Rifle Scopes S&B PM2 worth it?

[Ffjmoore]

A friend of mine swears by pm2 scopes a that's all he shoots. Has 3 of them. In the threads on here with people asking "which scope should I get" I rarely see the pm2 mentioned. Is there a reason? Is it not suited for this type of shooting as much as the others or is it that the price is too high and a cheaper scope gets the job done more than adequately?

Just curious.

 

[KeithR41]

Reticle choice. S&B makes one of the best precision rifle scopes on the market as far as optical quality and tracking. I’ve owned two of them and now own two Razor Gen II’s and an AMG for the reticle choices.

Keith

 

[db2000]

Reticle choice. S&B makes one of the best precision rifle scopes on the market as far as optical quality and tracking. I’ve owned two of them and now own two Razor Gen II’s and an AMG for the reticle choices.

Keith

I realize reticle choice is subjective but Tremor 3 is a killer tree style reticle and S&B have that option so...

 

[KeithR41]

Very true. But they really haven’t kept up overall with reticle upgrades like other companies have. Don’t get me wrong, I loved my S&B’s and would use them again in a flash. Both of mine were the P4F. I just like the Vortex reticles better.

 

[KeithR41]

Plus I was using them before their prices came down. Back then S&B was the top shit. Now you can two Gen II Razors for almost the same price as a PMII.

 

[Adam B]

The glass in the S&B is one of the best and now that you can get into them for around $2500 it is even better.

 

[Dr. Strangelove_207]

It's one of those things that's quite subjective. What's great glass to one person might look awful to someone else. Case in point - a mate of mine in TX doesn't rate Kahles glass at all (!) but I think it's amazing. Your mileage may vary! Definitely worth looking through them in person, if at all possible.

 

[RayDBonz]

Their GR2ID reticle looks promising as well.
Certainly top-notch glass.

 

[gulada97]

I had the 3-12 model, sold it. The build quality is great, everything is solid and quite heavy. I'm not a marksman by any means, and to be honest the glass didn't "look" any better than the one in a $1000 Vortex or Trijicon. But that's just me. Plus the 2yr warranty is a deal breaker for me. I'd rather invest in something else.

 

[ma smith]

There's alot of politics inovlved with S&B, which nobody ever mentions.

 

[Tchitcherine]

There's alot of politics inovlved with S&B, which nobody ever mentions.

Please elaborate, thanks.

 

[Ffjmoore]

Yah, I have never heard the politics of it. I'm not remotely a good enough shooter or competitor to justify that sort of money on a scope. But if he ever decides to part with one for cheap I wanted to know if it was worth my investment. I'll get to that price range eventually if I had to guess.

 

[1moaoff]

Great scopes... they were the gold standard for years... still great.

 

[Adam B]

At our last match we have a razor, amg, Cronus, atacr and a PM2 in a squad. The PM2 was by far the best glass.

 

[acudaowner]

my friend had one and it was really nice 5x45x56 with the tremmor 3 lots of hold overs all over the place . he paid a lot of money for it and i liked it just not at the price he paid , guess that's why he bought it not me . if you get one god bless you and may it make you happy for the money I can think of a few other scopes Id rather have that are way cheaper on the pocket but that's my opinion . hay they are below 6k now lol that sweet .
https://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/products/police-military-forces/5-45x56-pm-ii-high-power.html it was one of my if I ever hit the lottery items but Id most likely but 3 more of the delta's and never feel bad about it .

 

[CSTactical]

A friend of mine swears by pm2 scopes a that's all he shoots. Has 3 of them. In the threads on here with people asking "which scope should I get" I rarely see the pm2 mentioned. Is there a reason? Is it not suited for this type of shooting as much as the others or is it that the price is too high and a cheaper scope gets the job done more than adequately?

Just curious.

One huge reason is that their are so many choices that are equal to and/or possibly better out now for the same money with reticles that tend to be more desirable in the current times. Over ten years ago they didn't have the majority of competition they do now...

 

[W54/XM-388]

IF you don't need a fancy reticle and are good with the classic P4 or P4F you can often find the 5-25x56 selling used, in good condition around the $2500 mark and at that price it's one of the best values for the money.

In new, it's a bit close to the ZCO prices and a lot of folks will just pay the bit extra and go to a ZCO.

 

[Krob95]

I’ve had 4 of them and own one of them still. I only sold them so I could try out new things, mainly higher end glass. For the price you can get them on the hide, you’re not gonna beat them, especially if you don’t need the worlds most fanciest reticle.

