & B there are other things that are swaying me - the Premier's parallax knob and the differences in appearance of the Gen 2 XR reticles in the S & B and Premier 5-25Xs'.

Before I go into my hatred of Premier's parallax knob I need to set the groundwork so you understand my perspective and why I feel the way I do. You may already know this, but when focusing you shouldn't look through the scope for more than a couple of seconds at a time while adjusting the parallax because your eye will automatically begin to compensate to bring the image into focus. This is why people who look through the scope for longer than 3 seconds at a time without looking away while adjusting the parallax setting all in one long turn sometimes get eyestrain. Same thing happens when someone is setting up the reticle/ocular focus.

Below is the correct procedure for Diopter (Ocular/Eyepiece) adjustment for both fixed and variable power scopes. The procedure is the same regardless of scope manufacturer, or whether the objective/parallax focus is on the objective ring or is a side focus type.

<span style="font-weight: bold">NOTE:</span> If the scope is a fixed power unit skip steps 1 and 2 as they do not apply.

(1) Turn the magnification ring to maximum (highest power).

(2) Turn the Parallax focus to "Infinity" (the symbol for Infinity looks like a figure eight). <span style="font-weight: bold">NOTE:</span> Most non-side focus scopes use a ring on the objective bell to adjust parallax, and the distances are usually numbered. Side focus parallax adjustment knobs may or may not have distances marked.

(3) Turn the ocular bell/eyepiece all the way in.

(4) Aim the scope at a cloudless section of the sky (you don't want anything except sky in the view, or else your eye will naturally attempt to focus on the object in the view beyond the reticle.

(5) Look at something nearby, but not too close, then look through the scope at the reticle. If the reticle is out-of-focus turn it a bit to begin to focusing the reticle, but look away from the scope. Never look at the reticle for more than a couple of seconds when adjusting the eyepiece (if you look at the reticle for more than a second or two your eye will naturally begin to adjust to bring the reticle into focus - and you don't want this to happen. <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">You want to be able to look through the scope and see a sharply focused reticle immediately with your eye relaxed</span></span>). This cannot be achieved by continuously looking through the scope and turning the eyepiece into focus in one continous motion because your eye will have already begun to adjust.

Remember, look away every few seconds and make small adjustments to dial-in the Ocular/Eyepiece focus. Once you have achieved this, you should not adjust the eyepiece at all, except to maintain proper focus as your vision changes over time <span style="font-style: italic">(it always does).</span> You may want to put a pen mark on the eyepiece indexed to the index dot on the scope tube - if the tube doesn't have an index mark use a pencil. That way, if someone else shoots your rifle and adjusts the Ocular you know where to return the adjustment to.

Now, because the Premier's parallax knob has no distance markings, unless you tape, paint, etch, or otherwise mark the parallax knob distances yourself you have no idea what distance the parallax is set to. This requires you to look through the scope and turn the knob to figure-out what direction you need to turn the knob. That is BS. I want to be able to glance at the parallax knob and know what is adjusted to. This in turn tells me what direction I need to turn the knob to in order to focus at the next distance and/or target.

The Premier's parallax knob also seems to have a slower, more fine adjustment range. While this sounds better, in use it actually slows down the focusing operation even more, which as mentioned above works against you.

The S & B has markings (albeit in meters) so I just dial the parallax knob close to the marked setting, peep through the scope and I'm usually right-on or close enough to fine tune within a couple of seconds. Done.

Another thing <span style="font-weight: bold">for me</span> - is the reticle. Despite the fact that the S & B 5-25X Gen 2 XR and the Premier 5-25X Gen 2 XR reticles have the same subtensions on paper, when you look through the scopes the reticles appear quite different. <span style="font-weight: bold">Disclaimer:</span> This is with the understanding that although scope tubes may have marked magnification settings, the scope more than likely has not been calibrated to that exact power. This makes the reticle comparison rather random.

The S & B Gen 2 XR reticle <span style="font-style: italic">appears</span> more fine, and as a result it will have less of a tendency to obscure the target. The smaller the target is the more important this small detail becomes. When you are looking at a 5" target at 1,000 yards you want a very fine reticle indeed. However, the S & B Gen 2 XR is a little less "black" than the Premier's Gen 2 XR reticle, and combined with the extra "fineness" could be an issue against dark backgrounds in daylight.

