Night Vision Safran vs L3 COTI - Educate Me

[NHPiper]

Are there any big differences between the units? Or is it actually the same unit/performance, Safran just won the contract to do the supplying?

The price on europtic had me tempted...but I have seen the L3 Units go for less.

 

[deersniper]

Pretty sure L3s that are out there are just prototypes and there is no warranty or parts or service available.

 

[TheHorta]

They both suck. L3 sucks more.

I say "suck" in a qualified sense. I know I've been a bit harsh on the COTI, and if you've never used fusion, the O1 COTI is cool as hell. It fills a void, rather poorly, but it's like Gen2 NV when it first came out. Today we look back and scoff, but when it was the latest and greatest it was The Tits. Same thing with the COTI.

 

[NHPiper]

They both suck. L3 sucks more.

I say "suck" in a qualified sense. I know I've been a bit harsh on the COTI, and if you've never used fusion, the O1 COTI is cool as hell. It fills a void, rather poorly, but it's like Gen2 NV when it first came out. Today we look back and scoff, but when it was the latest and greatest it was The Tits. Same thing with the COTI.

think the ECOTI will end up public soon?

 

[TheHorta]

think the ECOTI will end up public soon?

It already has been made available to the public. I have one as do a number of other guys I know. Unfortunately, Safran got a big .GOV order and all production was locked-up to fill that contract, which slammed the door on .CIV orders like a triphammer. Once the contract(s) are filled, Safran will make units available to the general public once again. If we're lucky, Safran will have a nice number of contract overruns and we'll all party like a bunch of hooligans on moonshine.

 

[NHPiper]

It already has been made available to the public. I have one as do a number of other guys I know. Unfortunately, Safran got a big .GOV order and all production was locked-up to fill that contract, which slammed the door on .CIV orders like a triphammer. Once the contract(s) are filled, Safran will make units available to the general public once again. If we're lucky, Safran will have a nice number of contract overruns and we'll all party like a bunch of hooligans on moonshine.

good to know. Do you feel the same way about the ECOTI as the COTI?

 

[TheHorta]

good to know. Do you feel the same way about the ECOTI as the COTI?

The eCOTI is a LOT more capable **IF** you can capitalize on the Augmented Reality capabilities it has. Since .CIV users generally don’t have access to AR, and really wouldn’t benefit from it for the most part, the eCOTI is less of a step up from the 29A (or COTI) than one might imagine. Sure, it’s a nice jump, but it’s not revolutionary.

 

[deersniper]

It already has been made available to the public. I have one as do a number of other guys I know. Unfortunately, Safran got a big .GOV order and all production was locked-up to fill that contract, which slammed the door on .CIV orders like a triphammer. Once the contract(s) are filled, Safran will make units available to the general public once again. If we're lucky, Safran will have a nice number of contract overruns and we'll all party like a bunch of hooligans on moonshine.

How much $$$ and why do you like it more than a regular Coti?

 

[TheHorta]

How much $$$ and why do you like it more than a regular Coti?

It’s smaller, lighter, and uses a 640px sensor. That said, since it’s still a circular image (unlike “real” fusion that uses a rectangular screen and can take advantage of the full sensor area) it is stuck using the smallest dimension (480px).

That said, that’s 400% greater resolution AND the eCOTI is 60Hz, which is a big deal. It also has cool features, like the aforementioned HUD and other stuff that are less useful to average Joes.

It’s a nice, solid evolutionary upgrade over the COTI, but I’d still take a Skeet (ignoring price) over an eCOTI hands-down 99 out of 100 times.

 

[NHPiper]

It’s smaller, lighter, and uses a 640px sensor. That said, since it’s still a circular image (unlike “real” fusion that uses a rectangular screen and can take advantage of the full sensor area) it is stuck using the smallest dimension (480px).

That said, that’s 400% greater resolution AND the eCOTI is 60Hz, which is a big deal. It also has cool features, like the aforementioned HUD and other stuff that are less useful to average Joes.

It’s a nice, solid evolutionary upgrade over the COTI, but I’d still take a Skeet (ignoring price) over an eCOTI hands-down 99 out of 100 times.

what are you guys thinking for a street price when ecoti’s hit the market again?