 

[Maggot]

Very true. But they really haven’t kept up overall with reticle upgrades like other companies have. Don’t get me wrong, I loved my S&B’s and would use them again in a flash. Both of mine were the P4F. I just like the Vortex reticles better.

But the S&B glass is so much clearer. I have the Razor 2 and the difference is large.

 

[elmuzzlebreak]

My experience with the SB glass is good and the SB crew in VA are top notch guys. However from what I understand their glass system has not really changed since the PM2 line started. Vs a razor the best way I can describe it is like looking through a window vs looking through a high def filter with some colors popping more in the Razor. The Pm2 will have more parallax range while the PM2 will adjust to about 1Km. However the PM2 parallax will be a bit more finicky at higher magnifications. For the price of new PM2 5-25 (more so with horus reticles) you'd might as well go ZCO.

 

[Dthomas3523]

For the price they cost new? No.

For the price they sell used? Absolutely

 

[VargmatII]

Somewhat of an echo of what has allready been written.
The PM2 is a great scope with great feel of the controls and glass is stellar. However the price has gone crazy and with a lot of options these days, a PM2 might not be the number one choice anymore.

I had a 5-25x56 and liked it a lot. I did sell it after just over 2 years of use. I regret it sometimes, as I cant see myself paying what they cost nowdays. But then again, my Nightforce and Delta Stryker does not hold me back one bit.

 

[TRG65]

I have several PM2s and a T96 Polar. The T96 has a P4F reticle and the PM2s either have H59 or T3s. I got an S&B years ago and it was cheaper to upgrade the reticle than buy a new scope when I decided I wanted a Christmas tree. After that they multiplied. Watch the classifieds. It is not uncommon for the H59s or T3s to get down to mid-2Ks. I've had or looked though Leupy, Premier (bf they became TT), NF, and vortex. One day I took my NF out and couldn't figure out why it wouldn't focus, then I jumped over to my rifle that had my S&B and it focused right in. That's when I knew I had become spoiled. In good light, you won't notice much of a difference if you are just trying to shoot the target. If you want to see what's happening on the target, then you start seeing some difference. In low light, ie how long can you see enough to count antlers or see details, the S&B shines. The T96 beats the PM2 there. I would like to give a ZCO a low light test, but that's really the only brand that I think might convince me not to buy another S&B if I needed another scope for a primary rifle. For rifles that are only shot for fun, I run less expensive optics because they meet the need. But the family hunting/match/hybrid rifles and my primary match rifle have S&B.

 

[fdavidparker]

S&B pmii has has been a workhorse and was once considered an elite scope, but others (TT, Kahles, NF, Zco etc) surpassed them. Good scope = sure. Elite scope = nope.

 

[Bigrederic]

I started out with a Leupold Mark4 then I went to a Viper PST, after that I bought my first 2 PM2s... a rifle build or so ago I thought I would try a Razor G2 and it was a great scope, but it always was missing that PM2 glass... since then I have bought 2 more PM2s. All my PM2s have H59s, and they are amazing. I did buy a 7x35 ATACR recently and it is quite remarkable as well... it is a bit behind my PM2s, but on most days it isn't noticeable... I have been behind a PM2, ZCO, K624i and a G2 Razor all side by side... you realy cant go wrong with any of them honestly at the right price.

 

[Rocky59]

I also swear on the S&B PM2 and back then among the Gladiators of the top tier scope it was considered one of the best however scopes like the Vortex Hd gen 2 could be gotten for far less with comparable quality and Glass.

 

[Dragoon300]

I made the jump from a Vortex viper pst 6-24 to the PM2 5-45x56 with the Tremor 3. LOTS of money for me, and a huge change, but a very nice precision instrument. I wanted the very higher power, I like having it available when needed. I find the eye relief shortens at 45x more than I like so I must position the scope for the power range I use most, then adjust my position as necessary. I have it on a Desert Tech SRS, and figured I don't have to buy another scope and rifle when I change calibers which eases the pain on the wallet some. I really do like it overall, it works well for me.

 

[Night Vision Viking]

Their GR2ID reticle looks promising as well.
Certainly top-notch glass.

I have GR2ID on three of my S&Bs. For target shooting I think they work well.
I have MIL-LRR as well, but the center dot is tiny. Perfect for very long range.

MSR2 would be another choice.

I was never a fan of the Tremors, but I guess since the army use them people think they're great?

S&B has a great selection of turrets to suit what you need as well.

 

[Daniel-01]

I just got 3 of them, love them so far.