The Premier Gen 2 XR reticle is slightly more coarse, and appears "blacker". The slightly more coarse (thicker) reticle may not work as well for quartering small targets, but it would seem to be an asset overall, as the easier-to-see reticle is preferred by most people over a fine one. Especially for time-sensitive tactical matches.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Second question, when/if you like to shoot out to 800-1,000 yards do you like going with a higher or a lower magnification? Higher meaning 20+ lower meaning 10-16.

Thanks,
- Koshy </div></div>
I've shot out to a Swarovski LG30-ranged 1,080 yards. I prefer the PMII and Premier 5-25Xs' with the Gen 2 XR reticle because I tend to shoot at small targets, frequently estimated at 1/2 MOA or less. Mirage notwithstanding, the higher magnification and clarity of these high-end scopes allows more precise aiming by "quartering" the target.

Something else to keep in mind is that variable optics to tend to suffer from reduced clarity at their highest magnification settings. While this is less prevalent in higher-end scopes it still exists. Generally speaking, if you dial a Premier 3-15X to 15X and compare it to a Premier 5-25X set to 15X the 5-25X will have better clarity. The same is true of a PMII 4-16X at 16X when compared to a PMII 5-25X at "16X", which you have to "eyeball", as there is no "16X" setting on the 5-25X's tube.

Also, even when I am shooting at a paper bull or steel plate 8" in diameter, <span style="font-style: italic">I'm not really shooting at an 8" target</span> - I'm shooting/aiming at the spot where the reticle intersection (crosshair) lies. <span style="font-style: italic">Aim small, miss small</span>.

Keith </div></div>

Very helpful information, maybe PR will eventually adopt a parallax turret with some numbers listed :p

Also thank you for taking the time out to write all that up, I really appreciate it!

Thanks,
- Koshy
 
#33
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

Wow a lot of perspective , after all of this I would and will stick with the Premier due to the costs. the S&B's are adding up a lot more for me when wanting a CCW conversion and 4 scopes all the same .
Good luck with the decision.
Bill
 
#34
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why the CCW? To be different? Are you left handed so it's easier? There has got to be a reason you would drop $500 for changing the turret to CCW!</div></div>

I'd have to guess that it's because the norm here is CCW.
 
#35
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...Why the CCW? To be different? Are you left handed so it's easier? There has got to be a reason you would drop $500 for changing the turret to CCW!

Thanks,
- Koshy...
</div></div>
Ha-ha - <span style="font-style: italic">"to be different"</span>. Thats' a good one. There are people who pay for stuff just for the sake of being different, but I am not one of them. If I am paying extra for something you can be damn well sure its' for good reason.

In the case of the CCW conversion its' because after using scopes with CCW adjustments for more than 3 decades I'm "wired" for CCW, and I don't want to have to keep looking at the dials to be sure I'm turning the knobs in the correct direction.

<span style="font-style: italic">Example:</span> After mounting my new 5-25X Gen 2 XR <span style="font-style: italic">(with "European" CW adjustments)</span> I kept turning the adjustments CCW while trying to zero. On all of my other scopes, including my other PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR CCW is correct, but not with this scope. And I wouldn't realize my error until I fired and saw the POI. For a second I'd think <span style="font-style: italic">"WTF?"</span>, then a couple of seconds later it would be <span style="font-style: italic">"Oops"</span>.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...Very helpful information, maybe PR will eventually adopt a parallax turret with some numbers listed :p... </div></div>
Maybe, but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. <span style="font-style: italic">AFAIK,</span> placing reasonably accurate distance increments on parallax knobs would require calibration for the indicated distances on each scope. This added procedure would not only slow production but it would increase technical labor, more than likely raising scope prices. And cost-efficiency is one of the Premier's advantages.

Its' conceivable that Premier could offer a <span style="font-style: italic">"Parallax Knob Calibration & Engraving Option"</span>. That way, calibration and engraving would only be performed on specified scopes, production impact could be minimized through "batching", and the additional technical time would be borne by the requesting customer(s). The calibration could be in Yards or Meters. <span style="font-style: italic">Chris?</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...Also thank you for taking the time out to write all that up, I really appreciate it!

Thanks,
- Koshy </div></div>
You're welcome.

Keith
 
#36
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aries64</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...Why the CCW? To be different? Are you left handed so it's easier? There has got to be a reason you would drop $500 for changing the turret to CCW!

Thanks,
- Koshy...
</div></div>
Ha-ha - <span style="font-style: italic">"to be different"</span>. Thats' a good one. There are people who pay for stuff just for the sake of being different, but I am not one of them. If I am paying extra for something you can be damn well sure its' for good reason.