 

[Lowdown3]

Talking with Safran at Shot Show in January they confirmed the E Coti they do not sell to civilians, would not even discuss it. This was with "the Captain" there from Safran/Optics 1.

It's like that old saying "make a wish or crap in your hand, see which one gets filled first. " LOL

Hell at times that company hasn't sold the COTI to civilians over the last decade.

 

[NHPiper]

Talking with Safran at Shot Show in January they confirmed the E Coti they do not sell to civilians, would not even discuss it. This was with "the Captain" there from Safran/Optics 1.

It's like that old saying "make a wish or crap in your hand, see which one gets filled first. " LOL

Hell at times that company hasn't sold the COTI to civilians over the last decade.

gray market buy then?

 

[TheHorta]

Talking with Safran at Shot Show in January they confirmed the E Coti they do not sell to civilians, would not even discuss it. This was with "the Captain" there from Safran/Optics 1.

It's like that old saying "make a wish or crap in your hand, see which one gets filled first. " LOL

Hell at times that company hasn't sold the COTI to civilians over the last decade.

But Safran DID sell the eCOTI to Civs. They stopped, reportedly due to contract(s).

Did they mention if it was a contract thing, or other?

And yes, the PAS-29 was also restricted at one time.

 

[NHPiper]

But Safran DID sell the eCOTI to Civs. They stopped, reportedly due to contract(s).

Did they mention if it was a contract thing, or other?

And yes, the PAS-29 was also restricted at one time.

Sounds like I need to convince one of you guys to let go of your ECOTI

 

[SkyScrapin]

What did the ecoti MSRP for and what was street price? I need something to laugh at.

 

[Lowdown3]

@TheHorta All I know is I asked about it (ECOTI) and was it ever going to be sold to civilians and was given a very firm no.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Sounds like I need to convince one of you guys to let go of your ECOTI

From the reports I have read on the guys that have used both, I think the Pas 29 is really a better unit for most people. It has the more user friendly controls and actual performance in Outline is pretty much the same and I would suspect all the "real time" stuff that can link up with the Boss via Satellites is likely prone to more electronic failure, plus whomever can track you.

So I will stick with the plain COTI, YMMV.

 

[TheHorta]

The eCOTI, while it was sold/available to the general public, was just north of $7K.

 

[TheGerman]

Sounds like I need to convince one of you guys to let go of your ECOTI

Give it time.

Eventually there will be some around even though they are in some form 'restricted'. Unless its illegal to own, itll find a way with time.

PEQ15s are also 'restricted' yet theres people who have enough for an entire platoon.

 

[WhereNow&How]

The eCOTI, while it was sold/available to the general public, was just north of $7K.

Hecque, my Apple IPotato govi tracking device only cost me about $600.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

The eCOTI, while it was sold/available to the general public, was just north of $7K.

Yes, confirmed even though you were thought to beleive these were never allowed to be sold, we were the company that were allowed to sell a handful of them at that time. No and we didn't just drop ship them through another dealer, we are a vetted distributor of Safran.

 

[WhereNow&How]

No and we didn't just drop ship them through another dealer, we are a vetted distributor of Safran.

I have noticed that TNVC has removed the Pas 29 A COTI from its listing on its website in the last couple weeks. I would have thought as a "vetted distributor" you would still be selling them.

So "waz up" with these "drop shippers" selling them with current 1 year warranty dates from the Manufacturer and TNVC no longer selling them.

I would have thought TNVC as a vetted distributor would be still selling them as well.

Edit: I added the A.

 

[TheHorta]

I have noticed that TNVC has removed the Pas 29 COTI from its listing on its website in the last couple weeks. I would have thought as a "vetted distributor" you would still be selling them.

So "waz up" with these "drop shippers" selling them with current 1 year warranty dates from the Manufacturer and TNVC no longer selling them.

I would have thought TNVC as a vetted distributor would be still selling them as well.

I don't think TNVC has sold the original COTI / 29 in quite a while. I think they sold the newer 29A variant, which is different than the ones being dumped by Safran in the $3K deal. I heard a rumor the 29A is going EOL or has gone EOL. Regardless, dumping 700 of the older 29's on the cheap has likely torpedoed any market for the more expensive 29A.