5-45 with LRR reticle and MT II turrets (loooove it, no tree though but fine as f* center lines)

3-27 with p4fl, nice although i wish i had gone with another LRR

1-8 dual cc for the HK MR556 - also in love, especially with the close quarter / red dot mode

Glass seems amazing on all 3. Had Nightforce so far. Havent shot the SBs enough to really give a qualified review but so far I think I will keep them. The feel on them is a lot nicer than the NF but thats personal preference.

 

[strikeeagle1]

The PMII is the most common in my stable.
The 5-25 with H59.
The 3-20 with Tremor2.
The 1.1-4 with CQB recticle + red dot.
The 1-8 dual CC with MDR-T6 + red dot.
All with locking turrets.

 

[Long Range 338]

YES

 

[Daniel-01]

YES

Sums it up

 

[Cuban Croc]

S&B PMII and my 2001 AW ... still my favorite combo.

 

[19Scout77]

Look thru any scope for 8-10 hours straight and see how your eyes feel. Then do it with an SB. The choice will be obvious.

 

[Guthwine]

What would be considered a good price for a PMII? In my area they go for €2400-2700 used. Rarely some are listed at €1900 but not surprisingly, those sell in the second they go online. But is €2400, for example, a no brainer buy?

 

[Dr. Strangelove_207]

What would be considered a good price for a PMII? In my area they go for €2400-2700 used. Rarely some are listed at €1900 but not surprisingly, those sell in the second they go online. But is €2400, for example, a no brainer buy?

I guess it depends which model, which reticle and what sort of condition it’s in!

 

[Guthwine]

Ah sorry I am talking about the 5-25 either the LP or LP/MTC/LT with the P4FL reticle in good condition. Most of them are safe queens and treated fairly well.

 

[W54/XM-388]

What would be considered a good price for a PMII? In my area they go for €2400-2700 used. Rarely some are listed at €1900 but not surprisingly, those sell in the second they go online. But is €2400, for example, a no brainer buy?

Ah sorry I am talking about the 5-25 either the LP or LP/MTC/LT with the P4FL reticle in good condition. Most of them are safe queens and treated fairly well.

On the site here, in the used market,
US$2500 in excellent condition seems to be about the sweet spot right now.
I've seen some "Well loved" ones in the US$1900 on occasion, but those you'd want to budget in about US$300 to send them to S&B for a full service.
Sometimes you see ones in the US$2200 range pop up.

In Europe a lot of things tend to be more expensive due to the smaller market so you'd have to compare locally what they go for.

 

[bab029]

I had a 4-16x42 that was optically the best scope I’ve ever used. Side by side with an early razor gen2, it was clearer and easier to use in low light with no question. That doesn’t matter at all in the typical competitions, but for an all-around optic it was outstanding.

Want to try a 3-12x50 next.

 

[NateSavannah]

SB PMII was king of the hill until ZCO and TT came along. Still great. But not as good as the other 2. I own all 3. Love my PMII 3-20. But its no ZCO 420. and TT, I mean if ya know, ya know.
Where SB PMII still has a place in my collection is in the fact theres alot of them out there. If you watch the used market between here, gunbroker, and a few other places you can snag a fantastic PMII for unbelievably cheap. Ive bought multiple 3-20s for 1500-1800 and they were like new. Ive bought a couple 5-25s south of 2k. At those prices they beat just about anything else you can find. at that price.
......now if I could just find someone looking to give away their dual cc at a steal.

 

[Dr. Strangelove_207]

SB PMII was king of the hill until ZCO and TT came along. Still great. But not as good as the other 2. I own all 3. Love my PMII 3-20. But its no ZCO 420. and TT, I mean if ya know, ya know.

There’s a fairly sharp price increase to jump into the ZCO range though. I’m not sure about TT but I imagine they’re fairly pricey too!

For a ‘budget’ top tier scope, I’d say PMIIs are still very good value for money.

 

[NateSavannah]

There’s a fairly sharp price increase to jump into the ZCO range though. I’m not sure about TT but I imagine they’re fairly pricey too!

For a ‘budget’ top tier scope, I’d say PMIIs are still very good value for money.

ha I added to my comment since you replied. Its relevant to your comment.
Sharp increase to zco is debateable and entirely dependent upon which pmii youre looking at. especially if youre looking at a new pmii.
as for TT their 525 goes for around 5k new.

 

[Dr. Strangelove_207]

ha I added to my comment since you replied. Its relevant to your comment.
Sharp increase to zco is debateable and entirely dependent upon which pmii youre looking at. especially if youre looking at a new pmii.
as for TT their 525 goes for around 5k new.