In the case of the CCW conversion its' because after using scopes with CCW adjustments for more than 3 decades I'm "wired" for CCW, and I don't want to have to keep looking at the dials to be sure I'm turning the knobs in the correct direction.

<span style="font-style: italic">Example:</span> After mounting my new 5-25X Gen 2 XR <span style="font-style: italic">(with "European" CW adjustments)</span> I kept turning the adjustments CCW while trying to zero. On all of my other scopes, including my other PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR CCW is correct, but not with this scope. And I wouldn't realize my error until I fired and saw the POI. For a second I'd think <span style="font-style: italic">"WTF?"</span>, then a couple of seconds later it would be <span style="font-style: italic">"Oops"</span>.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...Very helpful information, maybe PR will eventually adopt a parallax turret with some numbers listed :p... </div></div>
Maybe, but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. <span style="font-style: italic">AFAIK,</span> placing reasonably accurate distance increments on parallax knobs would require calibration for the indicated distances on each scope. This added procedure would not only slow production but it would increase technical labor, more than likely raising scope prices. And cost-efficiency is one of the Premier's advantages.

Its' conceivable that Premier could offer a <span style="font-style: italic">"Parallax Knob Calibration & Engraving Option"</span>. That way, calibration and engraving would only be performed on specified scopes, production impact could be minimized through "batching", and the additional technical time would be borne by the requesting customer(s). The calibration could be in Yards or Meters. <span style="font-style: italic">Chris?</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...Also thank you for taking the time out to write all that up, I really appreciate it!

Thanks,
- Koshy </div></div>
You're welcome.

Keith </div></div>

Haha, I hope I didn't offend you :p I was just trying to understand if there was a technical reason behind it. But I totally understand your reasoning, I'm sure having WTF moments would be annoying especially come competition time haha.

As for the Parallax option, I think that is a wonderful idea, a response from Chris would be awesome, and perhaps at some point I will give a call inquiring about it (and of course will share with all).

Thanks,
- Koshy
 
#37
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aries64</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...Why the CCW? To be different? Are you left handed so it's easier? There has got to be a reason you would drop $500 for changing the turret to CCW!

Thanks,
- Koshy...
</div></div>
Ha-ha - <span style="font-style: italic">"to be different"</span>. Thats' a good one. There are people who pay for stuff just for the sake of being different, but I am not one of them. If I am paying extra for something you can be damn well sure its' for good reason.

In the case of the CCW conversion its' because after using scopes with CCW adjustments for more than 3 decades I'm "wired" for CCW, and I don't want to have to keep looking at the dials to be sure I'm turning the knobs in the correct direction.

<span style="font-style: italic">Example:</span> After mounting my new 5-25X Gen 2 XR <span style="font-style: italic">(with "European" CW adjustments)</span> I kept turning the adjustments CCW while trying to zero. On all of my other scopes, including my other PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR CCW is correct, but not with this scope. And I wouldn't realize my error until I fired and saw the POI. For a second I'd think <span style="font-style: italic">"WTF?"</span>, then a couple of seconds later it would be <span style="font-style: italic">"Oops"</span>.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...Very helpful information, maybe PR will eventually adopt a parallax turret with some numbers listed :p... </div></div>
Maybe, but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. <span style="font-style: italic">AFAIK,</span> placing reasonably accurate distance increments on parallax knobs would require calibration for the indicated distances on each scope. This added procedure would not only slow production but it would increase technical labor, more than likely raising scope prices. And cost-efficiency is one of the Premier's advantages.

Its' conceivable that Premier could offer a <span style="font-style: italic">"Parallax Knob Calibration & Engraving Option"</span>. That way, calibration and engraving would only be performed on specified scopes, production impact could be minimized through "batching", and the additional technical time would be borne by the requesting customer(s). The calibration could be in Yards or Meters. <span style="font-style: italic">Chris?</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Koshy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...Also thank you for taking the time out to write all that up, I really appreciate it!

Thanks,
- Koshy </div></div>
You're welcome.

Keith </div></div>

Haha, I hope I didn't offend you :p I was just trying to understand if there was a technical reason behind it. But I totally understand your reasoning, I'm sure having WTF moments would be annoying especially come competition time haha.

As for the Parallax option, I think that is a wonderful idea, a response from Chris would be awesome, and perhaps at some point I will give a call inquiring about it (and of course will share with all).