Just my guess.

 

[WhereNow&How]

No and we didn't just drop ship them through another dealer, we are a vetted distributor of Safran.

The reason I ask is back on May 5th, when Augee was going a few rounds with me on the debate table, he made some pretty bold statements, that don't seem to be ringing correct nor factual per recent events with the sale of these Pas 29A COTI's and warranties that come with them that are sold through other dealers.

Per what Augee said back then, he was leading us to believe that: "As for warranty, it’s kind of moot, because the only COTIs that still have active manufacturer’s warranties are the new ones that we sell, TACS-M or third-party sourced PAS-29As are pretty much all out of the manufacturer’s warranty period, and one of the reasons Optics1 has been and is so reluctant to deal commercial direct is because they don’t want to deal with individual customer warranty issues and the headaches that come with it."

"Which means that if you have a warranty issue, it will likely filter directly through me personally, because I manage the COTI program for TNVC, and in many cases am essentially the only person who manages commercial support for these products."

Night Vision - Collimating dual pvs14

Pulled the trigger on 2x pvs14’s in a tnvc npm bridge. It’s actually not bad but they certainly are not 31’s. I actually prefer them over 15’s because they articulate more and less clumsily. anyways, is there a way I can collimate these? Or at least check collimation myself? Reading two...

www.snipershide.com

May 5, 2020

@WhereNow&How

"We are a direct distributor for Optics1 and I personally spent over eighteen months setting up direct commercial sales of new production AN/PAS-29As to the commercial market with manufacturer’s support and product warranties."


"The point is that I’m not talking about Optics1 or the COTI in a vacuum based only on the operator’s manual, and whether you realize it or not, am one of the primary drivers of the recent resurgence in popularity and information of COTI-type devices, a product that has been around frankly for about a decade now, but that has not been particularly well known."

"I’ve sat in meetings with program managers for the COTI and E-COTI among other products as well as other executives with the PBM, and here’s a little bit of inside dope that we haven’t discussed a whole lot—the NPBM would not exist if it hadn’t been for Optics1, they requested it for one of their customers based on the PBM-A which we had showed them, which gave us a reason to develop a non-powered version, previously my opinion had been that there were enough non-powered bridges available on the market that there was no reason for us to make one."


"As for warranty, it’s kind of moot, because the only COTIs that still have active manufacturer’s warranties are the new ones that we sell, TACS-M or third-party sourced PAS-29As are pretty much all out of the manufacturer’s warranty period, and one of the reasons Optics1 has been and is so reluctant to deal commercial direct is because they don’t want to deal with individual customer warranty issues and the headaches that come with it."

"Which means that if you have a warranty issue, it will likely filter directly through me personally, because I manage the COTI program for TNVC, and in many cases am essentially the only person who manages commercial support for these products."

"Believe me or don’t, since all you’ve got is my word, which it feels like you’re not inclined to want to believe. It is what it is, can’t win ‘em all."

~Augee

 

[WhereNow&How]

I don't think TNVC has sold the original COTI / 29 in quite a while. I think they sold the newer 29A variant, which is different than the ones being dumped by Safran in the $3K deal. I heard a rumor the 29A is going EOL or has gone EOL. Regardless, dumping 700 of the older 29's on the cheap has likely torpedoed any market for the more expensive 29A.

Just my guess.

TNVC does not have the 29A's listed anymore. The only thing TNVC has listed COTI wise now is the eCOTI.

I think the units currently being sold are 29A's. Not a 100% sure but pretty sure they are in fact 29A's

 

[Choid]

TNVC does not have the 29A's listed anymore. The only thing TNVC has listed COTI wise now is the eCOTI.

I think the units currently being sold are 29A's. Not a 100% sure but pretty sure they are in fact 29A's

Pretty sure as well.

 

[TheHorta]

TNVC does not have the 29A's listed anymore. The only thing TNVC has listed COTI wise now is the eCOTI.

I think the units currently being sold are 29A's. Not a 100% sure but pretty sure they are in fact 29A's

Do you mean the bulk $3K units being dumped now are 29A's?

 

[WhereNow&How]

Do you mean the bulk $3K units being dumped now are 29A's?

I think so. Not a 100% yet, but should find out for 100% soon.