Ah yeah, I’ve seen it now. I guess probably not worth getting a new PMII vs a new ZCO (not that I have experience of the latter) but used PMIIs are still great scopes!

I like Kahles though - I find their glass slightly clearer than PMIIs.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Ah yeah, I’ve seen it now. I guess probably not worth getting a new PMII vs a new ZCO (not that I have experience of the latter) but used PMIIs are still great scopes!

That seems to be a fairly general consensus these days, specifically in regards to the 5-25x56 class of scopes from both brands.

 

[Chickentoast]

I'm in the same boat. Current consideration set spans a range of prices:
Cronus 1.2K (sale)
Razor G2 EBR-7C for 1.6K, or maybe H59 for 2K (sale)
PM2 5-25 LRR Mil for 3K (sale)
ZCO 5-27 for 3.8K
PM2 5-45 LRR Mil for 4K (sale)
March 4.5-28 for 4.2K

To try and see some $ relative quality differences, I set up 3 scopes looking at the top of a hill 2700 yards away. A Trijicon 5-50 (Japan, same as Delta Stryker), Bushnell ERS 6-24 (Japan), and an Athlon Midas BTR (China glass, same as old Ares BTR). Set them all up at 24X, and started going back and forth to see differences, and ultimately to justify spending more money. Finally, I optimized each scope for a spot on the hill about 1300 yards away.

While the Trijicon ultimately provided the best image, it wasn't by much, the parallax is difficult, and it takes some time to get it there. The Bushnell was almost as clear, albeit a bit darker, but also much easier with parallax. The poor little Athlon with the garbage Chinese glass was barely a step behind the other 2. I would have no problem putting the reticle on a coke can at 1300 yards, or a basketball at 2700 yards. The eyebox is more finicky, but the parallax was not, and I could probably get its best picture faster at an unknown range than with the Trijicon. The Bushnell split the difference, but has a very thick reticle (G2 FFP), much less usable at longer ranges.

So, the conclusion was just more confusion. I want easy parallax, good eyebox, and amazing glass. Reticle, I love the thin lines and dot of the S&B LRR, but do like a Xmas tree so that dialing isn't always required, and not such a detailed grid that it obscures the sight picture. The Trijicon clarity degrades quickly at the higher mag ranges - 35X or so is about max before it degrades, and 24X was fine for hitting even at the 2700 yard mark. So, I'm leaning PM2 5-25 as I'm afraid that the higher mag ranges even in their 5-45 will be less usable, and potentially unnecessary.

Any more relevant experiences to add would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Dthomas3523]

You’re shooting in pretty ideal conditions if you’re easily seeing a coke can at 1300.

That’s where more expensive optics come in. When the poor lighting or heavy mirage rolls in, you can still work at distance.

I’ve been at matches where a target is set pretty far back in the shadows. Guys with cheaper optics claim they can’t see the target. I see it fine with my optics. I’ve looked through their optics and it’s actually very hard or impossible to see.

 

[bab029]

Agree that top quality glass is hard to justify until the mirage sets in. Cant see it, can’t shoot it.

 

[Chickentoast]

You’re shooting in pretty ideal conditions if you’re easily seeing a coke can at 1300.

That’s where more expensive optics come in. When the poor lighting or heavy mirage rolls in, you can still work at distance.

I’ve been at matches where a target is set pretty far back in the shadows. Guys with cheaper optics claim they can’t see the target. I see it fine with my optics. I’ve looked through their optics and it’s actually very hard or impossible to see.

Yes, I don't compete, so I generally only go when weather is cooperating, and the hill described in my "test" is seen from my living room. Maybe the best way is to order a few and return all but the winning scope. I'd rather not handle something if I don't intend to keep it, but it's tough to decide without looking through them. Would love to see optical differences between the PM2's 5-25 and 5-45 as well, to see if there is any difference at 25X, and to see if the clarity holds better than my Trijicon above 25X. I can now see how one ends up with 10 rifles and 15 scopes after being in it for a while.

 

[Dr. Strangelove_207]

I can now see how one ends up with 10 rifles and 15 scopes after being in it for a while.

If you get there you'll need to buy five more rifles!

 

[Chickentoast]

So, Opticsplanet has some March 5-42's left... for 3.8K. To get the turrets and ret I want in the PM2 5-45 it's 5.5K. So, it's now PM2 5-25 for ~3K or the March 5-42 for 3.8K in the upper tier. Or a LOW scope for <half...