Thanks,
- Koshy </div></div>
No offense taken Koshy. I never read anything into your <span style="font-style: italic">"...Why the CCW? To be different?"</span> inquiry as anything more than an honest question, which you now know the reason for. But to restate in different words - I've been using CCW scopes for so long CW scopes are counter-intuitive for me. Continuity of operation is a good thing.

I don't know if Chris would be receptive to my idea about a <span style="font-style: italic">"Parallax Knob Calibration & Engraving Option"</span> - it could even be something that Premier is considering or has considered and rejected.

I think I'll email Chris and see what he says, and update this post with any info I get from Chris.

Keith
 
#38
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

I spoke to Paul at PR and he said there will be a press on calibrated ring with distance markings available sometime in Feb.

As an aside and not in relation to PH directly I have a question about your method of using the parallax. If I'm ranging with a FFP scope at unknown distances, and lets say the different distances are large - several hundred yards - does the presence of parallax effect my accuracy of ranging? Suppose I had to do the ranging quickly and didn't have time for the precise method of parallax adjustment you have described.
 
#39
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I spoke to Paul at PR and he said there will be a press on calibrated ring with distance markings available sometime in Feb.</div></div>
I wonder if it will be the long-awaited, "more robust" version of this:

PremierSlipOnParallaxRing-1.jpg


The image above was posted by Chris Thomas (<span style="font-style: italic">aka <span style="font-weight: bold">Gen2mildot</span> here on the Hide'</span>) back on 4/17/09 in response to <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Hazardus'</span></span> inquiry about reference markers on the parallax knob. Here is <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Chris' original post</span></span>.

Then, about a month later (5/14/09) <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">al redneck</span></span> posted that Premier was <span style="font-style: italic">"designing a more robust unit and did not have any ready".</span> Below is <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">al redneck</span></span>'s post:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: al redneck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I heard back from Chris at PR. They are designing a more robust unit and do not have any ready. I hope they will post here when they are ready. If I hear when they are ready, I will let everyone know. If someone else hears, I would appreciate it if they post it here so everyone who wants them will know.

david </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As an aside and not in relation to PH directly I have a question about your method of using the parallax. If I'm ranging with a FFP scope at unknown distances, and lets say the different distances are large - several hundred yards - does the presence of parallax effect my accuracy of ranging? Suppose I had to do the ranging quickly and didn't have time for the precise method of parallax adjustment you have described.
</div></div>
Thats' really a question best answered by a scope engineer or other optics expert, of which I am neither. However, <span style="font-style: italic">it seems logical</span> that parallax error has little - if any, effect on range estimation. My reasoning is as follows:

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Parallax Error</span></span> occurs when the target image and the reticle do not fall on the same optical plane. According to data here, <span style="font-style: italic">at 100 yards a mis-alignment of just 2.2 mm will result in a parallax error at the target of sixty-three inches</span>. This is why proper scope-to-eye alignment is so critical.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Range estimation</span> using a scope's reticle is accomplished by bracketing a target or other object of roughly "known" dimensions between two points of measure on the reticle, then comparing those dimensions to a scale of sizes such as on a <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Mildot Master</span></span>.

In FFP scopes reticle subtensions remain proportional to the target regardless of whether or not the scope is set to be parallax-free at the actual target distance. Therefore, range estimation should be unaffected by parallax error.

But hey, like I said I'm not a scope engineer or other optics expert.

Keith
 
#40
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

Awesome, I hope they keep rolling with it...

You know they talk on their website about as a customer being able to change your own turrets... I wonder if this will fall under it... although as you said, each scope needs to have the parallax made for each individual scope...

Anyway I guess it is just more of the hurry up and wait
smile.gif


I hope they follow through and in a few months time if I feel like I really need marked Parallax I have the option of getting one
smile.gif


Thanks,
- Koshy
 
#41
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

Aries64 you say your not a scope engineer but you speak like one who has hands on experience designing and testing scopes, your insights are much appreciated, thank you.
 
#42
Re: S&B or Premier Reticle? Higher Mag or Lower Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aries64 you say your not a scope engineer but you speak like one who has hands on experience designing and testing scopes, your insights are much appreciated, thank you. </div></div>
Thanks for the complement, <span style="font-style: italic">427Cobra</span> (BTW, your handle's namesake was one of baddest-ass cars ever created!), but I'm just another guy.

Keith
 
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