 

[Choid]

The ones being sold now have the expanded menus and my old 29 back up battery won't work on it.

 

[WhereNow&How]

The ones being sold now have the expanded menus and my old 29 back up battery won't work on it.

So I think you are confirming that these are in fact Pas 29A COTI's. Am I interpreting that correctly.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

I have noticed that TNVC has removed the Pas 29 COTI from its listing on its website in the last couple weeks. I would have thought as a "vetted distributor" you would still be selling them.

So "waz up" with these "drop shippers" selling them with current 1 year warranty dates from the Manufacturer and TNVC no longer selling them.

I would have thought TNVC as a vetted distributor would be still selling them as well.

Simple, we were offered 700 of these units to sell before anyone else, but we also found out they were being discontinued with NO support after 1 year so we declined the offer. EuroOptic was offered the deal and purchased the whole lot. We were just not comfortable selling a product that was now being discontinued and no manufactures support after 1 year for our customer base. Still a great optic and a GREAT price, and EuroOptic will sell a good number of these units.

 

[Choid]

So I think you are confirming that these are in fact Pas 29A COTI's. Am I interpreting that correctly.

I don't have enough deep knowledge to confirm, but the p/n matches what I have seen as 29A, and my old 2 prong battery backup doesn't work on the new ones. It is not marked with a NSN number or an AN/PAS marking.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I don't have enough deep knowledge to confirm, but the p/n matches what I have seen as 29A, and my old 2 prong battery backup doesn't work on the new ones. It is not marked with a NSN number or an AN/PAS marking.

Thank You Sir for that information. Especially about the older 2 prong battery backup.

How many prongs does the correct back up battery cable have that works with these newer units. Also, if you have one of those can you furnish a photo.

 

[Choid]

Thank You Sir for that information. Especially about the older 2 prong battery backup.

How many prongs does the correct back up battery cable have that works with these newer units. Also, if you have one of those can you furnish a photo.

Dunno, I don't have a battery backup that works on this one. Maybe I am a doofus and just can't get it to fit in the right hole. Has happened to me in other circumstances.

That said, there are four connection dots on the new Eurooptic coti, and the instructions call for pressing on a latch release on the battery backup, which my old 29 doessn't have.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Simple, we were offered 700 of these units to sell before anyone else, but we also found out they were being discontinued with NO support after 1 year so we declined the offer.

Well, I have several of the older TACS M's and also my buddies have the newer Pas 29A's and especially my TACS M's have been run pretty hard and we have had zero problems with them so I am not worried about them holding up long term. A 1 year warranty with these are actually a BONUS POINT. 9 times out of 10 an electronic device problem will show up pretty quickly in use.

All that being said, at the current price for these Pas 29A units I will buy them all day long. Heck of a deal for a great performing unit.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Dunno, I don't have a battery backup that works on this one. Maybe I am a doofus and just can't get it to fit in the right hole. Has happened to me in other circumstances.

That said, there are four connection dots on the new Eurooptic coti, and the instructions call for pressing on a latch release on the battery backup, which my old 29 doessn't have.

Excellent information. Much appreciated.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Well, I have several of the older TACS M's and also my buddies have the newer Pas 29A's and especially my TACS M's have been run pretty hard and we have had zero problems with them so I am not worried about them holding up long term. A 1 year warranty with these are actually a BONUS POINT. 9 times out of 10 an electronic device problem will show up pretty quickly in use.

All that being said, at the current price for these Pas 29A units I will buy them all day long. Heck of a deal for a great performing unit.

Yep, great price. Our decision as I indicated was made what our customers want, and no support after 1 year was not something we wanted to risk even if a small % went down. We really try to go the extra mile with support after all our sales and this was not something we wanted to risk and it was MY decision not to purchase the lot. Either way, I'll say it again, great price.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Do you mean the bulk $3K units being dumped now are 29A's?

Horta, have mercy on us POORS and don't buy em all up. Let us get a few.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

I'll just leave this here. They said it couldn't be done... and would never be sold to civilians.

Thanks to all whom have ordered, the response nearly crashed the TNVC web site earlier today! Stand by though, vSHOTT is right around the corner and the rest of our BF sales will be listed tonight or tomorrow.